We have a changeling rogue in our group,
my question is when a changeling 'changes' does his/her voice change as well?
the disguise self description says audible componets are not changed so im saying NO the voice doesn't change.
but other ppl are saying ti does b/c with changelings it's a physical morphing as oppose to an illusion.
help would be appreciated.
thanks.
1. Disguise self says it doesn't and it works as disguise self
2. If the changeling could change it's insides (including what makes it's voice) then it would be immune to critical hits.
Since Disguise checks don't do anything for your voice, neither does minor change shape.
But what, then, does?
By the rules should the character's voice change just because he's shapechanged? No. It's a flat +10 to disguise.
Do you almost completely nerf the somewhat useless change shape ability of the changeling by not letting them alter their voice slightly. Yes.
For fun I say just let the voice change. It won't break anything. BUT! and this is crucial....
require the PLAYER to speak in a different voice as long as his character is disguised.
[pretty girl gives a cup to Tristan]
Tristan: Thank you. I’m Tristan. What’s your name?
Girl: [in deep male voice] Bernard.
Changelings can grow or shrink by up to one foot, so I don't think it's unreasonable to let them change the size of their vocal cords as well. But even if you don't explicitly allow them to do that, the size and shape of their body can also change the pitch, volume, timbre, and tone of their voice.
I would also find it strange for a changeling's voice to remain the same when they change their physical sex, considering how complete their transformation is supposed to be (for example, they gain fully functional reproductive organs). Retaining the same pitch of voice would also seriously compromise many of a changeling's disguises, and if that were the case I'd have thought it would have been mentioned somewhere in the rules.
In my campaign, a changeling's voice automatically changes to a varying degree whenever they change shape or gender - I only make them roll if they want to immitate a specific voice (including their "normal" voice while in a different form), as that requires them to carefully tweak the size of their vocal cords, the shape of their chest and neck, the position of their tongue, the tightness of their vocal folds and various muscles, etc. I guess it would be a bit like tuning a musical instrument, and it also fits with the idea of changelings being natural linguists.
2. If the changeling could change it's insides (including what makes it's voice) then it would be immune to critical hits.
And that depends entirely on if you allow Changelings to take the Warshaper PrC. In which case yes, they can stick their heart in one foot, and their kidneys in the other.
Personally, I don't.
Do you almost completely nerf the somewhat useless change shape ability of the changeling by not letting them alter their voice slightly. Yes.
I dunno about this nerfing the ability. By the rules, you don't even need to roll Diguise checks except in a few situations (if you've taken somebody's ID and interacting with one of that person's associates, or if you're trying to sneak past some guards). The ability to look like anything all day long is quite potent. Now, convincing someone being interacted with that a male changeling is female when the changeling already looks like one shouldn't be a very high Bluff DC, probably anywhere from 0-10 (if you just have the NPC 'Take 10" on his/her Sense Motive). Often rolling a check just isn't required because the Bluff is believable and probably has no impact on the NPC.
I dunno about this nerfing the ability. By the rules, you don't even need to roll Diguise checks except in a few situations (if you've taken somebody's ID and interacting with one of that person's associates, or if you're trying to sneak past some guards). The ability to look like anything all day long is quite potent. Now, convincing someone being interacted with that a male changeling is female when the changeling already looks like one shouldn't be a very high Bluff DC, probably anywhere from 0-10 (if you just have the NPC 'Take 10" on his/her Sense Motive). Often rolling a check just isn't required because the Bluff is believable and probably has no impact on the NPC.
Although if you buy the line about changeling pregnancy, there should be no penalty at all, because they do not disguise themselves as another gender, they *BECOME* another gender.
Its not a male changeling pretending to be female, it is a male changeling turning into a female, with massive changes to their internal structures (including the spontaneous growth of an entirely new internal organ with no analogue in the male body).
I dunno about this nerfing the ability.
The changeling's minor shape change ability is really weak sauce when compared to MOST other races.
This has come up quite a bit, usually someone comes in asking why the entire world isn't freaked out by the awesome power of da changelings and it must be explained that once you think about the power of a +10 to disguise it's more of a novelty.
By the rules, you don't even need to roll Diguise checks except in a few situations
Yeah, when it matters. Just like every other roll in the game. Doesn't make disguise self (which is basically all their power is) overpowered or even powerful.
(if you've taken somebody's ID and interacting with one of that person's associates, or if you're trying to sneak past some guards).
Actually you'd have to roll it anytime you do something suspicious that causes someone to go HMMMM. In Eberron people know changelings exist. And your minor shape change can be seen through by anyone just like disguise self.
And god help the changeling that hasn't maximized their disuise skill. If you don't put points into it your racial ability quickly becomes absolutely useless.
The ability to look like anything all day long is quite potent.
People LOVE saying this. But the fact is it is NOT potent. In OUR world it would be extremely potent. In a world where everyone knows about changelings. It quickly becomes a novelty. Please explain to me da awesome power of +10 to disguise. People have said this fairly often about minor shape change but it never stands up to scrutiny.
Now, convincing someone being interacted with that a male changeling is female when the changeling already looks like one shouldn't be a very high Bluff DC,
Though if you don't let the PC change their voice at all and they must speak in some ridiculous comedic falsetto to try to sound like a woman I'd have to give a sizeable negative circumstance modifier.
probably anywhere from 0-10 (if you just have the NPC 'Take 10" on his/her Sense Motive).
So to have a useful racial ability a changeling must now put points into disguise self AND bluff. That's really unfair to the changeling player who's already playing a race more flavorful than powerful.
Often rolling a check just isn't required because the Bluff is believable and probably has no impact on the NPC.
And how does this make their disguise self the awesome? If the situation has NO impact and no roll is required then the PC is obviously doing nothing of importance which means they're doing nothing of consequence. Which means they aren't doing anything game breaking. So why nerf an ability that's more flavor than substance?
Or does disguising your voice come as part of the package? Can't the penalty for being disguised as a different sex be, in part, because of such a detail?
Yeah, when it matters. Just like every other roll in the game. Doesn't make disguise self (which is basically all their power is) overpowered or even powerful.
I agree with this, mostly. The actual wording of the skill says "Your Disguise check result determines how good the disguise is, and it is opposed by others’ Spot check results. If you don’t draw any attention to yourself, others do not get to make Spot checks. If you come to the attention of people who are suspicious (such as a guard who is watching commoners walking through a city gate), it can be assumed that such observers are taking 10 on their Spot checks."
The skill is most useful for simply blending in, not for taking over people's lives. The latter requires a huge degree of skill; you need to be a virtual spymaster to pull it off. But any changeling can get away with just looking like an average-joe whatever, as long as they're just doing that.
The skill is most useful for simply blending in, not for taking over people's lives. The latter requires a huge degree of skill; you need to be a virtual spymaster to pull it off.
Or a Hat of Disguise.
Don't forget, unnamed bonuses always stack. So, a Changeling with a Hat of Disguise is looking at +20 to his checks right off the bat, which assuming he has max ranks in Disguise, it is literally impossible for all but the most keen sensed observer to spot the deception (assuming he's taking a shape that doesn't impose penalties beyond the racial penalty).
And how does this make their disguise self the awesome? If the situation has NO impact and no roll is required then the PC is obviously doing nothing of importance which means they're doing nothing of consequence.
By "no impact" I mean by just accepting that the person you're interacting with is who they say they are, it won't endanger your life, livelihood, or future plans. For example, a male changeling disguised as a woman just walking down the street won't require a Disguise check until an inquisitor who is actively looking for this changeling sees him (at which point there's an opposed Disguise vs Spot check).
Lets say the inquisitor failed the Spot check and is now using Gather Information to ask around for the changeling. Most of the people he talks to didn't even see the changeling; others unwittingly did, but weren't paying much attention (again, no opposed check required); a few actually interacted with the changeling, but didn't notice she was actually a he because it was just another customer in a long line (opposed "take 10" check of Bluff vs Sense Motive with -5 penalty); finally, one man the inquisitor speaks with confirms that there was a suspicious "woman" in the marketplace, as he was hitting on her like crazy (looking desperately for company that night) until he noticed she was acting rather masculine and at one point accidentally spoke in a much deeper voice than usual (opposed Bluff vs Sense Motive, Sense Motive succeeded).
Minor Change Shape isn't a powerful ability if you're looking soley at combat potential. However, it's both a fun ability and one that makes evading notice (and usually the law) extremely easy. It's hard to compare such an ability to the sheer power built into a warforged, or even a shifter. Still, I prefer to play the game with as few unnecessary house rules as possible, and I think the rules of the game cover this aspect of the setting just fine. However, as Edy put it earlier in the topic, if you buy the RoE bit about sexual organs changing with your outward appearance, you may as well adopt the idea that vocal chords change with them.
By "no impact" I mean by just accepting that the person you're interacting with is who they say they are,
Yeah I know what you meant. And how is that different from any other skill on earth? Do you make your players use their tumble skill just to do a somersault for fun on a sidewalk? Most people (perhaps I'm mistaken though) skip rolls that are flavor and have no impact on the story. So my point is there isn't anything overly powerful about the changelings ability to change their look quicker than another race using the disguise skill. And is technically inferior to a hat of disguise. Which would work in almost the same way but would also change the clothes at least. With that as well there'd be no rolls except when appropriate. But people with hats of disguise don't own the world. Neither do changelings.
Should any DM really be so nitpicky as to say a voice change isn't covered at all? As Gurv pointed out and I paraphrase "that's NOT part of a disguise?"
it won't endanger your life, livelihood, or future plans. For example, a male changeling disguised as a woman just walking down the street won't require a Disguise check until an inquisitor who is actively looking for this changeling sees him (at which point there's an opposed Disguise vs Spot check).
What is your point? It's not like I disagree. That's how disguise works.
Lets say the inquisitor failed the Spot check and is now using Gather Information to ask around for the changeling. Most of the people he talks to didn't even see the changeling; others unwittingly did, but weren't paying much attention (again, no opposed check required); a few actually interacted with the changeling, but didn't notice she was actually a he because it was just another customer in a long line
I could do this with a single skill point in disguise. Doesn't make it a powerful ability of changelings.
(opposed "take 10" check of Bluff vs Sense Motive with -5 penalty); finally, one man the inquisitor speaks with confirms that there was a suspicious "woman" in the marketplace, as he was hitting on her like crazy (looking desperately for company that night) until he noticed she was acting rather masculine and at one point accidentally spoke in a much deeper voice than usual (opposed Bluff vs Sense Motive, Sense Motive succeeded).
And as I said before. Now I need bluff AND disguise just to do something that should really be covered by disguise. IS there really any precedent for BLUFF to change a person's voice? I'll admit to not being TOO well read in the D&D rules so maybe there is but I've never heard of it.
Do you seriously think minor shape change is SO powerful/useful a PC should require both ranks in disguise and bluff to get a decent use out of their racial ability?
Minor Change Shape isn't a powerful ability if you're looking soley at combat potential.
It's not a powerful ability period. Oh wow. I can look like a random person on the street! That's so super..... Wait why exactly?
However, it's both a fun ability
Absolutely agree! As I said... novelty. It's great fun. So why penalize their fun ability by being such a nitpicker they need to use the lying skill to change their voice?
and one that makes evading notice (and usually the law) extremely easy.
Not necessarily. Depends on the situation. Yes if you commit a random crime on the street you'll have a great chance of getting away with it even with eye witnessess. Wow. Way to pwn stealing apples off carts in the street.
Most PCs could use their skills or abilities in some manner to solve their problems. That changelings can blend into a crowd easily can SOMEtimes be useful. Maybe even VERY useful if they're lucky. But almost never one I'd call POWERFUL.
Certainly not so powerful I'd feel the need to limit it by including bluff to have a decent voice to go with your disguise. They already have to take the usual disguise penalties for crying out loud.
It's hard to compare such an ability to the sheer power built into a warforged, or even a shifter. Still, I prefer to play the game with as few unnecessary house rules as possible,
Then why are you adding bluff as a means to change your voice? that's a houserule and it further limits an already weak ability that in no way compares to other powers of races you just mentioned.
and I think the rules of the game cover this aspect of the setting just fine.
Not really. This is obviously a grey area. There's no skill that explicitly states if you want to change your voice this is the only one that does it. I've certainly always assumed a person would adopt an appropriate voice when trying to pull off a disguise. Most PCs aren't mentally handicapped.
However, as Edy put it earlier in the topic, if you buy the RoE bit about sexual organs changing with your outward appearance, you may as well adopt the idea that vocal chords change with them.
And neither of those ideas will break anyone's campaign. So it becomes a matter of preference and for my two cents to the OP if all your players want it and it doesn't hurt your game why NOT just allow it?
Then why are you adding bluff as a means to change your voice? that's a houserule and it further limits an already weak ability that in no way compares to other powers of races you just mentioned.
Bluff: You can make the outrageous or the untrue seem plausible... The skill encompasses acting, conning, fast talking, misdirection, prevarication, and misleading body language.
A kenku can perfectly mimic familiar sounds, voices, and accents. To duplicate a specific individual's voice, a kenku makes a Bluff check; a listener familiar with the voice being imitated must succeed on an opposed Sense Motive check to discern that the voice isn't genuine.
Alrighty. Now, the Kenku's ability is pretty much the only example of voice alteration I can think of in a game. (There's also fang dragons from MM2, but that's a special ability that lets them emulate any noise and is opposed by a Will save.) But still, Bluff is the mechanic used to mislead and con, with a dash of acting. Talking in such a way to make people think you're of a different gender sounds a lot like a Bluff check to me. Keep in mind, body language and mannerisms are just as important to maintain the illusion, and those seem to be part of the Bluff skill check as well. Tootsie and Mrs. Doubtfire wouldn't have worked if the actors couldn't convince others that they are what they look like.
Alrighty. Now, the Kenku's ability is pretty much the only example of voice alteration I can think of in a game. (There's also fang dragons from MM2, but that's a special ability that lets them emulate any noise and is opposed by a Will save.)
An interesting point to be sure. I figured there was probably something drifting out there like that but I don't own MM III or II. Still the PHB entry doesn't support the idea at all. I don't think acting immediately brings to mind voice changing. And of course that makes one wonder what the hell Perform is for.
Also fast-talking, conning and misleading someone have nothing to do with changing your voice.
But still, Bluff is the mechanic used to mislead and con, with a dash of acting. Talking in such a way to make people think you're of a different gender sounds a lot like a Bluff check to me. Keep in mind, body language and mannerisms are just as important to maintain the illusion, and those seem to be part of the Bluff skill check as well. Tootsie and Mrs. Doubtfire wouldn't have worked if the actors couldn't convince others that they are what they look like.
But am I seriously to believe Dustin Hoffman and Robin Williams were using Bluff and not Perform: Acting?
Anyways this is all honestly an interesting discussion on bluff but it doesn't change anything I said. Minor Shape Change is a weak ability and there's nothing wrong with MergedLoki making his players happy and allowing the voice change to be handled by the ability. It will make the game more fun most likely especially if he makes the player talk in a different voice for laughs.
And it's extremely unfair to changeling players to houserule in that they now need bluff AND the disguise skill just to pull off a decent disguise and get a decent use out of their racial ability. Now being a bard or rogue is damn near mandatory or you might as well play another race.
Say the changeling rogue, wants to look like.. a dwarf, do I then have her roll a disguise skill check to see if her 'dwarf persona' is believable or is it just assumed 'ok she looks dwarfish enough?'
Seeing as i've never run a group with changelings before (never played in Eberron before) and any pc wizards NEVER use illusion (no change/disguise self etc.). never had to deal w/this before.
thanks
Ok, so a question I've got about changelings then is this.
Say the changeling rogue, wants to look like.. a dwarf, do I then have her roll a disguise skill check to see if her 'dwarf persona' is believable or is it just assumed 'ok she looks dwarfish enough?'
Seeing as i've never run a group with changelings before (never played in Eberron before) and any pc wizards NEVER use illusion (no change/disguise self etc.). never had to deal w/this before.
thanks
Generally speaking, they look dwarfish enough that people will just accept them as a dwarf. If they do anything to call attention to themselves, and give people a reason to take a good look at them, thats when the roll comes into play.
Think of it this way, if you were walking down the street minding your own business and passed someone in high heels, a dress, and long blond hair, you would normally just assume that its a woman and keep walking, because you don't really care. However, if you thought they were hot and started checking them out, then you might notice an adams apple. Whoops, its a transvestite!
Same with Changelings. As long as they aren't trying to stand out, they melt into crowds without the need for dice rolling. Its only when they start interacting with people, giving them reason to look twice, that the check matters.
Also fast-talking, conning and misleading someone have nothing to do with changing your voice.
So...making someone believe you're from a different country based on your accent, or of a different race based on your pronunciation, or even a different sex based on your tone....isn't misleading?
But am I seriously to believe Dustin Hoffman and Robin Williams were using Bluff and not Perform: Acting?
The characters were using both (Bluff for on-the-spot improvisation, Perform [acting] for things they had prepared to say in advance). Dustin Hoffman and Robin Williams were obviously using Perform [acting].
EDIT: Sweet validation!:
Perfect Reflection - Benefit: When using your minor shapechange ability to disguise yourself, you get a competence bonus on your Disguise check and on Bluff checks made to impersonate that person.
EDIT: Sweet validation!:
I believe thats taken a bit out of context.
The purpose of the feat is to counteract the bonuses someone gets for being familiar with the person you are impersonating. Obviously, just because you look and sound like someone doesn't mean you know to use their expressions or know where the limits with different people are like they would. That feat is supposed to let you tap into doppleganger mindreading heritage (or some utter nonsense like that, I personally don't allow this feat) so you can pick up on when you're pushing your impersonation too far (or not far enough).
The entire act of pretending to be someone is the "impersonation" that is referring to, not simply voice acting.
So...making someone believe you're from a different country based on your accent, or of a different race based on your pronunciation, or even a different sex based on your tone....isn't misleading?
Yes those are "misleading" but there are plenty of other situations where you can mislead someone that has nothing to do with voice effects.EDIT: Sweet validation!:
In regards to your quote. 1. That's a feat. 2. The feat says nothing about changing your voice. 3. I never meant to imply Bluff would never come into play when pretending to be someone else. Obviously lying is going to be important.
The only argument is in whether Bluff should be used to change your voice. Honestly I'd let a character use either Perform, Bluff or Disguise to do it. They all make sense to me. 4. I've been speaking in regards to just coming up with a random disguise. Not trying to pull off a specific impersonation. I don't personally believe a PC changeling should have to use bluff to let their disguise hold up to scrutiny since the disguise skill itself says a spot check and doesn't mention anything more about if you have to speak to someone. Intense questioning yes. But anytime they have to speak? No.
As you summed up, it's a matter of preference. I personally don't feel it's going to break Loki's game to go ahead and throw the changeling this minor bone.
Not that huge of a deal really as she's only 'changed' once so far and most times is just her true changeling self.
I'll just have her make a disguise check or something if she does something out of character for whoever/whatever she's supposed to be impersonating.
Intense questioning yes. But anytime they have to speak? No.
I'm wondering if we're starting to agree here. As I put in my initial post, just talking wouldn't require a check because most people just won't be paying enough attention (so opposed "Take 10" checks would be an auto-success, no need to even bring it up). Extended discussions with interested parties might require actual checks, however. I'd say Bluff checks come up even less frequently than Disguise checks in this regard. At least, that's been my experience playing one.
For those who want to be pedantic and say "Nonono it only adds +10 to disguise checks nothing else!" What what do you think gives them that bonus? Being a convincing liar? A unique sense of fashion? No, its the ability to physically change their bodies and voice. Seriously, how specific do you need them to be? Every dramatized scene involving a Changeling changing doesnt involve a silly make believe voice like a bad transexual. The tyrants and their Changelings totally dominate the prostitution and escort services in Sharn...bit of a turnoff to have your sexy escort start singing in baritone. Look at the day in life description of the female Changeling who ran an Inquisitive office as a male half elf...do you think she gruffs up her voice for all her clients? Thats ridiculous.
But aside from basic common sense, if you need verification RoE says it explicitly that they can change their organs to a degree...they can adopt whole new reproductive systems...surely enough to manipulate their vocal chords.
And yes, I know there is a whole community of people who try to overlook things in that and other books they dont agree with. Thats fine. Dont like something, dont use it in your game. Just be aware, that if you do this than you are nerfing the ability in a way the designers did not intend, and thus you are unbalancing the race in the face of the others and anyone playing one should be given something to compensate for it, like a bonus feat.
DocB
:88E: vs :coolcthul Who shall prevail?
Seriously, how specific do you need them to be?
Pretty damn specific. You'd think that if they're going to delve into sexuality that the authors would go all the way and delineate specifically what sort of benefits you yield from an ability...
And yes, I know there is a whole community of people who try to overlook things in that and other books they dont agree with. Thats fine. Dont like something, dont use it in your game. Just be aware, that if you do this than you are nerfing the ability in a way the designers did not intend, and thus you are unbalancing the race in the face of the others and anyone playing one should be given something to compensate for it, like a bonus feat.
A nerf? People are inferring from splatbook fluff that a race gets some other commensurate ability unmentioned in any other book, ever (one that sounds suspiciously like "Changelings may substitute a Disguise check for Bluff when misleading people"). Remember, by the books, Changelings didn't even have the whole "Choose Your Own Adventure" sexual orientation until the RoE splatbook came out (and that was probably allowed because there's no game mechanic for such an ability). Saying that this was originally intended by the designers as a balancing mechanism for the race seems like a long shot.
Don't see much point agonizing over the rules for a game system and race that will be replaced in a month, but...eh.
Because not everyone will be replacing it in a month, or in a year.
Some of us sprung for the extra "Does not spontaneously self destruct when the next edition arrives" feature on our books. ;)
Disguise takes care of appearance and sound. A true disguise artiest really has an almost magical ability to alter their voice as well as appearance. Accents and general mannerisms also fall under this skill.
Preform: Acting is needed to keep people from looking too closely at your disguise if you are attempting to be someone that they know. But if your just pretending to be a random, unimportant member of another country or culture the this skill can be more or less overlooked.
Bluff is what you fall back on when you blow one of the other checks. If you slip up and say something i your "normal" voice you better make a fast bluff check to explain that you are getting over a cold. Or to convince the regular guard that you have really been sent to relieve him so that you can slip into the vault.
The reason I don't include voice games under Preform is that I can't really think of any great actors that just don't sound like them selfs when playing a roll. At most they might affect a different accent. Actors that really try to be different people often find them selfs in pounds of makeup too. Thinking of Eddy Murphy's Clumps movies I feel that mostly he was making Disguise checks with a few hand fulls of Performances when he was trying to make you identify with a character.
Also I feel that if any shape changing race is going to take over the world it will be either dragons or dopplgangers. Both have greater reserves of intellect and charisma than the poor changlings.