Counterfeiting a Mark

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

Shiftkitty

Aug 01, 2009 16:30:37
Is it possible, by any stretch of the imagination, to forge a Dragonmark? We didn't see anything that said they couldn't be faked, but I want to make sure I have all of the bases covered. Even if it's highly unconventional, like killing someone with the mark we need and grafting his mark onto some unlucky sucker in the group, is it possible at all?
#2

soyim

Aug 01, 2009 19:24:54
Interesting question: multiple answers.

Is it possible to Counterfeit the appearance of a mark? Of course, a high enough bluff check with a disguise kit would be enough to counterfeit the mark for a cursory glance or with some work and exotic materials even make a tattoo of it.

Is it possible to Counterfeit the abilities of a mark? A little more difficult- but not impossible. Player Characters are better than everyone else around them: nobody should be able to say "Oh- he can only teleport 25ft! A marked scion of Orion can teleport 30!". Especially when you consider that in previous editions of Eberron the marks came in a variety of strengths. As long as you could theoretically perform the ability of the mark: it should not be difficult to fake having it from a power standpoint (again with a successful bluff check).

Is it possible to Counterfeit the Rituals of a Mark? At a glance: yes. The mark rituals are no different than normal.

So my answer: Yes. You can Counterfeit a mark that would fool most of the people all of the time. Taking Ritual Caster, A high Bluff, and powers that fit in with that marks "theme" and any other feats that work with it. (Such as Linguist, Restful Healing, Alchemist etc.) The difficult part wouldn't be fooling people who have the mark, but fooling the people who run the houses. You might be able to duplicate many of the abilities, or even all of them, but you still can't activate Dragonmark specific items: and that would probably come up eventually.

It would spawn an interesting character though: a person desperate to get into a Dragonmark house (for many possible reasons) to the point where they dedicate their entire existence into counterfeiting the abilities of those people: possibly even convincing themselves that they have the mark.
#3

RedRider

Aug 01, 2009 19:26:18
There was some minor uproar a while ago about a Denieth Heir who had "Tatooed" a dragonmark on himself to boost his prospects within the house. I'm not sure where he shows up.

Of course, a dragonmark is not something that can be faked with mundane tatoos, but fitting interpretation would be that it was faked with a magical ritual made specifically to create the appearance of false dragonmarks.

As to where one ould go for such things, The Tyrants (The Dopplegangsters of Sharn) have expertise in changing people's appearance, so they may have developed a ritual for this purpose.
The large scale cloak and dagger organisations may also be capable of such a ritual, such as The Chamber, The Lords of Dust and possibly The Trust.

(In terms of fluff, I'd say the result of such a ritual would be a mark that shimmers like the real thing, but can be identified with a Perception or Arcana check that beats the Ritual Skill role made to perform the ritual.)
#4

valgoth_dup

Aug 01, 2009 19:48:45
I agree with RedRider, mechanics-wise. There's a "Conceal Dragonmark" ritual... add a few levels to that (since it would be much more difficult to imitate a dragonmark than conceal it) and straight flip the ritual. Make it cost significantly more (because it would be highly, HIGHLY illegal for obvious reasons). Call it "Forge Dragonmark" and you're done.
#5

Shiftkitty

Aug 01, 2009 21:27:35
The reason for the counterfeit mark isn't to "join" the House so much as it is to get into places that are more or less exclusive to the House. Kind of like counterfeiting an employee access badge. The character, a Level 1 Artificer of promising talent but with a big distaste for the whole "House" thing in general, just needs to get into some moderately sensitive places associated with House Cannith to look for and copy, or pilfer, some documents. (He's a half-elf, but wears his hair long to cover his ears, feeling that pure humans have it easier.)
#6

nthdegree256

Aug 01, 2009 23:09:36
Depending on the level of scrutiny, it's definitely possible to fake.

Spoilers for Keith Baker's The Dreaming Dark trilogy
Lei's Mark of Making is a fake; her talent as an artificer was enough to supply the power, and, coupled with some careful work by her "parents," the end result was a sufficiently realistic forgery to fool everyone, Lei included.
#7

LordMorbien

Aug 02, 2009 3:34:04
Just having a convincing dragonmark is probably not going to give easy access to more sensitive areas of a House facility. Any guards in place know who has access to those areas; a dragonmark heir they've never seen before is going to raise suspicion at the very least. Not to say it wouldn't make for an interesting caper if he could pull it off; but I think he'd also need convincing papers identifying him as a member of the House, visiting from another enclave, which involves fooling more improtant House members as well. There would be some inquiries, but the character could have a limited time frame in which to achieve his goals before his deception is discovered - - assuming all goes well, of course.
#8

Shiftkitty

Aug 02, 2009 10:15:53
So it sounds like it could be done with some connections, good rolls and a lot of roleplaying. Cool! My kind of session! Thanks!
#9

blackmage88

Aug 02, 2009 23:01:48
There was some minor uproar a while ago about a Denieth Heir who had "Tatooed" a dragonmark on himself to boost his prospects within the house. I'm not sure where he shows up.

He showed up in the 'Mournland Express' article from Expeditionary Dispatches. According to the article, he met the people in charge of the Express while adventuring in an effort to force his family's mark to manifest. It never did, so he faked one. While the article never mentions how he went about doing this, it does say that one of the reasons he stays with the Express is to avoid Deneith enclaves and people who might be able to examine his fake mark more closely. One of the hooks was about someone blackmailing him about it.
#10

Sarlax

Aug 03, 2009 1:43:49
In 3.5, it was possible but difficult. Using Disguise or Arcane Mark + Forgery to duplicate marks incurred a -10 penalty to the checks, with the idea that the unique magic of dragonmarks makes them difficult to fake. It's an easy port to 4E. You can just keep the -10 penalties to associated skills.
#11

Madfox11

Aug 03, 2009 6:45:13
If you need to the mark to get into some place, wouldn't it be easier to just fake an ID and access papers? Remember, you do not need a mark to be a member of a house. In fact, the ECG mentions that while a member with a mark is automatically called Sir or Lady, the presence of a mark does not say anything what so ever about the actual rank of the person (although certain jobs are out of the question without a mark). Fake papers are easier to get, and more difficult to pierce then the existence of a mark.
#12

valgoth_dup

Aug 04, 2009 11:50:19
It seems that ShiftyKitty's question isn't how to get into Meric D'Cannith's secret lab. Sounds to me like her artificer wants to get into places where flashing a Cannith dragonmark would more than suffice for a speedy entry. Very little scrutiny involved.

Now, if she happens to reveal that thing around some mid- to high-level Canniths, I'd expect them to take one look at her and give her the ol', "Why don't you come with me" treatment. But, at level 1, I doubt that's the intent... just make it clear that this probably won't fool someone familiar with the higher-up house members.
#13

Madfox11

Aug 06, 2009 5:13:16
It seems that ShiftyKitty's question isn't how to get into Meric D'Cannith's secret lab. Sounds to me like her artificer wants to get into places where flashing a Cannith dragonmark would more than suffice for a speedy entry. Very little scrutiny involved.

Yes, but I was questioning the reasoning behind that question. As far as I can see, simply having a dragonmark is not going to make it easier or more difficult to enter a particular location. Having a mark does not guarantee you are a member of the house (although it is likely), let alone, a member with the right clearence. In those areas that are limited to members of the House, you still need those papers to proof you are a member. At best, having that mark is going to make it easier to bluff of intimidate your way past not having those papers. I know it is not exactly the answer to the OP's question, but dealing with forged papers is a LOT easier then contemplating how you forge a dragonmark both for the DM and the PC. After all, if there is no need to forge a mark (except to earn respect, or to make it easier to gain rank in a house you are already a member off), you do not need to spend much time on what exactly is required to forge a mark.
#14

Sarlax

Aug 06, 2009 15:45:35
Having a mark does not guarantee you are a member of the house (although it is likely), let alone, a member with the right clearence.

Exactly right. I think that it's something like half of all house members have a mark (I don't recall exactly). ECG 208 notes that a dragonmarked member of Cannith might end up at the bottom of a forge while an unmarked heir rises to the heights of power.

It makes sense too. If it's about the same number of people who have the mark in the family as don't, people are going to have learned to respect either type of family member. If you have a mark, maybe your older brother doesn't, or you mother does, but your father doesn't.

It's also important to remember that the marks make you good at a job, not at social climbing. I'd bet that most marked members of a family end up as part of the working middle of the family. If you have the Mark of Sentinel, you don't have time for the politicking to be the big boss, but you're also too good at what you do to end up at the bottom of the barrel.

Anyway, a mark certainly isn't going to be a go-anywhere, do-anything pass. Officials in important places probably won't let someone bluster in somewhere just for being marked, even if that means they get to have the honorary title of lord or lady. It might be helpful for someone trying to impress people in a small town, though.
#15

valgoth_dup

Aug 06, 2009 15:56:58
As far as I can see, simply having a dragonmark is not going to make it easier or more difficult to enter a particular location.

See, I would disagree. Having a dragonmark, combined with the right attitude, can easily paint you as the creme de la creme of a dragonmarked house... someone important. For a real world comparison, it'd be like trying to get into a trendy LA nightclub alone... and then trying to get in with Paris Hilton beside you. Obviously you need some other things, but the mark can seal the deal in many cases. For another example... in one of the Beverly Hills Cop movies, Axel walks into an open warehouse, flashes a badge, and starts ordering people around, claiming he's from the DEA and they'd better do what he says because the warehouse is out of complaince (which he proved by just walking in) and that there would be hell to pay with the big boss if he had to call back to the home office. Sure, the ruse wouldn't have stood a chance if he were dealing with higher ups in the criminal organization, but a step or two down the ladder and you've have people just not wanting to get in trouble.

In other words, while just POSSESSING a dragonmark wouldn't get you anywhere, possessing one AND a certain set a skills (bluff, of course... also intimidate and diplomacy) can be a powerful tool.
#16

Madfox11

Aug 07, 2009 5:00:58
That is what I said: it MIGHT give you a bonus on the Bluff or Intimidate check you are going to need to explain the lack of papers or to make sure security is going to pay less attention to them. Still, I don't think it is going to help much unless it is really all about access to areas with the lowest security clearences. If that is the case though, getting the right forged papers is still easier.

Makes me wonder what the punishment for counterfeiting a mark is... is it worse or less compared to forged papers?
#17

Shiftkitty

Aug 07, 2009 9:36:33
Well, as our session has run, "our little Artificer friend" found getting in a lot easier than getting out. He didn't need the high-security areas (probably will later in the game), just some low-level access and a lot of sneaking around to get into the mid-level stuff where he needed to be. Slamming a drawer shut on a finger is a good way to let guards know where you are, however, and the escape was beyond artless. Now he's hiding back in lower Dura, thinking he just has to lie low a few days until things blow over and he can deliver his prize to his employers.

But hey, this is Eberron...
#18

androkguz

Aug 08, 2009 22:49:56
Makes me wonder what the punishment for counterfeiting a mark is... is it worse or less compared to forged papers?

It would depend on the house humor (and what you've done). The Ghallanda halflings wouldn't do much to a guy that's trying to sneak hear a private conversation, but stealing a Cannith artifact or a Tharashk cargo of dragonshards would probably cost much much more than whatever punishment there is for forging papers.
#19

Sarlax

Aug 08, 2009 23:13:55
Makes me wonder what the punishment for counterfeiting a mark is... is it worse or less compared to forged papers?

I'm sure it's less severe. A mark doesn't automatically grant status in the House. It doesn't even grant membership in the House. A human with no blood connection to Vadalis can manifest the Mark of Handling, for instance. Simply having the right tattoo doesn't mean anything to the Houses, especially since they've surely been dealing with these kind of simple scams for thousands of years. The consequence of forging a mark is minor, so the punishment probably isn't severe.

Now the papers are a big deal. First, if you're forging paperwork, you are already deeply irritating and embarrassing one house (Sivis). Because Sivis is the best, and because they're been notarizing documents for centuries, they've surely lobbied for harsh laws on forgery, as it would further deter the crime (and support their monopoly).

Second, that which matters most in Khorvaire is who your king is, not who your father is. If you're forging identity papers, you're tampering with documents that establish your national identity. In Eberron, it's must worse to be from Thrane but having papers that say you're Brelish than it is to be a a human wearing a tattoo that duplicates someone else's birthmark.
#20

durskut

Aug 10, 2009 13:31:41
Sarlax, while I agree with you that possessing a forged dragonmark probably isn't a big offense in itself (what you do, or attempt to do with it is), I have to point out this error:

A human with no blood connection to Vadalis can manifest the Mark of Handling, for instance.

The ONLY exception to the "mark is in your blood" rule is in 4e if a PC takes the feat. If anyone other than a PC manifests a Mark of Handling, then somewhere (even if they don't know about it) in their lineage was a Vadalis.