Warforged can do anything a human can do, unless it says otherwise. Don't take it to an illogical extreme, use your imagination and your common sense.
If they have ranks in Swim, sure. Keep in mind, the check penalty incurred by their built-in armor is not technically 'Armor Check Penalty,' so you don't double it when applied to Swim checks.
Which means they actually swim BETTER than a human, since a human with equal training and armor would have a larger penalty, and hence a lower check.
Which means they actually swim BETTER than a human...
Yup. It makes sense to me; their bodies are slightly unwieldy compared to our own, but it's still easier for them to swim naked than for us to swim in plate armor.
So under some circumstances they're better in the water.
(Another point in their favour: Their armoured bodies do not count against their encumberance, which gives them another advantage over armoured human swimmers.)
This is, of course, assuming they're not trying to swim. I've met people who can swim just fine, but when they stop, they sink; I've also met people who always float.
This is, of course, assuming they're not trying to swim. I've met people who can swim just fine, but when they stop, they sink; I've also met people who always float.
And that's likely how it is with warforged. Some are more buoyant than others. Just like humans.
You can come up with a system to determine who floats and who doesn't. But there are no rules for it.
Basically, unless the Warforged falls off a boat in the middle of the ocean (and your DM is the kind of science freak who takes things like crush depth into account...
), or otherwise needs to rejoin a shipboard combat, I wouldn't worry too much about Swim ranks for Warforged.Basically, unless the Warforged falls off a boat in the middle of the ocean (and your DM is the kind of science freak who takes things like crush depth into account...
I'd be a tad more worried about the dire sharks, sahaugin and terrible lovecraft-esque horrors which a warforged may face in an environment where he is at a distinct disadvantage.
Not that crushing pressure isn't going to get you first, most likely, but even if you ignore that and dodge the lurking terrors it's still a long walk back to Khorvaire.
(That said, I think I'd like to see a warforged character who emerges from the sea one day, years after he fell in, to find the war is over and he's far behind on the current state of the world. Especially if his introduction into the party involves him actually walking up from the sea onto the beach while the party are still there.)
...and your DM is the kind of science freak who takes things like crush depth into account...
Science freak, or someone who would like to actually use the rules in his copy of Stormwrack?
I've always assumed that they sink unless they are actively making Swim checks. This usually isn't a problem, since they have no particular problem simply walking across the bottom of the lake/river/etc. and emerging on the other side. In fact, one of my favorite "why didn't anyone try this in the Last War" scenario is to have an army of Warforged march into Scion's Sound and march out wherever the enemy army isn't.
Basically, unless the Warforged falls off a boat in the middle of the ocean (and your DM is the kind of science freak who takes things like crush depth into account...
I wouldn't worry too much about the crushing thing, unless he fell in a trench. I'd worry more about the underwater creatures (as mentioned).
But since that's already been addressed I'm going to say something else. Rivers tend to be pretty strong, the warforged might get caught and washed 10 or 20 miles downriver from the force of the water. Small rivers would be ok, but anything to actually submerge the warforged might (depending) powerful enough to do what I mentioned.
Science freak, or someone who would like to actually use the rules in his copy of Stormwrack?
Stormwrack nothing, pressure damage is in the DMG. 1d6 damage per minute per 100'.
Wow...and here I thought it was an optional rule, by the way folks talk about pressure damage. Ah well.
Excuse me while I conveniently ignore this little piece of information.
I mean, if you don't allow an army of warforged to march across a lake and attack a coastal city by surprise, what's the point of having them in the first place?
Of course in theory they could swim at about a depth of 90' most of the way and be fine. Immune to fatigue and all that.
I just rolled my eyes and told him, "Of course he would be, because you're a freak about realism and science-type rules." :P
Honestly though, I don't own Stormwrack and I've only rarely used the environmental rules from the DMG. It's no excuse for failing at my Knowledge (arcana) check, but I'm a Ranger, not a Wizard, darn it!
P.S.: grifo, thanks for agreeing with me! Warforged amphibious assault FTW!
P.P.S.: RedRider, I'm making that my next Warforged character... oh yes, I am!
Of course in theory they could swim at about a depth of 90' most of the way and be fine. Immune to fatigue and all that.
That seems scary enough - a squad of warforged could swim across a huge lake without getting tired and can swim near crush depth the entire way since they don't need to breathe. Combine that with the fact that warforged are superior swimmers (as shown above), I don't see why you wouldn't want an amphibious special forces team made up of warforged.
That seems scary enough - a squad of warforged could swim across a huge lake without getting tired and can swim near crush depth the entire way since they don't need to breathe. Combine that with the fact that warforged are superior swimmers (as shown above), I don't see why you wouldn't want an amphibious special forces team made up of warforged.
But just because they could swim, doesn't necessarily means it'd be practical. Sure, they might not rust, but whatever they're carrying could; and walking is not exactly a very quick mode of movement.
But just because they could swim, doesn't necessarily means it'd be practical. Sure, they might not rust, but whatever they're carrying could; and walking is not exactly a very quick mode of movement.
There's plenty of things to prevent rusting. Blueshine and Everbright enchantments come to mind.
But, that said, please show me where in the rules where something can rust from normal environmental issues. Even if there were, its easy to oil/grease your weapon. A simple tub of lard is all you need to waterproof it.
There are ways around the crushing damage as well. The aquatic enchantment for armor, IIRC, gives you the ability to breath under (redundant), a swim speed, and immunity to pressure damage. Just what the aquatic warforged force ordered.
There's plenty of things to prevent rusting. Blueshine and Everbright enchantments come to mind.
But, that said, please show me where in the rules where something can rust from normal environmental issues. Even if there were, it's easy to oil/grease your weapon. A simple tub of lard is all you need to waterproof it.
There are ways around the crushing damage as well. The aquatic enchantment for armor, IIRC, gives you the ability to breath under (redundant), a swim speed, and immunity to pressure damage. Just what the aquatic warforged force ordered.
However, that all takes up resources (fundamentals of economic: to gain something you give up something) that could be used elsewhere, and some of that elsewhere might be more profitable. Just because something CAN be done, doesn't mean it's practical.
Or, in other "words":
However, that all takes up resources (fundamentals of economic: to gain something you give up something) that could be used elsewhere, and some of that elsewhere might be more profitable. Just because something CAN be done, doesn't mean it's practical.
Its quite practical, actually. Its like saying its impractical to give an elite soldier a flaming sword. No, its not standard issue, but yes, when the situation calls for it, it makes sense.
A Warforged with aquatic armor would be special, yes, they would be special ops. If you want an underwater fighting force to sink enemy ships, its going to cost you. But really, the non-water breathing aquatic enchantment is, IIRC, only a +1 equivolant. Its no different than enchanting a scouting WF with Shadowed.
Its Eberron, low level magic is common. Its almost silly to think that any elite warforged unit wouldn't be going into battle without at least some +1 armor and a couple of abilities on it.
However, that all takes up resources (fundamentals of economic: to gain something you give up something) that could be used elsewhere, and some of that elsewhere might be more profitable. Just because something CAN be done, doesn't mean it's practical.
True enough, but as Edy said, special-purpose squads can be worth the investment.
Also of course, it may just be that warforged find themselves in a situation where swimming becomes either nescessary or the best option.
This kind of situation is the bread and butter of PCs, but even outside the realm of high adventure, there's got to be a few war stories about a squad of warforged who cleverly staged a surprise attack by crossing a difficult river or a large unit of soldiers arriving at an enemy warforged camp only to find they've buried their equipment and hidden at the bottom of a lake while they wait for reinforcements.
In war, you can't always rely on having the tools to do the job. Sometimes you've got to improvise, even if it means ordering your unit to cling onto the bottom of an enemy ship like barnacles and stealing new weapons and tools once you arrive at your destination.
True enough, but as Edy said, special-purpose squads can be worth the investment.
Also of course, it may just be that warforged find themselves in a situation where swimming becomes either necessary or the best option.
This kind of situation is the bread and butter of PCs, but even outside the realm of high adventure, there's got to be a few war stories about a squad of warforged who cleverly staged a surprise attack by crossing a difficult river or a large unit of soldiers arriving at an enemy warforged camp only to find they've buried their equipment and hidden at the bottom of a lake while they wait for reinforcements.
In war, you can't always rely on having the tools to do the job. Sometimes you've got to improvise, even if it means ordering your unit to cling onto the bottom of an enemy ship like barnacles and stealing new weapons and tools once you arrive at your destination.
A few stories, yes; and in those situations, that course of action was clearly the most practical. It just doesn't pop up too often.
...And now I want Keith Baker to write a story about an underwater city of 'forged.
Wouldn't their armor rust?
Rusting unless from a magical source takes time. To prevent Rusting in the real world people normally only have to do a little work to prevent it or reverse the effects over time. But then again we are talking D&D and rusting of metal to my knowledge isn't covered as an Enviromental effect with in the rules. Rules for rusting so far in the rules have only covered with in Magical effects.
Any moisture will make iron/steel rust, be it from blood or just high humidity. But I'm willing to be that it has *NEVER* come up in any game you've ever been in, am I right?
Heck, for that matter, when was the last time you ever even stopped to realize that your character only has one set of clothes? You get one set when making your character, when have you ever gone out of your way to buy more? Go find your current/last character sheet and tell me how many changes of clothes he/she is carrying with their gear.
If your human character can wear the same set of clothes day in, day out, through bloody combat and diplomatic dinner party, and they never get dirty, never wear out, never get stinky, why would you suddenly start worrying about Warforged rusting? You're running around with a character that, by all rights, should have had their clothes rot off their shoulders by now.
What I like to point out is, when was the last time you ever saw a DM worry about your armor rusting when you were in a jungle, or a swamp, or slogging through the mud? Or that kept tabs on when you cleaned your sword after hacking somebody up with it?
Any moisture will make iron/steel rust, be it from blood or just high humidity. But I'm willing to be that it has *NEVER* come up in any game you've ever been in, am I right?
Heck, for that matter, when was the last time you ever even stopped to realize that your character only has one set of clothes? You get one set when making your character, when have you ever gone out of your way to buy more? Go find your current/last character sheet and tell me how many changes of clothes he/she is carrying with their gear.
If your human character can wear the same set of clothes day in, day out, through bloody combat and diplomatic dinner party, and they never get dirty, never wear out, never get stinky, why would you suddenly start worrying about Warforged rusting? You're running around with a character that, by all rights, should have had their clothes rot off their shoulders by now.
I know that my tenth-level party, most of them are still wearing the same old pants they started out with. My character is not; I asked for another set of clothes from a village we saved.
...is that common with female gamers?
...is that common with female gamers?
I dunno, I can only name two characters I've ever had that specifically had multiple sets of clothes. One is my Karnnathi soldier that had a noble's outfit with jewelry that I described as a dress uniform and medals. The other was my female sorcerer in Faerun, who had at least a dozen changes of clothing in her haversack.
Honestly, I never even thought about it until this thread. Guess I'll need to start buying more clothes!
As for a warforged rusting, I would say that it isn't likely. It would only be a problem for warforged in extreme situations of poor care. Just as humans perform basic self-care, so do warforged. While you might have a human who doesn't take care of themselves at all and has skin infections, boils, and rashes as a result, so too might you have a warforged showing signs of rust. Remember also that warforged are alive: while the constructs do not possess a biology identical to humanoids they are known for their ability to grow and change over time. This could account for some limited ability to remain in good condition.
DocB
:88E: vs :coolcthul Who shall prevail?
As for a warforged rusting, I would say that it isn't likely. It would only be a problem for warforged in extreme situations of poor care. Just as humans perform basic self-care, so do warforged. While you might have a human who doesn't take care of themselves at all and has skin infections, boils, and rashes as a result, so too might you have a warforged showing signs of rust. Remember also that warforged are alive: while the constructs do not possess a biology identical to humanoids they are known for their ability to grow and change over time. This could account for some limited ability to remain in good condition.
Makes sense!
Haha, sorry about the crush depth crack... but you see, a friend of mine almost lost his much-beloved Warforged Saint due to a botched Balance roll in the Thunder Sea. He kept his mouth shut about crush depth until after the session, and confided to me that if HE had been the DM, that character would have been dead.
I just rolled my eyes and told him, "Of course he would be, because you're a freak about realism and science-type rules." :P
Honestly though, I don't own Stormwrack and I've only rarely used the environmental rules from the DMG. It's no excuse for failing at my Knowledge (arcana) check, but I'm a Ranger, not a Wizard, darn it!
P.S.: grifo, thanks for agreeing with me! Warforged amphibious assault FTW!
P.P.S.: RedRider, I'm making that my next Warforged character... oh yes, I am!
Sorry for being the reality freak here!!
Enter : FREAK MODE
I don't think warforged has to worry about crushing depth.
Why not?
Since they don't breathe they don't have any use for any type of gas pressurized at 1 atm.
And since fluids and solids will not compress to any significant degree under pressure it will be safe to say that crushing depth is not a problem for WF
I assume that most living beings on Eberron only can be made up of those three (solid, fluid and gas) state forms - I realize that fire elementals (and other creatures) also has some plasma...
Exit : FREAK MODE
...
I don't think warforged has to worry about crushing depth.
Why not?
Since they don't breathe they don't have any use for any type of gas pressurized at 1 atm.
And since fluids and solids will not compress to any significant degree under pressure it will be safe to say that crushing depth is not a problem for WF.
Can you provide any information on crushing depth and pressure damage? I seem to recall reading that some (unmanned) submarine vessels have to be specially constructed to avoid being damaged from the pressure....
I assume that most living beings on Eberron only can be made up of those three (solid, fluid and gas) state forms - I realize that fire elementals (and other creatures) also has some plasma...
There's also the quori, who have the state form of FREAKING YOUR AR$E OFF....
Can you provide any information on crushing depth and pressure damage? I seem to recall reading that some (unmanned) submarine vessels have to be specially constructed to avoid being damaged from the pressure....
QUOTE]
There is a few textbooks on the subject, but thats fairly advanced physics. So unless you're planing to take a major in physics I think the following will do:
Basicly there is four state forms (five if you consider the extremes - like neutron stars - but we don't). Gas, fluid, solid and plasma.
Only the three first is relevant to creatures that live on a planet resembling earth. In a fantasy world only outsiders (like fire elementals) will have any plasma in their bodies (at least that's what I would say as DM).
Under pressure the three behaves different:
Gas: Gas under pressure follows the ideal gas law (more or less) that states that at constant temperature: the higher pressure the less volume of gas. So a gas that is taken deep down in the ocean will take up less space.
Fluid: A fluid will not compress under pressure (that's why hydraulic systems work). It's freezing point will go down but eventually - under extremes - fluids can become solids because of the pressure (earths core is solid even though its thousands degrees C).
Solid: Will not compress under pressure because (like fluids) the atoms are as close together as they can come. It takes the gravity from a star larger than the sun to make a pressure to do that.
What this means is that if you have an object that only consists of solids and fluids (like the Remote Underwater Vehicles you describe). Then there is no real limit to what the frame can take. As long as its an equal perssure on all sides (and it is under water).
So as long a warforged doesn't have any cavities that are sealed they sould not have any problems.
Another problem is if they have some fluids in their bodies and there is some kind of gas in that fluid, they could get what divers call 'the shakes'. Bubbels of gas in the blood that is created because of the rapid decrease in pressure.
Yet another problem to consider it that it tends to get quite cold below 0 degree C (32 F), when you go down to depths of >1000 m (3000 ft.)
I hope this helps.
Swim: Most of their bodies are made of something like wood and they swim just fine.
Rust: Not enough to effect game play. Maybe mention spots of rust if they are spending a lot of time in swamps or coastal areas, but a few minutes of polishing will take care of that.
Crushing depth: As mentioned, unless the WF have some sort of air filled cavity they will be more or less unaffected except at the most extreme depths. If the primary substance of their bodies is something like wood then there would be some trapped air and that could be an issue, but only at really extreme depths. Plus their natural bouancy would necessitate the use of weights to keep them from bobbing to the surface.
Can you provide any information on crushing depth and pressure damage? I seem to recall reading that some (unmanned) submarine vessels have to be specially constructed to avoid being damaged from the pressure....
unmanned subs still need air-pockets to keep all those electronics dry (: