Class+Race+Dragon Mark+Theme - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Class+Race+Dragon Mark+Theme

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Houndstooth
May 16, 2011 21:30:14 So Im starting a new game in a couple months, and am not sure (as Ive never played Eberron) how powerful DragonMarks are in play.
More over, I have players who want both Themes and Dragon Marks, and player who want neither... will the power balace be to uneven?
#2
Madfox11
May 17, 2011 7:01:58 3rd or 4th edition? Currently we have two PCs in the group of our 4E campaign, and their marks while good, are not overbearing. We stick to the racial requirements though, meaning their effects can be a bit downplayed. The CharOps love with the Mark of Storm for example does not come into play, simply because we have no sorcerer, let alone a Lyrandor member.

In regards to themes, that I would worry about a bit. I haven't seem them into play though in groups where only a limited number of players took them, so I cannot comment on what impact it would have on the game.
#3
Houndstooth
May 17, 2011 14:19:21 4e, did wizards ever release themes for 3e?
The dragon mark on its own Im fine with, its when a dragon mark and theme character is compaired to one with neither.
#4
MrCelsius
May 18, 2011 15:30:49
4e, did wizards ever release themes for 3e?
The dragon mark on its own Im fine with, its when a dragon mark and theme character is compaired to one with neither.

Fortunately dragonmarks aren't freebies like themes, they're feats. While they're fun, flavorful, and nuanced, they aren't notably out of balance with other feats. One character with any given dragonmark will be off the same general power level as another character who spent that feat on any given other feat. All you really need to evaluate is the balance of one character with a theme versus the balance of another character without a theme.

On that front I'd say that while themes range from 'fun perk' to 'quite useful', the amount of additional potency which they grant on average is still definitely within the margin of error for 4e's power level. Assuming same degrees of optimization, whether a character is a Ranger or a Warlock makes something approaching an order of magnitude greater difference in power level than whether or not the character has a theme, and people have been playing those classes in the same party for years now without the game imploding.

Long story short, I think they'll be fine. The only thing you need to worry about is if the player declining the theme is a petulant whiner. I've known the sort of player who'd pass up a mechanical benefit in an absurd claim to some manner of moral high ground and then spend the rest of the campaign bitching (or, worse, seething) every time someone else actually uses that mechanical benefit. If that's the case, well, themes still aren't your problem; you'll have to make another post in the DM board asking for help with the player. Good luck with it.
#5
Madfox11
May 19, 2011 9:01:45 If you have an optimizer some of the dragon mark feats are actually on the high end of good. The Mark of Storm regularly features on CharOps in regards to storm sorcerers and the like. Most are fine as a feat, if not a bit weak. For example, my eladrin fighter from House Phiarlann gains absolutely nothing from a Mark of Shadow. I am not all that interested in a mark from a RP perspective (he is not from the Karnath spire), so it is no problem, but you might want to allow PCs to have a mark without any direct benefit except using certain items for free.

The same is also true for themes. For example, the scholar theme combined with the Traveler's Insight feat (the feat grants +1 feat bonus to Insight per language spoken) and utility powers that allow Insight to be used instead of other skills create an insanely potent skill check. It is one of those combinations that people will note.

Why are some players opposed to using themes? If I wanted to use them, I would offer to change the fluff for those PCs where the fluff does not match or to just treat them as bonus mechanics with no fluff attached. It would be a shame for the story since themes can be a great tool in that regards, but it would remove any worry about inbalance between the two. If fear for powercreep is the worry, than it is time for another conversation, since your players have different expectations and it is best to make sure you know what your players want ;)
#6
Houndstooth
May 22, 2011 1:42:13 lol I supose I should mention that I do not mean to say unbalanced only in combat. The Marks also give several rituals, which, when use proporly can be not only useful and powerful, very cool and exciting. Themes even when giving no mechanic benifits can be ver useful.
For expample, a themed and marked character waltses into an inn, mentions hes a hospitaliser, is greated and given free room and meals for his compainion then flashes his dragon mark and is asked to perform a ritual or to or advise on relations with his house, all the while the other character sits to the side feeling like a little brother.
What options do I have to balance this out? I was thinking divine boons and martial training, but they are usually all mechanical, and do not balance the flavor at all, which is less mesurable, but its a role playing game, so its still very important.

Any suggestions?
#7
SpacyRicochet
May 23, 2011 9:27:29 I do/am planning to do the following in my own Eberron campaign:

Players can take Dragonmarks with the feat, if they're from the correct race. So far every character is from the correct House as well, so no problems there. And because Dragonmarks are feats, there isn't a large power creep. (I am not completely opposed to Marked characters not fulfilling the racial requirements or come from the correct House, but their lives will become very, very interesting.)

As for Themes, I plan on only allowing them for Essentials style classes. That will offset the lack of variety that those have. For the normal style classes, I'm concerned about the power creep that is inherent in the themes, so I won't allow them for those. My players with DM experience agree with me on this so far.

As far as the fluff and flavor is concerned, unless the characters were created in a vacuum, they will have a background, even those that do not want marks or themes. It won't be too hard to come up with interesting flavor benefits at level 1, 5 and 10 based on the background for those characters. We can help out if you want.
#8
Jimmifett
May 24, 2011 15:09:53 I'm having my players pick a generic or eberron specific background, and 1 theme from Dr399 or a generic theme from DS not tied specifically to DS.

I then have them choose religion and anser 2 question about thier character in addition to whatever backstory they want to provide:

Who did you work for during the Last War, and what role did you fill.

The who is obvious, one of the nations, dragonmarked houses, power groups, or other.
The roles i gave examples such as:

soldier
spy
scout
scion
courier
chronicler
deserter
refugee
inquisitor
bounty hunter
relic hunter
or other

This helps both myself and them get into the feel of thier character. Each example had a little blurb, such as:

Refugee
Your fields raised, your barns burned, your livestock slaughtered for food,
you've fled with what little possessions you can carry. Constantly turned away
by other settlements that can't handle an extra mouth to feed, you try to stay
out of the way of the military, to little avail.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Houndstooth May 16, 2011 21:30:14	So Im starting a new game in a couple months, and am not sure (as Ive never played Eberron) how powerful DragonMarks are in play. More over, I have players who want both Themes and Dragon Marks, and player who want neither... will the power balace be to uneven?
#2 Madfox11 May 17, 2011 7:01:58	3rd or 4th edition? Currently we have two PCs in the group of our 4E campaign, and their marks while good, are not overbearing. We stick to the racial requirements though, meaning their effects can be a bit downplayed. The CharOps love with the Mark of Storm for example does not come into play, simply because we have no sorcerer, let alone a Lyrandor member. In regards to themes, that I would worry about a bit. I haven't seem them into play though in groups where only a limited number of players took them, so I cannot comment on what impact it would have on the game.
#3 Houndstooth May 17, 2011 14:19:21	4e, did wizards ever release themes for 3e? The dragon mark on its own Im fine with, its when a dragon mark and theme character is compaired to one with neither.
#4 MrCelsius May 18, 2011 15:30:49	4e, did wizards ever release themes for 3e? The dragon mark on its own Im fine with, its when a dragon mark and theme character is compaired to one with neither. Fortunately dragonmarks aren't freebies like themes, they're feats. While they're fun, flavorful, and nuanced, they aren't notably out of balance with other feats. One character with any given dragonmark will be off the same general power level as another character who spent that feat on any given other feat. All you really need to evaluate is the balance of one character with a theme versus the balance of another character without a theme. On that front I'd say that while themes range from 'fun perk' to 'quite useful', the amount of additional potency which they grant on average is still definitely within the margin of error for 4e's power level. Assuming same degrees of optimization, whether a character is a Ranger or a Warlock makes something approaching an order of magnitude greater difference in power level than whether or not the character has a theme, and people have been playing those classes in the same party for years now without the game imploding. Long story short, I think they'll be fine. The only thing you need to worry about is if the player declining the theme is a petulant whiner. I've known the sort of player who'd pass up a mechanical benefit in an absurd claim to some manner of moral high ground and then spend the rest of the campaign bitching (or, worse, seething) every time someone else actually uses that mechanical benefit. If that's the case, well, themes still aren't your problem; you'll have to make another post in the DM board asking for help with the player. Good luck with it.
#5 Madfox11 May 19, 2011 9:01:45	If you have an optimizer some of the dragon mark feats are actually on the high end of good. The Mark of Storm regularly features on CharOps in regards to storm sorcerers and the like. Most are fine as a feat, if not a bit weak. For example, my eladrin fighter from House Phiarlann gains absolutely nothing from a Mark of Shadow. I am not all that interested in a mark from a RP perspective (he is not from the Karnath spire), so it is no problem, but you might want to allow PCs to have a mark without any direct benefit except using certain items for free. The same is also true for themes. For example, the scholar theme combined with the Traveler's Insight feat (the feat grants +1 feat bonus to Insight per language spoken) and utility powers that allow Insight to be used instead of other skills create an insanely potent skill check. It is one of those combinations that people will note. Why are some players opposed to using themes? If I wanted to use them, I would offer to change the fluff for those PCs where the fluff does not match or to just treat them as bonus mechanics with no fluff attached. It would be a shame for the story since themes can be a great tool in that regards, but it would remove any worry about inbalance between the two. If fear for powercreep is the worry, than it is time for another conversation, since your players have different expectations and it is best to make sure you know what your players want ;)
#6 Houndstooth May 22, 2011 1:42:13	lol I supose I should mention that I do not mean to say unbalanced only in combat. The Marks also give several rituals, which, when use proporly can be not only useful and powerful, very cool and exciting. Themes even when giving no mechanic benifits can be ver useful. For expample, a themed and marked character waltses into an inn, mentions hes a hospitaliser, is greated and given free room and meals for his compainion then flashes his dragon mark and is asked to perform a ritual or to or advise on relations with his house, all the while the other character sits to the side feeling like a little brother. What options do I have to balance this out? I was thinking divine boons and martial training, but they are usually all mechanical, and do not balance the flavor at all, which is less mesurable, but its a role playing game, so its still very important. Any suggestions?
#7 SpacyRicochet May 23, 2011 9:27:29	I do/am planning to do the following in my own Eberron campaign: Players can take Dragonmarks with the feat, if they're from the correct race. So far every character is from the correct House as well, so no problems there. And because Dragonmarks are feats, there isn't a large power creep. (I am not completely opposed to Marked characters not fulfilling the racial requirements or come from the correct House, but their lives will become very, very interesting.) As for Themes, I plan on only allowing them for Essentials style classes. That will offset the lack of variety that those have. For the normal style classes, I'm concerned about the power creep that is inherent in the themes, so I won't allow them for those. My players with DM experience agree with me on this so far. As far as the fluff and flavor is concerned, unless the characters were created in a vacuum, they will have a background, even those that do not want marks or themes. It won't be too hard to come up with interesting flavor benefits at level 1, 5 and 10 based on the background for those characters. We can help out if you want.
#8 Jimmifett May 24, 2011 15:09:53	I'm having my players pick a generic or eberron specific background, and 1 theme from Dr399 or a generic theme from DS not tied specifically to DS. I then have them choose religion and anser 2 question about thier character in addition to whatever backstory they want to provide: Who did you work for during the Last War, and what role did you fill. The who is obvious, one of the nations, dragonmarked houses, power groups, or other. The roles i gave examples such as: soldier spy scout scion courier chronicler deserter refugee inquisitor bounty hunter relic hunter or other This helps both myself and them get into the feel of thier character. Each example had a little blurb, such as: Refugee Your fields raised, your barns burned, your livestock slaughtered for food, you've fled with what little possessions you can carry. Constantly turned away by other settlements that can't handle an extra mouth to feed, you try to stay out of the way of the military, to little avail.