Crime and punishment in Sharn. - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Crime and punishment in Sharn.

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
D-Mar
May 05, 2010 12:31:20 My party just chose to return to Sharn as they had just completed one story arc and were working on starting another. Seemed like the best place to rest and recharge and shop and get ready for the next story arc.

Now they had forgotten the last time they were in Sharn, they had to fight off a croup of city guards that wanted to arrest one of their party. The initial interchange went like this:

This memeber of the party had written in his back story that he dodged the draft in breland during The Last War and subsisted on a life of petty crime during the war. He wrote that he had broken out of several prisions all around Breland and went right back to his life of petty crimes.

Now it turns out when confronted with the warrant for his arrest the party played it cool relying on that characters false identity to get him out of being arrested. Unfortunately another player blurted out the criminal characters true identity, fingering him in front of the guards.

Now I was happy to play the guards dumb and beleive his false Identity and let him pass, but after being identified, I felt the guards would definatley want to make an arrest. At the time they were pretty low level so the gaurds were a pretty tough fight.

They got out of the scrape and had to leave sharn quickly.

Skip forward through a year of excellent swashbuckling ebberonic adventure and a completed story arc, the group decides to go back to sharn. They teleport into Sharn forgetting that they are "Wanted Men" there. Since they didn't choose a specific location in sharn to teleport to I ruled that they teleport in on the house orien teleport pad. The Hand of Orien asks to see their Identification and tries to arrest them. Being much more powerfull now they easily escape and run off into sharn. Except one. The character that had initially fingered the criminal now surrendered to the hand of orien.

To further complicate matters that character has an abberant dragon mark which is soon discovered. Now there are no official writing on crime and punishment that I know of, here is what I am assuming for my campaign:

1. there will be a trial. After all breland is the most "Metropolitan" and benevolent state in Galifar they must have a system of justice and not just an assignement of punishment.

2 If found guilty the sentence would be 1-2 years in prison. After all assulting guards, resisting arrest, making a public disturbance, endangering public saftey and harboring a fugitive are severe crimes, yet don't warrant mutilation or death.

3 The fact that she has an abberant mark will go very badly for her. Her captors are already assuming she is part of House Tarkanan, even though she isn't and the judge or adjuticator will be prejudiced against here earning her an even longer sentence in the event that she is found guilty.

4. Her current captors and the people gaurding the prision if she is sent there will be about level 7 even thought the average street gaurd, whom she surrenderred to is only about 3.

Let em know what you think. Or if you have any other Ideas.
#2
bobiago
May 05, 2010 16:21:28 I wonder if the abberant mark is a crime in municipal law. Sounds like a thing like that would be handled by the Twelve, which is much worse for the PC.

How about this?

The official at Orien who handed them over to the Sharn guard is in big trouble. After all, this is a person who needs to be excoriated, not just stuck in jail for disturbing the peace. The Twelve will want the PC, who is now inconveniently in the hands of the Sharn Watch under (relatively) elite guard.

There will be a plot to bust her out, orchestrated by the Twelve. They want the PC's to do it, so they are not implicated, so they help behind the scenes.

Then there is a set-up, where they plan to grab the PC and flay the dragonmark from her skin in a ritual which may or may not kill her.

The PC's get the chance to bust her out, foil the machinations of the Twelve and escape. However, they have the Twelve as enemies for the rest of the campaign. If you are not comfortable with them being the enemies of the whole organization, then make the bad guy an overly zealous official within the Twelve, who is on probation for his harsh tactics, etc...

You can also add a twist by having Tarkannan in the mix - traditionally bad guys, they will want the PC to join them, so they end up helping to foil the plot of the Twelve.

End it with her faking her own death.
#3
D-Mar
May 05, 2010 16:29:02 Thanks for the Ideas.

I thought excoriation was for people who are members of a house. She isn't.

The twelve probably do want her out of the way so they would have some designs on how to acheive that.

Having House Tarkanan fight to free her from the twelve is verry eberronic. I like that alot.
#4
Madfox11
May 06, 2010 4:49:05 Actually, aberrant dragonmarks are not officially, let alone actively, persecuited. It might be possible a corrupt guard would inform some of the more fanatic Dragonmarked heirs and arrange an accident, neither the government of Breland nor the Twelfe would condone such actions(assuming it becomes public, they would not care otherwise).

Why would the Twelve be interested in a aberrant mark? Or are we talking about something weirder then from the books, such as for example, somebody activing their marks with powers like the FR spellscarred ones? Otherwise it is an aberrant mark like anybody else. If they really cared that much, House Tarkanan would face active persecution, which it doesn't even though it does not hides it affination with aberrant marks and it is a public secret it is a group of assassins.

Having said that, why would you want to convict a powerful adventurer to prison? Do you have any idea how rediculously expensive a prison would need to be that could keep a powerful adventurer locked up? You would almost be forced to send him of to Darkhold, but that seems a bit over the top for resisting arrest and petty crimes. Did he kill the guards or were they knocked unconscious? If they were knocked unconscious, just get some of that precious gold all adventurers have, or better yet, let them use their skills for the safety of Breland or Sharn. Aren't there any dangerous monsters in the nearby woods? No cultists? What about false idols that needs removal? Eberron is a dangerous world, and why not use those adrelanine junkies called adventurers for something usefull? Especially one who has proven to regret his actions of the past by surrendering?
#5
D-Mar
May 06, 2010 12:14:28 Thanks for replying and I see your point about the officials wanting to use the adventurers instead of imprisioning them. But I have to disagree about people with abberant marks being persecuted. It is not the official position of the government, no. But in the novels I have read the people with abberant marks are the lowest of the low. They are almost always twisted near insane street types. I can see how the watchmen would hassle them to get off their beat at the very least.
#6
Madfox11
May 07, 2010 4:12:46 There is a difference between being hassled by the local city watch and being treated as the lowest of the lowest by common citizens (mostly out of fear) on one side and on the other being actively persecuited by government and Dragonmarked houses on the other. The first is certainly true, but that does not mean the Twelve or the Breland government has any particular interest in a random adventurer with a mark (or at least not due to the character's mark). It just seems unlikely to me that the adventurer is going to get a bigger punishment because of the mark.
#7
DoctorBadWolf
May 07, 2010 16:16:11 I don't see the Sharn government having much problem imprisoning PCs that aren't epic level, honestly.

Particularly if they had the help of, say House K in the building of thier prisons.
Even if not, certainly magewrights can fortify cells, etc.

Stripped of any magical possessions, in cells warded against teleportation, elemental damage, etc, what exactly are the PCs going to do?

At level 15, there isn't much the PCs can do that other people in the world, particularly the powerful, or those in the pay of the powerful, can't do themselves, or at least counter act.
#8
Hellcow
May 07, 2010 18:11:44 If you REALLY need to keep someone imprisoned, take a page from Dreadhold and petrify them. It's not going to be a common thing, but you could certainly add a character to the Blackened Book who can do it. I could actually see making it a ritual - so they can't petrify you in the middle of a fight, but if they can catch you and hold you for one hour - long enough to perform the ritual - they've got you frozen until someone can rescue you.

Essentially, the question is the purpose of incarcation - which after all places an expense on the government. If it's a matter of protecting the innocent from the PC, then petrification is a good answer (assuming that execution isn't an option). If it's actually a hope of rehabilitation, then you might consider what they'll do to lean in that direction. A Silver Flame abbess coming to talk to the person about the error of their ways? A Mark of Justice to prevent them from causing trouble?

With all that said, the original Sharn: City of Towers book has an entire section on Law & Order. I'll include one quote here:
Is It Fun?Before bringing in the law, the DM should think about the situation. Could this happen in an exciting movie? A good book? Will the players have fun? Or is it simply going to slow things down, spoil the planned adventure, or otherwise ruin the fun for everyone involved?
As long as the situation makes a good story, it’s worth doing. In a battle with the Aurum, dealing with corrupt guards and magistrates may be a central part of the story. Otherwise, the DM may want to give the party a break, describing how they manage to slip away just as the Watch arrives to investigate.

The chapter also discusses how the Watch in Sharn is notoriously corrupt - emphasizing that this is one reason the PCs are needed in the city. Fighting the watch SHOULD be a serious business... not because a typical watch patrol should have the power to overcome adventurers, but because if PCs slaughter a watch patrol, they brand themselves enemies of the government and forces like the Blackened Book, the Redcloaks, and the Citadel may come in. Players are supposed to be the bad**** here... but the point is that sometimes it's non-combat influence that makes someone dangerous, not their combat power. You may be able to beat six guardsmen blindfolded - but can you take on the King's Citadel?

With that in mind, what I'd personally have done with the draft-dodger would have been to have the guard captain shake him down for some gold as opposed to trying for an immediate arrest. This establishes that we're in Sharn; sets the tone that the Watch isn't around to help you; and gives them a chance to quickly resolve the scene without violence.

Looking to Orien, they are not in any way empowered to enforce the law. They are not bound to Breland. Your status as a draft dodger isn't any business of the Orien Hand. Now, I could see Breland paying Orien to have a "No-port" list... but I'd think that would be reserved for SERIOUS criminals, not draft dodgers (of which there are surely many). Is this guy actually seen as a threat to the state, someone who might do something like crash the Glass Tower? Or is he just seen as a burglar? Again, Oriens' a business... it's the sort of thing where I'd see him saying "Hmm, there seems to be some... irregularity with your papers, sir. Perhaps 10 platinum dragons would smooth things over."

Now, on Aberrant dragonmarks: looking to the common populace, they creep people out. People are superstitious. They are told that aberrants can give people the evil eye, that they are mad, that they are sick. Many people don't LIKE aberrants. But having an aberrant mark is not a crime. In the novel City of Towers the Tarkanans are walking around on the street without fear of the guard arresting them. Now, in looking at the background of one of the Tarkanans, CoT highlights how one of the Tarkanans was essentially driven from his home village after an accidental death; but this is the key. It's individual experience, not a general policy. A place like Sharn is actually the best place for them, because there's a LOT of strange things in Sharn (just look at Malleon's Gate) and the Watch is corrupt. Certainly, they are best off in Lower Sharn, but their official headquarters is in Dragon Towers in Middle Central - where they are essentially telling the world "That's right, we've got aberrant marks. Deal with it." The houses don't like them, but they are still citizens of the Five Nations and not criminals because of their marks.

If you look to The Son of Khyber, Fileon clearly has a reputation with the locals - they know to stay out of his way. And again, he's not worried about being arrested.

Now, many in the HOUSES hate aberrants. Some will even kill or abuse them. But look to The Son of Khyber again, and you'll see that the Sentinel Marshal described as hunting and killing aberrants is something that Thorn finds repulsive. He gets away with it because the Watch doesn't care about what happens to aberrants, but not because it's his job. So again, people don't LIKE aberrants. They are treated with fear and suspicion. But it's not illegal to have a mark.

For me, it comes back to that key question: Is it fun? You could say that Orien won't teleport the PC because he's an aberrant. But is that fun for you or the player? Or is it more interesting to come up with something slyer. Most Oriens just sneer at you or overcharge you... and then you get the one who sends you to a place other than the promised destination... an abandoned one-way circle in the Mournland, trusting that the horrors there will take care of you, aberrant scum. Now that becomes the adventure!

#9
Hellcow
May 07, 2010 18:14:58 Just to reiterate, Sharn: City of Towers has a whole section on crimes and justice, including trials and common punishments. So if you can get ahold of that, a lot of it will be useful whether you're playing 4E or 3.5. One more quote directly bearing on your scene:

Long-term incarceration is rarely used as a form of punishment in Breland. Prisons are primarily used as holding cells, keeping criminals contained until a case can go to trial and a ﬁnal punishment can be decreed. If a prisoner is deemed too dangerous to be allowed to roam free, she is usually executed; Breland has just emerged from a century of war, and death is a reality of the world. There is only one situation in which an extended prison sentence would be warranted: If the prisoner cannot be allowed to go free and if his death would have major repercussions.

#10
DoctorBadWolf
May 10, 2010 15:26:03 Wow. That's a lot of info. Fantastic, sir!

I'll be sharing your words with my current group that's running eberron.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 D-Mar May 05, 2010 12:31:20	My party just chose to return to Sharn as they had just completed one story arc and were working on starting another. Seemed like the best place to rest and recharge and shop and get ready for the next story arc. Now they had forgotten the last time they were in Sharn, they had to fight off a croup of city guards that wanted to arrest one of their party. The initial interchange went like this: This memeber of the party had written in his back story that he dodged the draft in breland during The Last War and subsisted on a life of petty crime during the war. He wrote that he had broken out of several prisions all around Breland and went right back to his life of petty crimes. Now it turns out when confronted with the warrant for his arrest the party played it cool relying on that characters false identity to get him out of being arrested. Unfortunately another player blurted out the criminal characters true identity, fingering him in front of the guards. Now I was happy to play the guards dumb and beleive his false Identity and let him pass, but after being identified, I felt the guards would definatley want to make an arrest. At the time they were pretty low level so the gaurds were a pretty tough fight. They got out of the scrape and had to leave sharn quickly. Skip forward through a year of excellent swashbuckling ebberonic adventure and a completed story arc, the group decides to go back to sharn. They teleport into Sharn forgetting that they are "Wanted Men" there. Since they didn't choose a specific location in sharn to teleport to I ruled that they teleport in on the house orien teleport pad. The Hand of Orien asks to see their Identification and tries to arrest them. Being much more powerfull now they easily escape and run off into sharn. Except one. The character that had initially fingered the criminal now surrendered to the hand of orien. To further complicate matters that character has an abberant dragon mark which is soon discovered. Now there are no official writing on crime and punishment that I know of, here is what I am assuming for my campaign: 1. there will be a trial. After all breland is the most "Metropolitan" and benevolent state in Galifar they must have a system of justice and not just an assignement of punishment. 2 If found guilty the sentence would be 1-2 years in prison. After all assulting guards, resisting arrest, making a public disturbance, endangering public saftey and harboring a fugitive are severe crimes, yet don't warrant mutilation or death. 3 The fact that she has an abberant mark will go very badly for her. Her captors are already assuming she is part of House Tarkanan, even though she isn't and the judge or adjuticator will be prejudiced against here earning her an even longer sentence in the event that she is found guilty. 4. Her current captors and the people gaurding the prision if she is sent there will be about level 7 even thought the average street gaurd, whom she surrenderred to is only about 3. Let em know what you think. Or if you have any other Ideas.
#2 bobiago May 05, 2010 16:21:28	I wonder if the abberant mark is a crime in municipal law. Sounds like a thing like that would be handled by the Twelve, which is much worse for the PC. How about this? The official at Orien who handed them over to the Sharn guard is in big trouble. After all, this is a person who needs to be excoriated, not just stuck in jail for disturbing the peace. The Twelve will want the PC, who is now inconveniently in the hands of the Sharn Watch under (relatively) elite guard. There will be a plot to bust her out, orchestrated by the Twelve. They want the PC's to do it, so they are not implicated, so they help behind the scenes. Then there is a set-up, where they plan to grab the PC and flay the dragonmark from her skin in a ritual which may or may not kill her. The PC's get the chance to bust her out, foil the machinations of the Twelve and escape. However, they have the Twelve as enemies for the rest of the campaign. If you are not comfortable with them being the enemies of the whole organization, then make the bad guy an overly zealous official within the Twelve, who is on probation for his harsh tactics, etc... You can also add a twist by having Tarkannan in the mix - traditionally bad guys, they will want the PC to join them, so they end up helping to foil the plot of the Twelve. End it with her faking her own death.
#3 D-Mar May 05, 2010 16:29:02	Thanks for the Ideas. I thought excoriation was for people who are members of a house. She isn't. The twelve probably do want her out of the way so they would have some designs on how to acheive that. Having House Tarkanan fight to free her from the twelve is verry eberronic. I like that alot.
#4 Madfox11 May 06, 2010 4:49:05	Actually, aberrant dragonmarks are not officially, let alone actively, persecuited. It might be possible a corrupt guard would inform some of the more fanatic Dragonmarked heirs and arrange an accident, neither the government of Breland nor the Twelfe would condone such actions(assuming it becomes public, they would not care otherwise). Why would the Twelve be interested in a aberrant mark? Or are we talking about something weirder then from the books, such as for example, somebody activing their marks with powers like the FR spellscarred ones? Otherwise it is an aberrant mark like anybody else. If they really cared that much, House Tarkanan would face active persecution, which it doesn't even though it does not hides it affination with aberrant marks and it is a public secret it is a group of assassins. Having said that, why would you want to convict a powerful adventurer to prison? Do you have any idea how rediculously expensive a prison would need to be that could keep a powerful adventurer locked up? You would almost be forced to send him of to Darkhold, but that seems a bit over the top for resisting arrest and petty crimes. Did he kill the guards or were they knocked unconscious? If they were knocked unconscious, just get some of that precious gold all adventurers have, or better yet, let them use their skills for the safety of Breland or Sharn. Aren't there any dangerous monsters in the nearby woods? No cultists? What about false idols that needs removal? Eberron is a dangerous world, and why not use those adrelanine junkies called adventurers for something usefull? Especially one who has proven to regret his actions of the past by surrendering?
#5 D-Mar May 06, 2010 12:14:28	Thanks for replying and I see your point about the officials wanting to use the adventurers instead of imprisioning them. But I have to disagree about people with abberant marks being persecuted. It is not the official position of the government, no. But in the novels I have read the people with abberant marks are the lowest of the low. They are almost always twisted near insane street types. I can see how the watchmen would hassle them to get off their beat at the very least.
#6 Madfox11 May 07, 2010 4:12:46	There is a difference between being hassled by the local city watch and being treated as the lowest of the lowest by common citizens (mostly out of fear) on one side and on the other being actively persecuited by government and Dragonmarked houses on the other. The first is certainly true, but that does not mean the Twelve or the Breland government has any particular interest in a random adventurer with a mark (or at least not due to the character's mark). It just seems unlikely to me that the adventurer is going to get a bigger punishment because of the mark.
#7 DoctorBadWolf May 07, 2010 16:16:11	I don't see the Sharn government having much problem imprisoning PCs that aren't epic level, honestly. Particularly if they had the help of, say House K in the building of thier prisons. Even if not, certainly magewrights can fortify cells, etc. Stripped of any magical possessions, in cells warded against teleportation, elemental damage, etc, what exactly are the PCs going to do? At level 15, there isn't much the PCs can do that other people in the world, particularly the powerful, or those in the pay of the powerful, can't do themselves, or at least counter act.
#8 Hellcow May 07, 2010 18:11:44	If you REALLY need to keep someone imprisoned, take a page from Dreadhold and petrify them. It's not going to be a common thing, but you could certainly add a character to the Blackened Book who can do it. I could actually see making it a ritual - so they can't petrify you in the middle of a fight, but if they can catch you and hold you for one hour - long enough to perform the ritual - they've got you frozen until someone can rescue you. Essentially, the question is the purpose of incarcation - which after all places an expense on the government. If it's a matter of protecting the innocent from the PC, then petrification is a good answer (assuming that execution isn't an option). If it's actually a hope of rehabilitation, then you might consider what they'll do to lean in that direction. A Silver Flame abbess coming to talk to the person about the error of their ways? A Mark of Justice to prevent them from causing trouble? With all that said, the original Sharn: City of Towers book has an entire section on Law & Order. I'll include one quote here: Is It Fun?Before bringing in the law, the DM should think about the situation. Could this happen in an exciting movie? A good book? Will the players have fun? Or is it simply going to slow things down, spoil the planned adventure, or otherwise ruin the fun for everyone involved? As long as the situation makes a good story, it’s worth doing. In a battle with the Aurum, dealing with corrupt guards and magistrates may be a central part of the story. Otherwise, the DM may want to give the party a break, describing how they manage to slip away just as the Watch arrives to investigate. The chapter also discusses how the Watch in Sharn is notoriously corrupt - emphasizing that this is one reason the PCs are needed in the city. Fighting the watch SHOULD be a serious business... not because a typical watch patrol should have the power to overcome adventurers, but because if PCs slaughter a watch patrol, they brand themselves enemies of the government and forces like the Blackened Book, the Redcloaks, and the Citadel may come in. Players are supposed to be the bad**** here... but the point is that sometimes it's non-combat influence that makes someone dangerous, not their combat power. You may be able to beat six guardsmen blindfolded - but can you take on the King's Citadel? With that in mind, what I'd personally have done with the draft-dodger would have been to have the guard captain shake him down for some gold as opposed to trying for an immediate arrest. This establishes that we're in Sharn; sets the tone that the Watch isn't around to help you; and gives them a chance to quickly resolve the scene without violence. Looking to Orien, they are not in any way empowered to enforce the law. They are not bound to Breland. Your status as a draft dodger isn't any business of the Orien Hand. Now, I could see Breland paying Orien to have a "No-port" list... but I'd think that would be reserved for SERIOUS criminals, not draft dodgers (of which there are surely many). Is this guy actually seen as a threat to the state, someone who might do something like crash the Glass Tower? Or is he just seen as a burglar? Again, Oriens' a business... it's the sort of thing where I'd see him saying "Hmm, there seems to be some... irregularity with your papers, sir. Perhaps 10 platinum dragons would smooth things over." Now, on Aberrant dragonmarks: looking to the common populace, they creep people out. People are superstitious. They are told that aberrants can give people the evil eye, that they are mad, that they are sick. Many people don't LIKE aberrants. But having an aberrant mark is not a crime. In the novel City of Towers the Tarkanans are walking around on the street without fear of the guard arresting them. Now, in looking at the background of one of the Tarkanans, CoT highlights how one of the Tarkanans was essentially driven from his home village after an accidental death; but this is the key. It's individual experience, not a general policy. A place like Sharn is actually the best place for them, because there's a LOT of strange things in Sharn (just look at Malleon's Gate) and the Watch is corrupt. Certainly, they are best off in Lower Sharn, but their official headquarters is in Dragon Towers in Middle Central - where they are essentially telling the world "That's right, we've got aberrant marks. Deal with it." The houses don't like them, but they are still citizens of the Five Nations and not criminals because of their marks. If you look to The Son of Khyber, Fileon clearly has a reputation with the locals - they know to stay out of his way. And again, he's not worried about being arrested. Now, many in the HOUSES hate aberrants. Some will even kill or abuse them. But look to The Son of Khyber again, and you'll see that the Sentinel Marshal described as hunting and killing aberrants is something that Thorn finds repulsive. He gets away with it because the Watch doesn't care about what happens to aberrants, but not because it's his job. So again, people don't LIKE aberrants. They are treated with fear and suspicion. But it's not illegal to have a mark. For me, it comes back to that key question: Is it fun? You could say that Orien won't teleport the PC because he's an aberrant. But is that fun for you or the player? Or is it more interesting to come up with something slyer. Most Oriens just sneer at you or overcharge you... and then you get the one who sends you to a place other than the promised destination... an abandoned one-way circle in the Mournland, trusting that the horrors there will take care of you, aberrant scum. Now that becomes the adventure!
#9 Hellcow May 07, 2010 18:14:58	Just to reiterate, Sharn: City of Towers has a whole section on crimes and justice, including trials and common punishments. So if you can get ahold of that, a lot of it will be useful whether you're playing 4E or 3.5. One more quote directly bearing on your scene: Long-term incarceration is rarely used as a form of punishment in Breland. Prisons are primarily used as holding cells, keeping criminals contained until a case can go to trial and a ﬁnal punishment can be decreed. If a prisoner is deemed too dangerous to be allowed to roam free, she is usually executed; Breland has just emerged from a century of war, and death is a reality of the world. There is only one situation in which an extended prison sentence would be warranted: If the prisoner cannot be allowed to go free and if his death would have major repercussions.
#10 DoctorBadWolf May 10, 2010 15:26:03	Wow. That's a lot of info. Fantastic, sir! I'll be sharing your words with my current group that's running eberron.