- Dragonmarks are not exclusive to each race.
- The addition of Dragonborn, Deva, and other races. (Edited to remove mention of
Tieflings, which were always in the setting.) - Tieflings had an empire in Sarlonna, but were run out of there by the Inspired.
- A half dozen Eladrin feyspires have been stuck in Eberron after the Mourning.
- Warforged can attach mundane equipment to their bodies, but now need to wear armor.
- Prices for the lightning rail and airships has been much reduced.
But what else? I am interested not only in what is entirely new, but also what is different now than it used to be.
There were Tiefling in 3.5's Eberron, but they weren't considered to have any rights, since they were Outsiders. Anyone can clarify if they got their rights in 4e?
I don't think Tieflings get much more respect in 4e, but my book is at home and I am at work.
Warforged components are not all magical items now. You can attach mundane equipment.
Artificers can build Bob-ombs as a daily power at level 5.
Lightning Rail costs are Per Stop instead of Per Mile. Also Airships apparently only take you between countries and continents...it's either free or impossible to book passage between cities in a country.
Dragonshards are a bit different. Silver Keys got renamed to some dwarf sounding name.
Oh, and we now have clockwork and Magi-tech.
Can we make up a list of lore changes between the editions?
- Dragonmarks are not exclusive to each race.
- The addition of Tieflings, Dragonborn, Deva, and other races.
But what else? I am interested not only in what is entirely new, but also what is different now than it used to be.
Dragonmarks weren't exclusive to races in 3E, given the frequency with which adventures handed them out to player characters. There was even a prestige class (Cataclysm Mage) that let you choose which dragonmark you wanted to manifest at the beginning of each day, including the mark of death.
Tieflings and Goliaths also had their places in the setting, even if they didn't get much if any real attention.
Dragonborn and Deva, however, are new additions.
Also, the whole deal with the Eladrin cities being trapped in Eberron due to events related to the Day of Mourning seems to be a new development.
Obviously, the cosmology has been altered to better fit the 4e system.
I didn't see anything about ignoring alignment restrictions for divine characters, so that's a bit of a change.
Keep in mind non d-marked races with dragonmarks did exist in 3.5 through the adventure Eyes of the Lich Queen.
Tieflings were always mentioned as possibly being resulting from coterminous planes and births. Ohr Kaluun was always mentioned as being a nation that dealt in dark powers. It didn't say Tiefling but it could have.
Dragonmarks were never completely restricted to particular races if you had a good story to back up the decision. The Cataclysm Mage existed.
Dragonborn as were assumed to be in the mix of Argonessen but never really commented much on.
Overall ... it just seems to be enhancement or further detail of information that already existed in one form or another.
But ... that's just my take.
Specifically, the Mourning having any effect at all beyond the political boundary of Cyre is completely new. And disturbing.
Not in the "nerd rage" sense of "OMG!!11! HOW DARE THEY EXPAND THE SCOPE OF THE MORNING!!!", but disturbing in the sense that "given the idea that the Mourning didn't affect just Cyre... what other, more subtle effects are there that we might have missed at first glance?"
—Siran Dunmorgan
Can we make up a list of lore changes between the editions?
- Tieflings had an empire in Sarlonna, but were run out of there by the Inspired.
The fiendish kingdom of Ohr Kaluun and the persecution of its inhabitants by the inspired were mentioned earlier in Secrets of Sarlonna.
The feyspires—the homes of the eladrin—being permanently present in Eberron as a consequence of the Mourning. That's new.
Specifically, the Mourning having any effect at all beyond the political boundary of Cyre is completely new. And disturbing.
Not in the "nerd rage" sense of "OMG!!11! HOW DARE THEY EXPAND THE SCOPE OF THE MORNING!!!", but disturbing in the sense that "given the idea that the Mourning didn't affect just Cyre... what other, more subtle effects are there that we might have missed at first glance?"
—Siran Dunmorgan
Which is an excellent point .... so now the DM can spread their own brand of chaos across the continent and say that it is connected to the Mourning .... oh what trouble do we weave when first we learn to deceive.
The fiendish kingdom of Ohr Kaluun and the persecution of its inhabitants by the inspired were mentioned earlier in Secrets of Sarlonna.
Which is exactly what I was pointing to .... so that isn't new ... it is just rehashed with more explanation.
A little while later, someone was poking around in their copy of Secrets of Sarlona and posted "hey, I was reading about this Ohr Kaluun place, and it sounds a decent amount like Bael Turath. Maybe this could be a source for tieflings?" Keith's response, if I recall correctly, was something along the lines of "well, I can't confirm or deny anything, but it's certainly worth noting that refugees fleeing that part of Sarlona would probably end crossing the ocean and landing... along the western edges of Khorvaire."
I was always rather amused by that.
So, yes. I think they've done a fine job of hooking back into their existing storylines to bring everything together.
The feyspires—the homes of the eladrin—being permanently present in Eberron as a consequence of the Mourning. That's new.
Specifically, the Mourning having any effect at all beyond the political boundary of Cyre is completely new. And disturbing.
I read a suggestion on another thread that it may have been because of some link between the cities that all of them (not merely the one located in Cyre) were stranded on Eberron. This seemed a natural explanation to me. For instance the feyspire on Xen'drik that was sacked by the giants would probably have been shifting back and forth along with the other towers until the Day of Mourning even though it was an uninhabited ruin.
Other changes:
- Apparently changeling no longer have a special status in Riedra (pg 152)
- The Blood of Vol is no longer widely worshipped in the Lhazaar Principalities (pg 140)
- Q'barra is actually two nations/federations; Hope and New Galifar (pg 142). This may have been in 3.5 as well, but I can't remember reading anything about it.
- The only orcs mentioned in the Mror Holds are described as xenophobic and violent (pg. 141). In 3.5 there were at least one clan of orcs being considered for inclusion in the Holds (with protest from some dwarf clans).
- The Blood of Vol is now officially an unaligned religion (pg 18)
- No orcish language anymore. Orcs speak Goblin (pg 13)
- On the same note, Drow now speak Giant (Ibid.). I actually like this change a lot. It fits.
I read a suggestion on another thread that it may have been because of some link between the cities that all of them (not merely the one located in Cyre) were stranded on Eberron. This seemed a natural explanation to me. For instance the feyspire on Xen'drik that was sacked by the giants would probably have been shifting back and forth along with the other towers until the Day of Mourning even though it was an uninhabited ruin.
This was the immediate conclusion to which I'd come. We'll see whether the ECG backs it up, or not. Keith himself said that the cities were each veiled by powerful magic throughout the millenia, and were effectively invisible during their time on Eberron. The failure of this veil in Shaelas Tiraleth (in Cyre) caused a corresponding failure in all the other cities. It was said to be the largest of the spires. Perhaps it was a focal point of a sort for the protective magic? (conjecture all mine).
- Q'barra is actually two nations/federations; Hope and New Galifar (pg 142). This may have been in 3.5 as well, but I can't remember reading anything about it.
It seems Hope has been given a much more substantial role in the region. I recall 3E Hope as a small town with a single extremist cleric of the Flame. Now, it's a much stronger settlement/area, it would seem, that's actually governed by extremist Purified.
- The Blood of Vol is now officially an unaligned religion (pg 18)
- No orcish language anymore. Orcs speak Goblin (pg 13)
- On the same note, Drow now speak Giant (Ibid.). I actually like this change a lot. It fits.
These three were all houserules already present in our games. Our 3E Drow spoke Elven and Giant, but Giant alone works, as well.
Devas have been around since the Age of Demons, fighting alongside the couatl against the fiends. These days, since that battle is (ostensibly) over and most of the couatl are gone, virtually no one remembers anything about them... but it might be worth giving that player a more detailed rundown of the earlier days of history than most, since they'll be drawing upon tens of thousands of years of past lives.
They're very rare and may go entire lifetimes without meeting another deva, so they don't usually form their own communities - they just slot themselves in with human communities, often near areas with a strong evil presence such as the Mournland or presumably the Demon Wastes.
Is the feyspire in Cyre inhabited?
No more so than any other city in the Mournland, I'd say. The EPG doesn't really specify. I'm sure the ECG will give plenty of details. If anything is "living" there, I doubt those inhabitants could truly be considered Eladrin anymore.
Short version:
Devas have been around since the Age of Demons, fighting alongside the couatl against the fiends. These days, since that battle is (ostensibly) over and most of the couatl are gone, virtually no one remembers anything about them... but it might be worth giving that player a more detailed rundown of the earlier days of history than most, since they'll be drawing upon tens of thousands of years of past lives.
They're very rare and may go entire lifetimes without meeting another deva, so they don't usually form their own communities - they just slot themselves in with human communities, often near areas with a strong evil presence such as the Mournland or presumably the Demon Wastes.
This is a nice synopsis.
I'd add that the Deva/Rakshasa connection remains intact, and probably makes even more sense in Eberron than in any other setting. The EPG says (paraphrased) "just as the Demons had Rakshasa allies, the couatls had allies--spirits of light in mortal form". As NthDegree says, they're extremely uncommon (as in the core fluff), and their history is long-forgotten by most.
I think I've finally decided my first Eberron PC will be a Deva Avenger of the Silver Flame (likely unaffiliated with the modern church, at least initially). He'll awaken in Coldflame Keep in Sharn, where Mazin Tana was told to expect him by a stranger who seemed to be one of the Purified.
Though the connection to the Silver Flame is an obvious choice in an Eberron campaign, a Deva PC could be drawn to any goodly faith or philosophy.
Though the connection to the Silver Flame is an obvious choice in an Eberron campaign, a Deva PC could be drawn to any goodly faith or philosophy.
Our group's Deva serves the Traveler...and claims that he always did so. We're in two minds about this.
I like that their origin is rather open and can accomodate many theories, like the "former rakshasa" one.
Our group's Deva serves the Traveler...and claims that he always did so. We're in two minds about this.
I like that their origin is rather open and can accomodate many theories, like the "former rakshasa" one.
I've considered the possibility of Avengers of the Traveler at some point, but Abjure Undead seems like such a strange power for a devotee of the Traveler. I realize it's simply channeling Radiant/Divine energy, but the flavor seems strange to me.
All that said, I do agree with everything you said.
No more so than any other city in the Mournland, I'd say. The EPG doesn't really specify. I'm sure the ECG will give plenty of details. If anything is "living" there, I doubt those inhabitants could truly be considered Eladrin anymore.
Excellent :evillaugh
I'm now very curious to see what they have done with populations, but that is just my pet peeve, and it has been pointed out to me before that few other people really care.
Khorvaire is smaller - about 2800 miles wide instead of 4500.
I'm now very curious to see what they have done with populations, but that is just my pet peeve, and it has been pointed out to me before that few other people really care.
Keith has said that in Eberron as he originally designed it, Khorvaire was smaller. That is why the populations of the 3e Eberron were so out of whack. They upped the size, but kept the populations the same. Perhaps they just fixed the problem? Kept the populations the same, but made the continent smaller?
Perhaps they just fixed the problem? Kept the populations the same, but made the continent smaller?
This was the route I'd anticipated from the time 4E Eberron was a thought. It would seem the easiest solution.
Pack the people too close, and you risk losing the "points of light" feel. I know that isn't being "forced" on any of the established settings, but they have consciously tried to make sure it's part of both FR and Eberron. I know I actually read the phrase "points of light" at least once in the EPG.
I think shrinking the world while maintaining the population should work out nicely.
I like the point they made about a rise in banditry after the Last War ended, with numerous battle-trained soldiers returning home to find themselves wiped out, and turning to crime. They also mention an increase in corruption amongst the nobility, which was probably status quo during the war but has become both more noticeable and less acceptable under the new peace. All potentially temporary conditions that can give you a PoL feel without it being a fundamental weakness of the controlling powers.
I vastly prefer that to the PoL ethic that monsters have to be roaming the countryside of the Five Nations - I like to think of them in much better control, and leave the monster infestations to Droaam, Q'barra and the more remote areas of Khorvaire.
One concern I had about the "Points of Light" being applied to Eberron was that it pre-supposes a relative lack of control on the part of the nobility and monarchy, at least within the borders of one of the primary nations. How can Aurala make a claim to be able to rule over all of Galifar if she can't even keep rampaging ogres from attacking travellers within Aundair?
I like the point they made about a rise in banditry after the Last War ended, with numerous battle-trained soldiers returning home to find themselves wiped out, and turning to crime. They also mention an increase in corruption amongst the nobility, which was probably status quo during the war but has become both more noticeable and less acceptable under the new peace. All potentially temporary conditions that can give you a PoL feel without it being a fundamental weakness of the controlling powers.
I vastly prefer that to the PoL ethic that monsters have to be roaming the countryside of the Five Nations - I like to think of them in much better control, and leave the monster infestations to Droaam, Q'barra and the more remote areas of Khorvaire.
Also, there's some suggestion that modern Khorvaire, for all its amazing achievments, is still a pale copy of the former Galifar.
Look at any nation after a decade(s) of devastating conflict on its home soil. There's usually a shortage of basic utilities, crumbling infrastructure, and painful reconstruction process.
There was a time when Karrnath wasn't the land of zombies and vampires. There was a time when Breland didn't have to worry about Ogres on the left and Hobgoblins to the right. There was a time when Cyre was the crown jewel of the kingdom and a center of magical, cultural, and artistic innovation, not a smoldering crater. This was Galifar.
Other changes:
- Apparently changeling no longer have a special status in Riedra (pg 152)
I kinda liked the changeling status in Riedra, what changed?
Dragonmarks are not exclusive to each race.
Literally true, but bear in mind that the ECG emphasizes that this sort of aberration should really be restricted to PCs and could be the first time in history it's happened. So it's less of a retcon and more of a change moving forward.
Tieflings had an empire in Sarlonna, but were run out of there by the Inspired.
The empire of Ohr Kaluun was mentioned in Secrets of Sarlona as a place renowned for its arcane and divine prowess and deals with darkness. Paranoia and suspicion concerning Ohr Kaluun was one of the cornerstones of the Sundering; nations like Khalesh were tricked into attacking Ohr Kaluun. It was during the Sundering that the nation was destroyed (though I admit the EPG doesn't clearly state this - while the Quori were responsible, it wasn't THE INSPIRED who destroyed Ohr Kaluun, as at the time there were no Inspired). Per SoS, refugees from Ohr Kaluun fled east and made landfall in the Demon Wastes, forming the basis of the Carrion Tribes. Others survived in hiding, among other things creating the first skulks. And others landed in Droaam, founding the Venomous Demesne.
This remains true in 4E. Ohr Kaluun wasn't a 100% tiefling empire; it was a nation whose ruling class INCLUDING tieflings as well as humans. The refugees that fled to the Demon Wastes included humans and tieflings, and thus you have both in the Demon Wastes today.
So it's new in that tieflings have a more notable place... but it's not a transformation of Ohr Kaluun from a human nation into a tiefling nation. Rather, it was a blended nation in which certain family lines became tieflings.
Can we make up a list of lore changes between the editions?
- Dragonmarks are not exclusive to each race.
- The addition of Dragonborn, Deva, and other races. (Edited to remove mention of
Tieflings, which were always in the setting.)- Tieflings had an empire in Sarlonna, but were run out of there by the Inspired.
- A half dozen Eladrin feyspires have been stuck in Eberron after the Mourning.
- Warforged can attach mundane equipment to their bodies, but now need to wear armor.
- Prices for the lightning rail and airships has been much reduced.
But what else? I am interested not only in what is entirely new, but also what is different now than it used to be.
I don't have the EPG yet myself (when I do get that and the Eberron Campaign Guide, they will be the only 4e purchases I'll make, since D&D's "evolution" is going too fast for me to keep up while winning the money game. In other words, I can't play WotC's game and the money game at the same time at present). So I can't comment on what I like and don't like.
I'm busily adapting the setting to another system (Rolemaster Fantasy Roleplaying). The adaptation is designed to be close to the 3.5e version as possible with a little bit of changes in the Arts of Mars department (actually there were very little mention of the Arts of Mars in Eberron 3.5: I just statted up about sixteen of them so far. I bet I have barely scratched the surface).
All in all, I like most of the changes I've been seeing here. With the non-dragonmarked races having dragonmarks, it's easily explained within reason with shifters, changelings, and Kalashtar. A warforged, they are not so easily explained logically.
While reading the EPG, I had a thought that's tangentially tied to this idea. I don't think I ever really appreciated Karrnath's current plight, until now. The ECS talked about their struggles with famine and plague, and Forge of War really drove this point home. I got the impression that Karrnath would've run roughshod over everyone if not for a never-ending series of catastrophies that nearly brought them to ruin. Before the war, they seem to have been by far the strongest nation.
Now, though, they still struggle with famine and plague. I seemed to have missed that point until recently. I'm not sure if it just didn't find traction in my mind, or if this is a new, darker emphasis. It definitely brings a PoL feel to that nation, without changing any established history. Each nation will likewise have their issues.
This remains true in 4E. Ohr Kaluun wasn't a 100% tiefling empire; it was a nation whose ruling class INCLUDING tieflings as well as humans. The refugees that fled to the Demon Wastes included humans and tieflings, and thus you have both in the Demon Wastes today.
So it's new in that tieflings have a more notable place... but it's not a transformation of Ohr Kaluun from a human nation into a tiefling nation. Rather, it was a blended nation in which certain family lines became tieflings.
Whether this was outright stated in SoS (I can't recall), or it was simply a matter of interpretation, this is exactly how I'd been imagined Ohr Kaluun all along. It's cool to know that I'd correctly processed the original intent.
If this wasn't the original intent, then I chalk it up to my always finding a solid place for any playable race in my games (within reason). I haven't had to veto a PC, yet, but that's probably due to our group's overall shared vision of the setting's in which we play.
A warforged, they are not so easily explained logically.
I dread the day, should it come, that one of my players wants to play a marked Warforged. It will be the biggest clash of my personal taste vs. player's desire I've ever encountered.
I simply can't imagine why Warforged should be 'marked, other than allowing Warforged players and even field in terms of options. (I've weighed myriad explanations and possibilities, so no one waste his or her breath trying to sell me on the idea ;) .)
I think our entire group is in agreement on this point, and I fully anticipate a hell of a backstory should one of our guys/gal ever come to the table with such a character. Still, it would take one hell of a concept to make this work, in my mind. Likely, the baffling "WTF? feel" of it would have to be worked right into the backstory.
I could see my NPCs having a joke at the Warforged's expense because of his "painting a dragonmark on himself".
Now, though, they still struggle with famine and plague. I seemed to have missed that point until recently.
Plague and Famine can change a nation's culture drastically. From what I can understand from the evolution of culture in Ancient Times, there was a time when a more tolerant culture existed on the Earth. However, due to plague and famine came something of the opposite.
I think Karrnath's adoption of the Blood of Vol religion resembles this change. I also tend to think that Karrnathi culture is strongly patriarchal, even for a culture that is warlike. The Dark Side of Karrnath might not be the vampires, zombies, and skeletons; but in how families are raised. I find the new Karrnath after the War maybe more Spartan than we all realize.
To drive this point home, here's the write up I did on Karrnathi Swordsmanship.
KARRNATHI SWORDSMANSHIP
Advanced Weapon Style [50 style points]
Description --- Human Swordsmanship was first developed in Sarlona thousands of years ago. From the time that it came to the Lhaazar Principalities and into Karrnath it was developed into a dynamic, fluid, energetic art where a Karrn depended on his training in swordplay to protect him and his family from invaders. When Karrnathi was finally established, the art lived and thrived and took on a life of it's own during the War of the Mark. When the Kingdom of Galifar was established, Karrnathi Swordsmanship became the ancestor of all modern human Khorvairese weapon arts.
Recommended Skills --- War Mattock, Halberd, Broadsword, Dagger, Longsword, Short Sword, Falchion, Bastard Sword, Two-Handed Sword, Great Sword, Wrestling, Boxing, Adrenal Defense, Feinting, Disarm Foe [1h weapons and 2h weapons]
Weapon Style Abilities [Core] --- All bladed weapons [10 points], War Mattock [5 points], Halberd [5 points], Adrenal Defense, Lesser [10 points], Shield Training [20 points]
Special Ability ---
Half Swording --- A person trained in this art may use his sword as a Hammer or a Staff by holding the blade in his hands to defend himself or attack. Half-swording allows one to use Krush as an alternate critical at a -5 penalty (if one is using 2003 edition of Arms Law).
Plague and Famine can change a nation's culture drastically. From what I can understand from the evolution of culture in Ancient Times, there was a time when a more tolerant culture existed on the Earth. However, due to plague and famine came something of the opposite.
I think Karrnath's adoption of the Blood of Vol religion resembles this change. I also tend to think that Karrnathi culture is strongly patriarchal, even for a culture that is warlike. The Dark Side of Karrnath might not be the vampires, zombies, and skeletons; but in how families are raised. I find the new Karrnath after the War maybe more Spartan than we all realize.
This has some merit. The last bit immediately called to mind "Pater Familias", though that clearly doesn't encapsulate your entire point.
To drive this point home, here's the write up I did on Karrnathi Swordsmanship....
Pretty cool. I'm not familiar with the ruleset. I did know that you were working on a Rolemaster (?) conversion, though. The idea that the Karrns would preserve ancient traditions, particularly martial traditions, is strongly aligned with their established ethos.
To translate the style into Feat terms:
* Combat Expertise
* Feint
* Disarm
* Dodge
* Power Attack
* Weapon Focus (one sword weapon)
* Shield Bash
though that clearly doesn't encapsulate your entire point.
No, it does not. To be frank, a society that is starving and sick becomes a stoic violent society, at least according to one book that I've seen. Therefore, I wonder why the Blood of Vol is in Karrnath and the Church of the Silver Flame is in Thrane. The Blood of Vol isn't a stoic religion, while the Church of the Silver Flame has all the signs of being one. Vol's followers don't go around saying things that would come out of a mouth of a Jedi. More like they'd say things that would fall from the lips of Darth Plaugeis.
This is a nice synopsis.
I'd add that the Deva/Rakshasa connection remains intact, and probably makes even more sense in Eberron than in any other setting. The EPG says (paraphrased) "just as the Demons had Rakshasa allies, the couatls had allies--spirits of light in mortal form". As NthDegree says, they're extremely uncommon (as in the core fluff), and their history is long-forgotten by most.
I think I've finally decided my first Eberron PC will be a Deva Avenger of the Silver Flame (likely unaffiliated with the modern church, at least initially). He'll awaken in Coldflame Keep in Sharn, where Mazin Tana was told to expect him by a stranger who seemed to be one of the Purified.
Though the connection to the Silver Flame is an obvious choice in an Eberron campaign, a Deva PC could be drawn to any goodly faith or philosophy.
One of my players is playing a invoker deva and he has yet to settle on religion until we get the EPG. He had expressed an interest in following the Silver Flame but pointed out that the PHB states the deva only follow the "old gods" and the Flame is a "new god". I pointed out that to the common races the Silver Flame was a new god but that did not have to be the case for him.
I would love to have a Follower of the Silver Flame in the party but he still seems skeptical. So I can't wait to get my hands on the new EPG and ECG to see if there are new ideas on incorporating devas and Eberron faiths.
He had expressed an interest in following the Silver Flame but pointed out that the PHB states the deva only follow the "old gods" and the Flame is a "new god". I pointed out that to the common races the Silver Flame was a new god but that did not have to be the case for him.
Certainly - the Church of the Silver Flame is simply the most recent church to draw on the power of the Silver Flame, but you've got the shulassakar, the people of Khalesh, the orcs of the Demon Wastes... and those are just ones we've described so far.
Beyond that, I wouldn't be too limited by the PHB description of a class. I played a deva avenger who we defined as a human peasant who was serving as a host to a host of restless spirits seeking vengeance against the cult that had slain them. My Memories of a Thousand Lives were actually the shadows of THEIR memories, and my powers weren't from any god, but rather reflected the host of ghosts empowering me. So technically I was a deva, and technically I was an avenger, but I wasn't actualy serving a god and I didn't have white and purple skin.
All I'm saying is that the core books (and any books for that matter) should serve as inspiration as opposed to restriction. Looking to 3.5 Eberron, the quote in the begining of the book is that you should be able to find a plae for anything in Eberron, but you may want to change it to fit the tone of the setting.
Certainly - the Church of the Silver Flame is simply the most recent church to draw on the power of the Silver Flame, but you've got the shulassakar, the people of Khalesh, the orcs of the Demon Wastes... and those are just ones we've described so far.
Beyond that, I wouldn't be too limited by the PHB description of a class. I played a deva avenger who we defined as a human peasant who was serving as a host to a host of restless spirits seeking vengeance against the cult that had slain them. My Memories of a Thousand Lives were actually the shadows of THEIR memories, and my powers weren't from any god, but rather reflected the host of ghosts empowering me. So technically I was a deva, and technically I was an avenger, but I wasn't actualy serving a god and I didn't have white and purple skin.
All I'm saying is that the core books (and any books for that matter) should serve as inspiration as opposed to restriction. Looking to 3.5 Eberron, the quote in the begining of the book is that you should be able to find a plae for anything in Eberron, but you may want to change it to fit the tone of the setting.
I am trying to get him to look beyond what is stated in the PHB but he is the type of player that tends to get stuck on what is stated in the core rules. Thanks for the ideas. I will definitely throw them at him next time I have the chance.
I am trying to get him to look beyond what is stated in the PHB but he is the type of player that tends to get stuck on what is stated in the core rules. Thanks for the ideas. I will definitely throw them at him next time I have the chance.
If he's the kind of guy that "gets stuck on what the handbooks say", then I can almost guarantee his Avenger will follow the Silver Flame. According to the EPG, the Devas are "spirits of light in mortal form" who fought alongside the couatls during the Age of Demons.
You can't get any stronger a connection to the Silver Flame than that. The Devas would have been there to see their war won by the sacrifice of their couatl allies. That sacrifice created the Silver Flames that still bind their fiendish adversaries within Khyber.
All I'm saying is that the core books (and any books for that matter) should serve as inspiration as opposed to restriction. Looking to 3.5 Eberron, the quote in the begining of the book is that you should be able to find a plae for anything in Eberron, but you may want to change it to fit the tone of the setting.
It's interesting that you mention this and the Silver Flame within the same post.
Before the release of the EPG my tentative explanation for Devas in Eberron was that they are couatls that took on mortal form in lieu of joining their brethren as part of the silver flames. They would serve as watchful guardians of the world to come, protecting the world from a new age of evil.
Honestly, I still slightly prefer my concept to the official one, and haven't settled on which my PC (assuming I go with my Deva Avenger) will be. The core concept may be slightly more versatile, with a lesser connection to the couatls, and by extension the Silver Flame, but not necessarily.
I can easily combine the two, saying Devas are the immortal spirits of both couatls and their allies bound in humanoid forms to serve the purpose I described above.
Before the release of the EPG my tentative explanation for Devas in Eberron was that they are couatls that took on mortal form in lieu of joining their brethren as part of the silver flames. They would serve as watchful guardians of the world to come, protecting the world from a new age of evil.
In my personal campaign, I use devas as a "metarace" as opposed to a species... using the core idea of someone with the memories of many lives but exploring different variations. I've already mentioned one. Looking to the Silver Flame, it's said that noble souls join with the Flame, and we know that Tira Miron herself was empowered by a couatl. So rather than go with the literal eternally-reborn-spirit, I go with the human tapping into the memories of the fallen heroes who are part of the Flame itself (and thereby gaining the necrotic/radiant resistance from that divine connection). With a little bit of tinkering (change the immortal origin to fey, for example), you can reskin a deva as a Tairnadal elf with a close connection to a patron ancestor, and have the memory of a thousand lives reflect that ancestral guidance. You could be a Cyran avenger channeling the souls of those killed by the Mourning, driven to find a new homeland for your people... or on the immortal end, be a spirit of war from Shavarath bound to mortal flesh and doomed to continue the eternal war on Eberron. And so on. Personally, I prefer to limit the number of races in my campaign, and since devas are supposed to be rare to begin with, I'm happy to essentially have them be special cases than an actual species. But there's no reason these ideas can't exist in concert with incarnate couatl or benevolent ancient spirits; it's just a matter of what makes the most satisfying story.
If he's the kind of guy that "gets stuck on what the handbooks say", then I can almost guarantee his Avenger will follow the Silver Flame.
Bear in mind that Shard's character in question was an invoker... I'm the one who turned it to avengers. ;)
connection). With a little bit of tinkering (change the immortal origin to fey, for example), you can reskin a deva as a Tairnadal elf with a close connection to a patron ancestor...
Hah! I'd thought about doing this very thing, but worried I might be suspected of munchkinism. I'd likewise considered an Undying Aereni reborn to fulfill a specific part of the prophecy. (It would have to be one heck of a prophecy, no doubt, for the Aereni to go this route.) The second idea seemed less likely to elicit complaints of munchinkism, but that particular concept is on the back-burner, for now. So many characters, so little time.
I agree that the Deva is perfect for "reskinning". It probably more readily lends itself to this usage than any race to date.
Bear in mind that Shard's character in question was an invoker... I'm the one who turned it to avengers. ;)
I didn't read Shard's post carefully enough. That said, the obvious ties to the Silver Flame still apply.
If the player would prefer to keep that "honor the whole pantheon" type of feel that the PH2 sort of implied, the Sovereign Host couldn't be more perfect.
Hah! I'd thought about doing this very thing, but worried I might be suspected of munchkinism... I agree that the Deva is perfect for "reskinning". It probably more readily lends itself to this usage than any race to date.
That's the thing. Racial reskinning isn't something I'd do casually, and I've had cases where people have requested it and I've turned them down. It's something I specifically like for devas because I see them as being more interesting as a metarace than as one more species in a world of many races. There's many interesting ways to explore the concept of humanoid-empowered-by-divine-force-and-holding-memories-of-many-lives... and since as is there aren't really supposed to be deva communities, the setting doesn't really lose anything from having this varied approach. But I wouldn't normally let people make elves with dwarf stats or dwarves with human stats or whatever.
One of my players is playing a invoker deva and he has yet to settle on religion until we get the EPG. He had expressed an interest in following the Silver Flame but pointed out that the PHB states the deva only follow the "old gods" and the Flame is a "new god". I pointed out that to the common races the Silver Flame was a new god but that did not have to be the case for him.
I would love to have a Follower of the Silver Flame in the party but he still seems skeptical. So I can't wait to get my hands on the new EPG and ECG to see if there are new ideas on incorporating devas and Eberron faiths.
When fluff interferes with a gamers fun and really does not matter (invoker fluff) then ignore the hell out of it. The old god thing is really just fluff. I think invokers could work for any religion or god.
If he is one of those gamers that see written product as some form of "canon" (ugh) then use CyberDave's argument that the Flame is an "Old" Deity so it should be no problem.
That's the thing. Racial reskinning isn't something I'd do casually, and I've had cases where people have requested it and I've turned them down. It's something I specifically like for devas because I see them as being more interesting as a metarace than as one more species in a world of many races. There's many interesting ways to explore the concept of humanoid-empowered-by-divine-force-and-holding-memories-of-many-lives... and since as is there aren't really supposed to be deva communities, the setting doesn't really lose anything from having this varied approach. But I wouldn't normally let people make elves with dwarf stats or dwarves with human stats or whatever.
QFT.
I have the trust of my gaming group, I believe, and probably wouldn't get any push-back if I tried this. I probably could've better phrased my post this way: "I expected to be accused of munchkinism if I'd shared my idea in these forums".
Many things that appear in our games never directly appear in my posts here, mostly because I don't feel like wading through trolls to get to the valuable feedback of the few. The Eberron forum-goers are a little more reasonable crowd, though, and that's one more reason I'm glad the Eberron forums have sprung to life, again. The Star Wars crowd is a likewise amiable lot.
The old god thing is really just fluff. I think invokers could work for any religion or god.
Yep. I don't think I've conceptualized an Invoker yet that has been intentionally in-line with this "old god" bit.
For the purposes of Shard's friend, I think any of Eberron's faiths will do, regardless of how stringently he follows the fluff. All of Eberron's faiths are ancient. None of them are new. The Host, the Flame, the Blood of Vol, the Undying of Aerenal, so on and so forth -- they've all been around in some form since before human civilization.
If those aren't "old gods", I don't know what is.
[/joke]
Khorvaire is smaller - about 2800 miles wide instead of 4500.
This makes Khorvaire a few hundred miles wider than the forty-eight contiguous United States from San Francisco to New York City, which is about 2600 miles.
The feyspires—the homes of the eladrin—being permanently present in Eberron as a consequence of the Mourning. That's new. Specifically, the Mourning having any effect at all beyond the political boundary of Cyre is completely new. And disturbing.
I'll just note that this is something discussed in the Mournland section of the ECG.
For the purposes of Shard's friend, I think any of Eberron's faiths will do, regardless of how stringently he follows the fluff. All of Eberron's faiths are ancient. None of them are new. The Host, the Flame, the Blood of Vol, the Undying of Aerenal, so on and so forth -- they've all been around in some form since before human civilization.
lets say almost all faiths.
Lord of Blades & Becoming God cant really be counted as old religions... ;)
lets say almost all faiths.
Lord of Blades & Becoming God cant really be counted as old religions... ;)
Unless a Xen'drik expedition proves it to be otherwise
.The feyspires—the homes of the eladrin—being permanently present in Eberron as a consequence of the Mourning. That's new. Specifically, the Mourning having any effect at all beyond the political boundary of Cyre is completely new. And disturbing.
When will people realize-- the Mourning didn't trap the feyspires; the feyspires' appearance caused the Mourning! First the Valenar took a chunk of Cyre, and then the eladrin took the rest... They're all in it together. We gotta stop them!
/paranoia
Racial reskinning isn't something I'd do casually...
I favor reskinning primarily for "marginal" sorts that don't otherwise make an appearance in my campaign. For example: I've never really cared for goliaths at all (and my players don't really know they exist). However, I've got a great love for Droaam, and a powerful need for half-ogres and hagborn. A little nameswitch and polishing up, and voile! All that goliath-related material I'd otherwise ignore now gets used.
Looks like I was ninja'd by the entire thread. I had read something here and tried to find it again to respond and wasn't able to for days. Finally did and responded before reading through the whole thread, and it looks like everyone has commented on the same thing. (That the feyspires were connected to the one in Cyre).
I favor reskinning primarily for "marginal" sorts that don't otherwise make an appearance in my campaign. For example: I've never really cared for goliaths at all (and my players don't really know they exist). However, I've got a great love for Droaam, and a powerful need for half-ogres and hagborn...
I'd actually thought that the official plan was to reskin goliaths as eneko, and that's likely the path I'll take in my game (keeping some of the interesting ideas about goliaths, but incorporating them into the history and culture of Sarlona, present elsewhere as migrants). But I just personally prefer to limit the overall number of races in the world, so as you say, it's a way to use a race that otherwise might not appear at my table. Hence my "metadeva" approach; I don't feel like adding another race, but the deva works exceptionally well as a manifestation within another race.
lets say almost all faiths.
Lord of Blades & Becoming God cant really be counted as old religions... ;)
Yeah, that one's new.I prefer to ignore it, and had forgotten and/or blocked it out. It was too big a stretch to suit my tastes. I wouldn't discourage a player from using it, but it's definitely something I'll neither be playing nor promoting in my games.
To each his own, though. I know many here likely use it and love it. Just as in real world faiths, one is free to pursue whichever floats his boat.
I simply can't imagine why Warforged should be 'marked, other than allowing Warforged players and even field in terms of options. (I've weighed myriad explanations and possibilities, so no one waste his or her breath trying to sell me no the idea ;) .)
In our 3.5 game (years ago) our warforged artificer died (was beyond repair?). We scraped together the funds to have him reincarnated. At the end of the ritual, Talon was back . . . as a human. His (at work and can't recall the warforged personalized symbol in the middle of their forehead) was replaced by a minor mark of making. Creating another subset of convoluted subplots (that our group had many of).
Have Fun
In our 3.5 game (years ago) our warforged artificer died (was beyond repair?). We scraped together the funds to have him reincarnated. At the end of the ritual, Talon was back . . . as a human. His (at work and can't recall the warforged personalized symbol in the middle of their forehead) was replaced by a minor mark of making. Creating another subset of convoluted subplots (that our group had many of).
Have Fun
Okay, that was very cool. It also didn't irk me because Talon returned as a human. Again, awesome.
The empire of Ohr Kaluun was mentioned in Secrets of Sarlona as a place renowned for its arcane and divine prowess and deals with darkness. Paranoia and suspicion concerning Ohr Kaluun was one of the cornerstones of the Sundering; nations like Khalesh were tricked into attacking Ohr Kaluun. It was during the Sundering that the nation was destroyed (though I admit the EPG doesn't clearly state this - while the Quori were responsible, it wasn't THE INSPIRED who destroyed Ohr Kaluun, as at the time there were no Inspired). Per SoS, refugees from Ohr Kaluun fled east and made landfall in the Demon Wastes, forming the basis of the Carrion Tribes. Others survived in hiding, among other things creating the first skulks. And others landed in Droaam, founding the Venomous Demesne.
This remains true in 4E. Ohr Kaluun wasn't a 100% tiefling empire; it was a nation whose ruling class INCLUDING tieflings as well as humans. The refugees that fled to the Demon Wastes included humans and tieflings, and thus you have both in the Demon Wastes today.
So it's new in that tieflings have a more notable place... but it's not a transformation of Ohr Kaluun from a human nation into a tiefling nation. Rather, it was a blended nation in which certain family lines became tieflings.
The assumption I made when considering the place of tieflings in a 4th Edition Eberron was based on the comment in the original Eberron Campaign Setting that the Inspired were not entirely human in origin, but incorporated elven and fiendish ancestry.
It is reasonable to assume without need of retroactive continuity that the tieflings of Ohr Kaluun were a significant source of this fiendish contribution to the Inspired bloodlines.
It's an open question, then, as to whether the idea of creating—breeding—the original tieflings was really something that the families of Ohr Kaluun devised on their own, or if it was something that came to them in their dreams.
—Siran Dunmorgan
The assumption I made when considering the place of tieflings in a 4th Edition Eberron was based on the comment in the original Eberron Campaign Setting that the Inspired were not entirely human in origin, but incorporated elven and fiendish ancestry.
It is reasonable to assume without need of retroactive continuity that the tieflings of Ohr Kaluun were a significant source of this fiendish contribution to the Inspired bloodlines.
It's an open question, then, as to whether the idea of creating—breeding—the original tieflings was really something that the families of Ohr Kaluun devised on their own, or if it was something that came to them in their dreams.
—Siran Dunmorgan
See, now THAT is damn cool.
The assumption I made when considering the place of tieflings in a 4th Edition Eberron was based on the comment in the original Eberron Campaign Setting that the Inspired were not entirely human in origin, but incorporated elven and fiendish ancestry.
Yes, this had occurred to me as well.
It's an open question, then, as to whether the idea of creating—breeding—the original tieflings was really something that the families of Ohr Kaluun devised on their own, or if it was something that came to them in their dreams.
I hadn't taken it this far myself, but it's certainly an excellent idea and shows the concept of how long-term the Inspired work.
I dread the day, should it come, that one of my players wants to play a marked Warforged. It will be the biggest clash of my personal taste vs. player's desire I've ever encountered.
I simply can't imagine why Warforged should be 'marked, other than allowing Warforged players and even field in terms of options. (I've weighed myriad explanations and possibilities, so no one waste his or her breath trying to sell me no the idea ;) .)
I think our entire group is in agreement on this point, and I fully anticipate a hell of a backstory should one of our guys/gal ever come to the table with such a character. Still, it would take one hell of a concept to make this work, in my mind. Likely, the baffling "WTF? feel" of it would have to be worked right into the backstory.
I could see my NPCs having a joke at the Warforged's expense because of his "painting a dragonmark on himself".
Yes, but remember, the Creation Forges aren't perfect replicators. Who's to say one couldn't pop out with a mark in place (and how crazy would House Cannith be to figure out why this thing has a mark--a significant amount of the campaign might be spent on the run from Cannith artificers who want to vivisect the 'forged and figure out what's going on).
And remember, Merrix d'Cannith is still tinkering away with warforged design beneath the towers of Sharn. Who's to say he might not be specifically figuring out how to add dragonmarks to warforged, just to see if he could? There are probably a fair number of warforged experiments he's set loose in Sharn for whatever inscrutable reasons he has with his secret creation forge down there.
I've weighed myriad explanations and possibilities, so no one waste his or her breath trying to sell me on the idea.
I'm afraid I'm a stiff-necked, unreasonable lout who's unwilling to bend or compromise in this regard. It was a valiant try, though, and you fail to convince me through no fault of your own. ;)
In all honesty, it's simply never going to be to my tastes. I'll do my best not to berate or harrass my player should he/she choose to play such a character.
I can't make any promises, though. They're my friends, and I always reserve the right for unwarranted criticism and insults. :P
It would involve a creation forge being spun up in Cyre at a particular time, on a particular day.
At the very moment that that forge finished its job, and popped out a warforge, something happened.
Nobody knows why.
Nobody knows how.
Nobody knows if the two events are even related.
In fact, most people don't even know that the two events even happened at the same time, because every person in the room who would have known is dead.
Except for the warforged.
A warforged with an aberrant mark etched into its plating.
A warforged that crawled out of the ashes of the mournland into Khorvairian civilization.
A warforged with a very guilty continence...
...I just personally prefer to limit the overall number of races in the world, so as you say, it's a way to use a race that otherwise might not appear at my table. Hence my "metadeva" approach; I don't feel like adding another race, but the deva works exceptionally well as a manifestation within another race.
That's a pretty good idea. Keeping the mechanics around for the players that want them, but also maintaining the flavor you want for the world...
I bet you I can write you a backstory for a warforged with a dragonmark that you would buy. :P
It would involve a creation forge being spun up in Cyre at a particular time, on a particular day.
At the very moment that that forge finished its job, and popped out a warforge, something happened.
Nobody knows why.
Nobody knows how.
Nobody knows if the two events are even related.
In fact, most people don't even know that the two events even happened at the same time, because every person in the room who would have known is dead.
Except for the warforged.
A warforged with an aberrant mark etched into its plating.
A warforged that crawled out of the ashes of the mournland into Khorvairian civilization.
A warforged with a very guilty continence...
This summer! Starring Tim Allen as Pierce, Ellen Degeneres as Lei, and Danny DeVito as--Oh God I think I just vomited in my mouth... I'm sorry! I'm sorry! Purge! Purge!
Kill it, kill it WITH FIRE!!! :P
Yes, but remember, the Creation Forges aren't perfect replicators. Who's to say one couldn't pop out with a mark in place (and how crazy would House Cannith be to figure out why this thing has a mark--a significant amount of the campaign might be spent on the run from Cannith artificers who want to vivisect the 'forged and figure out what's going on).
I really wouldn't read this unless you've already read The Dreaming Dark novels or don't plan to ever do so, but...
Show
Lei is technically a dragonmarked warforged. However, the point there is that she DOESN'T have a dragonmark. She has abilities that mirror those of a dragonmark, and her parents branded her with a mark so know one would become suspicious. In other words, just because the character appears to have a mark doesn't mean that they actually DO. And, of coure, Lei didn't know any of this. So if your player really wants to be a warforged with a dragonmark and you don't like it, one option is to let him have it... and then later in the game, let him know what he's REALLY got.
There were many small things that annoyed me as I read the EPG. One of the most annoying was the warforged supposedly being able to remove and attach limbs at will.
Nived already mentioned that one, though.Another that really bothered me is the treatment of the Aereni. In the text, they are seemingly portrayed as necromancers. That's fine, right? Afterall, they do raise dead. I'm being picky about semantics, no?
Wrong. This atrocity (:P ) made it's way into the crunch, as well. The Aerenal Half-Life feat grants bonuses when using Necrotic powers. WTF?!
The Aereni hate negatively uncharged undead in 3E Eberron. The Deathguard is dedicated to destroying "negatively charged undead and the necromancers who create them". So, why the change? Don't tell me necrotic energy doesn't equate to negative energy, because it's clearly 4E's iteration of negative energy. Particularly in this case, I'd say the two are parallel.
I can only attribute this change in the Aereni to the following: 1) a terrible and unneeded retcon; or 2) a complete misunderstanding of the Aereni on the authors'/devs' part.
I, for one, will be changing the Aerenal Half-Life feat (and any similar to it) to radiant-focused feats. This is much more in line, in my opinion, with the positively charged Undying and their Irian-based origin. Irian is the "Eternal Day", last I heard. I don't anticipate this changing with the ECG. The EPG's Aereni seem to be confused, drawing power from Mabar.
In 4e, you can make the deathless good-aligned undead, is I guess what I am trying to say. Witness the Revenant.
I'll wager we're about to find out that undead=necrotic, and that the elimination of positive vs. negative energy has rendered the "deathless" distinction moot. Radiant energy is all about bright shiny lights - it has no place (IMO) anywhere near the undead. Deathless was all about making undead palatable.
In 4e, you can make the deathless good-aligned undead, is I guess what I am trying to say. Witness the Revenant.
I don't mind deathless being folded under the undead heading, but I do mind the change in related damage types. Nothing about the undead keyword inherently grants necrotic resistance or radiant vulnerability (even if such is a typical trait of most such creatures). As such I feel that the elves of the undying court, while still undead by keyword, should have their resistance/venerability reversed from that of the typical undead.
When will people realize-- the Mourning didn't trap the feyspires; the feyspires' appearance caused the Mourning! First the Valenar took a chunk of Cyre, and then the eladrin took the rest... They're all in it together. We gotta stop them!
Your imagination is getting the better of you. It's probably this old house of yours. Let me help you out. I know a couple of House Thuranni interior decorators who can really bring out the worth of any home. While they're doing that, why don't you take these two tickets to see a House Phiarlan performance? You'll find it at the end of Shadowbrook Alley. Tell them Pigeon sent you.
Another that really bothered me is the treatment of the Aereni. In the text, they are seemingly portrayed as necromancers. That's fine, right? Afterall, they do raise dead. I'm being picky about semantics, no?
As noted in the other thread, I agree with you that the Aereni Half-Life feat should benefit radiant as opposed to necrotic effects. However, The Aereni have always been gifted necromancers, as shown by the fact that the original Aereni Half-Life feat provided a +1 caster level to all necromancy spells. The necrotic energy bonus shows a misunderstanding of the Aereni, yes, but the description of them as "necromancers" is still apt. They understand all forms of necromantic magic, and Aereni is close to both Irian and Mabar; this is one reason the line of Vol were able to accomplish the things they did. However, the followers of the Undying Court consider negative undead to be vectors of darkness that harm the lifeforce of Eberron itself, hence the Deathguard. (Personally, I'd have made opposing negative undead one of the tenets of the religion in the EPG, but I didn't work on it.)
As noted in the other thread, I agree with you that the Aereni Half-Life feat should benefit radiant as opposed to necrotic effects. However, The Aereni have always been gifted necromancers, as shown by the fact that the original Aereni Half-Life feat provided a +1 caster level to all necromancy spells. The necrotic energy bonus shows a misunderstanding of the Aereni, yes, but the description of them as "necromancers" is still apt. They understand all forms of necromantic magic, and Aereni is close to both Irian and Mabar; this is one reason the line of Vol were able to accomplish the things they did. However, the followers of the Undying Court consider negative undead to be vectors of darkness that harm the lifeforce of Eberron itself, hence the Deathguard. (Personally, I'd have made opposing negative undead one of the tenets of the religion in the EPG, but I didn't work on it.)
Wow, a reply in each thread. Nice. ;)
Yeah, I'm well aware of the ties to both Irian and Mabar. If I recall correctly, the Madwood is tied to Xoriat, which would make at least three planes with strong influences in Aerenal (I only recall seeing this in The Crimson Talisman, though, so who knows...). The name, at least, recommends such a connection.
When I say "Aereni" are opposed to negatively charged undead, I should be more specific in saying "the Undying Court and those Aereni loyal to them" are opposed to such. Obviously, there was House Vol in times past, and elves like the Stillborn who follow a similar path even now. Such Aereni as these obviously don't share such qualms. Of course, the Deathguard shows no mercy in irradicating said people, either.
I agree wholeheartedly that it was a "miss" to not include this point as a religious tenet of the Undying Court. Little things like these may initially cause confusion for gaming groups new to Eberron. Most of us have a mountain of 3E material, but not all of us do.
When I first began to read the section on Deathless as a new type of creature, I was intrigued and immediately imagined transluscent, almost angelic or ghostly and beautiful elven heroes and princes and queens ...
... then I got to the very next page and
there was an illustration of a horrific, hideous mummified lich-like creature. In other words, undead. I thought to myself, "Hmm. This illustration by an artist who did not carefully read his instructions slipped past the editors." But then I saw the illustrations for a "deathless" warrior and the "deathless" court in Aerenal.Call undead "good aligned" and "deathless" and all, but a lich is a lich, and an entity that lingers in an unholy state of undeath, half-rotted and dessicated, is only worthy of a paladin's holy avenger.
If the gods have decided to rewrite the deathless as wicked necromancers versed in necrotic magic, then I see it merely as an acknowledgement of the ugly truth which cannot be washed away by elvish propoganda.
Oh, and werewolves and vampires are evil too
When I first began to read the section on Deathless as a new type of creature, I was intrigued and immediately imagined transluscent, almost angelic or ghostly and beautiful elven heroes and princes and queens ...
... then I got to the very next page and
Call undead "good aligned" and "deathless" and all, but a lich is a lich, and an entity that lingers in an unholy state of undeath, half-rotted and dessicated, is only worthy of a paladin's holy avenger.
That's just the thing, in 3E Eberron a Holy Avenger would not have been the weapon of choice for fighting the Undying. They may be emaciated, dried out husks, but they are not animated by the energy of Mabar. They are different than undead.
A Targath blade would've been effective, since it's anathema for unknown reasons. Holy power (or Radiant, now) is not particularly potent versus the Undying because it's the very force animating them, unlike the undead which are energized with the energies of Mabar.
The fact that Keith agrees this is a quasi-mistake by the authors of the EPG makes me assume that the ECG does not change the nature of the Undying from 3E to 4E. I'm thankful for that, as it would really cast the entire Aereni culture in a different light, in my opinion.
If the gods have decided to rewrite the deathless as wicked necromancers versed in necrotic magic, then I see it merely as an acknowledgement of the ugly truth which cannot be washed away by elvish propoganda.
The majority of Aereni hate negatively charged undead, and are actually dedicated to wiping them from existance. Changing this fact would destroy the feel of the Aereni culture, in my opinion.Regardless of their appearance, the undying are drastically different from undead. They may be grisly looking, but they are not half-rotten leaches feeding off the lifeforce of Eberron.
Oh, and werewolves and vampires are evil too
Man, this is Eberron. Even a vampire need not be entirely evil. ;) Granted, it would be hard not to lose your humanity as a vampire. There have been several interesting vampire characters in the Eberron novels.
Lycanthropes, though, are definitely not bound to the old alignments of the 3E MMs. There are non-evil werewolves in the world. Some of the Paladins of the Flame even recognized this, in some cases helping goodly lycanthropes escape to Lamannia or other refuges.
They understand all forms of necromantic magic, and Aereni is close to both Irian and Mabar; this is one reason the line of Vol were able to accomplish the things they did.
Always good to hear the good word straight from the horse's, er um, cow's mouth.
Seems to me that the Aereni Half-Life feat should, like the various elemental focus feats from the PHB, provide a bonus to two damage keywords, in this case both radiant and necrotic. That would make the Aereni more appropriate masters of life-and-death, rather than just masters of death.
Yes, but remember, the Creation Forges aren't perfect replicators. Who's to say one couldn't pop out with a mark in place (and how crazy would House Cannith be to figure out why this thing has a mark--a significant amount of the campaign might be spent on the run from Cannith artificers who want to vivisect the 'forged and figure out what's going on).
And remember, Merrix d'Cannith is still tinkering away with warforged design beneath the towers of Sharn. Who's to say he might not be specifically figuring out how to add dragonmarks to warforged, just to see if he could? There are probably a fair number of warforged experiments he's set loose in Sharn for whatever inscrutable reasons he has with his secret creation forge down there.
But the whole thing about the dragonmarks is that they are manisfestations of the Dragon Prophecy, and even the DRAGONS don't really understand that after millenia of study. So a dragonmark showing up on a warforged is no odder than one showing up on a hobgoblin - - it's not that Merrix D'Cannith figured out how to replicate the dragonmarks (though he's probably crazy enough to try) but rather that the Dracon Prophecy has marked that warforged for whatever reason it marks anyone.
And is a dragonmarked living construct that much harder to believe in than a "regular" living construct?
They may be emaciated, dried out husks, but they are not animated by the energy of Mabar. They are different than undead.
The majority of Aereni hate negatively charged undead, and are actually dedicated to wiping them from existance. Changing this fact would destroy the feel of the Aereni culture, in my opinion.
Regardless of their appearance, the undying are drastically different from undead. They may be grisly looking, but they are not half-rotten leaches feeding off the lifeforce of Eberron.
Hmm. As a Dungeon Master, I would have to rule that the elves SAY they are good and not undead, but that it is merely self-deluded or deceitful sophistry.
Anyways, I am a player in this campaign, so I guess my wizard, being more interested in arcane knowledge than other issues, will just go and find the secret of deathlessness for himself. :D
I don't mind deathless being folded under the undead heading, but I do mind the change in related damage types. Nothing about the undead keyword inherently grants necrotic resistance or radiant vulnerability (even if such is a typical trait of most such creatures). As such I feel that the elves of the undying court, while still undead by keyword, should have their resistance/venerability reversed from that of the typical undead.
I do feel that the distinction between deathless and traditional undead is an important part of Aereni culture. Per 3E, the concept was that there were important distinctions between the deathless of Aerenal and traditional undead empowered by Mabar. Negative undead feed on the energy of those around them, whether directly (energy drain) or in the claim of the Deathguard, by drawing on the lifeforce of the world itself. This makes them predators. The idea of the Undying Court has always been that they are sustained both by the energy of Irian and by the veneration of their descendents - positive energy freely given by the living. The key point here is that the deathless NEED the living; they can't TAKE the energy from the living, the require that freely given devotion, as opposed to the vampire who can take it by force. Most of the deathless remain in areas close to Irian (like Shae Mordai); when they go elsewhere, they do rely on the veneration of the local community (as called out in City of Stormreach).
So the point is that the line of Vol and the priests of Transition were pursuing very different paths. The line of Vol were creating self-sufficient undead, while the Undying Court depended on the community to survive - and claims that the creations of Vol are vile predators. Essentially, negative energy is anathema to life - and the deathless are not. Their continued existence is a gift, not something torn from others.
So yes, with that in mind, I'd still make them a positive force as opposed to a negative one. Really, the question is whether in 4E terms they are undead at all; I think the answer might be to give them the immortal keyword. A cleric shouldn't harm them using positive energy, as they are positive energy.
Hmm. As a Dungeon Master, I would have to rule that the elves SAY they are good and not undead, but that it is merely self-deluded or deceitful sophistry.
Anyways, I am a player in this campaign, so I guess my wizard, being more interested in arcane knowledge than other issues, will just go and find the secret of deathlessness for himself. :D
Since I didn't convince you of the importance and/or value in keeping the distinction between undead and undying, I direct you to post #84 by Hellcow. He didn't necessarily mention anything new, but perhaps he was more persuasive.
If he didn't sell you on the concept, I'm not sure you ever will be swayed. ;) I think your mind was made up when you made the mental connection between the 3E artwork and undead. There's nothing wrong with that, obviously, we each play in our own visions of the world.
For my purposes, though, houseruling the undying into undead ruins the Aereni culture. They don't need to actually be a culture of undead husks to be creepy. They are already creepy to most, as they are dried up undying husks. To the uninitiated, there's little difference. Only those who truly understand their culture could ever hope to fully accept the undying as a "normal" thing. I would expect that few outsiders ever do fully come to grips with the inherent creepiness of it all.
No longer is the "d" prefix before Dragonmarked names only for the 'marked scions. The EPG implied that all members of the Houses now use the prefix. Whether this was a conscious decision to cut down on the confusion of some, or whether this will contradict the ECG remains to be seen.
;)
The real confusion mostly started the moment a d´Velderan or a d´Torrn enters the stage.
;)
I'm having this same conversation with Monsieur Hellcow here
So yes, with that in mind, I'd still make them a positive force as opposed to a negative one. Really, the question is whether in 4E terms they are undead at all; I think the answer might be to give them the immortal keyword. A cleric shouldn't harm them using positive energy, as they are positive energy.
That would be going a little far in my opinion. The undying of the Aereni are still creatures of the NATURAL world, the same as most undead. Changing their origin to IMMORTAL seems unnecessary. Merely inverting their defense from the undead standard would seem enough (fundamentally that was the only mechanical distinction back in 3.5). An "undead" with resist radiant and vulnerability necrotic would still be subject to the effects of turn undead, but they would likely resist most, if not all, of the damage dealt, which would seem in line with the fact that a 3.5 cleric could still rebuke deathless.
...which would seem in line with the fact that a 3.5 cleric could still rebuke deathless.
It certainly would. The issue to me is that the fact that a cleric of the UC COULD rebuke deathless always seemed like an odd and somewhat inappropriate thing, which we justified as "They recognize your authority."
What I'm suggesting is a dramatic change that you won't see in the core rules. I'm just thinking out loud. My thought on using immortal specifically was based on the fact that the Undying Court is a divine power source - that taken as a whole, they are a god, one of the few provable sources of divine energy in the setting. As such, my thought with Immortal is that they are no longer natural - that they are approaching the divine.
What I'm suggesting is a dramatic change that you won't see in the core rules. I'm just thinking out loud. My thought on using immortal specifically was based on the fact that the Undying Court is a divine power source - that taken as a whole, they are a god, one of the few provable sources of divine energy in the setting. As such, my thought with Immortal is that they are no longer natural - that they are approaching the divine.
Being a tangible source of divine power is certainly worthy of consideration. I could certainly see the oldest and most ascendant councilors being IMMORTAL, though probably not the more common undying soldiers. However, regardless of whether they are IMMORTAL or NATURAL I would probably still leave them with the undead keyword (which is more like a sub-type in 4E mechanics). I would do this because to me they are conceptually very similar to undead. I view undead and deathless as being two sides of same coin. For me the undead keyword would serve as the unifying mechanic, while having inverted weakness/resistance pairs serves as the distinguishing mechanic.
For me the undead keyword would serve as the unifying mechanic, while having inverted weakness/resistance pairs serves as the distinguishing mechanic.
It seems to me that simply having seperate Undead and Undying keywords/subtypes would be simpler. Your proposal seems to add disclaimers and riders onto undead in order to reach the same effect. I'd go with the cleaner, simpler solution. That's just my opinion.
I do like the idea of the Undying as immortals, especially the reasoning behind the idea. There's definitely a case for it both mechanically and thematically.
I bet you I can write you a backstory for a warforged with a dragonmark that you would buy. :P
It would involve a creation forge being spun up in Cyre at a particular time, on a particular day.
At the very moment that that forge finished its job, and popped out a warforge, something happened.
Nobody knows why.
Nobody knows how.
Nobody knows if the two events are even related.
In fact, most people don't even know that the two events even happened at the same time, because every person in the room who would have known is dead.
Except for the warforged.
A warforged with an aberrant mark etched into its plating.
A warforged that crawled out of the ashes of the mournland into Khorvairian civilization.
A warforged with a very guilty continence...
I am SO STEALING this idea. :D :D :D :D
For my purposes, though, houseruling the undying into undead ruins the Aereni culture. They don't need to actually be a culture of undead husks to be creepy. They are already creepy to most, as they are dried up undying husks. To the uninitiated, there's little difference. Only those who truly understand their culture could ever hope to fully accept the undying as a "normal" thing. I would expect that few outsiders ever do fully come to grips with the inherent creepiness of it all.
If you're playing in 4th ed perhaps revenants could be incorporated into the Undying Court? Core fluff for revenants is they're created by the Raven Queen who dislikes undead. So it has a precedent for being good-aligned undead among those who dislike traditional undead.
It seems to me that simply having seperate Undead and Undying keywords/subtypes would be simpler. Your proposal seems to add disclaimers and riders onto undead in order to reach the same effect. I'd go with the cleaner, simpler solution. That's just my opinion.
Not really. Undead are typically resistant to necrotic and vulnerable to radiant, but those traits are completely unrelated to the undead keyword.
Tharag Bocc is absolutely correct. There's no "adding disclaimers and riders " to the undead keyword since necrotic resistance and radiant vulnerability has nothing to do with the undead keyword. It's merely a trend that many monsters with the undead keyword happen to have those resistances and vulnerabilities. There are already undead that don't have those typical resistances, like Discord Incarnates.
Switching up resistance/vulnerability to represent an Undying in no way is adding disclaimers or riders to the undead keyword. All the undead keyword means is "isn't a living creature, doesn't sleep, doesn't breathe". All of these things are true for deathless as well.
Switching up resistance/vulnerability to represent an Undying in no way is adding disclaimers or riders to the undead keyword. All the undead keyword means is "isn't a living creature, doesn't sleep, doesn't breathe". All of these things are true for deathless as well.
All of this makes sense.
With that said, "Undead" DOES carry baggage beyond "Undead are not living creatures, so effects that specifically target living creatures do not work against them. They don’t need to breathe or sleep." It carries the baggage of being affected by the many powers, abilities, and items that target undead, and that's the core issue here. Radiant resistance or not, should you be able to use Abjure undead on an Ascendant Councilor?
Looking to page 275 of the 3.5 ECS:
Deathless is a new creature type, describing creatures that have died but returned to a kind of spiritual life. They are similar in many ways to both living creatures and undead. However, while undead represent a mockery of life and a violation of the natural order of life and death, the deathless merely stave off the inevitability of death to accomplish a righteous purpose. While undead draw their power from the plane of Mabar, the Endless Night, the deathless are strongly tied to Irian, the Eternal Day, the birthplace of all souls.
Following text specifies that Deathless are essentially affected in the opposite manner by abilities that affect undead. Evil clerics can turn or destroy them. They gain the same benefits from consecrate and hallow that undead do from the reverse of these spells. They are healed by disrupt undead. And so on.
In 4E, the concept of "good clerics turn undead and evil clerics rebuke them" has fallen by the wayside. But the core issue in 3.5 Eberron wasn't good or evil; it was positive and negative. In 3.5, evil clerics channel negative energy - and THAT'S why they can turn deathless, while the good cleric can bolster them with positive energy. That's why disrupt undead heals them.
If you just give the deathless radiant resistance and necrotic vulnerability, they're still going to be bolstered by the bone knight and dazed by the power of the deathguard paladin, even if they aren't hurt by that paladin's radiant damage.
So as I see it, the question is how far you want to go with it. Leaving them as undead and swapping resistances is a solid, simple solution. But the original idea was that the deathless are fundamentally different from the negative undead - being closer to the pure soul at the start of life as opposed to the shadow that has escaped death - and that the difference between the two has played an important role in Aereni history and culture. The priests of Transition and the line of Vol were exploring fundamentally divergent paths towards immortality - and the difference between the two was significant enough that in the end they couldn't coexist in peace.
With that said, one of the clear goals of 4E IS to simplify things... as called out in the "orcs speak Goblin" discussion. So a critical question is, philosophy aside, is it FUN for deathless to be different? Does it provide you with the ability to have entertaining games that you can't have if they have the undead type? Is it worth the effort it would take to to create anti-deathless Channel Divinity abilities for the Blood of Vol and the like?
I don't know. I'm just brainstorming here, and I don't have a strong opinion. What matters to me is that the Aereni believe that the deathless represent a positive force in the world and that the undead produced by the Blood of Vol are a threat to life. But the fact of the matter is that the ECG doesn't actually provide deathless stats, for all that the deathless are mentioned (seems like a slip, but there it is) - so it's really up to you.
I don't really mind the lack of Least/Lesser/Greater marks, but, espeically with Siberys marks coming up in the novels, it would be disappointing for Siberys marks to go by the wayside.
Also, I assume there will be some mention of dragonmarked items that the houses use? Otherwise I really don't see how having the marks are all that massively an advantage anymore econoically for the houses.
Perhaps Deathless could be living contructs? It might make sense that way, except that Deathless would suddenly be able to use warforged components (I was kinda taken aback that components only required you to be a living construct instead of a warforged. I do believe there's already non-warforged living constructs in the game elsewhere.)
Also, "good" priests in 3.5 could still do things like Command Deathless, so I'm not so sure dazing or stunning an Undying with a channel divinity power is much of a problem. It could just be "pulling rank" on it.
On the other hand, if a house rule was implemented that stated that all divine characters who worship an evil aligned god, and divine characters that worship the Blood of Vol, have the "radiant" keyword of any of their powers replaced with necrotic, that changes things. With that house rule in place, I would probably implement a new keyword for monsters, "deathless," which works exactly like the undead keyword, except that the majority of divine character powers would not work against these creatures. I would then allow any character that worships an evil aligned god or the blood of vol to slightly alter any of their powers which specifically effect (or have an enhanced effect against) undead so that those powers instead effect (or have an enhanced effect against) deathless.
I'd want to keep things simple though and not create a new keyword just for one culture in one campaign setting.
Certainly. That's the exact same thought process behind having orcs speak Goblin in Eberron. I'm not saying it's a good idea to change them. I'm just thinking about what you might do if you wanted to - just like you COULD add Orcish back in as a language.
For what it's worth, I've never believed the deathless should be a phenomenon limited to Aerenal. I think that anywhere that you've got a powerful source of positive energy and devotion, it should be possible to have deathless. Hence the presence of deathless dwarves in Dragonshard (with the understanding that the final story you see in Dragonshard is fairly distant from its starting point).
Perhaps Deathless could be living contructs?
Very interesting idea... though as you say, the warforged components issue becomes a problem.
Also, "good" priests in 3.5 could still do things like Command Deathless, so I'm not so sure dazing or stunning an Undying with a channel divinity power is much of a problem. It could just be "pulling rank" on it.
Right, but looking specifically to the spell command deathless, it's a Deathless domain spell (so not something just any good cleric could get) and it specifically only works on Deathless. I think "pulling rank" is exactly the idea - but it has no effect on other undead. So having the priest daze Erandis Vol and an Ascendant Councilor with the same power sets them on a similar level... when per the mythology the two of them are supposed to be almost as far as you can go on the oppositve ends of the light/dark spectrum.
Again, 4E has sought to simplify, and the ECG DOESN'T introduce a new deathless type. I'm not suggesting you do. But it's an interesting question.
Anyway, if we have things like diabolic soul-sculptures and Mordain's hand-spiders that are living constructs, I think the type is diverse enough to include the Deathless. It would keep them from being effected by things that affect Undead, and they would count as living creatures, so you could say they are literally un-dying.
Also, I like the idea that Ascendant Councilors are Immortals, having "ascended" from being natural.
So I'd make an Undying Councilor or Warrior a Natural Humanoid (Living Construct) and an Ascendant Coucnilor an Immortal Humanoid (Living Construct)
There are some pretty cool ideas for handling the deathless listed above. I'm leaning toward the Immortal subtype, if and when this becomes an issue in our games, but there are merits to each of the above methods.
Another issue, albeit comparatively minor, is that if eladrin were present the whole time, do they look like 4e core eladrin? Why did no one notice pupil-less teleporting elves?
Because they were "present the whole time" either in invisible cities in out of the way places, or in numbers so small that you'd be lucky to see one in your lifetime; prior to the Mourning, your odds of seeing an Eladrin in Fairhaven would be about the same as seeing a drow in Sharn. And remember this is a world with kalashtar, tieflings, doppelgangers, drow, skulks, medusas, gargoyles, yuan-ti... running into a pupiless elf may be weird, but IMO most people would think it was an elf with some strange defect than "Hey! I'll bet that's a representative of an entirely new race I've never seen before." So they're becoming a little more common because more of them are leaving the feyspires and the spires themselves are exposed, so more people KNOW they are a race and not just strangely deformed elves. But that's a recent development.
At this stage I'm just hoping to see more details on the Druids in the Eberron Campaign Guide. The funky stuff on Totems was quite cool, though I was hoping for some sort of nice feat progression. Perhaps something thematically on Children of Winter wildshaping into bugs. Maybe something on how Ashbringer sect would be unwilling to use any powers with the Arcane Power Source . That sorta stuff.
Because they were "present the whole time" either in invisible cities in out of the way places, or in numbers so small that you'd be lucky to see one in your lifetime; prior to the Mourning, your odds of seeing an Eladrin in Fairhaven would be about the same as seeing a drow in Sharn. And remember this is a world with kalashtar, tieflings, doppelgangers, drow, skulks, medusas, gargoyles, yuan-ti... running into a pupiless elf may be weird, but IMO most people would think it was an elf with some strange defect than "Hey! I'll bet that's a representative of an entirely new race I've never seen before." So they're becoming a little more common because more of them are leaving the feyspires and the spires themselves are exposed, so more people KNOW they are a race and not just strangely deformed elves. But that's a recent development.
That totally makes sense. Eberron ftw!
While I'm no expert in this kind of field, I find it hard to see how more than 1% of the world's population could be considered upper class. I mean, even with abundant magic in your world, surely you need nearly everyone doing the "real work" in order for the privileged few to cream off the profits? If 10% of the world is rich, it's hardly an exclusive club anymore, is it? Go to the local hamlet, and out of 20 people, you've got 12 peasants, 6 merchants, and two rich snoots. Go to the local village of 200, and you've got 20 rich gits. In a city like Stormreach, you've got something like 2500 upper class citizens. It just seems crazy! What happened, did the Last War kill off 90% of all the peasants or something?
Now I'm no expert in Eberron, but I thought the idea was that high-level figures were supposed to be very rare. By inference, I'd have thought that the upper class would be similar - comparatively rare. I can, to a degree, live with the idea that 30% of people are middle class (well, at least in the cities - should probably be less in the villages etc) - after all, depending on how you define middle class, the modern world has a pretty large middle class compared to the lower class (depending on how much of the third world you include in your calculations), but even in our modern world of technology, the upper classes are still rare - 1% is a lot, you could argue less than 1% is a fair number for Eberron.
Anyone care to share their thoughts on that one?
BTW, I'm still reading the book, and love it so far - Eberron is a great fit for 4E, and as a guy who's DM'ing 4E using Eberron as the campaign world, I've found the EPG exceeds my expectations in terms of finding useful info and ideas for me as a DM. I just can't imagine the world with 10% of people belonging to any kind of "upper class"!
I'm not sure if this counts as a revision between 3.5 and 4E, as I don't know 3.5 Eberron very well, but one thing that smacked me around the head and made me ask "WTF" when reading the EPG, was where is said something like "60% of the population is lower class, 30% middle class, and 10% are upper class". That just feels so wrong to me that it's not funny....
While I'm no expert in this kind of field, I find it hard to see how more than 1% of the world's population could be considered upper class. I mean, even with abundant magic in your world, surely you need nearly everyone doing the "real work" in order for the privileged few to cream off the profits? If 10% of the world is rich, it's hardly an exclusive club anymore, is it? Go to the local hamlet, and out of 20 people, you've got 12 peasants, 6 merchants, and two rich snoots. Go to the local village of 200, and you've got 20 rich gits. In a city like Stormreach, you've got something like 2500 upper class citizens. It just seems crazy! What happened, did the Last War kill off 90% of all the peasants or something?
Now I'm no expert in Eberron, but I thought the idea was that high-level figures were supposed to be very rare. By inference, I'd have thought that the upper class would be similar - comparatively rare. I can, to a degree, live with the idea that 30% of people are middle class (well, at least in the cities - should probably be less in the villages etc) - after all, depending on how you define middle class, the modern world has a pretty large middle class compared to the lower class (depending on how much of the third world you include in your calculations), but even in our modern world of technology, the upper classes are still rare - 1% is a lot, you could argue less than 1% is a fair number for Eberron.
Anyone care to share their thoughts on that one?
BTW, I'm still reading the book, and love it so far - Eberron is a great fit for 4E, and as a guy who's DM'ing 4E using Eberron as the campaign world, I've found the EPG exceeds my expectations in terms of finding useful info and ideas for me as a DM. I just can't imagine the world with 10% of people belonging to any kind of "upper class"!
I think 10% is a fair number, the problem is that you're applying the statistic far to Broadly.
In a village of 20 you may have 2 rich snoots, the Lord Mayor and his Wife/Mistress. Equally as likely you may have a town like Mardakine from the Lost Mark Trilogy, where no one is particularly rich...
But go back and look at Cities like Sharn. There are 2 whole levels that are almost entirely devoted to the Upper Class, the Upper levels of the Plateaus and Skyway. The Dragonmarked Heirs to Houses would be considered Upper Class, along with those who are simply rich. And I always add successful Adventurers to the Upperclass bracket simply because of the amount of money they tend to collect.
Here's a good Example. In Sharn's Central Plateau we can look at Upper Central Plateau. It has a population of 8400 and is listed as an Upper Class district. Do you really think that 5040 people living in Central Plateau are Lower Class? I certainly don't. If anything maybe 10% of the people who live in Upper Central are Lower Class and they are all indentured servants of some description.
We can also look at Cliffside, a lower class district of 8800. Do we expect 880 Upperclass to live in Cliffside? I definately don't. In fact I'd be highly surprised if even 1 upperclass person lived in Cliffside.
The percentages are worldwide averages, not hard and fast numbers.
I'm not sure if this counts as a revision between 3.5 and 4E, as I don't know 3.5 Eberron very well, but one thing that smacked me around the head and made me ask "WTF" when reading the EPG, was where is said something like "60% of the population is lower class, 30% middle class, and 10% are upper class". That just feels so wrong to me that it's not funny....
While I'm no expert in this kind of field, I find it hard to see how more than 1% of the world's population could be considered upper class. I mean, even with abundant magic in your world, surely you need nearly everyone doing the "real work" in order for the privileged few to cream off the profits? If 10% of the world is rich, it's hardly an exclusive club anymore, is it? Go to the local hamlet, and out of 20 people, you've got 12 peasants, 6 merchants, and two rich snoots. Go to the local village of 200, and you've got 20 rich gits. In a city like Stormreach, you've got something like 2500 upper class citizens. It just seems crazy! What happened, did the Last War kill off 90% of all the peasants or something?
Now I'm no expert in Eberron, but I thought the idea was that high-level figures were supposed to be very rare. By inference, I'd have thought that the upper class would be similar - comparatively rare. I can, to a degree, live with the idea that 30% of people are middle class (well, at least in the cities - should probably be less in the villages etc) - after all, depending on how you define middle class, the modern world has a pretty large middle class compared to the lower class (depending on how much of the third world you include in your calculations), but even in our modern world of technology, the upper classes are still rare - 1% is a lot, you could argue less than 1% is a fair number for Eberron.
Anyone care to share their thoughts on that one?
BTW, I'm still reading the book, and love it so far - Eberron is a great fit for 4E, and as a guy who's DM'ing 4E using Eberron as the campaign world, I've found the EPG exceeds my expectations in terms of finding useful info and ideas for me as a DM. I just can't imagine the world with 10% of people belonging to any kind of "upper class"!
Eberron Campaign Setting, page 132, "Economic Means"
As for whether or not it's reasonable... I think that your idea of 'upper class' should extend to bureaucrats, the dragonmarked, nobility, their cousins, and so on. It starts seeming reasonable then, and any other difference I just shrug off and say "It's Eberron."
I think the idea is more to make you feel like its a world filled with bureaucrats and nobility ready to manipulate events
What happened, did the Last War kill off 90% of all the peasants or something?
Very likely actually. The rich don't fight the wars, they just buy the spears for the soldiers (recruited from the lower classes) to use.
*rimshot*
All those poor, lower-class magewrights who could only cast whispering wind, they died so young just to earn a few coins to feed their families... The backdoor draft is a horrible thing.
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What?
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What?
I refuse to explain my puns to you, good sir!
Is there anywhere that someone can still pick up pre-4E materials for Eberron? I like the setting, but I don't like the version of the setting being used with 4E. I'd like to convert some of the ideas into a different game system, but it seems pretty hard to still find pre-4E Eberron material.
I don't think there are really that many differences, but if you want the pre-4th edition books Amazon is probably your best bet.
Sometimes the small changes can be what define something...
Thanks for the advice. I figured that my best bet was just to hunt down the books, but I wasn't sure if there were any specific resources for material that would help.
Eberron Campaign Setting, page 132, "Economic Means"
As for whether or not it's reasonable... I think that your idea of 'upper class' should extend to bureaucrats, the dragonmarked, nobility, their cousins, and so on. It starts seeming reasonable then, and any other difference I just shrug off and say "It's Eberron."
I think the idea is more to make you feel like its a world filled with bureaucrats and nobility ready to manipulate events
OK, thanks, I see now it's no change from 3.5. I guess that, for me, the definition of "upper class" in Eberron is somewhat different than one that I would use (personally, I'd still classify a lot of these so-called "rich" people as middle class). So if I broaden out my definition of upper class, I can get my head around a 10% figure.
I do wonder if they missed an opportunity to re-visit the economics of the world under 4e, considering how Paragon and Epic-level really ramps up the cost of items - a standing joke in our group (currently 10th level) is how a PC could spend over 100,000 gold pieces an epic level potion that gives a re-roll at +6, gives 35 temp hp, or a similar one-off effect, or use that money to feed/employ thousands of people! Or does the seeming absurdity of 4e's money system, which seems to scale exponentially with level, actually make more sense when 10% of the population has thousands of gp, which implies that the top-end of the upper-classes must probably have the millions of gp required to make an epic-level PC economy work (i.e. there's people in the world who can actually buy and sell epic-level magic items)? I guess that's getting way off topic though...
Alright, here's a question: changelings. I'm not entirely fluent in 3.5 Eberron lore, but it's my understanding that one creation story was that these shapeshifters were the result of breeding between humans and doppelgangers. In 4E, the changelings in the EPG and the 'gangers in the MM seem to be hand-waved as pretty much the same thing. So is the human + doppelganger = changeling origin story completely out the airship hatch as a result, or is this merely a case of muddled flavor text?
I think the idea is that an NPC changeling is a basic, level 1, minion at best creature (if you were to fight them) like any other generic NPC of any race, whereas your average doppleganger is the level 8+ stuff you see in the MM. And then, as usual, PCs are exceptional. And awesome.
Keith said, recently I think, that Changelings are still called changelings because of the lore about women unknowingly sleeping with a changeling and birthing a gray mud-baby instead of a normal one, so there's the legend of having their baby replaced by a doppleganger one.
So, Human + Doppleganger may equal Doppleganger, and everyone just calls the offspring a Changeling cause the human is so shocked that their baby has been replaced.
I refuse to explain my puns to you, good sir!
How about explaining it to the rest of us?
if not, then don't make them.
I believe that humans and dopplegangers can still interbreed, it's just that the offspring may be entirely doppleganger.
Keith said, recently I think, that Changelings are still called changelings because of the lore about women unknowingly sleeping with a changeling and birthing a gray mud-baby instead of a normal one, so there's the legend of having their baby replaced by a doppleganger one.
Actually, that's always been my explanation of the name "changeling" for the race - it's not a new thing for 4E. That aside, exactly right. Previously, changelings were essentially "half-doppelgangers". Now, what we think of as old-school doppelgangers would simply be changelings that have developed their psychic and physical abilities, IE, reached a higher level. It's just a single race, and it's still possible for members of that race to crossbreed with humans (or, in my opinion, members of almost any other natural humanoid race) with a fairly even chance of producing a changeling child or a member of the other race.
How about explaining it to the rest of us?
if not, then don't make them.
Uhhh...seriously? Whispering wind? Draft? Come on, you can't get much more obvious than that pun.
Uhhh...seriously? Whispering wind? Draft? Come on, you can't get much more obvious than that pun.
If you say so, but perhaps there was a deeper intention with the pun
it's still possible for members of that race to crossbreed with humans (or, in my opinion, members of almost any other natural humanoid race) with a fairly even chance of producing a changeling child or a member of the other race.
There could be changelings amongst us everywhere ... everyone could be a changeling and not know it.
If you say so, but perhaps there was a deeper intention with the pun
These forums find intension in everything I write... sheesh.
We have more details about the planes, which have definitely been brought more in line with 4e cosmology. Thelanis, Dolurrh, and Dal Quor are part of the "Dragon Between," of which the world of Eberron is the centre. Khyber is the Elemental Chaos, which I suppose means that you have the surface of Eberron atop the Underdark atop Khyber atop the Abyss. Yes, the Abyss is a part of Eberron now. The "Dragon Below" also contains Fernia, Risia, and Kythri. Finally, the Astral Sea is beyond the Ring of Siberys, and is also called the Sea of Siberys. The remaining planes are part of the "Dragon Above": Baator, Daanvi, Irian, Lamannia, Mabar, Shavarath, Syrania, and Xoriat. Yes, you read that correctly: Baator is one of the planes. Also, the planes are ruled by representatives of the gods, except for Baator, which is ruled by Asmodeus, who claims to be a god.
Also, the planes are ruled by representatives of the gods...
This isn't actually entirely new. First, this only applies to the planes of the Dragon Above. The critical phrase comes in the overall description of the Astral Sea: "... Angels, immortal servants of the gods who claim to have a more perfect knowledge of the divine will than mortals do." Most places refer to angels "devoted" to deities. We'd already spoken of this in 3.5. When you use commune, or gate in a divine ally, what you are getting is a celestial being who BELIEVES itself to be a servant of the divinity (and believes this with an utter and absolute faith). Yet that angel has no direct, personal contact with the deity, any more than a human does. Its faith is simply unshakable because that's what it IS. The angel of war dedicated to Dol Arrah has no question as to whether or not Dol Arrah exists. It is a servant of war and light, and it is in its mind the expression of her will. But it's never met her. It's never spoken to her. It doesn't have to - it KNOWS what she wants, or at least believes that it does. Maybe it does, or maybe it's just an arrogant, self-important celestial *%&$.
Angels have become more widespread, because that is the concept of angels in 4E - that you can have an angel of the Mockery and an angel of Dol Arrah, as opposed to saying that an agent of an evil force has to be a demon or devil. So yes, angels can be found in many of the planes, not simply Syrania. But the angels should BE different, reflecting the concepts they represent.
Looking to the Dragon Above/Dragon Between/Dragon Below split, it's a shift, but essentially it's all about how you map the multiverse.
The planes associated with the Dragon Above are the ones mortals are least likely to touch. They exist as concepts that influence the word both philosophically and through manifest zones and planar influence, but you don't hop into them on a regular basis.
Those of the Dragon Between are the direct shadows of Eberron. Whenever you go to sleep, you go to Dal Quor. Whenever you die, you go to Dolurrh. And Thelanis has always been the easiest plane to slip into. Note that none of these planes have angels.
The planes of the Dragon Below tie to something I suggested in my Paizo conversion notes - that it is possible, should you find the right path, to physically walk from the surface of Eberron into the planes of Khyber. The Abyss now does exist, but simply as "the deepest part of Khyber". This is a key point that unites these together. Going down into the underdark of Eberron, you can find your way to Fernia... but you can't just walk into Irian.
It's certainly a change. And I would still dearly like to explore each of the planes in more detail. But again, I don't feel that I need to change any of the events of any of my novels as a result of this (and my novels have so far touched on Dal Quor, Thelanis, Fernia, and Syrania). And each of the planes still exists; we may now have said that Syrania is part of the astral sea of Siberys while Fernia is in the chaos of Khyber, but we still have Fernia and Syrania. It's largely metaphysical in nature - an argument between philosophers. The critical point to me is that Planar Influence remains: the manifest zones and the shifting influence of planes as they become coterminous and remote. Hence the continued use of the planar orrerry map.
As for Baator and Asmodeus... I got nothing there. I know lots of people in 3.5 were always asking "Where can we put the archdevils?" Well, now you have an answer. I'm likely to just ignore it, myself, but hey, I know a lot of people wanted it.
As for Baator and Asmodeus... I got nothing there. I know lots of people in 3.5 were always asking "Where can we put the archdevils?" Well, now you have an answer. I'm likely to just ignore it, myself, but hey, I know a lot of people wanted it.
As well may I. Personally I never had a problem finding a place to put the archdevils. I did the same thing with them as I did with demon princes, I used them as templates for Rakshasa Rhajas. This seemed to even be supported, as I recall one of my old Eberron books (Explorers Guide maybe?) stating that the frost giants of the north worshiped Levistus, a rhaja they believed to be imprisoned beneath the ice.
Anyway, beyond my disappointment with the addition of Baator as distinct plane (wasn't the original number of plane supposed to be significant?), I am also disappointed to see Dolurrh and Thelanis mapped directly to the shadowfell and feywild respectively. I rather liked how the H1 adaptation for Eberron referred to the shadowfell as being a sort of overlap of Dolurrh and Mabar, and so I hoped that they would each be made out as aspects of what is collectively known as merely the shadowfell in other worlds.
I am also disappointed to see Dolurrh and Thelanis mapped directly to the shadowfell and feywild respectively.
Honestly, this really doesn't bother me much. Because the ECG doesn't say "Dolurrh is the Shadowfell. Please refer to The Manual of the Planes for additional information." There's no Raven Queen in Dolurrh. You still have the fact that when Dolurrh is coterminous, raising the dead may draw unwanted spirits; when it's remote you might have to travel to Dolurrh to rescue the spirit of your allies.
So sure, it's called "Dolurrh, the Shadowfell". But to me as setting creator, all that's changed is the $%#&ing name. None of the stories I'd tell about Dolurrh in 4E will be any different than those I'd have told in 4E. If it makes it easier for people who DIDN'T play Eberron before to adjust to the world, swell. But in my opinion, it's more that the Shadowfell has been adapted to be Dolurrh... as opposed to Dolurrh being changed for the sake of the Shadowfell.
I feel the same way about Thelanis. I love Thelanis. It plays an important role in The Gates of Night. Nothing that's said in the ECG changes my impression of the realm, or contradicts anything I wrote in TGoN.
So personally, I'm happier to have the 4E concepts essentially be included in a minor way as opposed to transforming the planes themselves.
YMMV, of course... but like I said, to me what's important is that the description and character of the planes remain the same. The fact that the subtitle has changed doesn't bother me.
And no way in hell (no pun intended) is Asmodeus showing up in my Eberron as a god.
Well, just as an observation, you'll note that he doesn't show up in the deity lists of either the EPG or ECG AS a god, so you're not alone. The text states that he CLAIMS to be a god, nothing more. And frankly, while he's in there, the sole place he's mentioned is on page 261. Period. Easily ignored. It's not like he's added as a major player in the setting.
I think I like the new take on Eberron's planes a bit better than 3e's because it ties them into the world a little better. The planes were always a part of the world (as opposed to just being alternate dimensions), so integrating them into the Dragon Below/Between/Above just makes sense to me.
I do like how they used the Progenitor Dragons to explain the World Axis cosmology. It really makes it feel Eberronian. Coupled with the fact that the upcoming book for the Elemental Chaos is entitled "The Plane Below" and it makes perfect sense to map it to Khyber which has always been The Dragon Below.
I also like how the orrery is now a map of the wanning and waxing influences of the planes. In truth, the 3e Orrerry was much the same. It was never a physical map of the plane's layouts, because it's useless to think of planes of existance actually moving through the Astral and physically orbiting another plane of existance. The Orerry has always been a diagram of effect and influence, and nothing more.
Also, the new cosmology actually does something with the Plane of Shadow, previously just kinda sticking out like a sore thumb along with the Ethereal, and not really fitting in to the story of the setting. Personally, I still like to think of the Shadowfell as being mostly the Plane of Shadow, a pale reflection of Eberron, but if you, say, travel "up" you hit Mabar, the Endless Night (literally flying into the night sky of the Shadowfell) and if you travel "down" you hit Dollurh (literally the underworld, or "shadowdark" of the core cosmology) where souls hang out.
Honestly, this really doesn't bother me much. Because the ECG doesn't say "Dolurrh is the Shadowfell. Please refer to The Manual of the Planes for additional information." There's no Raven Queen in Dolurrh. You still have the fact that when Dolurrh is coterminous, raising the dead may draw unwanted spirits; when it's remote you might have to travel to Dolurrh to rescue the spirit of your allies.
So sure, it's called "Dolurrh, the Shadowfell". But to me as setting creator, all that's changed is the $%#&ing name. None of the stories I'd tell about Dolurrh in 4E will be any different than those I'd have told in 4E. If it makes it easier for people who DIDN'T play Eberron before to adjust to the world, swell. But in my opinion, it's more that the Shadowfell has been adapted to be Dolurrh... as opposed to Dolurrh being changed for the sake of the Shadowfell.
This much is true. It's probably not so much that I dislike the way the ECG handles it, but more so that I'm just disappointed because I preferred the way the H1 adaptation handled the concept.
Secondly: I always imagined that the archdevils (and the demon princes, for that matter) were native to Shavarath. They, and the archons, represent different aspects of war. The devils represent war as conquest. The demons represent war as destruction. The archons represent war as protection. The devils would be the fulcrum of the balance, allying with the demons or the archons as it suited them.
Personally, I threw in the eladrins as war as liberation. The eladrins would ally with the archons or the demons as it suited them, even though they find both distasteful to varying degrees. Just because they and the archons are both forces for good doesn't mean that they wouldn't have serious differences due to their differing ethical natures. Their differences would be just as profound as those between devils and demons, but it would be a cold war rather than a Blood War. They would fight each other from time to time (this is Shavarath, after all) but the usual course of action would be for one to usually turn a blind eye on those occasions when the devils and the demons were united against the other... at least until it looked like the fiends might win, in which case the cavalry would swoop in.
Personally, I still like to think of the Shadowfell as being mostly the Plane of Shadow, a pale reflection of Eberron, but if you, say, travel "up" you hit Mabar, the Endless Night (literally flying into the night sky of the Shadowfell) and if you travel "down" you hit Dollurh (literally the underworld, or "shadowdark" of the core cosmology) where souls hang out.
That's pretty much exactly what I was imagining when I was just reading about these changes!
Secondly: I always imagined that the archdevils (and the demon princes, for that matter) were native to Shavarath. They, and the archons, represent different aspects of war. The devils represent war as conquest. The demons represent war as destruction. The archons represent war as protection. The devils would be the fulcrum of the balance, allying with the demons or the archons as it suited them.
Speaking of things that have changed. Has the nature of the eternal war in Shavarath changed? Demons and Devils are still be pretty much the same, but the archons of 4E are nothing like the archons of 3E.
Secondly: I always imagined that the archdevils (and the demon princes, for that matter) were native to Shavarath. They, and the archons, represent different aspects of war.
I've always been of the opinion that the spirits of Shavarath - at least, as initially envisioned - were incarnations of war, representing the noble and evil aspects of war itself. The problem with this is that IMO this leaves them with very little interest in Eberron. They aren't interested in corrupting mortals; they have a war to fight. So what's the option for the DM who just wants a vrock in the Demon Wastes that has nothing to do with Shavarath?
With this in mind, when I worked on the Eberron conversion of the Savage Tide adventure path, I suggested that while they might be the most numerous of Khyber's spawn, the rakshasa weren't the only native fiends of Eberron. I presented the idea that Demogorgon was essentially a demi-Overlord trapped in Khyber itself - with the idea that the planes of the Abyss might actually be demiplanes within Khyber, that could be reached by traveling down into the world. The demons serving Demogorgon were thus creations of Khyber with no ties to Shavarath - chaotic embodiments of evil as opposed to the evil of war. They might be MECHANICALLY similar to the demons of Shavarath, but their motivations and behavior would be quite different - and my suggestion was that someone with decent Arcana could distinguish the two by studying them. So you have the eternal struggle of Shavarath fought by spirits of war, but you also have spirits of malice on Eberron, children of Khyber who also served the Overlords during the Age of Demons.
I don't have a particular point here, other than to say that I've always seen the inhabitants of Shavarath being spirits of war - but I feel that it's possible to find a niche for more traditional devils and demons if you want them. To me, a conversation with a demon of Shavarath should be quite different from one with an agent of Khyber.
Speaking of things that have changed. Has the nature of the eternal war in Shavarath changed?
Actually, yes. The war has been given an end goal and the idea that people are coming from other planes to fight there. I imagine that there will be people who prefer this, as it gives a motive for the battle that mortals can relate to. However, if you prefer it as a more metaphorical struggle fought by incarnations of battle, you can certainly hold onto the original idea.
So sure, it's called "Dolurrh, the Shadowfell". But to me as setting creator, all that's changed is the $%#&ing name. None of the stories I'd tell about Dolurrh in 4E will be any different than those I'd have told in 4E. If it makes it easier for people who DIDN'T play Eberron before to adjust to the world, swell.
It does. As someone who doesn't have any ECGs and whose players don't have the EPG I've been referring to the Shadowfell by both names. Its the Shadowfell a.k.a Dolurrh. This gives me and my players a distinct idea on what Dolurrh is. It has the shadar-kai, Although it doesn't have the Raven Queen. In my Eberron the Shadar-kai don't have a god that even resembles the Raven Queen.
Spoilers for my Shadar-kai
In my Eberron the Shadar-kai have lived there for as long as they remember. Ancient legends say the Shadar-kai were led to Dolurrh by a messiah/prophet/god to escape some sort of calamity. But many question these legends. Some say the gods do not exist. More recently (within the last few hundred years) there are those who say the gods have abandoned the Shadar-kai as a few Shadar-kai have traveled to the other planes and learned new concepts.
In my Eberron all of the Shadar-kai gave in to ennui and so they lived a meaningless and thoughtless existence within Dolurrh. Although about a thousand years ago at a time when Dolurrh was conterminous with Eberron, they were attacked by explorers from Eberron and felt pain. This sparked something within the few Shadar-kai who survived the attack, and slowly over that year they were able to gain a semblence of self through extreme experiences. In the following years the Shadar-kai have been relearning many concepts such as language and community. Now they have many cities spread throughout Dolurrh.
Yes all of this contradicts what Dragon #372 says about Shadar-kai in Eberron. But it makes more sense for my vision of Eberron and so I outright ignore what the article says
In my Eberron all of the Shadar-kai gave in to ennui and so they lived a meaningless and thoughtless existence within Dolurrh. Although about a thousand years ago at a time when Dolurrh was conterminous with Eberron, they were attacked by explorers from Eberron and felt pain. This sparked something within the few Shadar-kai who survived the attack, and slowly over that year they were able to gain a semblence of self through extreme experiences. In the following years the Shadar-kai have been relearning many concepts such as language and community. Now they have many cities spread throughout Dolurrh.
Yes all of this contradicts what Dragon #372 says about Shadar-kai in Eberron. But it makes more sense for my vision of Eberron and so I outright ignore what the article says
Considering the Silver Flame and Blood of Vol both grant channel divinities (well, the Blood of Vol does for me, even if I have to make one up ;)) I'm okay with Asmodeus granting one as well.
I'm all for DMs doing whatever's fun or makes sense to them. But just explaining MY view on "One of these things is not like the others"...
The Silver Flame is a known energy force with a clear global manifestation in the world (binding the Overlords). It's not necessarily "granting" Channel Divinity as much as the PC is learning how to tap into that energy source and draw power from it... which, after all, is why it's possible for a SF priest to use his power for evil purposes.
The Blood of Vol holds that the power you're drawing on is YOU. Their entire premise is that there is a spark of divinity in all living beings - that you, essentially, are your own god.
The Sovereign Host holds that the Sovereigns are part of the infrastructure of reality. Any time a smith lifts a hammer, Onatar is there with him. The Devourer is at the heart of every storm. There is no battle without the three faces of war. So the Channel Divinity is the character drawing on their favor, but they are omnipresent (presuming, of course, that they actually exist)... and in some ways you could argue that they too are energy sources. Dol Dorn supports any action of martial skill - your avenger may be better on drawing on his power, but he's not actually "listening" to a plea and deciding to help you, he's just present and you know how to draw on his strength.
So my question is that if you grant a CD to Asmodeus - who is a physically active being walking around doing things, someone you can get into a fight with - what does it mean? Is he literally hearing your call and granting your request? Could he choose to DENY your attempt to CD? If you can draw power from him, could he draw power from YOU if he decides to (like, say, when he's fighting some epic-level adventurers and needs a little boost)? If YOU get into a fight with him, can he snap his fingers and turn off all of your powers? Or is it actually the same premise as the Blood of Vol - You THINK he's granting you power, he CLAIMS he's granting you power, but the fact of the matter is that you're drawing on the Divinity Within, the force of the Shadow, or something else entirely. This is, after all, essentially the premise of the "Make Your Own Religion" approach in 3.5 Eberron - there are a range of power sources out there that you can draw on even if you THINK you're drawing on something else.
Again, I'm all for you doing whatever you want - I think there's some interesting possibilities here. I'm just saying that the Silver Flame and Blood of Vol are themselves quite different in nature... and Asmodeus is quite different as well.
Xoriat joined the Astral Sea (and Elemental Chaos) in the category of transitive planes (...kinda... more like category of 'planes not counted in 13-1 for various reasons' =P). This WOULD have broken it, but then they gave us Baator--which not only solves some people's problems of "Who's our interplanar bullies? We want our devils!" but keeps the 13-1 from being broken.
I do like how they used the Progenitor Dragons to explain the World Axis cosmology. It really makes it feel Eberronian. Coupled with the fact that the upcoming book for the Elemental Chaos is entitled "The Plane Below" and it makes perfect sense to map it to Khyber which has always been The Dragon Below.
Personally, I still think they made the 4E cosmology more like the 3 progenitor dragons of Eberron and went from there. Because it honestly seems to fit very well. Albeit, I'm not sure why Baator was put in there because even with my (generally limited understanding) I never had a problem with the idea devils were just a kind of daemon that came from Kyber.
I don't understand why Xoriat is in the astral sea. I thought it was a part of the Dragon Below? I'm confused.
It's neither. Per the current cosmology, Misterfido has it right. Xoriat is actually a separate, fourth category - thus merging it with the traditional idea of the Far Realm. Hence it's present, but as a distant dot on the map.
Oh so it's still effectively just 13 planes, with Xoriat out there doing its own thing and wanting to eat everyone with horrible tentacles?
Essentially. How this merges with the idea that the progenitors might have created the planes (and thus that Khyber spawns aberrations, IE aboleths, as well as Xoriat) is an open question; it could be an argument for giving "native" aberrations stronger ties to Xoriat.
With that said, we know that the daelkyr have created new aberrations on Eberron (dolgaunts, dolgrims) and that others have duplicated their techniques (Mordain). So it's certainly possible to have aberrations that don't come FROM Xoriat, but they may be touched by it in some way.
Or did the spelling officially change?
Mildly problematic that they've misspelled Siberys on the map.
Well, THAT'S embarrassing.
No, it didn't officially change. Blame House Sivis for using the Old Common spelling. ;)
Essentially. How this merges with the idea that the progenitors might have created the planes (and thus that Khyber spawns aberrations, IE aboleths, as well as Xoriat) is an open question; it could be an argument for giving "native" aberrations stronger ties to Xoriat.
I've always imagined the Far Realm as basically "What's outside the universe". Like, our universe has finite but expanding borders... well, what lies outside those borders when the universe hasn't pushed it out of the way?
The Far Realm. At least, if this were a fantasy world we lived in =P
I'd probably apply similar logic to the Far Realm... when the progenitor wyrms broke apart the planes in their struggle for the Prophecy, all that remained was the Far Realm. When they became the new world, they pushed the Far Realm out of the way...
And as for Khyber spawning aberrations... well, if my thoughts above were right, it seems right that Khyber would borrow the maddening designs of the Far Realm he used to fight in for his creations. Or, he tried creating things, but as the world was cooling it was easy for the Far Realm to influence his designs...
Though personally, I like the latter, that all aberrations are in some way mutations of a progenitor creation, touched by the Far Realm.
Is he literally hearing your call and granting your request? Could he choose to DENY your attempt to CD? If you can draw power from him, could he draw power from YOU if he decides to (like, say, when he's fighting some epic-level adventurers and needs a little boost)?
Core 4th ed answers this question for most divine classes
As a cleric, your deity does not grant you powers. Instead, your ordination or investiture as a cleric grants you the ability to wield divine powers. Clerics are usually formally ordained by existing clerics who perform a special ritual to do so....What you do with your powers once you are ordained is up to you, although if you fragrantly and openly defy your deity's tenets, you quickly earn the enmity of the faithful.
Paladins are not granted their powers directly by their deity, but instead through various rites performed when they first become paladins.....Once initiate, the paladin is a paladin forevermore. How justly, honorably or compassionately the paladin wields those powers from that day are forward is up to him, and paladins who stray too far from the tenets of their faith are punished by other memembers of the faithful.
This makes a point of saving the gods don't grant you your powers. So even if Asmodeus is a divine being he still can't take your powers away from you any. Avengers make a point of spelling that out
nothing can remove the spark of divine power within you. What you do with that power is yours to decide.
The only sticking point are Invokers. But I'd argue that they require a little bit of work to fit in Eberron no matter what.
Core 4th ed answers this question for most divine classes...
Right. I was addressing your point that "If the Silver Flame can do it, why can't Asmodeus". My point is simply that the two are entirely different things. Beyond that, I honestly don't care about the fluff of a class description in a core book; I'll make whatever change to the class I need to in order to get the flavor of Eberron. So to me, the avenger of the Silver Flame is drawing on the Silver Flame; I don't care if the core book says it's a spark of divinity within. That's what the avenger of the Blood of Vol is drawing on... and the cleric of the Blood of Vol, and the paladin of the Blood of Vol, and for that matter the invoker of the Blood of Vol. They may ue the powers they draw from their different sources in different ways, but the in MY campaign, the avenger of the Blood of Vol and the avenger of the Silver Flame are empowered in different ways. Sure, neither of them can suddenly lose their powers, which is what that piece of flavor in the PHB/PHB2 is there for. But beyond that they are different.
Which brings us back to Asmodeus. FOR ME, I don't care what the PHB says; I want to know what it MEANS for someone to be drawing divine power from Asmodeus. Again, with the Silver Flame, it IS a source of pure energy waiting to be tapped. Now, the BoV draws power from within... so perhaps Asmodeus is simply fooling his followers, claiming to grant them power that comes from within. Perhaps the power is actually that of a true god. Perhaps he CAN personally and directly grant them power - but in that case, he's in a unique position in the world, and I would want to explore that and MAKE it feel different, PHB fluff be damned. Of course, if I was going to do something that could be detrimental to the PC - like say he could take powers away - I'd talk about it with the PC before hand and see if he wanted to play this. I can see all kinds of interesting stories. But I'd want to make sure the PC wanted to PLAY those stories.
Mind you, I'm literally playing devil's advocate here. Per the ECG, Asmodeus isn't actually described as HAVING followers. He's not on the list of Eberron religions. I'm just looking at what I'd do if I did use him. My main point is that the core class description fluff is definitely at the absolute bottom of the list of things I take seriously. My last avenger was empowered by the vengeful spirits of people who'd been murdered by a cult, and the way I saw it, if he ever completely defeated the cult, they'd probably leave him and he'd be powerless. His Armor of Faith was literally these spirits swarming around him. His Jack of All Trades was their voices. For that matter, he was mechanically a deva, but for story purposes a human empowered by spirits (so not white and purple, and his Memories of a Thousand Lives were THEIR memories). The core description is certainly something I use as a GUIDELINE, but I don't feel trapped by it.
Right. I was addressing your point that "If the Silver Flame can do it, why can't Asmodeus". My point is simply that the two are entirely different things.
Still from my understanding of the two religions: I'd say the Silver Flame and the Blood of Vol are both very, very different. One is a power source/prison while the other is a religious movement whose entire basis may be a complete fabrication from either a malicious or deluded person from the past (very ancient past if I understand rightly).
Despite that, they both grant channel divinities. As such, if these completely different "religions" can grant a channel divinity. Then why not let the worship of Asmodeus have one as well?
My point was
Is he literally hearing your call and granting your request? Could he choose to DENY your attempt to CD? If you can draw power from him, could he draw power from YOU if he decides to (like, say, when he's fighting some epic-level adventurers and needs a little boost)?
isn't an issue in 4th ed, unless you go out of your way to make it an issue. To make it an issue requires two changes to the fluff. One change being that Asmodeus is definitely a divine being (as you said the ECG doesn't even say he has followers) and the other change is that he specifically grants people their powers as a cleric/paladin/whatever.
I personally feel that the Cleric, Paladin and Avenger fluff work just as well in a campaign with gods as they do in a campaign without. For me, that's perfect for Eberron where no-one is sure on whether or not the gods actually exist.
in MY campaign, the avenger of the Blood of Vol and the avenger of the Silver Flame are empowered in different ways.
In my campaign an avenger of the Silver Flame is imbued with a spark of the Silver Flame while an avenger of the Blood of Vol manages to unlock part of the divinity within.
OR they might simply have had a ritual performed on them that taps into some other worldly source as no gods actually exist. Or they might be incorrectly channeling the power of the Sovereign Host because they are the only gods in existence.
I often change my mind on whether or not the gods exist in my version of Eberron (or whether a specific entity is a god or if its just a prison). So I'll probably never decide for sure ;)
The core description is certainly something I use as a GUIDELINE, but I don't feel trapped by it.
Agreed. The fluff for clerics, paladins and avengers jives well with my vision of Eberron. So I use it. Different strokes for different folks
One is a power source/prison while the other is a religious movement whose entire basis may be a complete fabrication from either a malicious or deluded person from the past (very ancient past if I understand rightly).
I'd definitely argue over this description of the BoV.
If your "malicious or deluded person from the past" is Erandis, she wasn't actually responsible for the spread of the beliefs of the Blood of Vol. The first seeds were planted while she was still in deep hiding following her death; it took quite some time before she could risk reaching out to the outside world, and by that time the foundation was already there.
So where did it come from?
First you have the Qabalrin, the first mortal humanoid students of necromancy. Their civilization is destroyed by the fall of the Heart of Siberys, but some refugees survive. Their traditions make their way through the elven exodus and form the basis of the beliefs of the Line of Vol, which forms a philosophical counterpoint to the early priests of Transition and Undying Court. The driving force behind elven culture at the time was to find a way to prevent the terrible losses they'd just had - to preserve their greatest minds and souls. The Transition movement followed the idea of the Deathless - preserving souls with spirit idols at first, and later as deathless; the issue here is that the deathless require a source of positive energy to sustain them, whether a direct link to Irian or the energy generated by the devotion of their ancestors. The Tairnadal followed the avatar path - the idea that the souls of past heroes could be preserved by living on through descendants who emulated their deeds. And then you have the line of Vol, searching for another path to immortality that wouldn't have the restrictions imposed on the Deathless. The Tairnadal split off and became a separate culture. The Vol and Transition movements remained as rivals, each gathering followers from other lines. The Mark of Death appears; the line makes deals with dragons to try to perfect the mark; and this leads to the birth of Erandis and the destruction of the line of Vol.
But what was eradicated was ONLY the line of Vol. Other elves that supported the line were permitted to change their ways or leave the land, and most took the latter approach. So it was these elves and those associated with Phiarlan (which didn't like the precedent set by the erradication of a dragonmark) which formed the initial wave of elven immigrants to Khorvaire. Many of the former followers of the line brought their beliefs with them. This was then picked up by the humans around them and modified slightly over the course of centuries.
This is one reason Erandis doesn't care much about the beliefs of the BoV. It's not her faith; it's a faith based on the traditions of her family, and she's more concerned about ANOTHER goal of her family, namely perfecting her mark.
So the BoV isn't a "fake" religion. It's something that has been around in some form or another for over thirty thousand years. The Line of Vol didn't use exactly the same rituals or terms as the people of the modern BoV, but the same thing can be said of the giants who worshipped Ouralon and the modern worship of Aureon. Pop back to Aerenal four thousand years ago and you'll at least be able to recognize the basic form, even if specifics have changed.
Beyond that, it's about power. The Silver Flame is a pool of power created by the gestalt souls of the couatl. The power of the BoV is drawn from your soul - it's saying "You are your own Silver Flame". I'm just saying "If you worship Asmodeus and gain power, where exactly is it coming from?" It could be coming from the exact same place as the BoV - you THINK it's coming from Asmodeus but you're wrong. It could be coming from one of the Sovereigns or Six, if you as DM believe in them; it would be just like the Traveler to play a little game with both mortals and Asmodeus himself, letting the devil THINK he's a god until the time is right to change things. This is the fundamental principle of old Eberron; after all, we used to say you could worship your shoe and get spells. The question there was still where that power was coming from, because it's not actually coming from your shoe. So is generated by your faith alone? Is it Kol Korran in his guise as patron of travel? Or the Traveler again, playing another game?
So you should certainly be able to have someone worship Asmodeus and gain divine power. Why not? It beats a shoe. I'm just saying that to me, determining the source of that power would be an important thing for me as a DM. The sources of power of Silver Flame and BoV are both known. But what's Asmodeus? And how does the fact that he's an intelligent active being impact this, if at all? For me, this is what would actually make it worth doing. I'd WANT it to be different... to find ways to make it FEEL different from worship of a Sovereign, and to have it play out in an interesting way in the campaign. But that's me.
Agreed. The fluff for clerics, paladins and avengers jives well with my vision of Eberron. So I use it. Different strokes for different folks
Certainly.
If your "malicious or deluded person from the past" is Erandis
It wasn't. I thought the whole idea of "divinity within" might have had a more definitive point of origin. Although by the sounds of it, it was a general evolution that people didn't see coming until it had become commonly accepted by certain families.
This is the fundamental principle of old Eberron; after all, we used to say you could worship your shoe and get spells.
I think that sums up how I feel
Lammania is no longer the home of lycanthropes following the Purge. Thelanis now holds that honour.
That's another change I don't really understand. I'm left asking "Why?" Surely Lammania is thematically better? Plus, it gives Lammania a bit of a twist to further differentiate it from Thelanis.*
I really do think Lammania has suffered in the edition change, or at least hasn't been given the attention it should story-wise. There was real potential to tie it to elemental or primal forces, but now (and the ECG all but admits this) it's just seems to be the Feywild but in the Astral Sea instead.
*EDIT: I haven't read much of the book yet, so it's possible I've missed some detailed explanation of the circumstances elsewhere. ;)
Was the Chaos Fleet in 3e? I really, really can't wait to use them! :D
The Chaos Fleet and the Fading Dream are both new threats for 4E.
Well, just as an observation, you'll note that he doesn't show up in the deity lists of either the EPG or ECG AS a god, so you're not alone. The text states that he CLAIMS to be a god, nothing more. And frankly, while he's in there, the sole place he's mentioned is on page 261. Period. Easily ignored. It's not like he's added as a major player in the setting.
My personal thought is that he exists there so that some Lord of Dust Rakshasa can come and overthrow him in a story somewhere down the line, so we can have a real Lord of Dust ruling as a God somewhere for Epic Level play...
... but that's just me.
It's funny, but I ended my 3.5 campaign with a freed Dealkyr lord giving the PCs a speach about how little they actually knew of the multiverse, and how Xoriat was not merely a tiny isle of "perfection" (as he called it) orbiting their debased mundanity (Eberron), but rather an "Ocean of Beauty" surrounding it on all sides.
I didn't know it at the time, but I guess I was forshadowing the World Axis cosmology.
Lammania is no longer the home of lycanthropes following the Purge. Thelanis now holds that honour.
That's another change I don't really understand. I'm left asking "Why?" Surely Lammania is thematically better? Plus, it gives Lammania a bit of a twist to further differentiate it from Thelanis.*
I can't much comment on how that particular revision makes me feel about the official setting, however, this change does makes me feel more confidant in my personal revised Eberron cosmology where Lamannia and Thelanis are jointly known as the Feywilds.
Another small change I noticed last night was the origin of the dwarves; the ECG seems to imply that they came from the underdark, not the Frostfell.
Nothing new here, actually. If you check this Dragonshard, you'll see that the dwarves came from the Frostfell and then settled BENEATH the Ironroot Mountains. This is also mentioned in the History section of the original Player's Guide to Eberron. And looking to the ECG, page 36 still mentions dwarves coming from the Frostfell.
Nothing new here, actually.
I totally forgot about that part of their history! :embarrass Guess I better start double checking stuff.
Perhaps there are some Gatekeepers who purposely want other people to remain in the dark about Xoriat, out of fear of the repercussions that could come from it.
You, my friend, inadvertently gave me an idea I just fell in love with.
I skimmed over your post, and saw "Gatekeepers" and "remained" and "Xoriat" and thought "Hmm... wouldn't it be interesting if, during the Xoriat invasion, a few Gatekeepers went to Xoriat to fight the battle there... and they were still there, somehow? A little bubble of 'anti-insanity' maybe, or maybe they're all insane... or maybe they formed a rebellion (somehow) of aberrant druids...
Nothing to do with what you said but it's a very interesting thought =P
Oh sure the non-Euclidian mind rending physically impossible cosmic vistas with their colors out of space, and tenticled horrors and unnamable things are all well and good... don't get me wrong...
But in a way it being just that is limiting. There are so many other, more subtle shades of madness, just a for instance, a druid trapped on the fringe of Xoriat is continually trapped in that last day of his but each time it ends he ends up in the role of someone else that day, today he's the druid leading the ritual, tomorrow he's the hobgoblin trying to hold the line... but he knows damnit he knows he's in a timeloop and he can't get out of it.
Or was that an Outer Limits?
It helps explain how mind flayers can be conquerers of worlds, and enslave the gith, and whatnot, at least.
In all that space, I'd have room for everything... non-Euclidian physics, storms of anti-time, alternate realities with maddening tweaks, planets and moons and galaxies with Lovecraftian creations inhabiting them...
Sure, some areas invoke immediate mind breakage to mortals... but in that vast expanse, there's room for a little of everyone's favorite sort of insanities =P
...of course, even if I invoked mind-shattering fractures in the anti-reality of the Far Realm, it'd probably impact the party more like 8 bit theater #1154 =P
I personal like the old way of doing it because it seems like its redundant to use d'Cannith to tell people that "hey, your a dragonmark house member" when the name Cannith should explain it well enough already.
Considering these people had a war a long time ago over who would be "official" marks or not, i wouldn't put it past the houses to prevent others families from using their name.
Its not something i am going to follow personally but why was it chosen to have d' used for all dragonmarked house members over just those with marks and use Lord/Lady to define those with marks? i find the concept of using Lord and Lady also problematic because i always liked to give nobles and dragonmarks different flavor and if both groups use the same titles then i feel it blurs the line a bit.
I personal like the old way of doing it because it seems like its redundant to use d'Cannith to tell people that "hey, your a dragonmark house member" when the name Cannith should explain it well enough already.
Considering these people had a war a long time ago over who would be "official" marks or not, i wouldn't put it past the houses to prevent others families from using their name.
It's somewhat always been like that.
Page 138, ECS--says those with dragonmarked BLOOD, not those with dragonmarks, have d'.
And those with dragonmarks are pretty much the nobility of their houses--and since the houses are richer than God, that pretty much makes them nobility in general. "Lord" and "Lady" were probably never prescribed, but I bet if I were to look up all the dragonmarked scions in the various books, I'd find a lot of lords and ladies.
And even if you didn't, if I were a player, and I walked into Merrix d'Cannith's manor, I'd address him as Lord.
Anyway. d'Cannith has always been 'blooded', Cannith is just 'married' or 'adopted'.
From THAT perspective, adding 'Lord' and 'Lady' makes SENSE, since we formerly never had a clearly defined distinction between marked and unmarked.
Incidentally, whre does it say they have to be Lord or Lady? =p
It's somewhat always been like that.
Page 138, ECS--says those with dragonmarked BLOOD, not those with dragonmarks, have d'....
...Incidentally, whre does it say they have to be Lord or Lady? =p
Well, i guess i am wrong on my assumption... but i am still not going to use d' for anyone but those who have marks in my games.
The Lady/Lord comment comes from the New Eberron Campaign Guild, Page 208; House Structure and Hierarchy.
If the old does still apply it doesn't say it uses d' for only those of the blood family not those brought in... then it needs to be covered in some way because it doesn't explain the d' in the new books.
I would agree that using Lord or Lady is a sign of respect but title is different in my mind. When ever piece of paper they sign or ID Papers have it written on it, then its more then someone respecting the strength and power of the house.
I would also think the royal family who forced the Houses to give up land rights in the Edicts of Korth would also limit their ability to use their Name sake title to give them isolation between themselves and the quasi-nobles.
The Chaos Fleet and the Fading Dream are both new threats for 4E.
Both of whom are pretty neat I must say.
....TMI?
....TMI?
Nope! :fight!:
I found another change in the setting. Apparently the Stillborn faction in Aerenal has been renamed Skullborn for some reason. Personally I much prefer the original name, although I do wonder why it was changed.
I dunno about the stillborn faction because I'm unfamiliar with Aerenal lore, but I'd say if it has been renamed, it's because stillborn means something that can be quite depressingly reminiscent to a lot of women who failed to be mothers.
I may be misremembering 3.5, but in the 4e EPG kalashtar speak only common and not quori. Is this a change? Shouldn't they also speak Riedrian?
They spoke common and quor, with bonus languages including Riedran. However in 4E Quor is not the language of the Kalashtar people, it's the language of their scholars. Kind of like latin is to us: nobody uses it, except in academic circles.
Riedran would make sense, except Kalashtar don't need language in their homeland. They can have two-way communication with anyone with a mind and a language. And since all races who don't normally speak common get it if they're PCs, think of it not as:
"Kalashtar speak common, and are also telepathic."
but
"Kalashtar are telepaths in their homeland. But PCs in Khorvaire learned common as a second (first?) language."
Sarlona campaigns are, by definition, house-ruled by the DM, since most of the available races aren't available, their languages aren't spoken, most classes aren't available... so in the circumstance a Sarlona campaign comes up, it's only one more house rule to make them speak Riedran instead of Common.
And it'll never really impact play, either, because the only other people they'd meet who MIGHT speak Riedran are other kalashtar or inspired, who are all telepathic =P
EDIT: Also, I'm really tired as it's late. All that made some sort of sense to me at the time.
They spoke common and quor, with bonus languages including Riedran. However in 4E Quor is not the language of the Kalashtar people, it's the language of their scholars. Kind of like latin is to us: nobody uses it, except in academic circles.
As per the topic, a change, and one I don't agree with, IMO. I'd like a kalashtar character to know it but I don't want to spend a feat to get it. I'm not to thrilled with languages in 4e being separated from skills, but a minor issue overall.
Riedran would make sense, except Kalashtar don't need language in their homeland. They can have two-way communication with anyone with a mind and a language.
Well, they can speak telepathically to anyone within 5 squares, so all public assemblies have to be held in small rooms or one kalashtar every 25 feet gets to play the telephone game. Maybe purple monkey dishwasher is a prayer to il-Yannah in 4e? That says nothing about having a language to read, which isn't covered by telepathy.
EDIT: Also, I'm really tired as it's late. All that made some sort of sense to me at the time.
You were really tired when you wrote it and I have had no coffee when I read it, so it all balances out. :D
Sarlona campaigns are, by definition, house-ruled by the DM, since most of the available races aren't available, their languages aren't spoken, most classes aren't available... so in the circumstance a Sarlona campaign comes up, it's only one more house rule to make them speak Riedran instead of Common.
I agree with this. Riedran is essentially "Sarlonan Common". Most humans, shifters, changelings, etc in Sarlona shouldn't speak Common at all. Conversely, a kalashtar raised in Sharn is unlikely to know Riedran, because he's grown up in a culture that speaks Common.
With that said, as a DM, I would probably let a PC whose background is that he's from Sarlona take the Riedran language as a background benefit, along with a +1 bonus to one of the associated skills instead of the usual +2. So it does essentially translate to "Lose a skill point to gain a language." This is actually weaker than, say, the Aglarond background in the FRPG, which grants a language, a class skill, and a +1 to that class skill... but there it is.
And yes, while it is my belief that telepathy plays an important role in kalashtar culture, it's too limited to be their sole form of communication, especially as they share their communities with non-telepathic humans; I'd have their langauges be Riedran and telepathy.
Quor is something we decided makes more sense as an obscure language. The INSPIRED know it, because the Inspired ARE quori spirits. It's their native language. But the kalashtar are not communicating with their quori spirits through conversations; the communication between kalashtar and spirit is one of empathy, memory, and dream, and as such more like telepathy than a language. Kalashtar have learned it to better understand the history of their kind and for dealing with the Inspired, but it has no place in the daily life of, say, a kalashtar born in Sharn.
I don't know why I've always liked that house, I've use a Ghallanda heir as a villian (because honestly, they're the last ones anyone would ever suspect) and have played a Ghallanda scion twice, even though they're a house unlikely to produce adventurers.
Everyone likes them, they're everywhere, they know things without expressly being spies. Maybe I just like playing an unexpected or hard concept, but I always liked them... but they always seemed to be the odd duck of the Dragonmarked Houses, even more than Vadalis and Medani who at least had badass beasts and badass inquisitives going for them Ghallanda seemed to be badass free.
The EPG gave me some hope, the PP they had is solid and their dragonmarked feat is nice and useful (and my DM has been open to expanding that ritual list with rituals from Arcane Power, like unseen servant, and PHB2), but it wasn't until the ECG that they really stepped up and seemed like they belonged amongst the rest of the houses.
I love their role in the last war (even if our home games implied that relationship between Deneith and Ghallanda already) but its the sanctuary aspect that really struck me. It makes perfect sense, and it takes Ghallanda from 'those halflings that own the inns' to major players in the information trade and changes their enclaves into some of the most lurid adventure sites within the major cities.
I've been a fan of this little oft forgotten house for a long time, and those two pages in the ECG had me grinning ear to ear. Sometimes its the little things but thats a change I love.
I love their role in the last war (even if our home games implied that relationship between Deneith and Ghallanda already) but its the sanctuary aspect that really struck me. It makes perfect sense, and it takes Ghallanda from 'those halflings that own the inns' to major players in the information trade and changes their enclaves into some of the most lurid adventure sites within the major cities.
Yes, I like this as well. I do want to clarify, however, that they are also still those halflings that own the inns, too. A sanctuary enclave is a special place designed for that service, and fortified and garrisoned to be able to enforce its neutrality. Ghallanda Hall in Sharn is a hotbed for intrigue and a haven for scoundrels and mysterious strangers. The Gold Dragon Inn, on the other hand, is just an inn; it doesn't have a garrison, unless a troop of dishwashers count. Getting a Ghallanda license and putting the silver dog on your sign doesn't mean that you suddenly have to pledge yourself to protect fugitives. Essentially, a city may have a lot of different Ghallanda-licensed inns and taverns - but it likely only has a single sanctuary enclave.
The key point here is that PCs could find an enclave almost anywhere, as Chervina the Architect follows her own visions. But there's still lots and lots of traditional inns, and you don't get sanctuary at every place with the seal of the helpful dog.
Conversely, a kalashtar raised in Sharn is unlikely to know Riedran, because he's grown up in a culture that speaks Common.
Not necessarily. A kalashtar who's family has lived in Sharn for a few generations may speak only Common, but if I remember correctly from 3.5, the kalashtar in Sharn tend to stick together in insular communities. If we compare to the real world, immigrants to a new country tend to form communities of fellow immigrants who maintain their language and cultural identity, or at least aspects of it. A kalashtar in Sharn may learn Common for dealing with daily life in the city, but they'll speak Riedrian at home.
How long have the kalashtar been in Korvaire?
With that said, as a DM, I would probably let a PC whose background is that he's from Sarlona take the Riedran language as a background benefit, along with a +1 bonus to one of the associated skills instead of the usual +2.
I think I'm going to take that idea for my game. Thanks.
Or, if you'd rather there be sinister overtones, why do they build in those locations? What happens when the project is complete, invisible lines of energy become visible lines of force, and the pattern of all these Ghallandra enclaves turns out to be one massive rune that spans the continent? Is the chief lady here normal mad, Xoriat mad, Dreaming Dark mad, or Draconic Prophesy mad?
Yes, I like this as well. I do want to clarify, however, that they are also still those halflings that own the inns, too.
I never meant to imply that they weren't. That's what I meant by its not so much a change as it is a change in focus. It adds some real meat to the house, I really enjoy this new facet of the house.
How long have the kalashtar been in Korvaire?
It's covered on page 62 of Races of Eberron.
The kalashtar of Khorvaire come from a variety of backgrounds. Some migrated to Khorvaire before the Inspired arrived on Sarlona, blending quietly into the humans of the Five Nations before Galifar united them. Others have been sent by kalashtar elders over the course of the last few centuries. Some came to study Khorvaire, while others came to ensure that kalashtar society could not be eliminated in a single blow. The kalashtar of Khorvaire have more interaction with other cultures, and don't have to deal with the constant distraction of war. As a result, the kalashtar of Khorvaire are generally more optimistic and innovative than their Adarn counterparts, and they enjoy experimenting with new things...
Certainly, the concept of the insular kalashtar who seek to preserve the old ways and keep the Riedran language active within their community as a part of this makes sense, and I'd do this using a background benefit as described above. But for those who are interesting in interaction with other cultures, innovation, and studying the people of Khorvaire - or those who have been in the region for many centuries - I could see them slowly abandoning the language of the old country for that of the new. Not as an immediate thing, but something that happens over the course of generations, as children see less and less value in speaking the old tongue. The Aundairian kalashtar who doesn't speak Riedran in 4E might well know a handful of Riedran words or expressions that have remained as slang, much as you don't have to know Yiddish to say "Oy vey!"... but full knowledge of the language is no longer automatic.
This was essentially the point of making it a bonus language choice in 3E. Knowledge of Riedran wasn't automatic for Kalashtar, but it was one of the more common languages for them to pick up. If you keep it as a possible background benefit, then you keep that intact. It's possible for a Kalashtar of Khorvaire to speak Riedran, if he has close ties to Adar or has preserved the old traditions... but if he's got a different background, he may have let it slip away.
You, my friend, inadvertently gave me an idea I just fell in love with.
I skimmed over your post, and saw "Gatekeepers" and "remained" and "Xoriat" and thought "Hmm... wouldn't it be interesting if, during the Xoriat invasion, a few Gatekeepers went to Xoriat to fight the battle there... and they were still there, somehow? A little bubble of 'anti-insanity' maybe, or maybe they're all insane... or maybe they formed a rebellion (somehow) of aberrant druids...
Nothing to do with what you said but it's a very interesting thought =P
That just invoked the ending of Carpenter's Prince of Darkness to me.