Page 22 also says this of House Phiarlan "This house is dominated by elves and eladrin".
So, what gives? I thought we weren't going for huge retcons. The Mark of Shadow is now a mixed-race mark like the Mark of Finding? Perfectly acceptable on Elves and Eladrin? Or do Eladrin just serve an inordinantly prominent position in the House while being un-marked?
Either way it seems really weird and retconn-y. It also seems to imply (through the bit about the feyspire) that Elves and Eladrin can interbreed.
Can you say CAN O' WORMS?
The book seems to imply that the Eladrin only have the Mark due to a clan of Phiarlan elves intermingling with them in the feyspire.
So, I know the text in the Eladrin entry says that Eladrin in Taer Syraen have the mark, but again, this directly contradicts what is said elsewhere in the book and in the ECG. So as Dm it's up to you to pick which takes precedence. Personally, I'd give precedence to the table on page 21 and the history of the houses in the ECG... which have NOT suddenly changed to make them mixed-race houses.
So, I know the text in the Eladrin entry says that Eladrin in Taer Syraen have the mark, but again, this directly contradicts what is said elsewhere in the book and in the ECG. So as Dm it's up to you to pick which takes precedence. Personally, I'd give precedence to the table on page 21 and the history of the houses in the ECG... which have NOT suddenly changed to make them mixed-race houses.
Sayeth the mighty Hellcow.
I'd just ignore it. Their is no reason why Eladrin should have the Mark of Shadow. Other wise this could happen:
So we've got Eladrin with the Mark of Death running around in Thelanis?
"Behold! We are the Elves of the Feywild! And here we have the Mark of Death! We well spread death and shadow through the Feywild in an act of are joy for having these gifts! *Eladrin dance in a circle
*"I mean really, don't Death and Shadow come from the Shadowfell?
So I will just pretend that it's not in there.
If that doesn't satisfy you, feel free to bar the one eladrin player in your home game from taking that feat just to **** them off and satisfy your own whims. It still puzzles me why people get so worked up about these things.
This is true of any geeky fandom.
Perhaps the Elves of Phiarlan started the rumour for some reason ("That's right folks, we've got sneaky teleporting assassins now") or it's a lurid misconception that the elves and eladrin are at it like rabbits in there and making a new line of half-breeds. (Even the Karrns like a little sexual intrigue in their gossip.)
I just thought it was weird that the first notion of Elves being able to intermingle with Eladrin was in a section also describing a breach of cannon.
That's not something I'm necessarily against, as long as the "house eladrin" being dragonmarked is unheard of.
Why? They're all 'elves.'
Like how there are Orcs as part of House Tharashk, just incapable of carrying the Mark of Finding.
Because the mark manifests in human blood, so it can get a foothold on humans and half-orcs but not full orcs, which are genetically similar enough to breed but different enough to be considered a different species (yes, I know that technically the definition of a species is that it has limited breeding options outside of itself, but we'll just ignore that, shall we?). Whereas elves and eladrin are specifically mentioned as being of the same stock.
I just thought it was weird that the first notion of Elves being able to intermingle with Eladrin was in a section also describing a breach of canon.
Eladrin being a side-species of elf instead of a variety of celestial is a breach of canon by itself. Is anyone actually worried about that?
In my world, at least as of now, Eladrin NPCs won't manifest marks...but PC's could.
Now, I imagine the Giants of Xen'drik to have enslaved eladrins in the beginning. Then, as centuries passed with the eladrins cut off from the Feywild/Thelanis, they became naturalized to elves and experimented into drow. But, as someone mentioned above, they all share the same genes.
I think eladrins would make excellent Phiarlan/Thuranni scions. Maybe they had something to do with the split?
Wasn't there info in 3.5 (I think the PGtE) that said that sub-species of elves (and other races) don't maifest dragonmarks?
Because subraces wouldn't be part of the dragonmarked families. These hypothetical Phiarlan eladrin would be. I don't see that as being in any way counter to canon, as if that really mattered.
Just be glad drow were not included then, because imagine THAT "can o'worms" being opened for dragonmarked houses, cause' technically speaking, elves, drow and eladrin are all the same race.
If someone came to me in 3e with a backstory of having one Phiarlan parent and one Sulatar parent and wanted to play a drow-statted character with the Mark of Shadow, I wouldn't have said no (in fact, I'd probably have found a way to center a large part of the campaign on said character).
If someone came to me in 3e with a backstory of having one Phiarlan parent and one Sulatar parent and wanted to play a drow-statted character with the Mark of Shadow, I wouldn't have said no (in fact, I'd probably have found a way to center a large part of the campaign on said character).
I'm not against drow, don't get me wrong. I love 'em! (esp. the Eberron drow)
I was speaking against Avon's reasoning for eladrins.
Wasn't there info in 3.5 (I think the PGtE) that said that sub-species of elves (and other races) don't maifest dragonmarks?
In my world, at least as of now, Eladrin NPCs won't manifest marks...but PC's could.
Well if you want to get technical if Elves were infact Eladrin that were captured by giants and natualized into elves, then elves would actualy be a sub-species of Eladrin, not vice versa. So infact it would kind of make sence that Eladrin, Elves, and Drow could all have dragon marks becasue each could be blood conected to the house.
I think there are a lot of options to take the canon established in the EPG and turn it totally Eberron.
...except the Deva bit. Ugh. I basically say "Sure, they could have those Marks. But none have, yet." which is probably my only deviation from 4e rulebook canon. Because Devas running around with Marks, even "rare" ones, is too much for me.
To put it another way: consider the example of FR, in which while MOST Sun/Moon Elves are eladrin and MOST Wood/Wild Elves are elves, but in which it is entirely possible to have elves that consider themselves Moon Elves (and are considered such by their eladrin-statted kin) and eladrin that consider themselves Wild Elves (likewise). You end up with a tripartite distinction: elves, 'elves,' and 'you've got to be kidding me, these things are elves??? they freakin' scare the living daylights out of me!' eladrin. Sort of like the difference between native outsiders and true outsiders in 3e, only without the mechanical distinctions. So, really, is there anything wrong with applying the same logic here?
Not sure what you mean here.
Wood Elf and Wild Elf are feats in 4e that can only be taken by Elves, and Moon Elf and Sun Elf are feats in 4e that can only be taken by Eladrin.
Yes I know these were actual subraces in 3e. But the split is distinct.
Also, are we going to let awakened monkeys have human-family dragonmarks?
Elves evolved from Eladrin in the material plane. They are a new race.
Not sure what you mean here.
I mean that if you never take and don't care about the mechanical distinctions provided by the feats you mention, you could have an entire party of mixed elves and eladrin who all come from Myth Drannor and are all siblings. So why do you seem to think that the same can't or shouldn't apply to Phiarlan?
Also, your last point is kind of erroneous. We're not talking the difference between chimpanzees and humans here, we're talking the difference between Chinese and Cherokee.
This is true of any geeky fandom.
But it doesn't have to be. We can be better than this, people.
1. Since the Age of Giants, the seven feyspires have moved between Eberron and Thelanis when the planes have been coterminous.
2. During the Age of Giants, a titan lord sacked the Feyspire in Xen'drik. Its people were enslaved. Through the course of tens of thousands of years of slavery and magical experimentation, these captive Eladrin lost that fundamental connection to the Feywild that lets them do things like teleport (a troublesome trait in a slave). This produced the elves, and later, the drow (a further modification of the elf). So yes, technically, elves are a subspecies of eladrin.
3. Here's the key piece the EPG seems to have missed: following the loss of their city most of the Feyspires retreated from Eberron, putting up powerful cloaking magic to hide their cities from mortal eyes during their time in Eberron. There are exceptions; the Twilight Demesne has always trafficked with the Greensingers, and Pylas Pyrial in Zilargo has always had a decent relationship with the gnomes of the land. But Taer Syraen in particular has always been a city in hiding. It was a place of legend, a story like Brigadoon - once in a hundred years, a knight wandering through the woods would disappear, only to return with a fantastic tale of a magical city that he could never find again.
4. When the Mourning claimed Cyre, all of the feyspires lost their defensive magics. Suddenly Taer Syraen was revealed, much to the surprise of the Karrns.
So the key point is that the Eladrin are relative newcomers to Eberron. Throughout history, some have left their cities, especially in Zilargo and the Eldeen; but in small enough numbers that without a good Arcana check people would simply think they were elves. Now they are in a precarious situation. The Karrn warlords aren't at all pleased to have a city of arrogant fey in their borders, and in Darguun the feyspire is actively beseiged by the Ghaal'dar. In my view, the EPG entry doesn't suggest that this is new and a source of considerable tension - that as an eladrin, your choice of home feyspire could make a significant difference in your motivations; if you're from Taer Syraen, you may want to serve as an intermediary between your people and the angry Karrns (of course, if you have no interest in this whatsoever, you could always be the descendant of an early wanderer).
But following the principle of the new races not having a huge impact on the old story, the point is that while the Eladrin have always been here, it is only since the Mourning that they have been particularly noticeable.
I don't have a problem with a Phiarlan force having discovered Taer Syraen long ago and worked to build up a force there, but bear in mind that in the past, Taer Syraen was only ON Eberron for a few years every century, and even then it was hidden. This would have been a very distant branch only able to make infrequent contact with the house. I think an eladrin developing the Mark of Shadow could be a very interesting plotline, but there's TONS of things you could do with it. As a feyspire in a precarious situation, the feyspire could try to use the character as a bridge to secure support from the house... and the rival house (Phiarlan/Thuranni) could target the PC for assassination. Alternately, the Taer Syraen shadowmarked elves could actually be the Bloody Shadows, the survivors of the line wiped out in the Shadow Schism - they were hidden from the purge in Taer Syraen, and now they want vengeance on both houses. Will the eladrin PC join them in this quest or try to find his own path?
In any case, "common dragonmarked eladrin" is a flawed sentence because the eladrin aren't common period. But I do feel that the table on page 21 is the important thing: the mark of shadow is an elf mark, not elf and eladrin. Beyond that, I hope to write more about the eladrin and the feyspires in the future, because I think there's a strong story there with a lot of good PC hooks depending what feyspire you come from, if any (and there is more that's revealed in the ECG).
I like the idea that this is just one tiny DM-only secret accidentally revealed in the EPG, rather than something that players would actually know.
If dragonmarked eladrin exist in Taer Syraen, I certainly wouldn't expect it to be common knowledge; I think it unlikely that the average Brelish PC would even have heard of Taer Syraen, let alone of dragonmarked eladrin within it. I personally will stick with any such eladrin as being a first-time remarkable and dangerous PC thing, but I can see the basis for doing otherwise. In any case, yes, I think this is a slip of the general PC-knowledge approach in the EPG.
They probably wanted the higher-likelihood of Eladrin players to know exactly how the race fits into Eberron, feyspires and all.
Still, they messed things up by A) Not specifically noting that the feyspires were invisible for thousands of years! (That would have helped!) and B) Deciding that, within one feyspire, dragonmarked eladrin existed as a "clan", i.e. in significant numbers)
Still, they messed things up by...Deciding that, within one feyspire, dragonmarked eladrin existed as a "clan", i.e. in significant numbers)
I'm still not understanding why you view this as having 'messed up.' I'm having great difficulty in perceiving it as a retcon at all, let alone a substantial one, and I find myself totally unable to wrap my head around the idea that this little bit of lore (which I think adds to rather than subtracts from the awesomeness of the setting) is worth this much fuss.
Now, if it were tieflings suddenly having always been the bearers of the Mark of Finding instead of humans and half-orcs, that I could understand as being a problem... but we're talking here about two variations on the theme of 'elf,' both of which represent a facet of what the former edition ascribed to elves as a whole (minus the teleportation, obviously, but elves have always supposed to be magic in some ways).
I'm still not understanding why you view this as having 'messed up.'
Because the Mark of Shadow is an elf mark, not an eladrin mark. No matter that you percieve them to be "basically the same race" they are not. They are as far apart as elves are from drow. Would you have large numbers of drow in Xen'drik with the Mark of Death? Able to survive the purge of House Vol because they weren't around for it? If you wanted to do so in your game that is completely fine and actually a cool idea. However doing so for the established shared assumptions of the world itself and all future material going forward is a gross misuse of the setting.
The only dragonmark in the setting that has ever appeared on two races (in great numbers) is the Mark of Finding.
It is a "mess up" because turning the Mark of Shadow into a mixed-race mark is rewritting the history of the setting when they said they weren't going to.
Honestly I fail to see how you don't understand it's a mess up. Keith Baker himself has called it a mistake, and who knows the setting better than him? And before you go off on how he's just a freelancer, he is one of the authors of the Eberron Campaign Guide coming out next month, and I ask you which is the more viable source for setting info? A player's guide or the campaign guide? The Campaign Guide's PURPOSE is to establish the world, and if one of the authors of the world says it's a mistake? Guess what, it's a mistake.
I doubt you are convinced, though.
I doubt you are convinced, though.
Not really. The argument against doesn't sound like it has much more of a basis than any number of posts I remember from Outpost Gallifrey about how new Doctor Who was changing fundamental aspects of the original show's continuity when, really, all it was doing was adding new stuff. Can you provide me with some definite negative impact that it has on the setting, apart from "I just don't like it"? If there were some concrete ramifications I could get to grips with, I might understand your position better.
Also, it would be highly difficult to convince me that eladrin and elves don't have enough in common to be counted as the same species (albeit different 'races'). It is a known phenomenon for domesticated species to produce throwbacks to the parent stock, the offspring of which may continue to exhibit traits of either the domesticated breed or the original template. If there is any breeding-in of the original bloodline to the domesticated genome, the likelihood of such a throwback increases. Therefore, by the elven history as now established, there is no reason why a character who is genetically closer to eladrin than elf and who belonged to House Phiarlan could not bear the Mark of Shadow - they'd still be part of the Phiarlan bloodline and they'd still be considered an elf for everything except the purposes of game mechanics.
As for Keith Baker's opinions, I respect them, but I don't always necessarily agree with them - and I know that his co-authors don't always agree with them either, so you (and he, I hope) must forgive me if I don't take everything he says about Eberron as gospel, any more than I would treat Ed Greenwood's comments about the Forgotten Realms. He isn't the project lead for the product line, so ultimately what is and is not canon is not up to him.
If eladrin, elves, and drow are all just one big speices, you need to account for the Mark of Death in all of them.
You're stance is "eladrin are really just elves" when that's just not true. This is the *exact* same thing as saying "House Lyrandar is dominated by humans and half-elves." It's just as wrong, per the setting conciets. (Incidentally, the humans+half-breed connection is much much more viable for sharing dragonmarks than Eldarin+Elf. Elves are hundreds and hundreds of generations removed from Eldarin PLUS extensive genetic and arcane experimentation by Giants.)
EDIT: Also, you don't seem to be reading my entire posts. I never said "I don't like it" just "this is a mistake". Actually I said quite the opposite, that its would make a compelling story for a campaign. However, regardless of how "cool" it is, it does fly in the face of established setting lore.
I have no problem with accepted the existence of Shadowmarked Eladrin in Taer Syraen...and just them(by the time of that event, the Mark of Death had been gone for a long time after all). And somehow I suspect that, for a person to bear the mark of shadow, he/she should have been born on Eberron. Same as Sarlona, those born on Thelanis bear no marks.
All well and good for home games, but the non-chalant existance of Eladrin with dragonmarks, by itself, with no other qualifiers, opens the can of worms that is the Mark of Death.
All well and good for home games, but the non-chalant existance of Eladrin with dragonmarks, by itself, with no other qualifiers, opens the can of worms that is the Mark of Death.
I know, I know...it depends on when the first Eladrin dragonmarked appeared. As I said, I interpret it as an event who occured after the purge/slaughter of the line of Vol-when the mark of Shadow expands from Aerenal to Khorvaire. Would Vol try and use Eladrin to recreate the mark now? That's another story.
The afformentioned Death marked drow and eladrin that were never purged, for one. If eladrin, elves, and drow are all just one big speices, you need to account for the Mark of Death in all of them.
No you wouldn't. Dragonmarks mostly (with few notable exceptions) are tied to family lines. The Vol family, unless otherwise stated, did not contain drow (and until more is said about them, we have no idea if they contained any substantial population of eladrin - but judging by Keith's opinions on the matter, we can assume not).
Your stance is "eladrin are really just elves" when that's just not true.
My stance is that 'eladrin and elves in 4e collectively occupy the niche that in 3e was occupied only by elves because eladrin were something completely different and unrelated.' Forgotten Realms deals with the situation by saying that eladrin and elves have 'gone native' to different degrees. Prior to the EPG I had assumed that the same logic applied to Eberron - after reading it, I amended that assumption to elves and 'native' eladrin having less or more of their ancient heritage available to them.
I never said "I don't like it" just "this is a mistake". Actually I said quite the opposite, that its would make a compelling story for a campaign. However, regardless of how "cool" it is, it does fly in the face of established setting lore.
My apologies, then. You sound so heated about it, and generally when people convey that impression it means they don't like it.
Anyway, having eladrin as what they are in 4e as opposed to what they were in 3e is a change by itself, and my hypothesis is merely a logical extension of what they did to accomodate that change. Therefore, it hardly 'flies in the face' of established lore - more sidles up to it and sneaks in when the canon-keepers aren't looking.
Eladrin are from Thelanis, and always have been (even in 3.5 when they were chaotic good outsiders). They have not been subsumed into elven culture or identity.
The high-magic elves of Eberron, the Aerenal, are still elves, not eladrin. Regardless of how the core setting casted them, Eberron actually keeps them closer to their Outsider roots. In Eberron, Eladrin are otherworldly beings from Thelanis, just like they always have been.
How Forgotten Realms does it has no bearing whatsoever on the Eberron campaign setting. Elves did not come about from Eladrin who stayed in the natural world to long, they were engineered, created by Giants, as were drow from them. They are not a natural outgrowth of the same species like they are in FR, they are altered and different.
Also, sure, dragonmarks come from familes. House Vol was an elven family on Aerenal, but they descended from elven slaves in Xen'drik, and Drow had to come from somewhere (specifically, elven slaves in Xen'drik). The bloodline of House Vol could indeed run through drow, as could that of House Phiarlain. Going back even further, elven slaves in Xen'drik had to come from somewhere (specifically, eladrin in a feyspire). So both House Phiarlain and House Vol can trace their bloodlines ultimately to one Eladrin city, a city that world-falled back and forth from the Thelanis and spent most its time there. It would be somewhat unreasonable to assume that any Eladrin bloodlines in that city were wholely contained within. They most likely traveled and traded with the other feyspires and non-worldfalling establishments.
So we have elven bloodlines extending all the way back to Eladrin in Thelanis. So where's our Mark of Death eladrin?
I mean, eladrin are just the same thing as elves, right? So the bloodline is there, regardless of the genetic and magical experimentation that corrupted them for untold generations, right?
EDIT: Also, my tone being heated probably is due to my fustration with someone staunchly defending an obvious error. I'm actually not a "cannon-cripple". I often comment helpfully on other posters' threads about their off-beat ideas, like female-form warforged capable of reproduction. If it makes for a good story, regardless of cannon, I'm all for it.
But taking one of the key facets of Eberron, the Dragonmarked Houses, and mucking them up with retcons is another thing completely. I was fine with out-of-race marks being PC only. That makes a good story. However redefining what is out-of-race for a mark does not strike me as something we were supposed to expect. In Keith's own words, he believes it was an unintentional error. This is an edit to the setting itself, not merely an inclusion of a potential story hook. They changed something, something BIG, and they said they weren't going to.
Also, sure, dragonmarks come from familes. House Vol was an elven family on Aerenal, but they descended from elven slaves in Xen'drik, and Drow had to come from somewhere (specifically, elven slaves in Xen'drik). The bloodline of House Vol could indeed run through drow, as could that of House Phiarlain. Going back even further, elven slaves in Xen'drik had to come from somewhere (specifically, eladrin in a feyspire). So both House Phiarlain and House Vol can trace their bloodlines ultimately to one Eladrin city, a city that world-falled back and forth from the Thelanis and spent most its time there. It would be somewhat unreasonable to assume that any Eladrin bloodlines in that city were wholely contained within. They most likely traveled and traded with the other feyspires and non-worldfalling establishments.
So we have elven bloodlines extending all the way back to Eladrin in Thelanis. So where's our Mark of Death eladrin?
Good question. Here's a thought.Where our Marked of Death drow are-nonexistent. They might share a distant common ancestry, but they are not Vol.
Furthermore, I still believe that geography is a key factor here-as humans didn't bear any marks before they migrated to Khorvaire and elves bore no marks in Xen'drik, Eladrin bore no mark in Thelanis. They're the outsider, as you have described. They lack the Eberron connection. I do not recall any feyspire in Aerenal-the rare Eladrin who might appear there means nothing. So why marks now? Because the mark came to them. The vast majority of Phiarlan migrates to Khorvaire, which now becomes the center of the mark of Shadow. The Prophecy moves in mysterious ways-in some ways, it expanded its shadowy mark on the (very) distant kin of the elves. Perhaps the Prophecy did so in anticipation of a stronger presence of Eladrin to Eberron's fate and of the Mourning as well. The feyspires were fated to disconnect from Thelanis, the Eladrin to remain in Eberron.
Just a theory, I know. Dismantle it at will
.Good question. Here's a thought.Where our Marked of Death drow are-nonexistent. They might share a distant common ancestry, but they are not Vol.
Furthermore, I still believe that geography is a key factor here-as humans didn't bear any marks before they migrated to Khorvaire and elves bore no marks in Xen'drik, Eladrin bore no mark in Thelanis. They're the outsider, as you have described. They lack the Eberron connection. I do not recall any feyspire in Aerenal-the rare Eladrin who might appear there means nothing. So why marks now? Because the mark came to them. The vast majority of Phiarlan migrates to Khorvaire, which now becomes the center of the mark of Shadow. The Prophecy moves in mysterious ways-in some ways, it expanded its shadowy mark on the (very) distant kin of the elves. Perhaps the Prophecy did so in anticipation of a stronger presence of Eladrin to Eberron's fate and of the Mourning as well. The feyspires were fated to disconnect from Thelanis, the Eladrin to remain in Eberron.
Just a theory, I know. Dismantle it at will
It's a good theory, and it does make sense given what we have.
However, it's still has no place in standard Eberron cannon. It's good for what it is, a single DM's vision of how the prophecy works.
It's a good theory, and it does make sense given what we have.
However, it's still has no place in standard Eberron cannon. It's good for what it is, a single DM's vision of how the prophecy works.
Thaks-as it should be! I don't know if I will keep it though-after all, it seems that there was a mess up. I'm just trying to see of it could be if use.
.BTW, am I the only one who believes that Kaius should proceed and declare war on Taer Syraen? Such a moves counters a real (frozen) threat, gives the ambitious warlords a way to glory and consolidates his position(see? Our king is no coward. He's just wise in picking his enemies). Getting rid of those arrogant !@#$% from Karrnath is a worthy goal, don't you think?
This falls right in with the Eberron line of thinking. This works great. I can see it now as the Karnnathi warlords rally behind their king to wage war against the Eladrin who have invaded their sovereignty.
I mean, eladrin are just the same thing as elves, right? So the bloodline is there, regardless of the genetic and magical experimentation that corrupted them for untold generations, right?
Dogs have been bred for millennia. An Alsatian looks almost nothing like a Shih Tzu. They're still the same species, and you can still breed them to each other (although it would probably be pretty uncomfortable for both) and get offspring that exhibit the traits of either.
EDIT: Also, my tone being heated probably is due to my fustration with someone staunchly defending an obvious error.
It's in the book and it fires my imagination. I accept what's written, as it does not affect my perception of the setting's fundamental continuity and metaphysics at all. Until such time as they post a revision to the book that edits the bits you're having issues with, you can speculate that it's an error all you like... but not even Keith can say so definitively.
They changed something, something BIG, and they said they weren't going to.
It's hardly 'big.' It's at most a few dozen representatives of one family. You're making an eldritch machine out of a spanner.
Also, I notice that you skipped right over me pointing out that Eberron Eladrin are more like 3.5 Eladrin than Core 4e Eladrin. Their place in the setting hasn't changed, they were, and are, otherwordly beings from another plane of existance. The fact that they're more PC-viable has no bearing on their place in the story.
Also, while dogs of many different breeds exist, I don't think we ever used genetic experimentation (just selective breeding). We never futzed with their DNA or used super-science to make them any more or less than what was already in their genes.
The Giants removed the ability to teleport from Eladrin, they severed a fundamental part of them from their home. That goes a bit beyond eugenics.
It's a good theory, and it does make sense given what we have.
However, it's still has no place in standard Eberron canon. It's good for what it is, a single DM's vision of how the prophecy works.
I wouldn't say it has "no" place in Eberron canon. I believe it always has been canon that Dragonmarks form only on creatures of Khorvaire and Aerenal (and not all of them, of course).
That's why we never have to worry about Drow with dragonmarks. No matter their eladrin sires, they have not been exposed to whatever ambient factor present in Khorvaire and Aerenal that combines with heredity to produce dragonmarks.
I believe that's the point that Ellorin's been trying to make. It was a point I wished to clarify early into page one; but, as a late-comer to the thread, I just now got the chance to weigh-in.
The only way Eladrin will ever manifest marks, assuming no retcon of the above principle, is interbreeding with their distant kin, the elves. I, too, would prefer this be uncommon, but I don't mind it in very, very small numbers. It doesn't surpise me at all that this seems to be the result of a mistaken understanding by one of the EPG authors.
I really wish they'd have let Keith and James proofread the book before publishing. They could've saved us from things like warforged swapping limbs.
And here we have "a few dozen" such NPCs stealing PC thunder.
Out-of-race marks are an issue because the person bearing them (usually) has no connection to the dragonmark family, and thus no place in the economic and social structure of that family. This branch of Phiarlan... well, they're Phiarlan. They, their parents, their siblings, and their cousins think of them as Phiarlan. And the average person can't tell the difference between an elf and an eladrin (for instance, in The Dragon Forge Aunn stumbles into Thelanis by accident and doesn't realize he's not talking to elves until after he leaves), so there's no sense of 'hey, whut?' associated with them in the world.
Also, I notice that you skipped right over me pointing out that Eberron Eladrin are more like 3.5 Eladrin than Core 4e Eladrin.
That's because I don't think it's relevant. They used to not be a demographic worthy of consideration: now they are. That's a change, and a somewhat bigger one than this molehill.
Also, while dogs of many different breeds exist, I don't think we ever used genetic experimentation (just selective breeding). We never futzed with their DNA or used super-science to make them any more or less than what was already in their genes.
Selective breeding is genetic experimentation - the only difference is that it takes a long time as opposed to a short time. And it takes an awful lot of futzing with something's DNA to make it a distinct (and thus incompatible) species as opposed to just a different breed or race.
That said, I'll reiterate the opinion that only breeding with Phiarlan/Thuranni would produce dragonmarked Eladrin. The Eladrin are not native to Khorvaire/Aerenal, nor have they dwelt therein long enough to develop marks independently.
I do hope that 'marked Eladrin remain uncommon, or even unknown, but that's just personal preference.
I agree 100% with Chris that Eladrin and Elves would logically be able to breed. Elves and Humans can breed, afterall, and they aren't nearly as closely related.
No one is disputing that. But what has been reiterated time and time again on these boards by the game designers is that one of the most mystical (and of Draconic Prophecy signifigance) aspects of the Marks is that they are not tied to genetics. If a Phiarlan family line interbreeds with humans, no half-elves resulting from that would be Shadow Marked (those this doesn't prohibit some Half-Elf Mark developing on them or their children at some later date). Part of the mystery, and one of the things the Dragons find so fascinating about the Marks, is that it isn't just genetics and family history.
One of the things James Wyatt made clear at panels prior to 4Eberron's release was that the Marks were being made available to players outside of the normal races, not to the game world at large. I'm guessing it's an editor's error, since this actually is a rather large retcon, considering the fact that Eladrin are, according p. 21, right alongside Elves in controlling the House...despite only really being around for four years. And, as other have remarked, if the justification is that genetics allows (which has never been part of the Marks), then what reason is there that Drow in 3.5 never had the Mark of Shadow? In fact, Drow are closer related to Elves in Eberron than Eladrin are.
And just to rebutt a point about what FR did with Eladrin and Elves to say they're "basically the same": that's what FR did. Eberron could have made Aerenal Elves into Eladrin, and the Tairndal/Valenar into regular Elves. But they didn't, because there is a division. The shoe-horning of the Eladrin race into an established story element not only retcons (something they said they wouldn't do) and goes against a singular part of the essence of Dragonmarks as established in Eberron's setting prior to 4e's release (namely the non-genetic mystery of the Marks that fascinates the Dragons), but it also marrs the efforts made by the ECG authors to establish Eladrin as distinct, unique and original in Eberron, and does a disservice to that effort. I firmly believe it was an editorial error or accidental past-draft inclusion.
In short, I take things which are retcons (and the existence of Eladrin and Deva need not be, if they are as rare as is established) and throw them out, because the designers stated they would not be doing that. If I choose to ignore published material, it is because I want to honour their word, and if they are men of their word (of which I have no doubt), I'm sure they'd appreciate that.
No one is disputing that. But what has been reiterated time and time again on these boards by the game designers is that one of the most mystical (and of Draconic Prophecy signifigance) aspects of the Marks is that they are not tied to genetics.
Indeed. The issue of Elf/Eladrin interbreeding did seem to have been raised, if only as a minor subpoint. I could've misinterpreted what I read, of course. That can happen when you're trying to catch up with a thread several days after it's started. :embarrass
I guess I agree more with Chris than I realized. (That surprises me, since I thought I mostly disagreed). I agree that Eladrin and Elves interbreeding could feasibly lead to 'marked Eladrin. I'm not thrilled by the idea, and agree that it is techically a retcon, but so be it. They may not exist in my campaign, or may be aberrations (not the DnD-type :P ) at best.
I do feel that Eladrin and Elves are distinct enough at this point that no Eladrin would ever develop a 'mark independent of elven blood. I realize that was never up for debate, though; or, at the very least, hasn't been relevant since page of this thread. I got the feeling that Ellorin was alluding to a related point (the role of Khorvaire and Aerenal in the appearance of Dragonmarks) and jumped in to reiterate the same thought.
I do feel that Eladrin and Elves are distinct enough at this point that no Eladrin would ever develop a 'mark independent of elven blood. I realize that was never up for debate, though; or, at the very least, hasn't been relevant since page of this thread. I got the feeling that Ellorin was alluding to a related point (the role of Khorvaire and Aerenal in the appearance of Dragonmarks) and jumped in to reiterate the same thought.
More or less
.All of this ignores the fact that Dragonmarks have only ever appeared in Khorvaire and Aerenal. Not Sarlona, not Xen'drik, not Argonessen, and certainly not the Feywild.
Nived, I just made this point and was scolded. You'd better go sit quietly in the corner or something. ;)
Apparently, not everyone thought this is as relevant to the debate as we three. (This is not a dig, davethebrave--just a joke).
Hm...ninja'd.
I guess I agree more with Chris than I realized. (That surprises me, since I thought I mostly disagreed). I agree that Eladrin and Elves interbreeding could feasibly lead to 'marked Eladrin. I'm not thrilled by the idea, and agree that it is techically a retcon, but so be it. They may not exist in my campaign, or may be aberrations (not the DnD-type :P ) at best.
Well if that's agreeing with Chris, then I guess I do too. Because they may not exist in my campaign, or it'd be an aberration on a player (or, as I said earlier in this thread, I may go with a "secret House experimenting on Eladrin babies because WTF how did they get Marks?!") Because I think that anything could feasibly lead to any Dragonmark appearing on any race...if it serves the story. This doesn't serve the canon story, but it might serve someone's individual story, which I guess is my point. It shouldn't be canon, but I'd argue 'til I was blue in the face with anyone who tried to tell someone they couldn't make every Kalashtar in their game manifest the Mark of Detection at birth. That's their game, and their right. What I'm a little miffed about is the disservice this does to the efforts to make Eladrin Eberron unique to Eberron, as opposed to core Eladrin or FR Eladrin, and just makes them "core Eladrin what got Marks but no one know'd it afore duh hur hur hur".
What I'm a little miffed about is the disservice this does to the efforts to make Eladrin Eberron unique to Eberron, as opposed to core Eladrin or FR Eladrin, and just makes them "core Eladrin what got Marks but no one know'd it afore duh hur hur hur".
I can see this, and I have a feeling I'd be of the exact sentiment with any other race. For some reason, though, Eladrin seem to bother me slightly less. I guess it's because elves were eladrin long, long ago.
Of course, I'd throw a fit if someone said a Kalashtar could manifest a 'mark due to a human parent. Maybe it's because we know definitively what happens when a human and Kalashtar breed? With Elves and Eladrin, we don't. What exactly is the offspring?
I have a feeling that the real answer to why one bothers me far less is selective nerd-rage on my part. :P
Dogs have been bred for millennia. An Alsatian looks almost nothing like a Shih Tzu. They're still the same species, and you can still breed them to each other (although it would probably be pretty uncomfortable for both) and get offspring that exhibit the traits of either.
Dogs are something pretty special though.
They have a Gene that allows for changing features, features that in most other species would have broken off into other distinct speciations if they had made that drastic of a a change. That allows an Italian Greyhound to be the same species as a Great Dane, and breed fertile children.
A lot of horse-like species can breed also, and are really quite similar- not as dissimilar as some breeds of dog are from each other , but they are never fertile. Same with feline species, go ligers!
If any D&D species has an adaptable dog-like gene, it is the human!
The amount of time that has gone by and magical genetic manipulation that occurred, I would venture any children from any Drow/Eladrin/Elf pairing would be infertile, or at least unmarkable, due to the nature of the magic.
Anyway I like the idea that a small enclave of Phiarlans are living in the feyspire. Not the idea that there are marked eladrin.
Anyway I like the idea that a small enclave of Phiarlans are living in the feyspire. Not the idea that there are marked eladrin.
Same here.
I can see this, and I have a feeling I'd be of the exact sentiment with any other race. For some reason, though, Eladrin seem to bother me slightly less. I guess it's because elves were eladrin long, long ago.
Of course, I'd throw a fit if someone said a Kalashtar could manifest a 'mark due to a human parent. Maybe it's because we know definitively what happens when a human and Kalashtar breed? With Elves and Eladrin, we don't. What exactly is the offspring?
I have a feeling that the real answer to why one bothers me far less is selective nerd-rage on my part. :P
Well, we know what happens when Elves and Drow breed, and that is no Marks on Drow, and Elves are magical genetic experiments of Eladrin from tens of thousands of years ago, and Drow are magical genetic experiments of Elves from thousands of years ago, making them both closer in nature (both magical genetic experiments) and time. So Eladrin breeding with Elves shouldn't produce this, IMHO, any more frequently than a human with a Mark breeding with a kalashtar should produce it: i.e. one time, and that time is a PC.
Well, we know what happens when Elves and Drow breed...
When did we learn this? I agree with the outcome (non-marked drow), but from what official source does this come?
When did we learn this? I agree with the outcome (non-marked drow), but from what official source does this come?
There was mention of it in City of Stormreach, I believe (currently lent out to one of my players, so I can't check it).
May I just chime in and reiterate that I think you're all taking this way too seriously?
Was that an admission of defeat I just heard? :P
The afformentioned Death marked drow and eladrin that were never purged, for one.
If eladrin, elves, and drow are all just one big speices, you need to account for the Mark of Death in all of them.
Why? The 3.5 ECS had a theory in it that the dragonmarks might originate from environmental conditions tied to the dragonshards.
If there are no dragonshards in the Feywild, the Eladrin would never have been exposed to that cause.
But perhaps it isn't just exposure to the dragonshards. The oldest mark appeared around -2200 YK. Perhaps there is something else.
May I just chime in and reiterate that I think you're all taking this way too seriously?
I think this thread continues because the discussion has sort of outgrown the original debate. It's more of a leisurely discussion for certain, at this point. In general, the same three or four points keep arising again and again.
There was mention of it in City of Stormreach, I believe (currently lent out to one of my players, so I can't check it).
I'll have to check this tomorrow, as it's way to late to care right now. Thanks for the reference. If I don't find it, I'm going to have you digging through books right along with me. ;)
All of this ignores the fact that Dragonmarks have only ever appeared in Khorvaire and Aerenal. Not Sarlona, not Xen'drik, not Argonessen, and certainly not the Feywild.
I agree that this is an important point. However, bear in mind that Taer Syraen moves (or moved) between Thelanis and Khorvaire. As such, a dragonmarked child could be born in the coterminous phase. However, if I were to do such a thing, I'd still make it a singular and recent occurance - possibly a very significant event signifying the feyspires being cut off from Thelanis.
Mistake or not, the existence of a group dragonmarked eladrin within Taer Syraen is a CONTRADICTION. It directly contradicts the table on page 21 of the EPG which states that the mark of shadow is an ELF dragonmark, not “Elf and Eladrin”. It contradicts the statement in the ECG that DMs are discouraged from having NPCs with out-of-race dragonmarks. It’s not mentioned in the primary entry on Taer Syraen (ECG p. 83). This latter point indicates the lack of communication – an EPG author thought it was a neat idea and added it in, without mentioning it to the ECG author working on the houses or the EPG designer working on the race list, and it slipped past the editor. If it had been noticed, then there would have been a discussion as to whether it was appropriate, and either the eladrin entry or the entry on page 21 would have been amended accordingly. So it might have stayed that way - but as it is, it's a contradiction. Therefore it is up to you as a DM to decide whether you prefer to stick to what's said on page 21, or if you like having shadowmarked eladrin NPCs.
As ChristheS says, my opinions are my opinions, not gospel. If you LIKE the idea, it makes no difference what I think. But it is a contradiction, and you’ll have to decide which version you want to use.
As for Kaius and the eladrin, this is certainly discussed in more detail in the ECG. Again, as this is a recent development, it is a source of considerable tension in the region.
Therefore it is up to you as a DM to decide whether you prefer to stick to what's said on page 21, or if you like having shadowmarked eladrin NPCs.
As ChristheS says, my opinions are my opinions, not gospel. If you LIKE the idea, it makes no difference what I think. But it is a contradiction, and you’ll have to decide which version you want to use.
I'll probably ignore it, myself, until the day a player starts discussing a PC from said enclave. Then, I'll have to decide how unique such a character will be in "my" Eberron.
As for Kaius and the eladrin, this is certainly discussed in more detail in the ECG. Again, as this is a recent development, it is a source of considerable tension in the region.
Though novels aren't canon, this scenario reminded me of a similar situation in which the Llesh Haruuc finds himself in the novel Doom of Kings. Considering the Darguul have Shae Joridal besieged, canon and novel mesh pretty well, in this case.
Those poor eladrin sure have landed in a heap of "it". Your cities suddenly appearing within the borders of nations that have been on war-footing for a century?! That's bad news.
Was that an admission of defeat I just heard? :P
More of an admission that my original question ('why is it such a big deal') is never going to be answered to my satisfaction.
Besides, the fact that it's in the book means that I don't have to prove my point
As for it being a contradiction, 'specific > general' is a principle I adhere to when reading fluff as well as mechanics, so it never occurred to me when reading it that it was.More of an admission that my original question ('why is it such a big deal') is never going to be answered to my satisfaction.
Besides, the fact that it's in the book means that I don't have to prove my point
Well, specifically, Hellcow just noted that it contradicts a statement in the upcoming Eberron Campaign Guide that DMs are discouraged from having NPCs with out-of-race dragonmarks.
Well, specifically, Hellcow just noted that it contradicts a statement in the upcoming Eberron Campaign Guide that DMs are discouraged from having NPCs with out-of-race dragonmarks.
I'm pretty sure that Chris really doesn't care. ;)
Everyone realizes, by now, that this is the result of poor communication (on at least this point) between authors or a misunderstanding of said authors. I don't think you're ever going to get Chris to see this as a problem. If I can presume to speak for him, for a moment, I'd say he chooses to see this as a legitimate opportunity to enhance his game, rather than a problematic break with canon. He also, emphatically, thinks it's no big deal.
I'm pretty sure that Chris really doesn't care. ;)
Everyone realizes, by now, that this is the result of poor communication (on at least this point) between authors or a misunderstanding of said authors. I don't think you're ever going to get Chris to see this as a problem. If I can presume to speak for him, for a moment, I'd say he chooses to see this as a legitimate opportunity to enhance his game, rather than a problematic break with canon. He also, emphatically, thinks it's no big deal.
Which is fine. I'm not arguing about what he does in his game, I'm just saying it's not canon for the setting, or at the very least it's contradictory canon, where it is both true and not true simultaneously, depending on which book you read.
Which is fine. I'm not arguing about what he does in his game, I'm just saying it's not canon for the setting, or at the very least it's contradictory canon, where it is both true and not true simultaneously, depending on which book you read.
You'll hear no arguments, here. It's definitely contradictory.
Eladrin are from Thelanis, and always have been (even in 3.5 when they were chaotic good outsiders). They have not been subsumed into elven culture or identity.
The high-magic elves of Eberron, the Aerenal, are still elves, not eladrin. Regardless of how the core setting casted them, Eberron actually keeps them closer to their Outsider roots. In Eberron, Eladrin are otherworldly beings from Thelanis, just like they always have been.
How Forgotten Realms does it has no bearing whatsoever on the Eberron campaign setting. Elves did not come about from Eladrin who stayed in the natural world to long, they were engineered, created by Giants, as were drow from them. They are not a natural outgrowth of the same species like they are in FR, they are altered and different.
Also, sure, dragonmarks come from familes. House Vol was an elven family on Aerenal, but they descended from elven slaves in Xen'drik, and Drow had to come from somewhere (specifically, elven slaves in Xen'drik). The bloodline of House Vol could indeed run through drow, as could that of House Phiarlain. Going back even further, elven slaves in Xen'drik had to come from somewhere (specifically, eladrin in a feyspire). So both House Phiarlain and House Vol can trace their bloodlines ultimately to one Eladrin city, a city that world-falled back and forth from the Thelanis and spent most its time there. It would be somewhat unreasonable to assume that any Eladrin bloodlines in that city were wholely contained within. They most likely traveled and traded with the other feyspires and non-worldfalling establishments.
So we have elven bloodlines extending all the way back to Eladrin in Thelanis. So where's our Mark of Death eladrin?
I mean, eladrin are just the same thing as elves, right? So the bloodline is there, regardless of the genetic and magical experimentation that corrupted them for untold generations, right?
EDIT: Also, my tone being heated probably is due to my fustration with someone staunchly defending an obvious error. I'm actually not a "cannon-cripple". I often comment helpfully on other posters' threads about their off-beat ideas, like female-form warforged capable of reproduction. If it makes for a good story, regardless of cannon, I'm all for it.
But taking one of the key facets of Eberron, the Dragonmarked Houses, and mucking them up with retcons is another thing completely. I was fine with out-of-race marks being PC only. That makes a good story. However redefining what is out-of-race for a mark does not strike me as something we were supposed to expect. In Keith's own words, he believes it was an unintentional error. This is an edit to the setting itself, not merely an inclusion of a potential story hook. They changed something, something BIG, and they said they weren't going to.
Also, sure, dragonmarks come from familes. House Vol was an elven family on Aerenal, but they descended from elven slaves in Xen'drik, and Drow had to come from somewhere (specifically, elven slaves in Xen'drik). The bloodline of House Vol could indeed run through drow, as could that of House Phiarlain. Going back even further, elven slaves in Xen'drik had to come from somewhere (specifically, eladrin in a feyspire). So both House Phiarlain and House Vol can trace their bloodlines ultimately to one Eladrin city, a city that world-falled back and forth from the Thelanis and spent most its time there. It would be somewhat unreasonable to assume that any Eladrin bloodlines in that city were wholely contained within. They most likely traveled and traded with the other feyspires and non-worldfalling establishments.
So we have elven bloodlines extending all the way back to Eladrin in Thelanis. So where's our Mark of Death eladrin?
Good question. Here's a thought.Where our Marked of Death drow are-nonexistent. They might share a distant common ancestry, but they are not Vol.
Furthermore, I still believe that geography is a key factor here-as humans didn't bear any marks before they migrated to Khorvaire and elves bore no marks in Xen'drik, Eladrin bore no mark in Thelanis. They're the outsider, as you have described. They lack the Eberron connection. I do not recall any feyspire in Aerenal-the rare Eladrin who might appear there means nothing. So why marks now? Because the mark came to them. The vast majority of Phiarlan migrates to Khorvaire, which now becomes the center of the mark of Shadow. The Prophecy moves in mysterious ways-in some ways, it expanded its shadowy mark on the (very) distant kin of the elves. Perhaps the Prophecy did so in anticipation of a stronger presence of Eladrin to Eberron's fate and of the Mourning as well. The feyspires were fated to disconnect from Thelanis, the Eladrin to remain in Eberron.
Just a theory, I know. Dismantle it at will
.Good question. Here's a thought.Where our Marked of Death drow are-nonexistent. They might share a distant common ancestry, but they are not Vol.
Furthermore, I still believe that geography is a key factor here-as humans didn't bear any marks before they migrated to Khorvaire and elves bore no marks in Xen'drik, Eladrin bore no mark in Thelanis. They're the outsider, as you have described. They lack the Eberron connection. I do not recall any feyspire in Aerenal-the rare Eladrin who might appear there means nothing. So why marks now? Because the mark came to them. The vast majority of Phiarlan migrates to Khorvaire, which now becomes the center of the mark of Shadow. The Prophecy moves in mysterious ways-in some ways, it expanded its shadowy mark on the (very) distant kin of the elves. Perhaps the Prophecy did so in anticipation of a stronger presence of Eladrin to Eberron's fate and of the Mourning as well. The feyspires were fated to disconnect from Thelanis, the Eladrin to remain in Eberron.
Just a theory, I know. Dismantle it at will
It's a good theory, and it does make sense given what we have.
However, it's still has no place in standard Eberron cannon. It's good for what it is, a single DM's vision of how the prophecy works.
It's a good theory, and it does make sense given what we have.
However, it's still has no place in standard Eberron cannon. It's good for what it is, a single DM's vision of how the prophecy works.
Thaks-as it should be! I don't know if I will keep it though-after all, it seems that there was a mess up. I'm just trying to see of it could be if use.
.BTW, am I the only one who believes that Kaius should proceed and declare war on Taer Syraen? Such a moves counters a real (frozen) threat, gives the ambitious warlords a way to glory and consolidates his position(see? Our king is no coward. He's just wise in picking his enemies). Getting rid of those arrogant !@#$% from Karrnath is a worthy goal, don't you think?
This falls right in with the Eberron line of thinking. This works great. I can see it now as the Karnnathi warlords rally behind their king to wage war against the Eladrin who have invaded their sovereignty.
I mean, eladrin are just the same thing as elves, right? So the bloodline is there, regardless of the genetic and magical experimentation that corrupted them for untold generations, right?
Dogs have been bred for millennia. An Alsatian looks almost nothing like a Shih Tzu. They're still the same species, and you can still breed them to each other (although it would probably be pretty uncomfortable for both) and get offspring that exhibit the traits of either.
EDIT: Also, my tone being heated probably is due to my fustration with someone staunchly defending an obvious error.
It's in the book and it fires my imagination. I accept what's written, as it does not affect my perception of the setting's fundamental continuity and metaphysics at all. Until such time as they post a revision to the book that edits the bits you're having issues with, you can speculate that it's an error all you like... but not even Keith can say so definitively.
They changed something, something BIG, and they said they weren't going to.
It's hardly 'big.' It's at most a few dozen representatives of one family. You're making an eldritch machine out of a spanner.
Also, I notice that you skipped right over me pointing out that Eberron Eladrin are more like 3.5 Eladrin than Core 4e Eladrin. Their place in the setting hasn't changed, they were, and are, otherwordly beings from another plane of existance. The fact that they're more PC-viable has no bearing on their place in the story.
Also, while dogs of many different breeds exist, I don't think we ever used genetic experimentation (just selective breeding). We never futzed with their DNA or used super-science to make them any more or less than what was already in their genes.
The Giants removed the ability to teleport from Eladrin, they severed a fundamental part of them from their home. That goes a bit beyond eugenics.
It's a good theory, and it does make sense given what we have.
However, it's still has no place in standard Eberron canon. It's good for what it is, a single DM's vision of how the prophecy works.
I wouldn't say it has "no" place in Eberron canon. I believe it always has been canon that Dragonmarks form only on creatures of Khorvaire and Aerenal (and not all of them, of course).
That's why we never have to worry about Drow with dragonmarks. No matter their eladrin sires, they have not been exposed to whatever ambient factor present in Khorvaire and Aerenal that combines with heredity to produce dragonmarks.
I believe that's the point that Ellorin's been trying to make. It was a point I wished to clarify early into page one; but, as a late-comer to the thread, I just now got the chance to weigh-in.
The only way Eladrin will ever manifest marks, assuming no retcon of the above principle, is interbreeding with their distant kin, the elves. I, too, would prefer this be uncommon, but I don't mind it in very, very small numbers. It doesn't surpise me at all that this seems to be the result of a mistaken understanding by one of the EPG authors.
I really wish they'd have let Keith and James proofread the book before publishing. They could've saved us from things like warforged swapping limbs.
And here we have "a few dozen" such NPCs stealing PC thunder.
Out-of-race marks are an issue because the person bearing them (usually) has no connection to the dragonmark family, and thus no place in the economic and social structure of that family. This branch of Phiarlan... well, they're Phiarlan. They, their parents, their siblings, and their cousins think of them as Phiarlan. And the average person can't tell the difference between an elf and an eladrin (for instance, in The Dragon Forge Aunn stumbles into Thelanis by accident and doesn't realize he's not talking to elves until after he leaves), so there's no sense of 'hey, whut?' associated with them in the world.
Also, I notice that you skipped right over me pointing out that Eberron Eladrin are more like 3.5 Eladrin than Core 4e Eladrin.
That's because I don't think it's relevant. They used to not be a demographic worthy of consideration: now they are. That's a change, and a somewhat bigger one than this molehill.
Also, while dogs of many different breeds exist, I don't think we ever used genetic experimentation (just selective breeding). We never futzed with their DNA or used super-science to make them any more or less than what was already in their genes.
Selective breeding is genetic experimentation - the only difference is that it takes a long time as opposed to a short time. And it takes an awful lot of futzing with something's DNA to make it a distinct (and thus incompatible) species as opposed to just a different breed or race.
That said, I'll reiterate the opinion that only breeding with Phiarlan/Thuranni would produce dragonmarked Eladrin. The Eladrin are not native to Khorvaire/Aerenal, nor have they dwelt therein long enough to develop marks independently.
I do hope that 'marked Eladrin remain uncommon, or even unknown, but that's just personal preference.
I agree 100% with Chris that Eladrin and Elves would logically be able to breed. Elves and Humans can breed, afterall, and they aren't nearly as closely related.
No one is disputing that. But what has been reiterated time and time again on these boards by the game designers is that one of the most mystical (and of Draconic Prophecy signifigance) aspects of the Marks is that they are not tied to genetics. If a Phiarlan family line interbreeds with humans, no half-elves resulting from that would be Shadow Marked (those this doesn't prohibit some Half-Elf Mark developing on them or their children at some later date). Part of the mystery, and one of the things the Dragons find so fascinating about the Marks, is that it isn't just genetics and family history.
One of the things James Wyatt made clear at panels prior to 4Eberron's release was that the Marks were being made available to players outside of the normal races, not to the game world at large. I'm guessing it's an editor's error, since this actually is a rather large retcon, considering the fact that Eladrin are, according p. 21, right alongside Elves in controlling the House...despite only really being around for four years. And, as other have remarked, if the justification is that genetics allows (which has never been part of the Marks), then what reason is there that Drow in 3.5 never had the Mark of Shadow? In fact, Drow are closer related to Elves in Eberron than Eladrin are.
And just to rebutt a point about what FR did with Eladrin and Elves to say they're "basically the same": that's what FR did. Eberron could have made Aerenal Elves into Eladrin, and the Tairndal/Valenar into regular Elves. But they didn't, because there is a division. The shoe-horning of the Eladrin race into an established story element not only retcons (something they said they wouldn't do) and goes against a singular part of the essence of Dragonmarks as established in Eberron's setting prior to 4e's release (namely the non-genetic mystery of the Marks that fascinates the Dragons), but it also marrs the efforts made by the ECG authors to establish Eladrin as distinct, unique and original in Eberron, and does a disservice to that effort. I firmly believe it was an editorial error or accidental past-draft inclusion.
In short, I take things which are retcons (and the existence of Eladrin and Deva need not be, if they are as rare as is established) and throw them out, because the designers stated they would not be doing that. If I choose to ignore published material, it is because I want to honour their word, and if they are men of their word (of which I have no doubt), I'm sure they'd appreciate that.
No one is disputing that. But what has been reiterated time and time again on these boards by the game designers is that one of the most mystical (and of Draconic Prophecy signifigance) aspects of the Marks is that they are not tied to genetics.
Indeed. The issue of Elf/Eladrin interbreeding did seem to have been raised, if only as a minor subpoint. I could've misinterpreted what I read, of course. That can happen when you're trying to catch up with a thread several days after it's started. :embarrass
I guess I agree more with Chris than I realized. (That surprises me, since I thought I mostly disagreed). I agree that Eladrin and Elves interbreeding could feasibly lead to 'marked Eladrin. I'm not thrilled by the idea, and agree that it is techically a retcon, but so be it. They may not exist in my campaign, or may be aberrations (not the DnD-type :P ) at best.
I do feel that Eladrin and Elves are distinct enough at this point that no Eladrin would ever develop a 'mark independent of elven blood. I realize that was never up for debate, though; or, at the very least, hasn't been relevant since page of this thread. I got the feeling that Ellorin was alluding to a related point (the role of Khorvaire and Aerenal in the appearance of Dragonmarks) and jumped in to reiterate the same thought.
I do feel that Eladrin and Elves are distinct enough at this point that no Eladrin would ever develop a 'mark independent of elven blood. I realize that was never up for debate, though; or, at the very least, hasn't been relevant since page of this thread. I got the feeling that Ellorin was alluding to a related point (the role of Khorvaire and Aerenal in the appearance of Dragonmarks) and jumped in to reiterate the same thought.
More or less
.All of this ignores the fact that Dragonmarks have only ever appeared in Khorvaire and Aerenal. Not Sarlona, not Xen'drik, not Argonessen, and certainly not the Feywild.
Nived, I just made this point and was scolded. You'd better go sit quietly in the corner or something. ;)
Apparently, not everyone thought this is as relevant to the debate as we three. (This is not a dig, davethebrave--just a joke).
Hm...ninja'd.
I guess I agree more with Chris than I realized. (That surprises me, since I thought I mostly disagreed). I agree that Eladrin and Elves interbreeding could feasibly lead to 'marked Eladrin. I'm not thrilled by the idea, and agree that it is techically a retcon, but so be it. They may not exist in my campaign, or may be aberrations (not the DnD-type :P ) at best.
Well if that's agreeing with Chris, then I guess I do too. Because they may not exist in my campaign, or it'd be an aberration on a player (or, as I said earlier in this thread, I may go with a "secret House experimenting on Eladrin babies because WTF how did they get Marks?!") Because I think that anything could feasibly lead to any Dragonmark appearing on any race...if it serves the story. This doesn't serve the canon story, but it might serve someone's individual story, which I guess is my point. It shouldn't be canon, but I'd argue 'til I was blue in the face with anyone who tried to tell someone they couldn't make every Kalashtar in their game manifest the Mark of Detection at birth. That's their game, and their right. What I'm a little miffed about is the disservice this does to the efforts to make Eladrin Eberron unique to Eberron, as opposed to core Eladrin or FR Eladrin, and just makes them "core Eladrin what got Marks but no one know'd it afore duh hur hur hur".
What I'm a little miffed about is the disservice this does to the efforts to make Eladrin Eberron unique to Eberron, as opposed to core Eladrin or FR Eladrin, and just makes them "core Eladrin what got Marks but no one know'd it afore duh hur hur hur".
I can see this, and I have a feeling I'd be of the exact sentiment with any other race. For some reason, though, Eladrin seem to bother me slightly less. I guess it's because elves were eladrin long, long ago.
Of course, I'd throw a fit if someone said a Kalashtar could manifest a 'mark due to a human parent. Maybe it's because we know definitively what happens when a human and Kalashtar breed? With Elves and Eladrin, we don't. What exactly is the offspring?
I have a feeling that the real answer to why one bothers me far less is selective nerd-rage on my part. :P
Dogs have been bred for millennia. An Alsatian looks almost nothing like a Shih Tzu. They're still the same species, and you can still breed them to each other (although it would probably be pretty uncomfortable for both) and get offspring that exhibit the traits of either.
Dogs are something pretty special though.
They have a Gene that allows for changing features, features that in most other species would have broken off into other distinct speciations if they had made that drastic of a a change. That allows an Italian Greyhound to be the same species as a Great Dane, and breed fertile children.
A lot of horse-like species can breed also, and are really quite similar- not as dissimilar as some breeds of dog are from each other , but they are never fertile. Same with feline species, go ligers!
If any D&D species has an adaptable dog-like gene, it is the human!
The amount of time that has gone by and magical genetic manipulation that occurred, I would venture any children from any Drow/Eladrin/Elf pairing would be infertile, or at least unmarkable, due to the nature of the magic.
Anyway I like the idea that a small enclave of Phiarlans are living in the feyspire. Not the idea that there are marked eladrin.
Anyway I like the idea that a small enclave of Phiarlans are living in the feyspire. Not the idea that there are marked eladrin.
Same here.
I can see this, and I have a feeling I'd be of the exact sentiment with any other race. For some reason, though, Eladrin seem to bother me slightly less. I guess it's because elves were eladrin long, long ago.
Of course, I'd throw a fit if someone said a Kalashtar could manifest a 'mark due to a human parent. Maybe it's because we know definitively what happens when a human and Kalashtar breed? With Elves and Eladrin, we don't. What exactly is the offspring?
I have a feeling that the real answer to why one bothers me far less is selective nerd-rage on my part. :P
Well, we know what happens when Elves and Drow breed, and that is no Marks on Drow, and Elves are magical genetic experiments of Eladrin from tens of thousands of years ago, and Drow are magical genetic experiments of Elves from thousands of years ago, making them both closer in nature (both magical genetic experiments) and time. So Eladrin breeding with Elves shouldn't produce this, IMHO, any more frequently than a human with a Mark breeding with a kalashtar should produce it: i.e. one time, and that time is a PC.
Well, we know what happens when Elves and Drow breed...
When did we learn this? I agree with the outcome (non-marked drow), but from what official source does this come?
When did we learn this? I agree with the outcome (non-marked drow), but from what official source does this come?
There was mention of it in City of Stormreach, I believe (currently lent out to one of my players, so I can't check it).
May I just chime in and reiterate that I think you're all taking this way too seriously?
Was that an admission of defeat I just heard? :P
The afformentioned Death marked drow and eladrin that were never purged, for one.
If eladrin, elves, and drow are all just one big speices, you need to account for the Mark of Death in all of them.
Why? The 3.5 ECS had a theory in it that the dragonmarks might originate from environmental conditions tied to the dragonshards.
If there are no dragonshards in the Feywild, the Eladrin would never have been exposed to that cause.
But perhaps it isn't just exposure to the dragonshards. The oldest mark appeared around -2200 YK. Perhaps there is something else.
May I just chime in and reiterate that I think you're all taking this way too seriously?
I think this thread continues because the discussion has sort of outgrown the original debate. It's more of a leisurely discussion for certain, at this point. In general, the same three or four points keep arising again and again.
There was mention of it in City of Stormreach, I believe (currently lent out to one of my players, so I can't check it).
I'll have to check this tomorrow, as it's way to late to care right now. Thanks for the reference. If I don't find it, I'm going to have you digging through books right along with me. ;)
All of this ignores the fact that Dragonmarks have only ever appeared in Khorvaire and Aerenal. Not Sarlona, not Xen'drik, not Argonessen, and certainly not the Feywild.
I agree that this is an important point. However, bear in mind that Taer Syraen moves (or moved) between Thelanis and Khorvaire. As such, a dragonmarked child could be born in the coterminous phase. However, if I were to do such a thing, I'd still make it a singular and recent occurance - possibly a very significant event signifying the feyspires being cut off from Thelanis.
Mistake or not, the existence of a group dragonmarked eladrin within Taer Syraen is a CONTRADICTION. It directly contradicts the table on page 21 of the EPG which states that the mark of shadow is an ELF dragonmark, not “Elf and Eladrin”. It contradicts the statement in the ECG that DMs are discouraged from having NPCs with out-of-race dragonmarks. It’s not mentioned in the primary entry on Taer Syraen (ECG p. 83). This latter point indicates the lack of communication – an EPG author thought it was a neat idea and added it in, without mentioning it to the ECG author working on the houses or the EPG designer working on the race list, and it slipped past the editor. If it had been noticed, then there would have been a discussion as to whether it was appropriate, and either the eladrin entry or the entry on page 21 would have been amended accordingly. So it might have stayed that way - but as it is, it's a contradiction. Therefore it is up to you as a DM to decide whether you prefer to stick to what's said on page 21, or if you like having shadowmarked eladrin NPCs.
As ChristheS says, my opinions are my opinions, not gospel. If you LIKE the idea, it makes no difference what I think. But it is a contradiction, and you’ll have to decide which version you want to use.
As for Kaius and the eladrin, this is certainly discussed in more detail in the ECG. Again, as this is a recent development, it is a source of considerable tension in the region.
Therefore it is up to you as a DM to decide whether you prefer to stick to what's said on page 21, or if you like having shadowmarked eladrin NPCs.
As ChristheS says, my opinions are my opinions, not gospel. If you LIKE the idea, it makes no difference what I think. But it is a contradiction, and you’ll have to decide which version you want to use.
I'll probably ignore it, myself, until the day a player starts discussing a PC from said enclave. Then, I'll have to decide how unique such a character will be in "my" Eberron.
As for Kaius and the eladrin, this is certainly discussed in more detail in the ECG. Again, as this is a recent development, it is a source of considerable tension in the region.
Though novels aren't canon, this scenario reminded me of a similar situation in which the Llesh Haruuc finds himself in the novel Doom of Kings. Considering the Darguul have Shae Joridal besieged, canon and novel mesh pretty well, in this case.
Those poor eladrin sure have landed in a heap of "it". Your cities suddenly appearing within the borders of nations that have been on war-footing for a century?! That's bad news.
Was that an admission of defeat I just heard? :P
More of an admission that my original question ('why is it such a big deal') is never going to be answered to my satisfaction.
Besides, the fact that it's in the book means that I don't have to prove my point
As for it being a contradiction, 'specific > general' is a principle I adhere to when reading fluff as well as mechanics, so it never occurred to me when reading it that it was.More of an admission that my original question ('why is it such a big deal') is never going to be answered to my satisfaction.
Besides, the fact that it's in the book means that I don't have to prove my point
Well, specifically, Hellcow just noted that it contradicts a statement in the upcoming Eberron Campaign Guide that DMs are discouraged from having NPCs with out-of-race dragonmarks.
Well, specifically, Hellcow just noted that it contradicts a statement in the upcoming Eberron Campaign Guide that DMs are discouraged from having NPCs with out-of-race dragonmarks.
I'm pretty sure that Chris really doesn't care. ;)
Everyone realizes, by now, that this is the result of poor communication (on at least this point) between authors or a misunderstanding of said authors. I don't think you're ever going to get Chris to see this as a problem. If I can presume to speak for him, for a moment, I'd say he chooses to see this as a legitimate opportunity to enhance his game, rather than a problematic break with canon. He also, emphatically, thinks it's no big deal.
I'm pretty sure that Chris really doesn't care. ;)
Everyone realizes, by now, that this is the result of poor communication (on at least this point) between authors or a misunderstanding of said authors. I don't think you're ever going to get Chris to see this as a problem. If I can presume to speak for him, for a moment, I'd say he chooses to see this as a legitimate opportunity to enhance his game, rather than a problematic break with canon. He also, emphatically, thinks it's no big deal.
Which is fine. I'm not arguing about what he does in his game, I'm just saying it's not canon for the setting, or at the very least it's contradictory canon, where it is both true and not true simultaneously, depending on which book you read.
Which is fine. I'm not arguing about what he does in his game, I'm just saying it's not canon for the setting, or at the very least it's contradictory canon, where it is both true and not true simultaneously, depending on which book you read.
You'll hear no arguments, here. It's definitely contradictory.