My Biggest issue is trying to tie in some of the PP found in the books.
Firstborn of Moradin and some of the other racial paths don't seem to fit with the races role, or other factors of their history (there being no god of dwarves).
Most of the PH pps are general enough to allow with little problem. Although what roles do angels play in the faiths of eberron.
The primal paragon paths and some of the epic destinies, outside of the barbarian seem really hard to fit with the various druid sects. Verdant Lord works really well for Wardens of the Wardens sect. But some of the others are harder to place, and all of the Shaman ones are very hard to reconcile for me. As are a number of the Druid ones. Should these be left open as available to all sects, or just represent unattached primal characters?
I was wondering if anyone else was having these issues, or how you placed them?
Draconic Sorcerers: It's usually not well received when the mortal races tap the power of dragon, even worshiping their same religion can cause nasty consequences. So how do the dragons feel about sorcerers taping their power.
Draconic blood was the original explanation for sorcerous power in 3E and wasn't a problem. The 3.5 ECS described sorcerers in Eberron drawing their power from the cosmic dragons rather than the material dragons. I see no reason why that can't still work.
Firstborn of Moradin and some of the other racial paths don't seem to fit with the races role, or other factors of their history (there being no god of dwarves).
While the flavor is all about Moradin, the class features really have nothing to do with the god. This could easily be reskinned as a Kundarak class. It might also be a class for every other dwarf clan. The clans were long engaged in a civil war. Maybe Moradin is the name of the legendary explorer who led dwarves from the Frostfell, and would-be dwarven conquerors invoke him, claiming to be of his lineage.
Although what roles do angels play in the faiths of eberron.
I think they can do the same job as in other settings. Here's the fluff on angels from the MM:
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Angels exist as expressions of the Astral Sea, sentient energy in humanoid form. They most often serve the gods, so some believe that the gods created them. In reality, angels are powerful astral beings who appeared during the first moments of the creation of the Astral Sea. Different types of angels have different callings; they are literally manifestations of celestial vocations. Perhaps it was the needs of the gods that caused the astral stuff to spew them forth, but it was not a conscious act of creation. During the great war between the gods and the primordials, angels offered themselves as warriors to the gods that best encompassed their callings, and today they continue to act as mercenary forces for anyone willing to meet their price—be it wealth, or power, or a cause worthy of their attention.
The base primal classes are great fits, its the PP (world serpent disciple or whatever, and the blood rager druids and such) that I'm having problems with. Some I can make fit others I have problems seeing.
Although what roles do angels play in the faiths of eberron.
I'm running my Eberron a bit closer to 3.5 Eberron. To me the angels are from Syriana. Look at the Radiant Idols in Sharn: City of Towers to see what happens to those cast out.
While the flavor is all about Moradin, the class features really have nothing to do with the god. This could easily be reskinned as a Kundarak class. It might also be a class for every other dwarf clan. The clans were long engaged in a civil war. Maybe Moradin is the name of the legendary explorer who led dwarves from the Frostfell, and would-be dwarven conquerors invoke him, claiming to be of his lineage.
It will be my approach as well. Where the fluff isn't key to the class abilities, the fluff is completely mutable.
Maybe it's time for a "fluff these 4E paragon paths for Eberron" thread. Perhaps take it one book at a time.
As for the paragon paths, here is my list of 'em translated for Eberron:
Ancestral Incarnate: I think the elves of Aerenal and Valenar should be able to take this class, as they revere/worship their ancestors.
Firstborn of Moradin: Easy squeezy. = Firstborn of Onatar
Scion of Arkhosia: Argonnessen instead of Ark
Turathi Highborn: You can rename the class to be from the ancient lineage of tiefling sorcerers of Sarlona or from the Demon Wastes.
Student of the Seven: Arcanix?
Blood Moon Stalker: shifter druids?
Guardian of the Living Gate: allies of the Mystagogues or keepers of Khyber?
Keeper of the Hidden Flame: druid sect who draw power from couatls
Angelic Aspect: Sovereign Aspect? replace "angelic" words with "sovereign" :P
Blightspeaker: priests of the Fury (divine madness)
Disciple of the World Serpent: "... Feathered Serpent"
Ghost Panther: perfect for the Children of Winter sect
The Great Bear Shaman: shifter shamans channeling their Mother Bear ancestor/animal spirit
Spirit Tempest: Mask Weavers (druids of Talenta)
Bloodwrath Guardian: Ashbound sect
Horned Champion: Greensingers? There are many fey lords and creatures with stag like horns. :D
Storm Sentinel: wardens of Adar's stormy peaks? followers of the Devourer?
~Personally, I see no problems finding niches for the PP's and EDs from Core books in Eberron.
Glorious Spirit: guardian spirit warrior for Valenar. it was also mentioned that they believe their horses are actual reincarnations of past heroes.
Primal Avatar: Oalian. nuff said
Revered One: Tashana (missing leader of the rebel quori/kalashtar); Path of Light
There are/were some dragons who did shared their power and knowledge, especially in Khorvaire's history. If they didn't, where else could the dragon prophets have come from? Also, didn't Vvaraak teach the Gatekeepers their traditions and such? There is also Rhashaak who mixed his very own blood with the locals of Q'barra (lizardfolk, kobolds, etc).
As for the paragon paths, here is my list of 'em translated for Eberron:
Ancestral Incarnate: I think the elves of Aerenal and Valenar should be able to take this class, as they revere/worship their ancestors.
Firstborn of Moradin: Easy squeezy. = Firstborn of Onatar
Scion of Arkhosia: Argonnessen instead of Ark
Turathi Highborn: You can rename the class to be from the ancient lineage of tiefling sorcerers of Sarlona or from the Demon Wastes.
Student of the Seven: Arcanix?
Blood Moon Stalker: shifter druids?
Guardian of the Living Gate: allies of the Mystagogues or keepers of Khyber?
Keeper of the Hidden Flame: druid sect who draw power from couatls
Angelic Aspect: Sovereign Aspect? replace "angelic" words with "sovereign" :P
Blightspeaker: priests of the Fury (divine madness)
Disciple of the World Serpent: "... Feathered Serpent"
Ghost Panther: perfect for the Children of Winter sect
The Great Bear Shaman: shifter shamans channeling their Mother Bear ancestor/animal spirit
Spirit Tempest: Mask Weavers (druids of Talenta)
Bloodwrath Guardian: Ashbound sect
Horned Champion: Greensingers? There are many fey lords and creatures with stag like horns. :D
Storm Sentinel: wardens of Adar's stormy peaks? followers of the Devourer?
~Personally, I see no problems finding niches for the PP's and EDs from Core books in Eberron.
Glorious Spirit: guardian spirit warrior for Valenar. it was also mentioned that they believe their horses are actual reincarnations of past heroes.
Primal Avatar: Oalian. nuff said
Revered One: Tashana (missing leader of the rebel quori/kalashtar); Path of Light
Yes some dragons have, but most guard it, but I had forgoten the sorcer fluff from 3.5 and how it was dealt with.
Onatar is not a direct port of Moradain, they are very different dieties.
Some of your ideas are good, others are not. I like your suggestion for the world serpent (or maybe the world serpent is another name for the progenitor Eberron)
I personally use the Storm Sentinel as a member of Children of Winter.
More are making sense to me, some I will not use, instead directing players to others (I have found some suprisingly good port overs from the FR guide)
fluff these 4E paragon paths for Eberron
I'm for it. We did it all the time in 3.5.
Draconic Sorcerers: It's usually not well received when the mortal races tap the power of dragon, even worshiping their same religion can cause nasty consequences. So how do the dragons feel about sorcerers taping their power. Atleast they say in PH2 that the dragons may not remember they are the ones who created that power(hard to believe with how obsessively some of the keeps records). Minor gripe over all, I say the prophecy called for the mortal races to find the power, but does anyone have better ideas.
The way I have envisioned the Spell Sources:
Cosmic Sorcerers have some form of connection to Siberys. They are usually astrologers at some point, and would very likely be concerned with the prophecy as a whole.
Dragon sorcerers have a deep connection with Eberron. They are very likely the most worldly, and concerned with how social groups [or other terrestrial based things] are affected by [And ho they effect] the prophecy.
Wild sorcerers are connected to Khyber and probably suffer from some kind of madness based on their magic [Perhaps having been in a Khyber cult]. They are probably most concerned with using the prophecy to help awaken Khyber and allowing him to escape Eberron [Metaphoric, of course; they could just mean they want more fiends or aberrations on the surface.]. Of course, a kinder version would be one intent on manipulating the prophecy to avoid such a fate.
Storm sorcerers are probably connected to Syberys, and Eberron and staunch opponents to all things Khyber based. Or in one character I want to play powers granted to a Lyrandar heir with a Siberys mark.
In all instances, I mean in metaphor [Depending on the beliefs of the character, any way.] I like this as it gives each source a connection to a progenitor wyrm, as well as an easy way to study the prophecy.
As an example, one of my character concepts is a dragonmarked heir of House Sivis who spent his time studying The Prophecy, watching for portents in the sky, and trying to get into discussions with the dragons of Argonessen. After several years of this, he began to manipulate the world around him with his knowledge of the prophecy as well as arcane formulas he has acquired during his life. He feels that his mark has labeled him as a component of the prophecy. Basically this character is a Gnome Cosmic sorcerer with a Sivis mark [and an excuse to have a 16 STR gnome.]
The primal paragon paths and some of the epic destinies, outside of the barbarian seem really hard to fit with the various druid sects. Verdant Lord works really well for Wardens of the Wardens sect. But some of the others are harder to place, and all of the Shaman ones are very hard to reconcile for me. As are a number of the Druid ones. Should these be left open as available to all sects, or just represent unattached primal characters?
I prefer to view this on a case by case basis. for example, Guardian of The Living Gate makes a wonderful PP for a gatekeeper. That one panther PP for Shamans sounds cool for a Child of Winter, the Great Bear makes an excellent idea for a Warden or Gatekeeper as they are defensive minded, the spirit tempest is a good catch all [But feels very good for an Ashbound], and the serpent one fits almost all of the known sect. Again, I prefer to do it case-by-case.
For example, if I had a PC druid who wanted to be a Bloodmoon stalker, I would retool the PP's flavour to be more inline with the PC's mindset, and affiliations.
Yes some dragons have, but most guard it, but I had forgoten the sorcer fluff from 3.5 and how it was dealt with.
Onatar is not a direct port of Moradain, they are very different dieties.
Some of your ideas are good, others are not. I like your suggestion for the world serpent (or maybe the world serpent is another name for the progenitor Eberron)
I personally use the Storm Sentinel as a member of Children of Winter.
I don't see how Moradin is that much different from Onatar. Both are gods of the forge and worshipped by dwarves. In the ECG, Onatar is one of the three Sovereign gods the Mror dwarves worship. And you have to keep in mind that as every other race in Eberron, the dwarves are not ur typical Core/FR dwarves. The dwarves of the Mror Holds are reclusive and miserly, much more in line with Tolkien's dwarves. They "dig ever deeper in search of wealth" and have a long and bloody history of fighting each other. This is a far cry from the Moradin worshipping dwarves that just drink ale and build for the love of building. That's just my opinion though, so w/e.
I forgot about Eberron being the Dragon In Between. Yeah, that works for the World Serpent as well.
And honestly, I don't see what the big hub-bub is over dragon sorcerers "tapping into the dragons' power". It's not like sorcerers are siphoning energy from the dragons themselves. They could care less about lesser mortals unless they try to mess with their Prophecy. Sarlona had a BIG history of human sorcerers ruling empires before civil wars ended their reign. I am willing to bet that they had all manner of power sources the sorcs were using, including draconic.
I don't see how Moradin is that much different from Onatar. Both are gods of the forge and worshipped by dwarves. In the ECG, Onatar is one of the three Sovereign gods the Mror dwarves worship. And you have to keep in mind that as every other race in Eberron, the dwarves are not ur typical Core/FR dwarves. The dwarves of the Mror Holds are reclusive and miserly, much more in line with Tolkien's dwarves. They "dig ever deeper in search of wealth" and have a long and bloody history of fighting each other. This is a far cry from the Moradin worshipping dwarves that just drink ale and build for the love of building. That's just my opinion though, so w/e.
The sorc thing was more based off the fact that dragons persecute people who draw power from their unique faith, but forgot the fluff from 3.5 (I really need to remove the sorc complaint as it was minor to begin with)
Moradin is the father of the Dwarves (he is a forge god because dwarves are metal workers), there is no such god in Eberron. Nor are they your typical dwarves (although they are still close enough to be recognizable). The class seems better suited to not being based on any god for Eberron, I like some of the ideas Sarlax proposed in that regard using Moradin instead as a famous dwarf others might aspire to be.
Moradin is the father of the Dwarves (he is a forge god because dwarves are metal workers), there is no such god in Eberron. Nor are they your typical dwarves (although they are still close enough to be recognizable).
I repeat, Onatar is a forge god. And the ECG explicitly states the dwarves worship him. He is also depicted as a dwarven smith or brass dragon. Who's to say that Onatar ISN'T believed to be the dwarven creator god? Many a reference was made that various races of Khorvaire have had their gods assimilated into the Sovereign Host and the Dark Six, so it is quite possible to have Onatar BE Moradin to the dwarves. Weren't the dwarves already in Khorvaire before humans migrated over? They could have worshipped Onatar as Moradin before the humans "bastardized" things. Also, the Firstborn of Moradin could be incorporated into Eberron's history as the firstborn of Onatar, the Brass Dragon god who crafted the first dwarves out of stone, iron, and gems, but these firstborns were enslaved by the rakshasa/rajahs during the Age of Demons. Then, they were lost to history AND memory until recently or kept as a deep secret of the Mror Holds.
I guess I am of the mind to not make any of the Core gods into past mortal heroes for Eberron, cause that just brings horrible memories of the Faerunian deific mess to mind.
In Eberron, I see angels as behaving somewhere between other D&D angels and mortals - they serve the gods, but not because they know they exist. They have faith. An angel of Dol Dorn has never seen the deity but has complete faith in his existence.
Agreed. They have a level of faith that is difficult for mortals to comprehend. But they are still acting on faith. An angel may claim to be the Voice of Dol Arrah, but that's because it knows her will, not because it's ever had a personal conversation with her. We actually discussed this in 3E as an explanation for commune, planar ally and other spells. You don't speak directly to the Sovereign; you interact with a powerful outsider that considers itself to be a servant of that Sovereign.
And yes, we did have fallen angels before, even those who claimed to be gods and sought worship. So in a sense, Asmodeus is simply the setting's biggest radiant idol.
While the beliefs of western Khorvaire are typically called "druidic," I think one could easily say that shamans and wardens belong to the same belief system.
Absolutely. We had rangers in the sects before. Any primal class - and some non primal classes (bards among the Greensingers, for example) can find a place with any of the sects.
I repeat, Onatar is a forge god. And the ECG explicitly states the dwarves worship him. He is also depicted as a dwarven smith or brass dragon. Who's to say that Onatar ISN'T believed to be the dwarven creator god? Many a reference was made that various races of Khorvaire have had their gods assimilated into the Sovereign Host and the Dark Six, so it is quite possible to have Onatar BE Moradin to the dwarves. Weren't the dwarves already in Khorvaire before humans migrated over? They could have worshipped Onatar as Moradin before the humans "bastardized" things. Also, the Firstborn of Moradin could be incorporated into Eberron's history as the firstborn of Onatar, the Brass Dragon god who crafted the first dwarves out of stone, iron, and gems, but these firstborns were enslaved by the rakshasa/rajahs during the Age of Demons. Then, they were lost to history AND memory until recently or kept as a deep secret of the Mror Holds.
I guess I am of the mind to not make any of the Core gods into past mortal heroes for Eberron, cause that just brings horrible memories of the Faerunian deific mess to mind.
I really like the idea of it having been a dwarven god adapted to fit in with the Host, or married into (since he is Oladra's husband IIRC) it.
I guess since I don't usually play forgotten realms I get to be free of that stigma.
But you have convinced me: Firstborn of Onatar in my games.
Many a reference was made that various races of Khorvaire have had their gods assimilated into the Sovereign Host and the Dark Six, so it is quite possible to have Onatar BE Moradin to the dwarves... Also, the Firstborn of Moradin could be incorporated into Eberron's history as the firstborn of Onatar, the Brass Dragon god who crafted the first dwarves out of stone, iron, and gems, but these firstborns were enslaved by the rakshasa/rajahs during the Age of Demons. Then, they were lost to history AND memory until recently or kept as a deep secret of the Mror Holds.
The open issue is whether the Host has incorporated gods that had nothing to do with it... or whether many divergent cultures independently worshipped deities that map easily to the Sovereigns (so the Pyrinean humans of Sarlona developed their worship of Aureon independently of the ancient giant worship of Ouralon, but when a follower of Aureon goes into the temple of Ouralon in Xen'drik, the symbols aren't QUITE right... but they are close enough to be recognizable).
Whichever path you take - whether the dwarves worshipped a forge god that was converted to Onatar, or whether they worshipped a god who might have had a different name but can easily be seen as being Onatar (IE, brass dragon icon, similar holy symbol, similar manifestation of divine effects) - the idea that Onatar played a role in Dwarven culture before they adopted any of the other Sovereigns, and of Onatar serving the part of Moradin for PPs and the like, certainly works for me.
The open issue is whether the Host has incorporated gods that had nothing to do with it... or whether many divergent cultures independently worshipped deities that map easily to the Sovereigns (so the Pyrinean humans of Sarlona developed their worship of Aureon independently of the ancient giant worship of Ouralon, but when a follower of Aureon goes into the temple of Ouralon in Xen'drik, the symbols aren't QUITE right... but they are close enough to be recognizable).
Whichever path you take - whether the dwarves worshipped a forge god that was converted to Onatar, or whether they worshipped a god who might have had a different name but can easily be seen as being Onatar (IE, brass dragon icon, similar holy symbol, similar manifestation of divine effects) - the idea that Onatar played a role in Dwarven culture before they adopted any of the other Sovereigns, and of Onatar serving the part of Moradin for PPs and the like, certainly works for me.
I think I will go the separate but comparable god route. There appears to be a equivalent story in cannon, and Hellcow approved (I kinda wish there was a stamp for this).
Agreed. They have a level of faith that is difficult for mortals to comprehend. But they are still acting on faith. An angel may claim to be the Voice of Dol Arrah, but that's because it knows her will, not because it's ever had a personal conversation with her.
This might be another explanation for the apparent similarities between faiths of different origins. While culture on Earth can see some radical shifts in belief (look at Egypt over the last couple millenia), Eberron seems stable. This could be that the gods' make their influence known - or it could simply be the work of angels. A visit to mortals once every few centuries should be more than enough to keep a given religious idea alive.
And yes, we did have fallen angels before, even those who claimed to be gods and sought worship. So in a sense, Asmodeus is simply the setting's biggest radiant idol.
Cool idea. I especially like how this works with the "no fly" for the idols. If Asmodeus, perhaps once the most powerful angel, were cast out, his plummet might very well have torn through nine layers of Baator, until he finally stopped, trapped in Nessus.