After all, High Cardinal Krozen has divine power, despite being a self-righteous a-hole and being a total hypocrite of the Silver Flame.
Krozen is a complex figure. Let's take a look at a few quotes from the 4E ECG...
"He, like other senior religious officials, climbed through the church’s ranks, serving for a time as a holy warrior and priest, attaining the rank of archbishop for his zeal and unmatched piety."
"In truth, it was hard to object to Krozen’s appointment—few could match his knowledge of the sacred texts or his passion for the church."
"In the early years of his tenure, Cardinal Krozen worked tirelessly to strengthen the church in the lives of the common people of Thrane, and to keep Thrane’s military strong."
"Although he was ruthless, his loyalty and devotion to the Silver Flame remained true . . . at least until the Mourning."
"Bit by bit, he has succumbed to the temptation of using dark magic..."
Krozen began as a deeply devout man. He's always been dedicated to strengthening Thrane. He's just always believed the prosperity of Thrane was tied to military strength, the strong influence of the church across the state, and his personal leadership. The Mourning exacerbated his character flaws - pushing him to deal with darker forces that the younger Krozen would never have dealt with. He's become more convinced that Thrane NEEDS him - as the ECS says, "If the Mourning was a magical phenomenon, he must find the trigger and control it to ensure that Thrane remains secure and to force his enemies to their knees." And in turn, he's become convinced that Thrane is, on some level, HIS nation - because he's the one who can keep it safe.
One of the challenges of the Silver Flame is that the closer you are to it, the closer you are to the Shadow in the Flame. The Keeper exists to help hold Bel Shalor at bay, but he's still there; and as the ECG says, "(Bel Shalor's) strength is his ability to trick good people into performing evil deeds."
Krozen's initial ability to tap into the power of the Flame is perfectly logical; he was deeply devout and passionate about his cause. As his path has turned darker, he's still drawing on the Flame - just the darker side of it. He's becoming a hypocrite in that the Church exists to protect people from the sort of dark forces he's starting to deal with; but I've always believed that in HIS mind, he's doing what's best for the people of Thrane. They need his strong hand. They need someone who will protect them from both the other nations and from the threat of the Mourning. And the Keeper just isn't strong enough.
He's more likely to be a villain than a hero in most campaigns. But in looking at his clerical ability, it's important to see that he was one of the most devout priests in the past; he's simply fallen from his way.
In any case, that is my contribution to this thread. I am just lurking. I just wanted to note that posts like that are awesome.
The thing that stands out was that Krozen is that he was fiercely devoted to the Silver Flame before he even begins his descent into darkness (or fall from grace, as it were). He's a textbook fanatic. One thing I believe is that you never trust a fanatic. They're closed-minded, self-righteous, and will only follow the rules as long as it suits their purpose. For that reason, I'd never give Krozen even the time of day. Hell, I wouldn't even piss on him if he was on fire.
Personally, I don’t consider Krozen a fanatic. Looking at one definition of the term, a fanatic is “a person filled with an excessive and single-minded zeal, especially for an extreme religious or political cause.”
To me, the term fanaticism is better reserve for, say, the followers of the Pure Flame or the Emerald Claw – people who are dedicated to a particularly extreme, misguided, or narrow-minded view of their particular religion. We’ve never said that this is the case with Krozen. “Few could match his knowledge of the sacred texts or passion for the church,” certainly – but there’s no indication that he was interpreting them incorrectly, or that his passion for the church was a dangerous or negative thing.
With this in mind, let’s step back and look at the Church of the Silver Flame. What does it mean to have “passion for the church” or a desire to “strengthen the church in the lives of the common people?” Let’s look at the Dragonshard on the subject…
The goal of the Church is to cleanse the world of evil. In the minds of most outsiders, this conjures up images of templars and exorcists fighting with sword and spell. But the vast majority of the members of the Church are not warriors. More people are in the ministry and the Order of Friars than in the Order of Templars, and they seek to battle evil by nurturing good. A Thrane farmer who is faithful to the Flame does not fight demons. But he seeks to live his life by the ideals of the Church: to help those in need, to encourage virtuous behavior, and to be a force of light in the world. Gradations of evil exist, and while no mercy can be granted to the demon, hope remains that the greedy merchant or the arrogant king may follow a different path if shown how. The minister -- and the paladin -- leads by example and demonstrates to others the errors of their ways.
People often approach the church with the idea that its followers are intolerant, and certain extremist factions within it are. But those factions are the hypocrites who have strayed from the path. Compassion and charity are vital weapons in the arsenal of the church. So I’m just saying that when Krozen was younger, the statement that he was admired for his “passion for the church” isn’t necessarily a bad thing – if that passion reflected his compassion and his desire to improve the lives of the people of his nation. Bear in mind also that this was taking place in a time of war – a time when the common people were in constant danger. And here is where I see the start of Krozen’s fall – a growing level of pride and arrogance that led him to believe that hewas the only one who could lead his people to victory, who could protect them from both the spiritual and practical dangers of this age of war. He believes that the Keeper is TOO weak – that she is letting compassion for the enemy blind her to the fact that in this present day they ARE the enemy, and that Thrane must be secure before they can look to the troubles of the world.
And then there’s the Mourning.
The Mourning was a traumatic event for everyone. If you live in the US, imagine that Nebraska, Iowa, Kansas, Missouri, Oklahoma, and Arkansas were wiped out by an unexplained disaster – possibly a terrorist attack – and hey, for good measure, Texas was taken over by goblins. The heart of Old Galifar was wiped out in the space of a day. No one knows how. It’s far from unreasonable to fear that it could happen again. And that fear has sunk its claws deep into Krozen’s heart. He is determined to unlock its secrets. To learn what caused it. If it is a weapon, he must harness that power for Thrane before some other nation can use it against them. And it’s this obsession that has driven him towards the darkness… because what’s a bargain with a demon or two set against the salvation of the entire nation?
Essentially, Krozen is an example of what the SF priests in Stormreach fear about the theocracy – that the political duties of the church will distract it from its spiritual mission. Krozen’s obsession with the military and political aspects of ruling Thrane have caused him to compromise his religious principles.
Looking again to the Silver Flame Dragonshards:
The most common form of corruption is when zealous devotion causes a priest to set aside mercy and compassion. Such a priest may be a pillar of his community and an admirable man who has absolute dedication to the Church. But if he must sacrifice the innocent in pursuit of the greater good, he will. He will torture and kill without remorse. He will not glorify these actions, and will not torture needlessly -- but he will not shirk from using dark methods to win the battle against evil.
This again is Krozen. His weakness is his pride – his belief that Thrane needs him, that only he can protect it from the Mourning. That the Keeper, the other cardinals – they are too weak to do what must be done. He has guided the nation safely through the war. He must be the one to guide it safely to the future. And if that means discrediting rivals or employing dark powers, so be it; it’s what his people need.
As I said, I see him as being more likely to serve the role of villain in a campaign than to be a hero; but he’s not just the simple Pure Flame zealot or Whispering Flame cultist. I believe there’s a valid argument to be made that Jaela ISN’T a good choice as leader in a time of war between the Five Nations, precisely because she is too compassionate… that her devotion to the principles of the Flame is a handicap in an age where cousins are set against one another, where the war is not against evil but against political rivals.
I could easily see an Agents of Jaela campaign with some of the flavor of The Three Musketeers, with honorable PCs clashing with the less honorable agents of the High Cardinal; but as in Dumas, I think there’s room to question whether Krozen’s dark tactics might be what the nation needs… and in a campaign more steered towards noir than pulp, I think it could be very interesting to play a group of agents of Krozen, constantly forced to question whether the actions you’re called upon to take are in the best interests of the nation in spite of their dark nature.
Yet he has been thoroughly corrupted. "The High Cardinal also employs sinister means to attain his information and treasures. Bit by bit, he has succumbed to the temptation of using dark magic, calling up foul demons, dealing with devils, and employing other hideous creatures to tease out the secrets of his enemies."
I'm not even certain if Krozen has changed much throughout the years. Certainly the Mourning has caused him to become paranoid and take more drastic measures, but I think long before the Mourning, Krozen was set on this course. "In the early years of his tenure, Cardinal Krozen worked tirelessly to strengthen the church in the lives of the common people of Thrane, and to keep Thrane’s military strong."
Krozen continues to strengthen church and military. His focus has hardly changed since the Last War. I think, rather, what has changed is the world. When a man ruthlessly kills an enemy in war it is celebrated as a victory; but if he does so in a time of peace, he is a murderer.
I consider Krozen very different from someone like Archbishop Solgar Dariznu. Archbishop Dariznu to me is a true fanatic with a sick mind. I consider him very zealous in his faith, and emotionally consumed by his hatred of heretics, infidels, and devil-worshippers. He is concerned first and foremost in destroying evil and relishes every chance to inflict the most pain and suffering on those who consort with evil. In my mind, he would never consort with devils and would happily burn Cardinal Krozen to death if he was aware of Krozen's dark magic.
Krozen, on the other hand, I view as calculating and cold, thoroughly dedicated to protecting the Church and the Theocracy (which are the physical embodiment of the Flame) at all costs. If he believes there is a doomsday device (such as the Mourning) that could wipe out the Theocracy and the Church, and thereby destroy the physical manifestation of the Flame itself, then no effort can be spared to capture it or destroy it. The possibility of the destruction of everything he believes in allows him to rationalize any action, from the smallest white lie to the harshest interrogation method. And if the fate of the Church itself lies in the balance then any action, any ally is acceptable, even the most deplorable fiend.
I consider Krozen very different from someone like Archbishop Solgar Dariznu. Archbishop Dariznu to me is a true fanatic with a sick mind.
Certainly - this is why I dislike "Fanatic" as a description of Krozen, because he's so very different from someone like Dariznu.
As a side note, because it's something that went unmentioned in the 3.5 description of Dariznu - Governor of Thaliost, for those who don't recognize the name - he's actually an Aundairian, not a Thrane. One reason he was installed was the hope that an Aundairan would be more successful at governing the former Aundairian province. As noted on page 247 of the 4E ECG, the Servants of the Pure Flame - the extremist sect that best fits the word "fanatic" for me - is actually strongest in Aundair. It's rooted in the faith spread when the Templars came to Aundair to defend its people from the lycanthropes in the Silver Crusade, and as a result it's built on the idea of the faith as a weapon and watered in blood. By comparison, the Church of Thrane is quite moderate - again, based on the idea that compassion and charity are vital tools in the effort to destroy evil. Which comes back to the challenges of having a woman who holds her office because she is supposedly a exemplar of compassion during an age of war... and why Krozen believes he is the one who needs to guide the country.
So Dariznu is more of a violent extremist than Krozen - in part because he IS an Aundairan fanatic.
In reality, it's just a land grab by Aundair, but they use the threat of the barbaric tribes and recent (unrelated) attacks by the Ashbound to paint the Reachers as savages they are defending themselves from. The Wardens and their PC allies find themselves stuck between an invasion by Aundair and savage barbaric attacks from the West at a time when many Eastern Reachers are discontent with the Wardens' ability to deliver peace and prosperity.
The campaign arc uses the Khyber's Harvest adventure as an introduction, setting the cult in the Eldeen Reaches near the Shadowcrags.
To me, High Cardinal Krozen as we see him now is little different from the young cleric who maybe spread a whisper campaign against a rival bishop, that accused him of treason against the theocracy merely because the man's sister was married to an Aundairian noble. Or perhaps as a powerful arch-bishop turning his back on his nephew, executed for allegedly belonging to the Blood of Vol.
It seems to me that someone like Krozen was probably heading this direction for a long time, and it only took the Mourning to really push him to consort with fiends and dabble in dark magic.
Most church officials resist the temptation to exploit the benefit that their position affords them, keeping the tenets of their faith, but a few have drifted, giving in to their baser impulses to reap the benefit of their station. Of these unprincipled members, High Cardinal Krozen represents the worst, embodying the the theocracy's dangers and excesses of its power.
Now as much as the two page spread might go into about the circumstances that have changed the Cardinal, that's a first impression for anyone reading about him. And as first impressions go, it isn't particularly flattering.
Having read the two pages, I'd probably try to make Krozen a tragic figure. He's completely paranoid and has lost all warmth and love in life, and has instead become an obsessed and driven man. Constantly on the lookout for enemies of Thrane or himself (although they're the same thing in his mind). The players would need to work their way to the centre of Krozen, moving through many veils. Along the way they'd find more and more evidence that Krozen's fears are unjustified. That he's simply an insane man.
Then there'd be the final confrontation. He wouldn't be a particularly difficult NPC to fight. It would be more of a tragic death than anything else. Although at the end, right after he's died and the danger seems to be over, the enemies Krozen feared so much might, just might, leap out of the shadows to attack.
People often approach the church with the idea that its followers are intolerant, and certain extremist factions within it are. But those factions are the hypocrites who have strayed from the path. Compassion and charity are vital weapons in the arsenal of the church.
One of my players is a priest of the Silver Flame and I was very impressed when she chose to be on a pilgrimage as her reason for traveling to Sharn. I was able to place her in the Order of Friars and have been quietly exploring what it means to be a member of this order. Sure she has a sword and kills enemies. But she also takes time to actually minister to the weak. She even went from the finest church in Sharn to one in a poor neighbourhood to instead minister to those who lived there.
Krozen was featured as an ex-paladinish figure that had fallen trapped in self-controversies of right and wrong, and Ikari Gendo's portrait was used for him in that campaign (don't know him? see this one: upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/18/G...)
I think I'd roughly agree on this concept. I have not read much about 4E Eberron yet, but this explanation should be self-consistent in the 3.5 context.
*Krozen Gendo Ikari*
I smell material for a Fan-fic...
Back to Krozen though, do you see him as always being Evil throughout his entire career? I believe an ambitious young cleric who excels in his studies and heroically serves his country in battle can still be manipulative, cunning and violent to any who cross him.
To me, High Cardinal Krozen as we see him now is little different from the young cleric who maybe spread a whisper campaign against a rival bishop, that accused him of treason against the theocracy merely because the man's sister was married to an Aundairian noble. Or perhaps as a powerful arch-bishop turning his back on his nephew, executed for allegedly belonging to the Blood of Vol.
It seems to me that someone like Krozen was probably heading this direction for a long time, and it only took the Mourning to really push him to consort with fiends and dabble in dark magic.
I don't think there's a right answer to this. I think he's an interesting character either way. Hence my OP question being "How have you used him in YOUR campaign?"
For me personally...
The question to me is Krozen's devotion to the faith itself. Again, the point of the Church is to overcome evil, and a key part of that is to battle evil by doing good - to inspire others around you. One of the original points that kicked the discussion off was that Krozen has considerable divine power despite clearly drifting from the core path of the church. My point is that I believe that there was a time when his faith was true - when he absolutely believed in the core principles of the church, would never deal with a demon, and so on. It was this faith that helped him find his bond to the Flame - to draw on divine power.
Part of the point here is that there was a time when the church was a purely spiritual entity. With the rise of Thrane as a theocracy, national politics and military defense are suddenly tied more deeply into it - making far more room for people seeking power within the church due to greed, political aspirations, and so on. In my opinion, however, those are exactly the sort of priests who would never actually develop significant divine magic. As noted in 3.5, not every priest of the Silver Flame is a cleric or even an adept; even a good priest doesn't actually need divine magic to minister to his flock, as shown in churches around the world today. Good Insight, Diplomacy, History, Religion, perhaps Heal - Listen to the people and guide them through their troubles. To me, the fact that Krozen was a "holy warrior" suggests real faith. Mind you, you can get that power other ways, so that's not an absolute indicator - just what I'm going with.
Now, having said that... do I think he could have been a crafty schemer through that time? Do I believe that in game terms, he could have had a non-good alignment? Yes. But it's all about WHY he did the things that he did. I can absolutely see Krozen using a whispering campaign to bring down a rival bishop. But I see him first doing it because he realizes that this bishop is a TRULY corrupt individual - a priest driven purely by greed, abusing the faith of his followers, yet one with enough connections (or, for example, some way to harm Krozen's family) to keep Krozen from acting openly. He could see that there was no redemption for this man. He couldn't challenge him openly. And so he used treachery and cunning to bring him down. But he did so firmly believing that it was necessary for the good of the Church and of Thrane.
Having done it once, it just becomes easier to do it again. But again, the question is motive. Is he bringing down his enemies for his own personal aggrandizement? Or is he doing it because he believes that he's the one cleansing the church - and is he truly cleansing the church in the process? Essentially, is he a serial killer preying on innocents... or the serial killer who only kills even worse serial killers? Either way, he's become an expert at a form of combat that cannot be considered "good" in terms of alignment. And here again we see the Shadow In The Flame doing what it's best at - tricking good people into doing evil things. Again, my attitude is that the closer your ties to the Flame, the more at risk you are to hear the whispers of the Shadow within it... and that this is tied to Krozen's fall. While his methods are reprehensible, I say that he BELIEVES he's doing what has to be done.
Which brings us to today, and dark magic. You can play him as, well, Erandis Vol: a power-hungry leader who cares nothing for the beliefs of her followers and considers them dupes and tools to be used. But I personally find him more interesting as the person who still believes that he is doing what needs to be done for the good of Thrane and the Church. Personally, play that he HATES dealing with demons and dark magic. That he knows he is risking his passage to the Flame after death, if it's not lost already - but that he feels he MUST do this, because Jaela and the others are too weak to do what must be done. Dariznu is a fanatic and a fool. Jaela is incapable of dealing with the political and military realities that are now part of the church. Only Krozen can see what has to be done. Only he can protect Thrane from the Mourning. And if he has to sacrifice his own soul to do it - at least he's saving everyone else.
Again, to me it comes to Erandis Vol, who is a truly corrupt priest. I prefer to see Krozen as someone who's strayed from the path - who's willing to sacrifice anyone and anything for what he believes is right - but who believes he is doing what's best for the church and the nation.
This may be no surprise given my username, but I think he truly, all the way to the core, believes he's the One True Hope of the church; he's GOT to take whatever steps are necessary to protect himself, because without him the Light will fail and Darkness will overwhelm the land.
Is he evil? OH yeah.
Does he THINK he's evil? That's a tougher question.
One potential answer: Not a drop. The few times it's crossed his mind... when some tiny better part of himself has said "hey, wait a second here, are we really sure this is the right thing to do?" he's pushed it aside with the mantra of "Anything that advances the cause is, by definition, good, even if our mortal minds are incapable of seeing the goodness in it." This would be Krozen as a fanatic of the "The end justifies the means" persuasion.
Another possibility: He knows that at least some of his actions have been evil, and he's ashamed of them, but his thoughts run: "Some things, no matter how distasteful, are necessary. Someone must do them. Let it be me, that these tasks will not taint the souls of others. By doing this, I transcend pedestrian definitions; I do evil, in the ultimate service of the greater good." This casts him more as Krozen the Martyr (at least in his own mind).
I really can't think of him as strictly a manipulative villain glorying in the naivete of his fellows; that would be Krozen the Monster, and ... it just doesn't gel for me. If it does for you, great, run with that, but somehow it seems boring compared to the other two.
I really can't think of him as strictly a manipulative villain glorying in the naivete of his fellows; that would be Krozen the Monster, and ... it just doesn't gel for me. If it does for you, great, run with that, but somehow it seems boring compared to the other two.
That's my take as well. We've got the manipulative-high-priestess-glorying-in-the-naivete-of-her-followers with Erandis. I prefer Krozen as I'll-do-these-bad-things-because-someone-must... but someone who will still crush a sect of the Whispering Flame; someone who still cares about the people of Thrane and keeping THEM on the proper path; just someone who believes that up at the top ugly things need to be done, and that if the country was left to the soft Keeper and her moderates or maniacs like Dariznu, things would fall apart.
So how does this make him different from Kaius, who's also a "I do evil for the greater good" guy?
One way they can differ is in what they want the world to be. Both are prepare to do terrible things to reunite their countries. If you hold to Krozen's roots as a pious follower of the faith, then my argument is that Krozen wants a world that holds to the Flamic ideal. He wants to eradicate evil from the world - ultimately, even people like himself. But with the world at war, it's not possible; political reality currently makes universal compassion impossible (in his eyes). Nonetheless, he wants to eliminate corruption from the church, save for his personal agents. He wants to encourage idealism - and not the fanaticism of the Pure Flame - among the people. He still believes in the Flame; he's just fallen from his path in his quest to ensure that others stay on it.
Kaius is a horse of a different color. He wants peace, yes. But he wants The Peace of Kaius. This is a man who rewrote the laws of Galifar to be more totalitarian, and still maintains that harsher code today. He does terrible things in the name of protecting his nation, yes. But as I said in the other thread - he may want peace, while Aurala wants war; but a Galifar united under Aurala would probably be a brighter and happier kingdom than one united under Kaius.
In essence, I like the thought that Krozen has some remorse. He does what he does because it must be done and he's the only one with the strength to do it. But he knows he's putting his own soul in peril in the process. He wishes he lived in a world where his sacrifice was unnecessary. Whereas in my mind, Kaius has always had a harder heart - going back to when he challenged his sister for the kingdom that tradition said was rightfully hers.
In short, in my campaign Erandis is a manipulator with no remorse, who doesn't share the beliefs of her followers. Of course, she has HER reasons - survivor's guilt, desire to acheive the goal that got her family exterminated - but she's not acting out of any belief that she's helping her followers.
Krozen is a master manipulator, but he still does believe in the principles of the Flame - he's just fallen from them to do what needs to be done. He's the serial killer who preys on other serial killers. In an ideal world, there would be no serial killers, including him - but that's not the world, and people need him doing what he's doing to protect them.
Kaius is a ruthless person who believes that's what it takes to rule in this age - that his people (and Galifar itself) need someone prepared to govern with an iron fist. He recognizes that war is folly and will devastate the land. But he still believes that everything he's done has been necessary, and he'd rule in the same way if his power extended over the land - because that, in his eyes, is what makes a stable kingdom. Beyond this, bear in mind that Kaius is older than Krozen; that
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he's done terrible things (killed his wife, imprisoned his grandson, exiled his granddaughter) and beyond that, he's not human; he's a vampire, and in my opinion that does change someone. It doesn't make you EVIL... but you're still suffused with the energy of Mabar, still smell the blood in other's veins and feel their lifeforce around you, waiting to be seized. Even if you resist that urge, it's still a thing that will put distance between you and mortals... at least, that's my take.
Kaius, I don't see much in the way of redeemable qualities, politically or morally. Despite the dire straits his nation was in, he CHOSE to give in Erandis' demands. He shouldn't have acted so shocked and horrified at what was going to happen to him when Erandis came back to collect. Not to say he deserved what happened, but if you consort with dark forces, it's only a matter of time before you get sucked into the darkness. Aurala would make a good queen, but is too war-wacky for her own good and doesn't realize war is not a display of glorious deeds, but bloodbaths, betrayal, and death, which Kaius at least knows full well. I've always felt that Boranel, despite his age, would make a better king than either of them, but Galifar is long gone.
Krozen, well, my opinion of him was kind of what started this thread in that I view him as a clear-cut villain, but that doesn't mean he's not a complex villain. I'll admit that my disdain of him stems from similar views I have of priests in the Catholic Church (a faith I grew up in), so I'm not totally objective here, but when I think of someone who represents the church well, I think of someone humble, welcoming, and caring of their constituency. With Krozen, I see a man of hubris who flaunts his piety like a throw rug. The fact he's willing to consort with his own enemies means, to me, he's no better than the people he's fighting against, and that lends no respect his way from me. The mere fact Thrane is a theocracy is a huge problem because religion and government don't mix. Hopefully, if nothing else, someone finds out what Krozen is up to.
I'll admit that my disdain of him stems from similar views I have of priests in the Catholic Church...
Which is something I've heard from quite a few people over the years. But the Church of the Silver Flame ISN'T the Catholic Church. It's a faith dedicated to battling evil in a world in which that evil unquestionably exists. When we think of a "witch hunt", we think of it as a bad thing - paranoia causing people to engage in groundless torture and murder. But in Eberron, evil is real. There ARE rakshasa, vampires, evil lycanthropes, demons, and more out there. There ARE evil wizards. The very source of the religion itself is based on a terrible sacrifice made to hold the Overlords in bondage - fiends that cannot be killed and could rise again unless we stay vigilant. Looking again to the Silver Crusade, well, let's just look at the Dragonshard:
The battle was long and brutal. Today, many assume that the lycanthropes were hunted prey, fleeing from the overwhelming force of the Church of the Silver Flame. Little could be further from the truth. The typical wereboar is far deadlier than the average templar of the Flame, and even if the soldier defeats his prey, one good bite is all it takes to transfer the curse and create a new wereboar. Evil werewolves infected entire villages, and wererats took great pleasure in infecting templars, imprisoning them until the curse took hold, and then sending them against their former allies. Clever lycanthropes fanned the puritans' paranoia toward the shifters, and these mistrustful folk massacred hundreds of shifters before someone could prove to them that shifters did not carry the curse.
It ENDED as a classic witchhunt, as the vengeful Aundairians (Dariznu's spiritual ancestors) sought to root out every last shapeshifter. But it began as a terrifying stand against a supernatural plague that could have destroyed human civilization on Khorvaire.
There are three orders in the church. The Ministers are the humble folk who care for their consituency. The Friars are missionaries. Both of these orders fight evil by nuturing good - leading by example, acting with compassion and charity.
Then there are the Templars. They are the warriors of the church, the front line that defends the innocent from the unnatural evils of the world. They are not supposed to be gentle. It's not their job to guide the people: they are there to protect them.
Looking to the past, what do we know about Krozen? He served as a holy warrior. Right there, that says Templar. And of the three orders, the Templars are the least likely to be "humble and welcoming". What do we know, by canon? He wanted to strengthen the church in the lives of the common people and to keep Thrane's military strong. He wanted to defend the church and the people. And he did both these things.
Now, he turned to questionable methods to accomplish these things. Which again raises the question of how he started, and who he targeted. Did he use his first whispering campaign to bring down another noble, wonderful bishop purely to advance his political career? If so, he's the jack@ss you say. But if he was bringing down a corrupt, vile politician with no interest in the people - someone too connected to challenge openly, but someone abusing his position and his people - then that's a different story.
As for the dark magic... it again comes to WHY. Just going back to the existing text: "Although he was ruthless, his loyalty and devotion to the Silver Flame remained true . . . at least until the Mourning. Cyre’s destruction rocked Krozen to the core, leaving him reeling with fear. The nation’s destruction inflamed the seeds of paranoia that had already begun to blossom in his shadowed mind."
So as I see it, he used politics as a weapon in his early career. He disagreed with the leadership of the Keeper. But until the Mourning, he was still entirely true to the faith. It's in the aftermath of the Mourning that he has truly strayed - and as I've said, the impact of the Mourning can't be underestimated. The fact that some people were, essentially, driven insane by it should come as no surprise.
And THEN let's look at another way that the Church of the Silver Flame isn't like any of our religions. FIENDS ARE REAL. This is an unquestioned, absolute fact. We don't know about the gods - but fiends? They're out there. And if you're tied to the Flame, there's is an Overlord of corruption that has a connection to your soul - who is going to be testing you. Krozen has quite likely fallen prey to Bel Shalor's influence, on some level. It's exactly what the Shadow In The Flame is about - convincing people that the ends justify the means, that every last lycanthrope has to be destroyed even if that means innocent shifters die, getting people with the best intentions to do terrible things.
So my point is that YOUNG Krozen would never have consorted with fiends. Older Krozen has become convinced that he HAS to - that somehow it is necessary, for all that it is absolutely against the principles of the Church he's still trying to strengthen. Is he going increasingly mad? Does he truly just not care? Or does he have a plan - does he have an endgame that will somehow justify every terrible thing that he's done?
As I said, for ME, that's the most interesting option. I think Erandis is a tragic figure, but there's absolutely no question that she's a villain; she doesn't even give a damn about her own minions. Kaius is a complex figure, but I don't see him as remorseful. As such, I find that the most interesting use of Krozen is to make him different from either. Not the cardboard evil mastermind. Not the ends-justify-the-means remorseless ruler. Rather, someone who truly believes in his faith, who would love to bring about a world that he has no place in - but that the only way that he can see to do that is a path that's getting darker and darker. Someone who's really, really good at the Machiavellian games - and so that's what he's using. And someone who's likely losing sight of just how far he has fallen - possibly through his own weakness, possibly due to madness, possibly due to the malign influence of Bel Shalor.
He could be a man who "flaunts his piety like a throw rug." But I think he's far more interesting if his faith is true. If, on some level, he hates the path he has taken - but believes it is necessary. Clearly it is hubris for him to believe that the fate of Thrane is in his hands, that he's the only one who can save it from the Mourning, that the Keeper and the other Cardinals will lead it astray. But hubris doesn't have to mean haughty. I see Krozen as a brilliant, charismatic, and deeply intense individual - someone who has earned the loyalty of those who follow him. Like I said, while you can easily do a Knights of Thrane vs the Cardinal's Guards Dumas-inspired game, I think it could be very interesting to play an Agents of Krozen game - a black ops team acting to protect the nation by any means necessary. I might run a game in which you're tasked with eliminating Dariznu, for example... maybe even have an infernal warlock as a PC, representing Krozen's own efforts to tap dark magic and use it to acheive the goals of the church.
Now, concerning Krozen's background as a Templar, I have to wonder to what degree he still sees himself as a defender; in his eyes, is he the Thin Silver Line standing between all the innocents of Thrane and the forces of darkness that would destroy it? Furthermore, if he thinks that he is the strongest, most capable defender of Thrane, and nobody else is as effective in protecting Thrane as he is, I can see how he could justify anything. "I have to do this, because nobody else will."
Of course, it can be taken a little farther; yes, he recognizes the extremity of his actions, and he does recognize that they're evil. However, again, he has to do them because nobody else will. But, if you factor in recognition of the evil acts, it becomes more complex: I do these things because nobody else will, but also so nobody else will have to.
Now, the question is what are the defining moment in Krozan's life? Obviously, the Mourning was one. However, what got him to be a templar in the first place? Was his own family slaughtered by a daemon or undead conjured by a Karrnathi or Aundairian wizard? Did he watch such a creature butcher neighbors and friends? Maybe a lover or fiancée?
I think Krozen might have seen such an event, and said to himself, "Never again!" That is the driving force and his rationalization for anything. Spurred by a traumatic event, Krozen became a defender. As he rose in power, his successes were constantly overshadowed by new threats arising, forcing him to adopt increasingly questionable measures in order to ensure, "Never again!"
Note: Also, the radical nature of the Aundarian branch of the Silver Flame never crossed my mind, and explains why the Thrane-Aundair fighting was so nasty; not only was it a civil war, but it was also a religious war, making it a religious civil war. Nasty stuff.
Of course, it can be taken a little farther; yes, he recognizes the extremity of his actions, and he does recognize that they're evil. However, again, he has to do them because nobody else will. But, if you factor in recognition of the evil acts, it becomes more complex: I do these things because nobody else will, but also so nobody else will have to.
Exactly. Mind you, this is directly at odds with the quote John Lynch pointed out, so I'm not saying that people who don't do this are WRONG. But I feel that it makes him a more interesting character - whether used as patron or villain - if one factors this in. He believes that Jaela won't do what must be done - but he also believes that she can't do what must be done. She's the Keeper of the Flame. She needs to remain pure in order to act as the spiritual anchor for all the people of the faith. He'd go out of his way to STOP her from doing the things he's done. Beyond that, I like the idea that he is ruthless in stamping out cults of the Whispering Flame and the like, and in eliminating corrupt priests. He's embraced the darkness to use it against the darkness, among other reasons because he's good at it - he is a brilliant Machiavellian manipulator. But he still feels that an IDEAL world would have no place for the monster he's becoming. Again, the serial killer who preys on even worse serial killers.
So if your players are the black-and-white soldiers of honor and light, he may simply be a foe who must be brought down. If you're more in the shades of gray, you may find that there are serious problems facing the Church and Thrane that can't easily be solved in an honorable manner - and that Krozen's methods may be the best solution. You don't have to like it - just as he doesn't. But that's where the "Krozen's Agents" game comes to mind. You're not the heroes of the church. In fact, if all goes well, the people will never know you exist. But you're eliminating the other threats they should never know about.
Now, the question is what are the defining moment in Krozan's life?
Good question!
Note: Also, the radical nature of the Aundarian branch of the Silver Flame never crossed my mind, and explains why the Thrane-Aundair fighting was so nasty; not only was it a civil war, but it was also a religious war, making it a religious civil war. Nasty stuff.
It's another thing often forgotten. There's more to the Church of the Silver Flame than Thrane, and Thrane wasn't even a theocracy when the Last War broke out. It's got a stronghold in Aundair, though admittedly a very extreme branch. But it's also still well-placed in Breland, and it had followers in Cyre as well. A key point here is that the underlying theme of the Church of the Silver Flame is to eliminate evil - especially supernatural evil. When it comes to nation fighting nation, that's politics. So I'm a Brelish follower of the Flame and sent against Thrane. So? Breland is not EVIL, and Thrane as a political entity is not GOOD. if an army of demons suddenly break through a manifest zone from Shavarath, then I would expect all followers of the Flame to set aside any conflict to fight this common threat; that's protecting the world from evil. But the Thrane-Breland conflict is a struggle between nations, and you had Purified on both sides.
With that said, I believe that a number of fervant followers of the Flame did defect from their nations when Thrane became a theocracy, on the basis that a Galifar united behind the Church would bring about a better world. But those who didn't shift allegiance at that point reconciled their political loyalties and religious beliefs.
I'll also point to the church in Stormreach, specifically called out as opposing the Theocracy on the grounds that tying the church to political affairs and a particular nation in this way does distract it from its true purpose. This is the attitude you'd probably have from the typical Brelish soldier who follows the Flame but remains politically loyal to Boranel. Their faith is still true. But they follow the FLAME, not the nation of Thrane.
From my own perspective I see Krozen as something of a seasoned and perhaps a little tired veteran. He's spent so much of his life trying to fight the good fight, trying to do the right thing. And now with so many ills plagueing the world (the Mourning, the cold war between nations infighting in the church etc etc) he may just be slipping a little. Krozen possess the same faith that he always has had, the absolute conviction that the Silver Flame will guide and direct him at it's instrument in doing good.
But he's also reached that stage where Krozen has more of a "oh not again" approach. A kind of jaded and mayhap a little bitter view. After fighting the darkness (figurative and literal) for so long, he's wondering if occassionaly courting the darkness to achieve his ends in a more efficient and effective manner can be done. And thus far his most grey or even dark of actions hasn't cut him off from the Silver Flame or brought him rebuke. After all if he were comitting dark deeds would the flame not cut him off and mark him out as evil like that which he has fought all his life? Well it hasn't happened yet so he must still be doing the right thing.
In a certain sense I feel sorry for Krozen. His life and circumstances have led up to where he is now, his conviction perhaps the only thing keeping him going. I'm sure a man as active as he is would have normally burned out by now. But the Cardinal endures, even though he does much of his work through proxy these days. Preventing another Mourning and ensuring that the Silver Flame continues to spread it's message of goodness and righteouness is of tantamount importance.
In my mind his a matyr and a monster. Someone who knowingly has fallen on his sword to a certain degree, doing dark deeds for the right (relative) reasons. But how far will he slip before it is too late?
Sorry, but that's my take on the Cardinal, and I run the Cardinal how I see him. A religously oriented version of King Kiaus the Third. Not exactly an *itch, just a person who is comfortable with his position of power.
...and teaches a corrupted doctrine of Salvation.
But the thing is that the Silver Flame isn't really about Salvation. It's about the constant struggle between light and darkness. The Silver Flame exists to protect us from the darkness. It's been holding the Overlords at bay since before humanity existed. By living virtuous lives we can join the Flame and strengthen it so it can continue to protect future generations. But there's no end to it. There's no Judgment Day. For that matter, there's no Hell; live a bad life, and you'll go to Dolurrh along with the people who simply live unprincipled lives. Dedication to the Flame is about sacrifice - fighting to defend the innocent and to guide the misguided. And as I said before, there is no question that these forces of evil exist. The modern church of Thrane exists because one of the Overlords escaped and almost destroyed Thrane. The Pure Flame is strong in Aundair because the lycanthropes could have destroyed the nation without the intervention of the Flame.
This isn't really about Krozen - it's just another point of how the Silver Flame isn't Catholicism. There's no aspect of creationism in the Church. The Silver Flame didn't create the world. And joining the Flame when you die isn't a reward; it's a chance to continue to protect the innocent after you yourself have fallen.
When a faith is based on militant principles, it can be easy for people to go too far in pursuing those principles - hence the Aundairian persecution of the Shifters in the wake of the Purge. Hence my assertion that Krozen began as a Templar - someone used to seeing the faith in the context of war, as opposed to a guiding minister. But again, Eberron is a world in which demons truly do exist, where Overlords and Daelkyr are waiting to rise and wreak havoc, where Quori haunt our very dreams. The Chuch of the Silver Flame exists to protect us from those threats. Dedication to the church is about sacrifice for the good of others - about trying to make the world a better place.
A religously oriented version of King Kiaus the Third.
And that's certainly a viable approach. But as I've said, we've already got a Kaius... and we've already got a manipulative, faithless pontiff in Erandis. Thus, I like doing something different with Krozen.
*Heavy Stuff*
Keith's response to Elton74
I'm just going to point out that I can see Elton's interpretation as just fine. Actually, thinking about it, I really don't see Vol as a "manipulative, faithless pontiff," so if Elton doesn't see/use her as such, then it leaves Krozan open to be that.
Thinking about it more, characteristics and personalities of NPCs depends on who you use. If you never use Vol, how will the other NPCs that you use change? I rarely conceive of using the Aurum, which impacts how I portray the other power groups. I love to use the Emerald Claw, and since I don't have the Aurum, the EC engages in some labyrinthine plots (but with enough muscle to make it fun!). Hah. My players hated them so much that when they suspected that the guys in cloaks might be EC, one of them readied an action to punch out a guy if he screamed, "KARRNATH TRIUMPHANT!" (the EC battle cry).
Anyways. My point is that, depending on who you use, the others may change. Elton, if you had a radiant idol or cult of the dragon below leader who was just using his worshipers in order to get power, would Krozen change at all?
I'm just going to point out that I can see Elton's interpretation as just fine.
I never said it wasn't. MY interpretation of Krozen in this thread specifically clashes with the ECG statement that Krozen "represents the worst excesses" of the church. There's no right or wrong, just different options.
Actually, thinking about it, I really don't see Vol as a "manipulative, faithless pontiff,"
Again, nothing wrong if you don't. But let me clarify my statement a little more.
You mentioned that the EC is a big bad guy in your campaign, and that their catchphrase is "Karrnath triumphant." A fine choice, as Karrnathi patriotism is supposed to be a dirving focus of the EC... coupled with the idea that the Queen of the Dead will raise Karrnath to its rightful place. But will she? In your game, would Erandis ever shout "Karrnath triumphant!" with true feeling? Does she actually care about Karrnath?
In MY campaign, the answer is no. Karrnath means nothing to her. Why should it? It's a human nation that's younger than she is. It has nothing to do with her destiny. The same is true with the Blood of Vol. She never followed the faith. Because it's NOT the religion of her family; it's something the people of Lhazaar and Karrnath came up with, based on some ideas of her family. She knows the catchphrases. And she IS the big lich on the block. But it was never her religion. She was never looking for the Divinity Within. Because she KNOWS what she needs to do to reach that divinity, and it was never about giving blood or fighting the Sovereigns.
As I see it, Erandis' story is one of survivor's guilt and obsession. Her family was utterly erradicated because they created her - and she failed to accomplish what she was born to do. And she's had over three thousand years to brood on that, while still having to hide from dragons and Deathguard. I see her as being utterly determined to acheive her destiny - to ensure that her family's sacrifice was not in vain. Humans? Who cares about them. They live a century at best - again, she's been working at this for millenia. Karrnath? Galifar? Her destiny isn't to rule a nation - it's to transcend life and death. Galifar's rise and fall is only interesting to the degree that it helps her acheive HER destiny.
So, when I say "manipulative pontiff", I DON'T mean "a powerhungry person abusing her position in her church for wealth or political gain". That's her inner circle, people who began as priests of the Blood of Vol and abandoned the faith for pragmatic reasons. Erandis is older than the Blood of Vol. She didn't abandon her faith; she never had it in the first place. If people choose to believe it, that's great. If they actually find power from this divinity within, good for them. But her focus is acheiving HER destiny - and the others only matter in what they can do for her.
Key point: I see Erandis as extremely passionate about her goal. I do see her as a tragic figure, who has suffered a terrible loss that has pushed her to the edge of madness. And I see her as having absolutely no empathy for the little mortals who are ready to die for her; her obsession is too great for that.
So whether "corrupt" is the right word, what I don't see Erandis as is someone who is committed to her "faith". Likewise, I don't see Kaius as being terribly spiritual. Hence, I like Krozen as someone who IS committed to his faith - who does the terrible things he's done because of that comittment. Pretty much, exactly what you said in your previous post - he doesn't these things not simply because no one else will, but so no one else will have to.
But as you say, it's just an idea, and it all depends which NPCs you are using.
Isn't it cool that depending on how you look at a NPC you get a completely different NPC ;) You could run two campaigns with the same NPCs and still get a completely different outcome and the players would still not know what to expect.
Which is what I like - and one of the key reasons we've left things like the Mourning as mysteries. I like the fact that if I showed up and played in your campaign, I wouldn't know whether Krozen was a hypocrite or misguided... whether he wants to stop the Mourning from happening again, or whether he in fact caused it.
whether he wants to stop the Mourning from happening again, or whether he in fact caused it.
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The corruption runs deeper than we thought. The Shadow in the Flame whispered dark ideas to Krozen, who sent out his agents to fulfill the Shadow's malevolent scheme. The Rajah imprisoned in Cyre was an eternal opponant of Bel Shalor.....and by manipulating Krozen, the Shadow in the Flame managed to eliminate one of his rivals, stop the Last War from destroying Khorvaire (and, by extension, destroying or eternally imprisoning Bel Shalor), and weakening the boundaries of his prison.
Krozen, of course, realizes he has been manipulated, but with a weapon (tool?) of such power at his fingers, he needs to figure out how to use it with better control, and without risking setting Bel Shalor free. To better protect Thrane, of course, and to promote peace in order to better spread the Glory of the Flame.
Krozen, of course, realizes he has been manipulated, but with a weapon (tool?) of such power at his fingers, he needs to figure out how to use it with better control, and without risking setting Bel Shalor free. To better protect Thrane, of course, and to promote peace in order to better spread the Glory of the Flame.
Seriously, I love the Claw. They're like the Eberron version of Nazis.
Uhm, yes. Actually. But they can also be protrayed as a bunch of thugs. Low level cannon fodder on one level, and on another, supervillians; and everywhere in between. As for Krozen starting the Mourning -- where did he get the courage to blow up a Creation Forge?
Doubtless he'd do it himself. He'd most likely send a few terror-- excuse me, PURITANS -- to blow one up in Cyre.
Doubtless he'd do it himself. He'd most likely send a few terror-- excuse me, PURITANS -- to blow one up in Cyre.
Well, per canon, he'd be more likely to use the Argentum or a similar secret arm based in Thrane. The Servants of the Pure Flame are actually strongest in Aundair, and Dariznu - who governs Thaliost by virtue of being the most influential Aundairian minister - has been rebuked by the Council of Cardinals multiple times for his behavior.
Obviously this is something you can ignore. It's just that there's a common vision that the Puritans are based in Thrane or a central pillar of the church... whereas by canon, Thrane is largely moderate (as reflected by overall popular support of the compassionate Keeper) and the Puritans are an extreme fringe movement.
Krozen certainly has elite agents, like the Argentum; they just may be a little cleverer and less blinded by zealotry than the Pure Flame.
Of course, hey, maybe DARIZNU set the Mourning in motion... among other reasons to shake up the lily-livered Council of Cardinals. Who said Krozen had to be behind everything?
Of course, hey, maybe DARIZNU set the Mourning in motion... among other reasons to shake up the lily-livered Council of Cardinals. Who said Krozen had to be behind everything?
Do you drop these ideas just to see what I'll come up with, or an I overestimating my creativity? Nevermind.
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Dariznu is an agent of the Dreaming Dark, mind seeded a long time ago.
The plan of the Dreaming Dark is, of course, to extend its influence into Khorvaire in order to subvert the governments, and eventually control them. They incited the Last War in order to fragment Galifar; with the Five Nations fighting against each other, they could be more easily manipulated as they are all concerned with winning the war. However, the heavy fighting that took place at times in the Last War consumed a great deal of resources, both those of the Five Nations and those of the Riedran government. Cyre could be an exception, though, by never accepting Riedran aid for some reason or another.
Now, by destoying Cyre in the Mourning, the Dreaming Dark accomplished two things:
1.) They eliminated a country that would not fall under their dominion
2.) They cooled the war enough that the fighting stopped, but it ended quickly enough, and indecisively enough, to be a rather nasty Cold War.
With the war over, but in a constantly tense situation, the nations are preoccupied with the balance of power among Khorvairan nations, thus making them more open to Riedran aid packages, and thus, Riedran influence.
Now, exactly how Dariznu pulled off the Mourning, I currently don't have an idea for. If you think of one, toss it up and we'll see. Still, though, Dariznu's actions in Thaliost serve to continually keep tensions high between Aundair and Thrane (and, if you want to take a broader geopolitical/strategic view, Karrnath as well), thus still serving the Dreaming Dark's ambitions.
The plan of the Dreaming Dark is, of course, to extend its influence into Khorvaire in order to subvert the governments, and eventually control them. They incited the Last War in order to fragment Galifar; with the Five Nations fighting against each other, they could be more easily manipulated as they are all concerned with winning the war. However, the heavy fighting that took place at times in the Last War consumed a great deal of resources, both those of the Five Nations and those of the Riedran government. Cyre could be an exception, though, by never accepting Riedran aid for some reason or another.
Now, by destoying Cyre in the Mourning, the Dreaming Dark accomplished two things:
1.) They eliminated a country that would not fall under their dominion
2.) They cooled the war enough that the fighting stopped, but it ended quickly enough, and indecisively enough, to be a rather nasty Cold War.
With the war over, but in a constantly tense situation, the nations are preoccupied with the balance of power among Khorvairan nations, thus making them more open to Riedran aid packages, and thus, Riedran influence.
Now, exactly how Dariznu pulled off the Mourning, I currently don't have an idea for. If you think of one, toss it up and we'll see. Still, though, Dariznu's actions in Thaliost serve to continually keep tensions high between Aundair and Thrane (and, if you want to take a broader geopolitical/strategic view, Karrnath as well), thus still serving the Dreaming Dark's ambitions.
Isn't it cool that depending on how you look at a NPC you get a completely different NPC ;) You could run two campaigns with the same NPCs and still get a completely different outcome and the players would still not know what to expect.
Which is what I like - and one of the key reasons we've left things like the Mourning as mysteries. I like the fact that if I showed up and played in your campaign, I wouldn't know whether Krozen was a hypocrite or misguided... whether he wants to stop the Mourning from happening again, or whether he in fact caused it.
Or both ;). Quite possibly whoever caused the Mourning did so because it was the only way they could see to end the War. That doesn't mean they want or are prepared to do something like that again. On the other hand they might go to great lengths to make sure that they aren't 'forced' to do something like that again. After all if they are willing to sacrifice a country to save a continent, why not sacrifice a city to save a country, a village to save a province, a king to save his people?
Coming back to Krozen, one of the things I like most about Eberron is that it avoids the simple (and in my opinion 'too easy') dichotomies of good/evil. I see no reason for Krozen: Martyr or Monster to be an either or question. The fact that he uses questionable methods does not make his desire to protect the innocent less noble. The fact that his reasons are noble does not make his methods less detestable. Labling a character as 'good' or 'a monster' makes them less human and therefore to me, less interesting. Arguably in the case of 'monsters' making them less human is exactly why we label them as such. If Krozen is a monster he is obviously not a 'proper' human and therefore 'proper' humans like us don't have to confront the fact that we might make exactly the same decisions were we put in his position.
One is I play a cleric/assasin member of the Silver Flame, and the Krozen could make for an interesting story arc. Where is everyone getting all this information? Its amazing.
Secondly, I almost feel as if I need to defend the Catholic Church. As a devout Catholic who has studied many different forms of Christianity, Catholicism I think is unfairly attacked due to the sex scandals. Which I agree the church has gotten wrong. Just had to put that out there.
This is a fascinating read. Two points of interest to my post if you will indulge, as Im not a poster by any means.
One is I play a cleric/assasin member of the Silver Flame, and the Krozen could make for an interesting story arc. Where is everyone getting all this information? Its amazing.
Secondly, I almost feel as if I need to defend the Catholic Church. As a devout Catholic who has studied many different forms of Christianity, Catholicism I think is unfairly attacked due to the sex scandals. Which I agree the church has gotten wrong. Just had to put that out there.
There may be a Dragonshard article out there, but the bulk of our information comes from either Five Nations or the Eberron Campaign Guide.
Concerning your defense of the Catholic Church, surewhatever cool. The people who link the Catholic Church to the Church of the Silver Flame are really missing the point of both, and of the setting. Nothing in Eberron is even close to analagous to anything in the real world, and attempting to draw more than (very loose) parallels will most likely only do a disservice to both.
There may be a Dragonshard article out there...
A few, actually... and these certainly influence a lot of my posts.
www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/2...
www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/2...
www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/2...
If there's a specific point you're curious about a source on, JSM, feel free to ask.
Secondly, I almost feel as if I need to defend the Catholic Church.
I understand your frustration, but as Ogiwan says, it shouldn't be an issue. While it's always possible for people to project their own images - positive or negative - onto the faiths of Eberron, none of them are intended to be direct parallels to real-world religions. And where the faiths of Eberron are MOST like our religions are that, generally speaking, they all have their positive points and praiseworthy people... and their extremists and corruption. Most of the religions - even the Blood of Vol - are based on positive principles, and this is what allows them to thrive. The Emerald Claw doesn't represent the majority of the followers of the Blood of Vol. The Followers of the Pure Flame aren't the majority of the Silver Flame. And so on. The point of Eberron is that even a force that is, overall, a compassionate force for good can nonetheless have flaws... but that shouldn't negate the good it does.
Concerning your defense of the Catholic Church, surewhatever cool. The people who link the Catholic Church to the Church of the Silver Flame are really missing the point of both, and of the setting. Nothing in Eberron is even close to analagous to anything in the real world, and attempting to draw more than (very loose) parallels will most likely only do a disservice to both.
Whetehr or not drawing parallels is bad or not is topic of another discussion, and one we had some time ago in a long thread. Suffice to say I disagree with you on this account.
As for the Silver Flame and the medieval Catholic Church, the reason people draw paralels is because both are monoistic faiths (although technically the Silver Flame is better described as monoistic-like), both have a strong militant branch, both have a strict hierarchy more or less along the same lines (certainly the same titles), both have a single religious active leader, both have official religious texts and both have a strong temporal power (at least in Thrane). With that temporal power comes corruption. Of course, both are also about sacrifice, protecting its believers and opposing evil - it is important to remember that the Silver Flame is not an evil religion. The focus on the Silver Flame's corruption has to do with the fact that the DM is to write adventures, and there is little adventure about those Silver Flamers who do not belong to that small group of corrupt and/or fanatic individuals.
It is important to remember though that just because parallels are drawn by some people, that does not mean anybody thinks they are the same thing. Eberron is a fantasy game. The goal of parallels to provide the players a shorthand idea on a particular subject. It is also mostly a reference to popular media representation and common prejudices on a particular group and not even close to the real thing (otherwise it would defeat the purpose). I hope that nobody believes that the way the Silver Flame is represented in an Eberron camapaign is in any way a representation of a RL insitute like the Catholic Church.
The focus on the Silver Flame's corruption has to do with the fact that the DM is to write adventures, and there is little adventure about those Silver Flamers who do not belong to that small group of corrupt and/or fanatic individuals.
They're always good for victims. Or to misguide the players into thinking that they're dealing with corrupt members only to discover they're perfectly good members who aren't fanatical. They can also just be part of the scenery to provide the players with an important bit of information.
My Eberron game is rapidly approaching the Epic tier, so that means shaking up the status quo but good. I'm a little worried about filling in 10 levels of adventure with one plot, so I've set myself up with multiple apocalyptic events setting off rapid-fire around the world for my PCs to get involved in.
One of these events is that Jeala has taken the Shadow of the Flame into herself, entirely, in order to purify the Flame of its influence. (It seemed like a good idea at the time when she did it). She's currently MIA, and the PCs (one of which is Jeala's second cousin and a Knight Templar of the Silver Flame) are going to need to find her and help her out with the whole Sealed Evil in a Can thing.
In the meantime, though, Jeala's gambit did pay off, and the Silver Flame is actually free of Bel Shalor. Cults of he Whisper in the Flame are frantic as they've suddenly lost their power, and the external force of corruption to do evil in the name of good is gone.
So what does this mean for Krozen? Is he so throughly corrupted that even absent outside pressure to do evil deeds, he'll still resort to them when he thinks they're neccessary? Will he gradually realize the error of his ways and work to reform himself as a just protector of his flock? Will he suddenly break under the guilt of all he's done and spiral into madness, commiting even worse atrocities?
Normally I'd say that the more interesting story would be to have Krozen either remain a self-agrandizing monster with a martyrdom complex or go insane. But I think if he, and the rest of the church, become the best exemplars of good their human natures can allow them to be it poses a more interesting quandry for my PCs.
Free Jeala from the Shadow of the Flame and risk it once again corrupting the Flame and all of it's most devout adherrents, or let an innocent girl remain the prisoner of one of the most evil beings in existance to keep the Silver Flame pure of evil intent? (And more importantly, which do you think Bel Shalor wants them to do?)
But yeah, my individual campaign aside, it raises an interesting question. What happens when you take Krozen, and remove Bel Shalor's influence?
I almost feel as if I need to defend the Catholic Church. As a devout Catholic who has studied many different forms of Christianity, Catholicism I think is unfairly attacked due to the sex scandals. Which I agree the church has gotten wrong. Just had to put that out there.
Not really. I'm still a Catholic (I've never been great at practicing my faith, but I try), but my ire runs more towards the people within the religion, not the religion itself. I do have a personal beef, but that's not for this thread. And I know the Silver Flame isn't the Catholic Church, but the parallels are certainly there, just as how the halflings of the Talenta Plains could be Native Americans, the shifters in the Tushana Tundra of Sarlona could be Inuits, Xen'drik is like the jungles of Africa (it was a hot spot for wealthy hunters in the late 19th/early 20th century, which is analogous to the current age), Darguun has some similarities to Sengoku-era Japan (the khesh'dar being very ninja-like), the elves of Valenar have some parallels to the Mongols, and so on.
Now, an interesting interpretation of Krozen I came up with The Operative from the movie Serenity. He was someone who believed so strongly in what he was doing that no matter how far he let himself fall, it was all for the greater good. He's aware of how evil he is, but does it anyway. That could be one way Krozen is played.
As for the Silver Flame and the medieval Catholic Church, the reason people draw paralels is because both are monoistic faiths (although technically the Silver Flame is better described as monoistic-like), both have a strong militant branch, both have a strict hierarchy more or less along the same lines (certainly the same titles), both have a single religious active leader, both have official religious texts and both have a strong temporal power (at least in Thrane). With that temporal power comes corruption. Of course, both are also about sacrifice, protecting its believers and opposing evil - it is important to remember that the Silver Flame is not an evil religion.
It's certainly true that of all of Eberron's religions, the CotSF is the one with the greatest resemblance to the medieval Catholic church. All those points of connection are valid. It's just that people often overlook key difference.
* The Silver Flame itself is not a deity. It didn't create the world or humanity. Instead, it was CREATED by the sacrifice of others. It's a force of energy that holds demons at bay and empowers others to fight evil.
* Tied to this, the CotSF is about defense of the living, not salvation of souls. Joining with the Silver Flame is not a reward, nor is going to Dolurrh a punishment. The Flame does not judge you. If your soul is pure and you have walked the right path, you can join the Flame after death, but if anything, this is a sacrifice: your spirit will spend eternity holding back demons (albeit in an abstract, gestalt form) as opposed to the eternal rest of Dolurrh (if you accept "oblivion" as "rest"... but it's not a place of punishment.).
* The CotSF is a practical organization that exists to defend people from concrete threats. Marauding werewolves, cunning demons, undead - these aren't just myths or stories, they really exist. The "militant arm" of the CotSF is a cross between the Men in Black and the Jedi Knights. Their task isn't to spread the faith by force, or even to defend the faithful; it's to defend all innocents against the darkness. The Templars went to Aundair to fight werewolves, despite the majority of the people of Aundair being Vassals at the time. This resulted in many Aundairians converting the the faith, but this was based on "The Flame came and saved me and my family from death after half the people I know were brutally killed - I'm joining their team". And yes, one imagines the Keeper hoped this would be the case; the CotSF has always been about leading by example. But there's no real concept of "infidel", in part because the CotSF isn't about the worship of a god - it's about the defense of the innocent.
I could go on, but there's really no point. And please don't take this as me making any judgments on real world faiths, because that's not what this board is for - I don't want to get into an argument as to whether religion X is about defending the living, because hey, maybe it is. I don't know, and it's not the subject of the thread.
With that said: Yes, even though the faiths of Eberron and the nations of Eberron may not be intended to be direct ties to real world cultures or religions, there are certainly touchstones, and if using those touchstones is helpful to you, great. The CotSF ISN'T the Catholic Church. But if the image of a monastary, or a crypt, or a particular ceremony helps with your campaign and seems to YOU to fit, great. The Dhakaani empire ISN'T Feudal Japan... but if thinking of the Khesh'dar as ninjas helps you get a handle on them, excellent. Karrnath isn't supposed to be Russia, Prussia, or Germany. But if aspects of one of those gives you ideas, run with it.
So I guess that at the end of the day, what I'm saying is that if you want to map the strengths or failings of a particular religion on the CotSF, it's not my place to try to stop you. Mainly, I just want to be sure that people consider the possibilities of the faith as written, and the ways in which it is unique just to see if there are stories there being overlooked.
The focus on the Silver Flame's corruption has to do with the fact that the DM is to write adventures, and there is little adventure about those Silver Flamers who do not belong to that small group of corrupt and/or fanatic individuals.
And here I vehemently disagree. This is what makes me sad - people jump on the fanatic and corrupt because they are EASY stories, and as a result, the entire faith is colored with that brush (and I'm talking about Eberron WRITERS, not simply players - a lot of source material falls into this trap, something both James Wyatt and I have been frustrated by in the past). So let me throw out a few ideas about adventures involving the church that don't involve corrupt or fanatic individuals.
* Decades ago, a CotSF priest helped a local noble defeat a great evil stemming from a manifest zone to Shavarath. The priest has remained in the keep on this spot to guard it, and a village has risen around it. He's old, but has a reputation as a great exorcist and someone who can deal with demonic infections - things Jorasco can't cure. When the party is struck with a particularly vile curse, or when someone they love is possessed, this priest may be the only person who can help them. He is also a great source of information about fiends. But again, he is old (and as such physically frail) and has a duty to watch the area - so he can do rituals, but he can't FIGHT. As such, he's sort of a low-level Jaela... someone who can provide advice or ritual aid, but if a true threat arises would need to turn to the players for help. And perhaps, in the future, that threat from Shavarath will rise again - and now the PCs will know the area.
* In general, the role of "I've discovered a great evil that I don't have the power to fight" is a classic pulp-campaign interaction between SF priest and PC. The purpose of the CotSF is to protect the innocent from evil. They have scholars. They have rituals. But they don't have a lot of soldiers with the power of player characters. In 3.5 terms, most templars are low-level warriors and most priests are experts or adepts. It does have greater champions, but they are few and far between - so in a Points of Light style campaign, by the time the village friar could call those powers to bear it might simply be too late to stop whatever the problem is. Thus, the appeal to the PCs.
* In a more noir campaign, a SF priest could be the person struggling to do good in a world that's too dark for such light. The person trying to keep the charitable clinic open despite the pressure from the Boromar Clan... or possibly even Jorasco, as the efforts of this compassionate healer are actually hurting the profits of the neighborhood Jorasco healer. Such a character won't be coming to the PCs to complain about demons; but they might come across a Boramar squad setting fire to her shrine, or what have you.
* The SF isn't all about priests. You could easily have a Robin Hood scenario where the local lord has put out a bounty on a group of outlaws... who turn out to be a group of vigilantes dedicated to the Silver Flame (and don't forget, archery is part of the faith of the Flame). They aren't ATTACKING the baron, because again, you're not supposed to combat human evil with slaughter - but they are trying to change his ways by undermining his corrupt administration and ties to local bandits. Alternately, the lord could have a dark secret (head of lycanthrope warren, vampire, cultist of the Dragon Below) and the group are opposing him based on that. When the PCs show up, they may not even realize the outlaws are SF followers (although the leader uses silver arrowheads made from the melted coins taken from the baron's coffers) and take the job to stop these "bandits" from the baron; when the true situation is revealed, what will they do?
* When the PCs are framed in a corrupt town - one largely infested with a Cult of the Dragon Below or Quori agents - the local church of the Silver Flame may be the only place they can find sanctuary. The same could occur in a classic "zombie outbreak" scenario. SF churches are typically fortified precisely so they can serve as a safe haven in such a crisis.
* The Silver Flame has established a monstary on the edge of the Mournland to care for twisted victims of the Mourning. It also serves as a final stop and place of rest for adventurers taking that route into or out of the Mourning. It doesn't need to play a vital role in the adventure; but it allows the PCs to see the SF acting in a purely charitable way, in addition to offering the PCs themselves shelter. There's no fanaticism or corruption here - just compassion and a desire to ease pain. Of course, if you want to make it part of the adventure, have Mourning-twisted mutants go mad and start slaughtering everyone while the PCs are there resting... again establishing that the priests don't have the power to FIGHT this kind of threat, and have actually put themselves in grave danger to try to aid the sick.
* The PCs are engaged in an activity that is unknowingly serving the interests of an evil power (Dreaming Dark mind seed, Aurum concordian, Lord of Dust, etc). They clash with an agent of the Argentum, only to have the agent reveal the true nature of the mission. The agent is no match for them, which is again important in establishing that the PCs are the heroes. But the agent has information they need to find the right path - and can help them cturn the tables on the real bad guy.
* Tira Miron was approached by a shard of the Flame - a Couatl - who empowered her and charged her with a mission. A couatl spirit or angel could act as a divine advisor, or potentially merge with a player as the justification for a Divine Boon or series of Grandmaster Training feats... in order to face a great danger, of course.
And so on, and so on. I just made those up off the top of my head. Beyond that you've got Shulassakar, disenfranchised priests of Stormreach, and I'd better stop now before I ramble on forever. But in short, I think there's tons of ways to use the CotSF as a positive force; it doesn't need to always be about the fanatics and the fallen.
...disenfranchised priests of Stormreach...
These adventure hooks are awesome, very inspirational, but in the campaign that I'm currently running I couldn't really figure out a way to use any of them. The campaign is set in Stormreach and the PC's are mostly unscrupulous.
And then you said those four little words and everything came together.
Thanks for being really good at this stuff.
* The CotSF is a practical organization that exists to defend people from concrete threats. Marauding werewolves, cunning demons, undead - these aren't just myths or stories, they really exist.
Well, I am assuming the people in Medieval Europe at some level believed demons, witches, werewolves and undead are real. For people facing the serial killers/monsters that triggered some of the myths the threat was rather concreat.
Not bouting your comment about the concreteness of the evils of Eberron, but I am curious how common these monsters are in Eberron? Would the average farmer of Thrane or citizen of Wroat have seen anything of these things? For example, virtually everybody in RL knows you need silver weapon to fight lycanthropes, and when a group of PCs spots dire rats trailing them they immediately assume wererat. Some of the novels I read though, this is absolutely not the case in Eberron. When people were viciously murdered with claws and tooth, shifters were blamed and lycanthropes were extremely rare.
The focus on the Silver Flame's corruption has to do with the fact that the DM is to write adventures, and there is little adventure about those Silver Flamers who do not belong to that small group of corrupt and/or fanatic individuals.
And here I vehemently disagree. This is what makes me sad - people jump on the fanatic and corrupt because they are EASY stories, and as a result, the entire faith is colored with that brush (and I'm talking about Eberron WRITERS, not simply players - a lot of source material falls into this trap, something both James Wyatt and I have been frustrated by in the past). So let me throw out a few ideas about adventures involving the church that don't involve corrupt or fanatic individuals.
::snips some great story ideas::
And so on, and so on. I just made those up off the top of my head. Beyond that you've got Shulassakar, disenfranchised priests of Stormreach, and I'd better stop now before I ramble on forever. But in short, I think there's tons of ways to use the CotSF as a positive force; it doesn't need to always be about the fanatics and the fallen.
I never said that the CotSF cannot be used as a positive force. I played a Silver Flame goblin inquisitor who was rescued/converted by a worshipper of the Silver Flame and who was greatly impressed about the sacrifice those people made to protect a group of defenseless goblins against a marauding monster ;) In fact, that whole group consisted of worshippers of the Silver Flame, and they were not the fanatic type (although my goblin did wonder whether one or two did not just worship the Silver Flame for that extra +1 with some of the buff spells). The Lawful Good line is there for a reason.
The fact is that in most D&D sources plot-hooks are never about the sponsors and allies. Maybe they should, but usually they are simple and easily adaptable to individual campaigns. In that regards the allies and sponsors are not particular vital to the plothook (obviously, they are very important to the story the DM is telling). I am not sure I agree with the reasoning, especially since it creates a sense of rampant corruption and tyrany in the CotSF further highlighted by the fact that the Sovereign Host hardly gets any attention at all (whether as villains or heroes) and even the Dark Six are ignored (certainly compared to the SF and Blood of Vol). I do understand it though.
Well, I am assuming the people in Medieval Europe at some level believed demons, witches, werewolves and undead are real.
Certainly. The point I've made before, however, is that the general image people in our age associate with "witch hunt" is the unjustified torture of innocents based on superstitious fear. My point is that while the Silver Purge may resemble the Inquisition, and while it is supposed to have led to persecution of innocents in the end when the vengence-hungry Aundairians sought to eliminate every last lycanthrope, in the begining it was a struggle against forces that could have wiped out Galifar itself.
Not bouting your comment about the concreteness of the evils of Eberron, but I am curious how common these monsters are in Eberron? Would the average farmer of Thrane or citizen of Wroat have seen anything of these things?For example, virtually everybody in RL knows you need silver weapon to fight lycanthropes, and when a group of PCs spots dire rats trailing them they immediately assume wererat. Some of the novels I read though, this is absolutely not the case in Eberron. When people were viciously murdered with claws and tooth, shifters were blamed and lycanthropes were extremely rare.
Lycanthropes are extremely rare TODAY, because of the Purge. Two hundred years ago things were quite different. So yes, TODAY it would be odd to immediately blame lycanthropes for slaughter, because they're nearly extinct; it would be more logical to assume shifters, or gnolls, or phanes, or Ashbound druids, or imps, or displacer beasts, or horrid animals, or dragonborn, or drakes, or foulspawn, or gargoyles, or harpies, or ghosts whose "spirit touch" manifests as claws, or ghouls, or a hag, or... well, hopefully you get the idea. Lycanthropes are an odd choice precisely because of the efforts of the Silver Flame.
Now, back to your question: what has a farmer of Thrane or citizen of Wroat actually seen? First, there are certain things which can simply happen anywhere.
Undead. Undead are one of the most common threats across the board, because many forms of undead can simply occur "naturally". Ghosts can appear anywhere a spirit refuses to rest. Sorrowsworn are "drawn to locations where others have died in great numbers, such as battlefields" - well, there's a lot of battlefields around today. "In life, specters were murderous and vile humanoids" - who could thus manifest anywhere, and if anything are MORE of a threat in major cities. Ghouls can spontaneously manifest. And any of these threats will be even greater during a coterminous phase to Mabar or Dolurrh, or anywhere close to a manifest zone to such a place. So set the Order of the Emerald Claw aside: undead are a threat that can appear anywhere that people live and die.
Khyber. There are horrors beneath your feet, and you simply never know when something is going to make its way up from the depths. Aberrations. Psychotic Derro. Kobolds. Demons. Something the DM has just made up. These things could open a crack into your basement at any time. A Cult of the Dragon Below could spring up anywhere... and again, in some ways is MORE likely to appear where there are more people.
Possession. There's a reason we have exorcists of the Silver Flame. Ghosts, demons, others - they can and do possess people. Note that from a 4E mechanical perspective, this may well be an arbitrary DM thing - IE, not a creature with a dominate ability with a duration measured in rounds, but the equivalent of a ritual. The DM establishes what it takes to drive the possessor from its host, and at that point it may just be driven away, or it may be possible to fight it physically. How often does this happen? We've never said, and I'd leave it up to the DM. But again, enough that we think it's worth having an order of exorcists around.
Humans. Cultists of the Dragon Below. The Order of the Emerald Claw. Followers of the Mockery. Children of Winter seeking to spread disease. Ashbound. Evil wizards seeking to use their powers for personal gain. For that matter, the sociopathic changeling, the crazed shifter, the warforged follower of the Lord of Blades - these things ARE real threats. There's no particular reason to think a shifter is more dangerous than a human... but when someone is torn apart with claws and teeth, the shifter is the more logical suspect.
... I'm going to stop there, because I simply don't have time to keep going. But I COULD keep going. These things are all threats in big cities. Meanwhile, in smaller communities, a lot depends on where you are. Are you by the Mournland? You've got all kinds of crazy waiting to show up. Near the Eldeen Reaches? Wild beasts, horrid animals, Ashbound and Children of Winter (and there's a lot of shifters in the Ashbound, not even getting into shape-shifting druids). Near Droaam? Again, just skim down the monster manual. Near a manifest zone to Shavarath? Demons are suddenly an option. Near the King's Forest? You never know when that displacer beast is going to leave the jungle in search of prey.
Khorvaire is a world in which displacer beasts, trolls, and medusas are natural creatures. The closer you are to major cities, the more likely it is that hostile creatures will have been exterminated over the age of Galifar. But if you're in a village, you never know what might still be out there in the dark woods. You don't know what might crawl up from Khyber. Or what the next coterminous phase will bring.
Yes, people feared all these things in Medieval times. The reason we have most of them in D&D is because of myths and folk legends from our world. I'm just saying that in Eberron, undead are a practical, concrete threat that could pop up any day... and that in my opinion, DO pop up frequently enough that people want the SF around. Back in the day, the SF was essentially the Men in Black. The Lycanthropic Purge was simply a large-scale version of what templars did all the time: traveling around fighting horrible things wherever they could be found.
I never said that the CotSF cannot be used as a positive force... The fact is that in most D&D sources plot-hooks are never about the sponsors and allies.
Sure, but let's look at the examples I made up.
In the "Robin Hood" scenario, the SF folks aren't allies. They are the target. It simply turns out that the PCs didn't know the entire story and will have to decide what to do once they know it - which is very Eberron.
The "Monastary on the Mourning" doesn't have to be a "plot hook" - it can simply be an interesting waypoint on the way to your actual adventure into the Mournland. Or it can be a plothook in the sense of "Mournland mutants assault a Silver Flame monastary as the PCs are passing through." The local monks aren't allies or patrons. They just happen to be on the scene. But it's an opportunity to establish them as a force that's neither corrupt or fanatic.
In the Zombie Outbreak scenario, the adventure is the zombies. It might be caused by a Emerald Claw eldritch machine. The SF isn't driving the plot - but hey, the local SF church is the most fortified building in town, and the priest is glad to offer sanctuary.
My point is that the SF doesn't have to DRIVE the plot in order to be present and be seen as a positive force in the world.
...it creates a sense of rampant corruption and tyrany in the CotSF further highlighted by the fact that the Sovereign Host hardly gets any attention at all (whether as villains or heroes) and even the Dark Six are ignored (certainly compared to the SF and Blood of Vol).
Which is a shame. In The Shattered Land, I specifically involved a corrupt priest of the Sovereign Host precisely to show that these things aren't somehow limited to the CotSF. But I agree, it's something largely overlooked.
For example, in regards to undead, sure zombies and skeletons are fine. The problem arrises when you talk about undead critters that can spawn. I once saw a DM run such a monster as written and let it attack in a market square. In a few rounds there were a dozen more of the undead, and the PCs were obviously overwhelmed. It would have taken moments more for the city to be completely overrun and this was in 4E were creating spawn is a bit more difficult then simply touching a 1st level commoner (not much though). Sure, it was a beginning DM and most would not run undead like, but it does show one of the greatest weakness of these creatures unless of course you want to run a zombie acopalypse adventure with wraiths instead of zombies ;) Then again, I dislike vampire movies as well were vampirism is spread by a mere bite (yes, that includes Blade) or equally bad, were they kill their prey (Interview with a Vampire is a great story, but come on, if you slaughter a whole family there are going to be repercursions). Wouldn't even rumors of the existence of such creatures trigger an inquisition on the same level as there was against the lycanthropes?
Personally I tend to run campaigns a bit like how the Storytell system approaches the supernatural, as something that keeps itself hidden from the world at large and something that is not all that common. The difference being that learned people know it exists, and don't deny its existence automatically, although many commoners would do so if only out of self-protection. It is something that happens to others, most likely in countries like Karnnath or the Eldeen Reaches (assuming the commoner is from say Breland).
Which is a shame. In The Shattered Land, I specifically involved a corrupt priest of the Sovereign Host precisely to show that these things aren't somehow limited to the CotSF. But I agree, it's something largely overlooked.
Definitely a shame... I wish there was a bit more on these religions ;) Come to think of it, I am to blame myself as well. I don't think I have ever faced/used followers of the Dark Six outside the occassional hobgoblin, let alone run/played an adventure about the Sovereign Host. The adventures in which religion played a role have been all about the Dragon Below, False Idols, Blood of Vol and the occassional Silver Flame.
The reason why I am curious about the numbers of monsters and dangerous man-sacrificing cults is that when they become over abundant and too visibile my suspension of disbelief snaps. Make them too common and too vicious, and I really wonder how they survive. Why doesn't every nation has large powerful organizations who have the right to operate almost outside the law purely aimed at dealing with these threats?
This is exactly what the Church of the Silver Flame is: a powerful, extranational organization that exists to deal with these threats. Like I said, combine Men in Black and Jedi Knights and you've basically got the CotSF. Which is also why you have followers of the Silver Flame who are opposed to the theocracy of Thrane: because they believe that tying the church to a nation pulls it away from its core mission, which should stand above any political interest.
Beyond this - this is also why I was calling out the difference between a large city and a village. In the established cities of Khorvaire, you aren’t going to have “wandering monsters”. These things have been systematically exterminated over the course of the last 1,500 years
Villages are another story. When you’re up against the Towering Woods or the King’s Forest, along the Droaam border, near Poison Dusk territory in Q’barra – there ARE beasts in the woods. They don’t come out often, but the danger is there.
Ditto for Khyber. Looking to the examples I gave, none of these things are common. You don't EXPECT these things to happen. But we’re talking about something that could happen anywhere at any time, and people know it. Khyber is there below you, and there’s horrors there. Cults of the Dragon Below can take root anywhere. Will either of these things prove a threat in your lifetime? Maybe not. But you’ve certainly heard stories of places where they have. As for sacrificing cults, one key of the CotDB is that they spring up spontaneously. They often DON'T last long, because once they go too far, they are rooted out and destroyed. But they can always pop up again. And, of course, not all of them engage in mass murder; the Boromar Clan and Dassk are probably responsible for more deaths in Sharn than the Cults of the Dragon Below.
For example, in regards to undead, sure zombies and skeletons are fine. The problem arrises when you talk about undead critters that can spawn. I once saw a DM run such a monster as written and let it attack in a market square.
Looking to undead: Many of the spontaneously occurring undead – specters, ghouls, ghosts – don’t spawn. Wraiths do, but wraiths are traditionally spawned through portals to Mabar – which, among other things, would quickly become places that people would shun.
But you are right. Dangerous creatures that spawn are a serious, serious threat. The wraith shouldn't appear in a market square; if it did, this would be a severe event, much like a typical "zombie apocalypse" movie. Which brings us back to the Purge – because if you check the records, the driving factor of it was that at the time, lycanthropy was dangerously infectious. If it hadn’t been stopped, it could have swept across the continent. Other forms of “infectious” monsters are treated with the same severity. The discovery of a wraith will cause a immediate reaction with whatever forces are available being mobilized to bring an end to the threat before it can spread. Looking to normal wraiths, even setting aside the 6 Intelligence, I don’t see them as careful schemers – it’s not like they tactically plan out a cunning spawning scheme to hide from the SF, or that they even have any concept of the church. Vampires do, of course, and that’s why a smart vampire will be VERY careful about spawning, because the Silver Flame and the Deathguard will hunt them down pronto if exposed. It’s a public health issue.
So in a big city, you’re more likely to deal with a Cult of the Dragon Below or a Child of Winter sowing disease than a displacer beast. But these too are threats the SF will oppose. So as a citizen of Sharn, you COULD go your entire life without ever encountering a threatening “monster”… and likely, most do. On the other hand, you could also be menaced by a ghost, kidnapped by aberrant marked folks in league with the local cult of the Dragon Below, and escape only to run into a possessed shifter. Your mileage will vary.
Essentially, society is relatively safe now BECAUSE of efforts of groups like the CotSF. These things don't occur often in the modern day, but in this world there is always the threat that they COULD. Ghosts CAN appear. Something COULD come up from Khyber. And so you're happy to have the Templars and exorcists around, even if you hope you won't ever need one.
On the other hand, the Church's response if it gets out that there's a quori infestation/cult/whatever in the local Deneith enclave could be interesting.
Sure, it was a beginning DM and most would not run undead like, but it does show one of the greatest weakness of these creatures unless of course you want to run a zombie acopalypse adventure with wraiths instead of zombies ;)
Clarifying my point earlier... many of the "naturally occuring" undead don't spawn in this way. Looking to things like the wraith, the first key point is that I wouldn't see it manifesting spontaneously in a city. The sorts of places where wraiths manifest would be exactly the sorts of places that society who shun. Manifest zones to Mabar or Dolurrh are the big threats - and after troubles, those areas will develop a terrible reputation and people will avoid them. You could even have something like the newly discovered ruins of a Dhakaani village that's been overrun by wraiths; you're the Silver Flame strike force sent in to clear it out. Think Aliens with undead. I could see it as a one-shot.
If you want the spawners in public but want to limit the impact, you could certainly change the rules. Say that the wraith can't create spawn from minions - or at best, those spawn are themselves minions, and THEY can't create spawn. So the single wraith can create a few weak junior wraiths from villagers, but it doesn't increase exponentially.
With that said, the idea of Karrnath dropping "Wraith Bombs" onto villages in the war is a interesting image... and the "Wraith Apocalypse" scenario could be a fun one-shot.
Looking to vampires, bear in mind that vampires are not protected under the Code of Galifar (as noted in Sharn: City of Towers). You can destroy undead with no legal risks. So it's really in the best interests of vampires to conceal their undead nature and control spawning.
This is exactly what the Church of the Silver Flame is: a powerful, extranational organization that exists to deal with these threats....They don’t come out often, but the danger is there. Ditto for Khyber. Looking to the examples I gave, none of these things are common. You don't EXPECT these things to happen. But we’re talking about something that could happen anywhere at any time, and people know it.
Hmm. The thought that springs to mind is Hostage Rescue Teams/SWAT teams. They COULD be needed, but....how often are they really employed?
Hmm. The thought that springs to mind is Hostage Rescue Teams/SWAT teams. They COULD be needed, but....how often are they really employed?
The SF certainly has special teams, their own adventuring groups featuring guys like paladins, clerics, and invokers to deal with monsters.
The diverse nature of supernatural and mundane evil in Eberron though simply can't be dealt with just in this way, however. Some monsters thrive on the tolerances or moral weakness of society. Certain rakshasa focus their efforts on social corruption, and creatures like vampires tend to do better in large cities than in small areas. Because of such creatures, it makes senses that the Church is much more than a franchise of Ghostbusters offices, but also a social movement that works to strem the tide and influence of evil.
Because of such creatures, it makes senses that the Church is much more than a franchise of Ghostbusters offices, but also a social movement that works to strem the tide and influence of evil.
Exactly so. Beyond that, people can be or do evil without any sort of supernatural agency at work. The goal of the choose is to combat such evil through social action; for the bulk of the movement (Pure Flame aside), the sword is supposed to be a last resort for solving something that is a social problem. This is called out in the Hierarchy of Evil in Faiths of Eberron:
Those who choose evil. This includes all evil humanoids, warforged, and the like. Though the cliché of the Purified shows no mercy to evildoers, most real followers of the Flame seek to save these people, not destroy them. Human evil should be fought with compassion, diplomacy, and leading by example. Whenever possible, people should be shown the error of their ways and have the chance to correct their behavior. If this is not possible, the sword might be the only answer; it should never be the first choice, however.
This page also has a note that's worth remembering when comparing the SF to earthly religions:
They acknowledge the existence and divinity of other gods, such as the Sovereign Host and the Dark Six, and of the three great Dragons. They even honor them, knowing them worthy of respect.
Tira Miron was a paladin of Dol Arrah before turning to the Flame, and by and large a SF paladin and DA paladin will get along well and pursue the same goals. The point is that the Silver Flame is dedicated to a more focused cause than the SH. Dol Arrah is a goddess of honor and light, but she's also a war goddess; she's first and foremost about light-in-battle, and battle-the-dark is a secondary component. Her paladins may very well pursue that fight - but not with the same focus as the SF. The Sovereign follower may think his Purified neighbor has a stick up somewhere, and the Silver Flame follower may think the Vassal isn't doing enough to make the world a better place. But aside from extremist fringe groups, there's no direct hostility between the faiths as you see with the Blood of Vol.
I wonder, what, on a parallel-happy view like that, Cults of the Dragon Below would be parallel to? New religious movements, because they tend to be short-lived, watched by the authorities, and disorganized? But nobody makes the connection, because hardly anybody in the real world kidnaps their neighbors in order to sacrifice them to aberrant monstrosities.
I wonder, what, on a parallel-happy view like that, Cults of the Dragon Below would be parallel to? New religious movements, because they tend to be short-lived, watched by the authorities, and disorganized? But nobody makes the connection, because hardly anybody in the real world kidnaps their neighbors in order to sacrifice them to aberrant monstrosities.
In fiction, I think many of the Cults of the Dragon Below are strongly inspired by Lovecraft, as well as other noir and pulp short stories and novels.
Their "real-world" parallels would probably lie among non-mainstream religions such as Heaven's Gate, Branch Davidian, Aum Shinrikyo, the Family, etc. These groups commit violence or participate in suicide pacts as a result of their core beliefs. I think any doomsday cults would fall into this category since the idea of impending destruction can easily lead adherents to violence.
With the anti-cult movement that grew in the 1980s many groups of non-traditional religions were classified as cults. Labeled as "New Age" or "Occult," various unrelated groups were attributed sinister aims or methods under this umbrella: Scientology, Satanism, Hare Krishna, Antionism, Eyes Open, The Church Universal and Triumphant, The Theosophical Society, Planetary Initiative for the World We Choose, etc. Interestingly, some people in 1980s America (especially Christian organizations) lumped D&D groups into this same category.
I'm going to take Krozen's side here in a qualified way and play Devil's (or maybe Angel's) advocate.
The existence of demons and malignant spirits are still on the books as dogma. Every diocese is required by canon law to employ an exorcist. These things did not go away with the French Revolution because secularists dislike them. However, most posters here assume that they are fictitious entities developed to frighten people.
Knowing this, has my religion been more or less able to spread its teachings and protect people against preternatural evil given its decline in temporal power?
Mass attendance in Ireland is at or below 20%, and has been long before the abuse scandals. Mass attendance in France is below 4%, again long before any abuse scandals. Western nations generally all post similar numbers.
Has my religion's ability to spiritually assist people increased or decreased since it has declined in temporal power?
This violence has only helped strengthen Diani's cause in the eyes of her supporters, while, in the background, dark deeds have been carried out in Diani's name. The murder of silver flame members being among them. This has ultimately split the nation into three different groups. Those who support the church, those who support the queen and those who fear a civil war. And civil war is a very real possible outcome, especially if things keep escalating.
Over the course of the adventure, the players meet with both Diani and Krozen, get sent to Dreadhold and end up with the power to either prevent more bloodshed, or plunge thrane into a civil war. They may even uncover a plot that leads them to the demon wastes and to another optional adventure.
One thing I really love about Eberron, is things are not always what they appear to be. I can't say more than that without giving away an important plot twist.
