So, I'm gearing up for when my game hits it's stride into the wonderful world of fighting against the return of Xoriat, and as such was looking for information of the Daelkyr. I looked through my Player's Guide to Eberron (3.5) and was struck by how it seemingly contradicts my most beloved encounter with Daelkyr: The Dragon Below series by a Mr. Don Bassingthwaite (I probably butchered that spelling). In it, there's a scene:
SPOILERS....
No I'm serious: SPOILERS
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Alright, anyway, there's a scene where the Bad Guy goes to see his Daelkyr master, and I got the impression that the Lord was imprisoned in the stone, or some non-dimensional space. I believe Dah'mir even mentions him being trapped.
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End spoiler
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So, yes, it seems the Daelkyr are trapped in Khyber. NOt just in a "can't leave Khyber" sense, but in the sense that they are imprisoned, and their prisons is IN Khyber. However, in the PG to Eberron, in the Abberations section (also, why isn't the Gatekeeper Mystagogue in the section on druids or the reaches; small nitpick), it says that the Daelkyr are essentially just running around in Khyber like it's a Chuck E. Cheese's and they have free tokens! I mean, one of them is running around in a great. bloody. Gargoyle-fortress.
Is this a slip on Mr Bassingthwaite's part, is there something I'm missing? Does this still apply to the Daelkyr lords of 4e?
So to be honest just go with what you feel is best. Heck in my setting one of the Daelkyr is free and has been for nearly a Millenia now...
One could read "sealed" as "bound". However, this was never the intent. The daelkyr weren't defeated; they were simply pushed under the carpet and trapped there. This is what distinguishes the daelkyr from the Rajahs of the Age of Demons; the Rajahs ARE physically bound in Khyber Shards, while the daelkyr can't come to the surface but are still active. If you continue to read the 3.5 description, this is spelled out in a number of places. It states that the daelkyr are "biding their time in the depths of Khyber, waiting for Xoriat to become coterminous once more" and that "until Xoriat and the material plane are again coterminous, the daelkyr are indulging their other sordid escapades". It talks about the subterranean citadels of the daelkyr lords - citadels presumably crafted after they were driven into Khyber - and how these citadels are often guarded by creations of the daelkyr itself. This is why the ECS included stats for a daelkyr and not for a rajah - because it's easier for PCs to encounter a daelkyr.
This is borne out in sources other than the PGTE. Stormreach notes that Belashyrra may have left Khorvaire, moving across Khyber to Xen'drik, where he has been battling the Umbragen; this is further discussed in most sources that mention the Umbragen. The 4E ECS says Legend has it that six daelkyr yet walk in Khyber, although this number is impossible to confirm. And the article "Touched By Madness" in Dragon #337 says: While trapped in Khyber, the daelkyr are not physically bound and continue to create new horrors to haunt the darkness. The daelkyr cannot return to their home plane and they cannot travel to the surface of the world, but through their works they have strengthened the connection between Khyber and Xoriat. This connection makes the Underdark a realm of madness and death.
With that said, is Don WRONG? Not necessarily. At least six daelkyr are said to walk in Khyber. But there could be another dozen that are imprisoned in Khyber. As I said above, as a force, the daelkyr weren't defeated, and thus they aren't bound. But SOME of them may have been truly defeated and bound, now struggling to get out.
Beyond this, PajammaGod is of course correct - do what's right for your game. But per canon, Belashyrra, Orlassk, and other daelkyr are active in Khyber; this just doesn't reclude other daelkyr being imprisoned.
What keeps the daelkyr in Khyber? Why can't they just tunnel up to the surface?
Are they just bored until Xoriat becomes coterminus again? If they are so powerful why wouldn't they want to exert influence and or conquer the surface if possible?
I will just point out that as I recall, a fair bit of the published resources on the daelkyr, including the PG to Eberron did come after the publication of The Dragon Below. I tend to reconcile that sort of thing in my head as "it's a big world with a lot of mysteries."
Personally, I just think whoever wrote that section of Magic of Eberron just missed the point. (Then again, I felt a lot of points were missed with Magic of Eberron, but that's beside the point.)
I remember reading that scene in Don's first trilogy, and I interpreted it as the daelkyr just holding court while speaking with his minion on the surface. I didn't recall any specific mention of being being trapped in his citadel, and I just assumed he wasn't.
But yeah, I'd go with Keith on this one (as if that wasn't obvious). Some daelkyr might be completely inprisoned, while others may roam Khyber.
As for what keeps them in Khbyer, it's the Gatekeeper Seals. As for "tunneling around them", I don't think the seals are literal physical seals on holes into Khyber. I kind of see them as producing a magical force field beneath the surface of the planet that repels daelkyr wherever they try to tunnel up from.
As I recall, I think I might also have been thinking that he'd been physically bound by Gatekeeper magic to his throne (don't quote me on that - I can't recall at the moment if I have him walking around his throne room)... I tend to reconcile that sort of thing in my head as "it's a big world with a lot of mysteries."
And again, this is perfectly valid by canon. The fact that there are a number of daelkyr freely moving around in Khyber doesn't prevent there being others that are in some way more limited in their movement.
As for why the ones that ARE freely moving around don't just tunnel up, the idea is that being "sealed in Khyber" means just that. The Gatekeeper seals produced a mystical effect that prevents the daelkyr from leaving Khyber. This ties to an idea that's taken a little further in 4E, which is that Khyber isn't simply a certain depth of cavern, but rather that it is a literal demiplane within the world that can often be accessed by physical tunnels - like the idea of Orpheus walking to Hades. The daelkyr are trapped in this interior demiplane. But even if you just go by depth, the point would be that the seals allow daelkyr to move vertically, but not horizontally.
Gotcha! That clears things up for me. so a daelkyr could communicate and plot with underlings on the surface, but can't get there.
That works for me. Lots of minions for my PC's to carve through then.
Are they just bored until Xoriat becomes coterminus again? If they are so powerful why wouldn't they want to exert influence and or conquer the surface if possible?
The 3.5 ECS says this: The ancient seals placed by the Gatekeepers trap the daelkyr beneath Eberron and keep Xoriat from becoming coterminous, but the daelkyr have not made a concerted effort to destroy these seals. Their motives are inscrutable—above all things, the daelkyr are the lords of the Realm of Madness.
Tied to this is the fact that the daelkyr never wanted to conquer Eberron. Going back to the ECS again: [i]The daelkyr are immortal and endlessly patient, and their manner of thinking is almost impossible for mortals (or even other outsiders) to understand. For the daelkyr, destroying worlds appears to be a form of art...
This makes the daelkyr very different from the Aurum, the Dreaming Dark, the Lords of Dust, or the other power brokers. They aren't here to conquer. They are here to transform - and in the process to destroy, but even that is incidental. In practice, this LOOKS like a war; they use armies, take prisoners, turn them into monsters, and so on. But their plan was always to change, destroy, and move on. Thanks to these Gatekeeper seals, the process is taking a few thousand years longer than planned, but it will get there; in the meantime, some of them are pursuing other interests.
Again, however, this describes the daelkyr as a whole. Each daelkyr is an individual. Belashyrra may be content to watch the world through his many eyes, while the Master of Silence has other plans.
As a side note, the 3.5 ECS entry on Mind Flayers says: In many ways, the mind flayers seem more interested in reopening the gates to Xoriat than the daelkyr themselves. The daelkyr are immortal and can afford to wait for another ten thousand years; the illithids are more concerned with the passage of time.
A silly question but still....
I am having big problems seeing how the seals that prevent the Daelkyr in Khyber from escaping works? The demons/overlords/Rajahs are bound in dragonshards so they simply can't get to the surface. However the Daelkyr can move freely in Khyber. Khyber is basically below the surface so getting there is basically going down there. There are a few locations that leads to Khyber and the players can freely move from Khyber and the surface. The road may be dangerous however.
So if the players can get down to Khyber and say hello to a Daelkyr why can't the Daelkyr do the same. All they need to is to find the way to the surface. A lot of monsters/races live in Khyber and I imagine many prefer to stay there and won't go to the surface. This is not the case for a lot of Daelkyrs.
So how are they really sealed? Are there basically an invisible Jedi Force Field only affecting Daelkyrs and preventing them from moving further than that/this?
So how are they really sealed? Are there basically an invisible Jedi Force Field only affecting Daelkyrs and preventing them from moving further than that/this?
Yes. The seals prevent Eberron from coming into alignment with Xoriat, and they prevent the daelkyr from leaving Khyber. You can think of this as preventing them from physically approaching the surface, or you can consider Khyber to be a realm that actually has different mystical characteristics than Eberron - so the influence of the seals can't reach into Khyber, allowing the daelkyr to remain active there.
There's a current thread listing the Overlords, and I was wondering if there was a comprehensive list of all 6 daelkyr that could be compiled. I figured I'd ask in this thread rather than start a new one.
Belashyrra, the Lord of Eyes (PGtE 3.5, pg 85) (rumored to have created beholders, but that's in question. He's believed to be able to look through anyone's eyes at any moment while within his fortress.)
Orlassk, the Master of Stone (PGtE 3.5, pg 85) (loves creating creatures that can petrify living things. Like bassilisks and possibly medusas, though medusas reject the idea that they were created by a daelkyr.)
Kyrzin, Prince of Slime (PGtE 3.5, pg 85)
Bhodex'av'gr (Five Nations, pg 68) (Focuses on poisonous, self-consuming ecologies)
Those are the only daelkyr with names I could find. Bhodex'av'gr is only mentioned in Five Nations, while I think the ones from PGtE have gotten more "press" (Except maybe Kyrzin. I think he was made up for the PGtE and never mentioned again?).
Or some other notable daelkyr:
The Stained One (Magic of Eberron pg 23) - physically imprisoned inside an "isolation pod". Said to be one of the weakest ones captured in a physical prison.
The Cutting Master (The Dragon Below trilogy of novels, by Don Bassingthwaite) - Only exists as a ghost, as he was slain during the Dealkyr War by a Dhakanni hero weilding Aram ("Wrath" in goblin), an artifact sword. He had altered himself so his fingers were all as long and sharp as shortswords.
The Master of Silence (The Dragon Below trilogy of novels, by Don Bassingthwaite) - A daelkyr so enamored with silence, he removed his own mouth. Is very interested in psionic power.
Aaaaand to toot my own horn, the daelkyr I created for my recently completed campaign was Gagethga, the Lord of Shattered Thoughts (He was specifically the embodiment of dissociative identity disorder, and also very interested in psionics)
Nothing prevents physical movement between the layers of a multi-layer plane. For most intentions they act as a single plane. But they have different rules-of-reality. The traits of Eberron are what we recognize as "normal" for a world. Khyber is clearly maleviolent and dark, giving birth to unnatural things. While it might just seem like a series of caves and tunnels, the fact is that no matter what you do, it will never be cheerful and bright, and natural creatures will never belong there.
Khyber also has a trait related to binding things. As a reality, it came into being imprisoned by Eberron. That trait was reinforced by the sacrifice of the couatl, who used it to return the fiends to their source and hold them there. Khybershards are tiny pieces that reflect that binding property, the same way that a piece of metal from Fernia might be forever hot to the touch. The Gatekeeper druids reinforced Eberron's embrace of the unnatural things in Khyber after driving the daelkyr deep underground. That is how the seals work; they reinforce the existing laws of the universe.
That's one of the best explainations I've heard, Gurv. I've been considering it the same way you have, with Khyber being another "layer" of the material plane, but I missed the connection to a natural binding property of Khyber.
That is how the seals work; they reinforce the existing laws of the universe.
That's how I see it, and a much better way of explaining what I was trying to say. Nice job!
Khyber is clearly maleviolent and dark, giving birth to unnatural things. While it might just seem like a series of caves and tunnels...
IMO, there no reason it has to just seem like a series of caves and tunnels. That may be the most common appearance, but when I first suggested that the Abyss might be in Khyber (for The Savage Tide conversion) my thought was that you should be able to find wild and terrifying things in Khyber. The idea of strange worlds within the world is an established pulp trope, and something that makes a great deal of sense within Eberron. In my opinion, when you venture down through the right passages you might end up stumbling into a labyrinth of bronze, a living and carnivorous jungle, an ocean of green slime (with Kyrzin's citadel on an island in the midst of it)... and beyond that, being a demiplane/other layer, the distance between places below doesn't have to map to that above. This ties to the idea that Belashyrra has somehow ended up below Xen'drik. It's not that he walked the same distance you'd walk from Khorvaire to Xen'drik; it's that he took a different path.
With that said, there's also the point that IMO, the 'True Khyber' doesn't start the minute you set foot underground. There's a lot of normal caves and tunnels that are simply part of the outer skin of Eberron, if you will; not every tunnel you go down will even reach Khyber.
Anyhow, excellent post.
I think that the planes themselves are actually the cosmic dragons mentioned in legend. They're so vast and all-encompassing that we mortals are a mere ripple in their consiousness. Most planes seem rather simple, really: Fernia is all about heat and fire, Dal Quor is about dream and thought. Why is our world so diverse and important? Because of the conflict between the Three Progenitors. That conflict gave rise to a reality that is a thousand times more complicated than any other.
But although the Progenitors have mixed and blended, there are still places where the influence of one outweighs that of another. The deeper into the ground you go, the deeper into Khyber and the further from Eberron's influence you are. Things are going to stop being "normal". As Keith said, you are going to find wild and terrifying things. Now, where the influence of Eberron begins to fade and Khyber takes over varys a lot: the Labyrinth in the Demon Wastes practically touches the surface.
But in any event, Khyber itself is bound. And it is a reality unto itsself. It is therefore much easier to bind things in Khyber (and khyber dragonshards). All the Gatekeeper Seals do is reinforce what is already there, and ensure that unnatural entities like the daelkyr stay away from the natural world.