Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Sekkanar Jul 21, 2014 20:46:20	I just found an intriguing passage in The Forge of War, on page 16 under the Battle of the Lurching Tower.   "The forces of Thrane that crossed the Brey River, christened the Silver Legion, consisted of 2,000 cavalry, 6,00 regular foot, 1,000 heavy pikes, 2,000 levied irregular archers, and 16 bombards and trebuchets."   Bombards are primitive medieval cannons.  This is the only reference to gunpowder weapons I've ever seen in Eberron fluff, and I'm curious if what I've found is just an anamoly or if anyone else has ever seen a similar reference anywhere else in Eberron lore.   On a separate note, I'm also now intrigued of the adventures that I could spin off the idea of gunpowder in Eberron.  Perhaps it was devised by the alchemical masters of House Cannith, who kept the secrets of its formula confined to Whitehearth.  Lost in the Mourning, the PCs have been contracted to recover the formula by one of the Cannith factions or even one of the Five Nations' governments.  The trek through the Mournland and the delving of Whitehearth would be hazardous enough in itself, but the adventurers also have to contend with agents of other interested parties...
#2 Tempest_Stormwind Jul 22, 2014 13:41:31	Honestly, I'd ascribe this to Forge of War having a rather... loose... relationship with established Eberron canon (ha!) where details are involved.   Given Eberron's relationship to magic, it's likely that "bombard" doesn't mean the same thing to them as it does to us - it could refer to a magically-enhanced ballista, for instance. (It's clustered with trebuchets, implying it's still a siege engine, but since it's not described anywhere, that's really all we have to go on. If the weapon were something as simple as a treated ballista that could shoot through stone walls, it would be used in much the same way as a bombard.) Magic, though difficult to use, is still much more reliable than early gunpowder, so in a world where anyone can learn a spell or two (by taking one level of magewright) there's probably little reason to study gunpowder, even if it does get discovered somewhere. (It'd be viewed as dangerous and volatile, though it might see use in controlled conditions such as manufacturing or research.) It might also see alternate uses, such as a specialty component for evocation spells (which are already thinly-veiled jokes about basic science - lightning bolt, for instance, has a material component that involves building up a static electricity shock, and fireball involves a fertilizer bomb) as opposed to how we used it.   This interpretation is a bit odd - as you say, bombards aren't mentioned anywhere else, and this specific group refers to Thrane's military, while magical strength tended to be Aundair's thing; meanwhile, were any of the five nations to have developed a cannon, it would probably have been Breland. But it does make things consistent with the continent as a whole without introducing something as gamechanging as gunpowder due to a single word in a poorly-edited book.       EDIT: Forge of War mentions them in a few other places. Page 22, the Battle of Metrol (929 YK), discusses two mercenary engineering regiments from the Mror Holds "equipped with bombards, towers, and trebuchets"; the bombard's use is described on the following page, where "one quick blast" from it at close range destroyed a gatehouse. Later, page 33 (part of the discussion of the third siege of Korth, 971 YK), a Battle of Ten Bombards is discussed, but it's a naval battle between Aundair and Korth in Scion's Sound and there's no apparent reason given for the name. (There's an illustration of the third seige on the previous page, but the fireballs seen there are clearly being thrown from a siege tower; given the rhetoric associated with describing bombards here, they're probably too large or unwieldy to be used in such a circumstance, and the blasts are likely fire spells.). There's also mention of "leveled bombards" (I admit, I'm not familiar with the adjective in this context) being used by a Brelish general against an eldritch machine in 987 YK (page 51); as near as I can tell this is the last chronological reference to them in the book, so it's not like the book claims they were only used during the early parts of the war.   All of this is consistent with siege cannons, as opposed to some other weapon, though an explosive ballista isn't out of the question either. And, as mentioned, I think this is unique to Forge of War and its somewhat touch-and-go relationship with Last War canon.
#3 Beoric Jul 22, 2014 12:52:27	I agree with everything Tempest said.  I would also point out that, historically, names of seige engines tended to be loosely applied, and the writers of FoW could easily have meant a torsion or counterweight weapon as opposed to a gunpowder weapon, even if they were referring to a historic text.    Hellcow has spoken about the whole gunpowder thing several times; I suggest you read some of the posts on his website(s).  If it was me, and I wanted to have a competitive product as part of my campaign, I would likely make it a magical variant in keeping with the flavour of the setting.    Also, Cannith is unlikely to develop a form of weapon that is competitive with its other prodicts, and that non-casters can make if they can cook.  Unless it was to find a way to defeat or suppress it.  More likely someone else would develop it, probably the gnomes.
#4 Tempest_Stormwind Jul 22, 2014 14:00:09	Beoric wrote:
#5 EnderXenocide0 Jul 22, 2014 14:16:28	Tempest_Stormwind wrote:
#6 Ogiwan Jul 23, 2014 8:21:54	I recall quite a few discussions with His Infernal Bovinity about siege staves.   The thing is, you can do whatever you want with your Eberron. You can have a gunpowder revolution if you want. In my Eberron, though, or in Tempest's Eberron, gunpowder is not a thing, for a bunch of reasons.
#7 Beoric Jul 24, 2014 9:41:59	What is a seige staff, anyway?  I have seen references, but I am not sure I have ever seen them or their function, described.
#8 Tempest_Stormwind Jul 24, 2014 11:45:40	Not yet having any time to read the novels (they're on my list), I resort to Google, and find this and this. Bolding is mine for emphasis, italics in original. Hellcow wrote:
#9 Beoric Jul 24, 2014 16:56:41	Thanks for that info, I don't know how I missed that post.  Interesting that Hellcow appears to be describing an antipersonnel device, I would have expected a replacement for a trebuchet, not a company of archers.    Although the situation has never come up, I have theorized about the possibility of 4e seige rituals.  In fact, I feel like 4e hasn't done enough with rituals in general.  I don't want to derail the thread, but if there is a soul out there who plays Eberron and is still using 4e, let me know and I'll give you my algorithm for taking an earlier edition spell and turning it into a 4e ritual.  (I'm an old AD&D hack, we houserule everything.)
#10 Tempest_Stormwind Jul 25, 2014 11:17:40	Beoric wrote:
#11 Ogiwan Jul 27, 2014 8:41:36	Tempest_Stormwind wrote:
#12 Tempest_Stormwind Jul 28, 2014 11:52:19	Ogiwan wrote:
#13 Ogiwan Jul 28, 2014 15:23:43	Ah, I thought there was some sort of feat that let you put in different energy types. So, put Sonic in there, and do extra damage to structures. I can't remember which feat it was, because I never was a big caster player.
#14 Tempest_Stormwind Jul 29, 2014 9:29:14	Ogiwan wrote: