The dragons and Quatls (not propper spelling) did. In short the Quatls during some holy ritual bound themself with the demon overlords thingies so that they should not ever be released. This is how the silver flame was created.
I know how it was done before, but what if even one of them got free now. I just don't think they should be unchecked(assuming they got free).
PS. They have some close before, and I guess if a DM wanted they could again. I know they are not statted, but it is understood they have divine ranks, meaning without deux ex machina the PC's wont win that fight.
that is then called an epic campaign :P And can you think of any better way for a paladin in your party to end his/her career?
I dont plan to free them, but for fluff purposes they seem to have no equals, and dying while saving the worlds is not going to be good unless he thinks he succeeded. I would hate to know I died and then the world went next.
Well, now that I think about it I might do it to bring in 4E if I switch over. I will have to come up with some plot device that can change the fabric of reality in such a way as to make 4E viable.
Time for another thread
A standard Rakshasa is only a CR 9... I imagine most of them have a few class levels as well (mine always have), but that still leaves them lagging behind the REAL BBEGs of Eberron: the Quori.
But, to answer your question: "who is going to stand up to them if they get free"? The PCs, of course! ;)
No equals?
A standard Rakshasa is only a CR 9... I imagine most of them have a few class levels as well (mine always have), but that still leaves them lagging behind the REAL BBEGs of Eberron: the Quori.
But, to answer your question: "who is going to stand up to them if they get free"? The PCs, of course! ;)
I was not speaking of the regular rahsaa. I was referring to the overlords, but I could not remember how to spell the name
Actually, there is an example of an overlord statted up - Sul Khatesh, included in Dragon 337. She does not actually have divine rank, but has most of the abilities of a being of divine rank 7. Dealing with an Overlord SHOULD be an epic campaign. And while I'm not sure "deus ex machina" is the word I'd use, what's suggested is that in order to rebind an overlord, the PCs will need a plot device - whether it's merging spirits with a couatl guardian to connect to the spirit of the Silver Flame, reconstructing the shattered prison of the rajah, or what have you. These are supposed to be creatures that threaten nations. They can be defeated - but defeating them is supposed to be the end of an adventure arc, not a fight you can simply charge into. You beat Sauron by melting down the Ring - not just by challenging him to a fight.
thanks
No equals?
A standard Rakshasa is only a CR 9... I imagine most of them have a few class levels as well (mine always have), but that still leaves them lagging behind the REAL BBEGs of Eberron: the Quori.
But, to answer your question: "who is going to stand up to them if they get free"? The PCs, of course! ;)
Reskshasa Rajah are literally gods, the only ones that are on Eberron (not counting Vol or the Flame). They have divine ranks, and them blinking can alter reality, and they have epic class levels.
They are much stronger than the average CR9 Rakshasa
Does it mean humanoids being hunted for sport by rakshasas in camouflage with six-packs of Schlitz at their side? (Rakshasas in my Eberron drink Schlitz or PBR to emphasize their odiousness.)
Does it mean Galifar is reunited under Oargev, now a puppet of the rajahs, its armies martialed to launch an invasion of Riedra to break the power of the quori?
Does it mean people will be rounded up, forced into slave labor gangs, and worked to death rebuilding the great demonic cities of the past and demolishing their own cities where that interferes with the plan?
I think any Rajah that does get loose is eventually going to make a move on Argonnessen. It was the dragons and the coatls who enslaved the Rajahs and now the coatls are gone. I figure if I got locked up for a few thousand years I'd be itching for some revenge at some point.
And even then the dragons have killed a Rajah on their own, though the Rajah may have planned it because of the corrupting effect it had on Argonnessen. And the dragons tend to be on the lookout for things like Rajahs waking up so at some point it would have to be dragons fighting the Rajah. This all assuming one gets loose and there's no real way to trap him again or if the PCs continually botch the retrapping quests.
Their biggest fear is that a drastic change will trigger the turning of the age and destroy them (well, remake them into something completely different, but close enough, as far as they are concerned). Something like an overlord being freed would wreak unholy havoc across the world. If that isn't a drastic change, I don't know what is.
I would definitely see the Quori throwing their entire combined might against the overlord to try and put it down before it could make a mess of things. In fact, they may have done so already, and we just don't know about it (which would be the entire point).
I am sure blocking any divination spells would be a top priority so no visitors show up, and making sure there are not enough couatls to return them to prison.
Ornito, where is the info about one being killed?
The death of the Rajah is mostly the fluff background for an area where demons are up to all kinds of nonsense. The Rajah's attack is described as suicidal and it apparently took a battalion of dragons to kill him.
I have no idea how many dragons are in a battalion but I tend to get the impression that the dragons could kill a Rajah in a pinch but are in trouble should enough Rajahs get loose. Also they don't seem to be too good at containing the demonic corruption that follows Rajahs wherever they go.
I have no idea how many dragons are in a battalion
Standard number of units in a real world battalion is 500-1500, depending on era and region.
Standard number of units in a real world battalion is 500-1500, depending on era and region.
Ya, even combined with Coatls, I have to wonder how they won the war if this is what it takes to take on one (though, I suppose, that's why they sealed them. Still...I think we need Keith's clarification).
Ya, even combined with Coatls, I have to wonder how they won the war if this is what it takes to take on one (though, I suppose, that's why they sealed them. Still...I think we need Keith's clarification).
Assuming a silver or gold dragon(two most powerful) are used and there are 5 they would still lose if all of them(the overlords) are about equal to the one that is statted in dragon magazine 337, and that is even if the overlord was fighting recklessly. If one of them really felt like fighting
I would like to do that stats and fluff, but I don't have as much free time as I would need to do all of them, and I would like to have the stats even if I never use them, so for now I am using Dicefreaks versions. I only have Laviticus(sp?) trapped here. The other LotN are not trapped, but there are other major archfiends(devils and demons) trapped.
Assuming a silver or gold dragon(two most powerful) are used and there are 5 they would still lose if all of them are about equal to the one that is statted in dragon magazine 337, and that is even if the overlord was fighting recklessly. If one of them really felt like fighting
Finally got to look at the stats. Holy ****! 40+ levels, same immunities and abilities as a god, and will reform in 4d6 hours at full HP. As strong as a Dragon is (CR 20-40 IMO), these things must all be close to CR 60-100. How did the dragons and couatles have any chance at all?
When Keith said god-like without being a god, I was picturing CR 30-50, like Cthulhu d20.
Likewise with the cthulhu mythos. It makes Cthulhu not seem like a special villain if you can just shoot him to death or ram him with a boat and kill him, oh wait.
But I like the way the evil Overlords are set up in Eberron where you don't see them getting killed. Instead you count yourself lucky if you can lock them away for a few thousand years. And on the rare occasions when one does die its because he was plotting some evil greater than he could perform in life.
The biggest problem in this style of play is that if you do turn one of these unknowable evils loose then you're relying on the PCs to be able to clean it up. I've played in campaigns that have ended suddenly because of mistakes we've made as characters that did things like end the galaxy or result in worlds dying. Its kind of sad to see a campaign take an abrupt ending but some of those are the best stories I've ever been a part of.
Finally got to look at the stats. Holy ****! 40+ levels, same immunities and abilities as a god, and will reform in 4d6 hours at full HP. As strong as a Dragon is (CR 20-40 IMO), these things must all be close to CR 60-100. How did the dragons and couatles have any chance at all?
When Keith said god-like without being a god, I was picturing CR 30-50, like Cthulhu d20.
Rambling writing ahead
I figured they were somewhere in that range before I saw the stats, and I wondered who is going to check them? In FR if some evil god decided to go stomping around another god could step in, but the gods in Eberron don't exist in a physical form. I consider them as the combined faith of the people so they do exist, but all they can really do is lend great power(like the Silver Flame does to the keeper) to whoever would have to fight an overlord meaning the PC suddenly goes from level X to level Y, but really fighting them is not an options because even if you win it adopts to your tactics and you might lose the 2nd time. I have thought about a plot device, but if it were that easy the couatls would not have sacrificed themselves, and it took almost an entire race to trap about nine of them.
Seeing as how Rajahs come back just like devils and demons do when killed, I guess they have a connection to the Eberron in the same manner world. Maybe I could say there was a spell/item that was being made a long time ago that would sever that connection, and once that was done they could be killed forever assuming the PC could locate the item, but that still leaves the problem of their evil tainting the area like it does in Argnonessen.
Otoh, I can't see any mortal or group of mortals, other than dragons coming close to being that powerful, so I guess the stats would only be needed if the PC's took the direct approach. Maybe the Rasha could have an aspect guarding whatever it is that could sever his connection.
The how's could be explained that the one time sacrifice of the coatls has made it so there isn't a need for a huge sacrifice of life this time. The coatls having worked with the dragons before have for their own reasons decided that this time they'll be working with the lesser races and choose the PCs as their agents, all of this through a single coatl or perhaps some coatl spirit hive mind.
The PCs don't kill the Rajah but they manage to bind him, perhaps not perfectly, but it seems like all of the rakshasas are finding ways to influence the world through their binds so this isn't really something new and terribly different. Throw in some lunar requirements, perhaps a coterminus plane or a manifest zone and the encounter gets harder. The idea is to make an encounter suitable for epic players that doesn't require them to walk around and just kill things.
The Rajah gets released, well, assuming I was willing to play with those stats (:eek
too begin with, it won't be a plot device to just put them back in, because I want the PCs to have a feeling of truly epic accomplishment. So, instead of just burying the Demon, the PCs unconver some ancient spells and artifacts that turn them into literal deities by pooling all the, for lack of a better word, 'Goodness' of the world into themselves. They become the literal manifestation of Heaven on Earth and lay down some Holy Smack on some Demons.I don't mind to plot devices of stopping the cult from releasing the Rajah, or reinforcing the barriers around them, but I hate never ending evil as no matter what the PCs do, it always feels like they've failed, and that just dosen't sit with me.
If all the events of time have led to the moment the PCs face the Rajah, then it's going to shake the foundation of the cosmos and no one is going to forget it.
I have no idea how many dragons are in a battalion but I tend to get the impression that the dragons could kill a Rajah in a pinch but are in trouble should enough Rajahs get loose.
Rajahs can be defeated, but they cannot be permanently killed. It took the sacrifice of an entire race of immortals simply to bind them. The issue of Yad-Raghesh is unclear. The intention was that he attacked and was defeated (discorporated, a state he should have eventually returned from) with suprising ease - something that troubled the elders who defeated him. As it turned out, he seemingly choose this defeat in order to infect the region - transitioning into another state of existence. So he wasn't truly KILLED; his energy simply shifted states, and likely it was something he intended.
And indeed, whatever the size of a modern unit of the Light of Siberys, any sort of battle with a rajah would have involved massive numbers of dragons, along with draconic champions like Ourelonastrix or Dularanahk and possibily couatl. Five dragons could hold their own against lesser demons, but not a rajah. Fortunately, the rajahs simply weren't in a hurry and didn't coordinate often. Immortality was both a strength and weakness, because the rajahs simply didn't see the dragons as being much of a threat. This gave dragons like Ourenlonastrix time to unlock secrets of the Prophecy and of epic magic... the things that gave them a chance to become a threat (though it still took the couatl sacrifice to bring an end to things).