Cyre as the "Jack of All Trades" - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Cyre as the "Jack of All Trades"

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Ogiwan
Jun 29, 2012 13:47:45 So, we have discussed, in other threads, about how Cyre's "strength" was that they had the culture of Galifar. Essentially, all the things that are strengths of the other countries were once the strength of Galifar, and thus, of Cyre.

Now, I'm wondering if the true characterization of Cyre is as a "Jack of all trades." Or, more specifically, second-best at everything. Cyre may not have had as many officers trained in logistics, or the various levels (tactical, operational, strategic) thinking, because Rekkenmark was where that was taught (and thus, Karrnath would have the edge in those sorts of officers), but....Cyre would be number two.

Sure, Breland has the King's Citadel. But, the second-most-effective intelligence service? The Cyrean service.

Wizards? The Arcane Congress, and Aundair, would have the largest share, but Cyre would have the second largest.

You can apply this thinking to all facets of the war, but the gist of it remains the same. Cyre didn't have a particular strength that it could use, aside from its wealth.

Discuss.
#2
mutedfaithe
Jun 29, 2012 15:04:42 I agree with the assertion that Cyre would be a jack of all trades. As you say, Breland has the Citadel, Karrnath has Rekkenmark, Aundair has the Arcane Congress, and Thrane has Flame Keep. Prior to the war, every nation would see attending their countries institute of higher learning as a matter of national pride. But Cyre didn't have one. So they would feel free to go wherever. So they would have more Rekkenmark officers then Aundair, more clerics then Karrnath, more Citadel agents then Thrane, and more wizards then Breland. Instead of most of their people going to one instituition, their populace would therefore be much more well rounded. Also, at the beginning of the war, some would have seen the Queen of Cyre as the rightful heir to the throne, leading to defections to the Cyre side, furthering expanding their skill base.

I think there is one place where Cyre was the best, though. Outsourcing. Cyre hired more mercenaries then any other nation.
#3
Orkbard
Jun 29, 2012 16:05:12
I think there is one place where Cyre was the best, though. Outsourcing. Cyre hired more mercenaries then any other nation.

I like this viewpoint on Cyre. Good at everything, masters of nothing, and more money than they knew what to do with. Also, they had the majority of House Cannith's resources
This line of thinking makes me wonder if say there was a Military Academy in Cyre and the Karrnathi decided that they could better and started Rekkenmark. Cyre was supposed to be at the forefront of culture and such. So while they may not have been the best at anything, they were at the forefront of every development.
#4
Starsomava
Jun 29, 2012 16:57:54 Rekkenmark is OLD, pre war and probably goes back to Galifar I at least. there was a whole discusion about this is the "how did thrane actually fight" thread and it looks like Ogiwan wants to continue this (interesting) tangent even though we moved on in the other thread. If anything i can see the other nations making local schools to trying to get a cheap knockoff of Rekkenmark part way thru the war, but Karrnath held the lionshare of the military education.

As for Cyre, yeah jack of all trades with a massive budget and possibly Spiral Power (from Gurren Lagan) seem to have been their shtick.
#5
mutedfaithe
Jun 29, 2012 18:25:23 "Who the hell do you think we are?" Is going to be the new battle cry for the Cyre Fifth Crowns.
#6
Ogiwan
Jun 30, 2012 5:31:32
"Who the hell do you think we are?" Is going to be the new battle cry for the Cyre Fifth Crowns.

Rekkenmark is OLD, pre war and probably goes back to Galifar I at least. there was a whole discusion about this is the "how did thrane actually fight" thread and it looks like Ogiwan wants to continue this (interesting) tangent even though we moved on in the other thread. If anything i can see the other nations making local schools to trying to get a cheap knockoff of Rekkenmark part way thru the war, but Karrnath held the lionshare of the military education.

My position has always been that Rekkenmark is not only the Galifaran version of West Point (providing undergraduate/basic officer training), but also a War College/Staff College (with functions equal to the Army War College, or Command and General Staff College) to provide graduate education in warfare.

#7
Starsomava
Jun 30, 2012 5:51:46
"Who the hell do you think we are?" Is going to be the new battle cry for the Cyre Fifth Crowns.

[facepalm]
oh great... i've created a monster
[/facepalm]
#8
mutedfaithe
Jun 30, 2012 14:13:48
"Who the hell do you think we are?" Is going to be the new battle cry for the Cyre Fifth Crowns.

Ignore this, as well as any reference to a warforged scout jumping on a warforged titan's head and combining to make...something. Eberron the anime, now with warforged fanservice!

Would Cyre have had the most industrial capability? Eston had three creation forges, where Sharn has one. Eston was also the birthplace of House Cannith, so they would have had more artificers and magewrights then any other place in the Five Nations. So not only did they have more Warforged, but the best toys.
#9
Ogiwan
Jul 01, 2012 6:12:11 Thats an interesting question. One of Breland's strengths was its industrial capacity, but Cyre may have had equal, if not greater, industrial capacity. it would have just been subcontracted out to Cannith....
#10
Starsomava
Jul 01, 2012 8:35:40 part of having a big industrial base is having a large population, Breland is way ahead on that front.
#11
mutedfaithe
Jul 03, 2012 14:11:52 Cyre might not have been able to match the sheer numbers that Breland could produce, but they could produce a much higher quality product in a fraction of the time. In a couple of the books, its said that the other nations couldn't match the magical might of "Aundair and Cyre." So while Aundair might have a greater number of wizards, Cyre could have used a large artificer population to even up the playing field. I see a lot of wands and other magic items sprinkled liberally through the Cyre army. Breland might have been ale to out produce Cyre in mundane swords and armor, but since Cyre had a smaller population anyway, they were more concerned in the quality of their equipment then being able to get everyone a sword. Considering they had such a large mercenary force, their ability to produce wands and scrolls for already skilled Valenar wizards would have just made them that much scarier. A technological advantage is a huge edge to an army

So Cyre, the best equipped nation. Something they're not #2 at.
#12
Ogiwan
Jul 04, 2012 8:17:42
So Cyre, the best equipped nation. Something they're not #2 at.

Intriguing.
#13
isran_imrador
Jul 05, 2012 11:39:51 Who had the best navy then?
#14
Ogiwan
Jul 05, 2012 13:20:54 The best navy? Lyrander. Or maybe the Lhazaar Principalities.

Honestly, I don't see naval forces being that important to the conduct of the Last War, simply because all of the beligerents had land routes to each other. If ships play in, I see riverine warfare being the major route of naval engagements.

Thinking about it some more, the American Civil War shows what happens with wars where beligerents are next to each other. The vast majority of the war was fought on land. Sure, the Union blockade is credited with winning the war....but that was only because the South had a laughably small industrial base (if I remember correctly, the South had 117,000 factory workers, whereas the North had 117,000 factories). In terms of operations...the only operation I can think of that meant anything was McClellen's 1862 Penninsular Campaign (and Little Mac definitely lost that one). The other landings in the South were mostly to close ports and threaten the South's rear areas. So, the naval strength didn't really matter. I feel the same would go for the Last War. It might add to some engagements, but in terms of decisive factors....it wouldn't be.
#15
mutedfaithe
Jul 06, 2012 20:54:42
Who had the best navy then?

I agree that Lyrandar would have the best navy. Nearly all of the battles of the Last War seemed to be on land. I see most of the Nations having a large enough fleet to defend their individual ports, but not much else. Since Lyrander has a monopoly on shipping trade, the five nations probably paid them defend their own ships once they are out on the open sea. All part of the price of doing buisness.

That said, of the remaining big 5, I think Breland would have the best navy. As the gateway to Xen'drik, they probably have a lot of sea traffic and need to keep that sea lane open. They are also neighbors and allies to Zilargo, who makes alot of Lyrandar's ships, so the experts in ship building aren't far away. They might not be able to get elementa galleons, but they can get close.

I think New Galifar in Q'Barra would need to have an effective navy as well. They're a main port of call for Sarlona and they're next door neighbors to the Lhazaar Principalities, which means a lot of sea activity.

#16
Sturmvogel
Jul 07, 2012 7:11:01 I guess it would depend on how big/deep the Scion Sounds are. I never really compared the distances to any real world benchmark.

Like, are we talking St. Lawrence River? English Channel? Nile River? /shrug
#17
DoctorBadWolf
Jul 07, 2012 21:21:27
"Who the hell do you think we are?" Is going to be the new battle cry for the Cyre Fifth Crowns.

Oh god...the music is playing in my head now...damn you....
#18
Starsomava
Jul 10, 2012 18:14:02
I guess it would depend on how big/deep the Scion Sounds are. I never really compared the distances to any real world benchmark.

Like, are we talking St. Lawrence River? English Channel? Nile River? /shrug

acording to the 4e map its about 30-40 miles across between Aundair and Karrnath and wider around Thronehold. so a little less than english channel width
#19
Starsomava
Jul 10, 2012 18:14:25
"Who the hell do you think we are?" Is going to be the new battle cry for the Cyre Fifth Crowns.

Oh god...the music is playing in my head now...damn you....

you're welcome
#20
DoctorBadWolf
Jul 12, 2012 1:55:02
"Who the hell do you think we are?" Is going to be the new battle cry for the Cyre Fifth Crowns.

Oh god...the music is playing in my head now...damn you....

you're welcome

BTW, I think my next character (who I've already decided needs to be cocky, because too many recent characters have been serious and disciplined lately) will have to talk like Kamina.
#21
iheartsharn
Jul 15, 2012 16:18:57 I have always seen Cyre as having a lot of talent, but being a little too cocky as a result. Without the massive industrial base of Breland or the military talent of Karrnath or the like, Cyre could never be more than very convincing pretenders to supremacy. On the other hand, due to their primadonnaish talent, the people of Cyre viewed themselves of deserving of more. This sense of entitlement in the national character of Cyran refugees is a major point in our big campaign.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Ogiwan Jun 29, 2012 13:47:45	So, we have discussed, in other threads, about how Cyre's "strength" was that they had the culture of Galifar. Essentially, all the things that are strengths of the other countries were once the strength of Galifar, and thus, of Cyre. Now, I'm wondering if the true characterization of Cyre is as a "Jack of all trades." Or, more specifically, second-best at everything. Cyre may not have had as many officers trained in logistics, or the various levels (tactical, operational, strategic) thinking, because Rekkenmark was where that was taught (and thus, Karrnath would have the edge in those sorts of officers), but....Cyre would be number two. Sure, Breland has the King's Citadel. But, the second-most-effective intelligence service? The Cyrean service. Wizards? The Arcane Congress, and Aundair, would have the largest share, but Cyre would have the second largest. You can apply this thinking to all facets of the war, but the gist of it remains the same. Cyre didn't have a particular strength that it could use, aside from its wealth. Discuss.
#2 mutedfaithe Jun 29, 2012 15:04:42	I agree with the assertion that Cyre would be a jack of all trades. As you say, Breland has the Citadel, Karrnath has Rekkenmark, Aundair has the Arcane Congress, and Thrane has Flame Keep. Prior to the war, every nation would see attending their countries institute of higher learning as a matter of national pride. But Cyre didn't have one. So they would feel free to go wherever. So they would have more Rekkenmark officers then Aundair, more clerics then Karrnath, more Citadel agents then Thrane, and more wizards then Breland. Instead of most of their people going to one instituition, their populace would therefore be much more well rounded. Also, at the beginning of the war, some would have seen the Queen of Cyre as the rightful heir to the throne, leading to defections to the Cyre side, furthering expanding their skill base. I think there is one place where Cyre was the best, though. Outsourcing. Cyre hired more mercenaries then any other nation.
#3 Orkbard Jun 29, 2012 16:05:12	I think there is one place where Cyre was the best, though. Outsourcing. Cyre hired more mercenaries then any other nation. I like this viewpoint on Cyre. Good at everything, masters of nothing, and more money than they knew what to do with. Also, they had the majority of House Cannith's resources This line of thinking makes me wonder if say there was a Military Academy in Cyre and the Karrnathi decided that they could better and started Rekkenmark. Cyre was supposed to be at the forefront of culture and such. So while they may not have been the best at anything, they were at the forefront of every development.
#4 Starsomava Jun 29, 2012 16:57:54	Rekkenmark is OLD, pre war and probably goes back to Galifar I at least. there was a whole discusion about this is the "how did thrane actually fight" thread and it looks like Ogiwan wants to continue this (interesting) tangent even though we moved on in the other thread. If anything i can see the other nations making local schools to trying to get a cheap knockoff of Rekkenmark part way thru the war, but Karrnath held the lionshare of the military education. As for Cyre, yeah jack of all trades with a massive budget and possibly Spiral Power (from Gurren Lagan) seem to have been their shtick.
#5 mutedfaithe Jun 29, 2012 18:25:23	"Who the hell do you think we are?" Is going to be the new battle cry for the Cyre Fifth Crowns.
#6 Ogiwan Jun 30, 2012 5:31:32	"Who the hell do you think we are?" Is going to be the new battle cry for the Cyre Fifth Crowns. Rekkenmark is OLD, pre war and probably goes back to Galifar I at least. there was a whole discusion about this is the "how did thrane actually fight" thread and it looks like Ogiwan wants to continue this (interesting) tangent even though we moved on in the other thread. If anything i can see the other nations making local schools to trying to get a cheap knockoff of Rekkenmark part way thru the war, but Karrnath held the lionshare of the military education. My position has always been that Rekkenmark is not only the Galifaran version of West Point (providing undergraduate/basic officer training), but also a War College/Staff College (with functions equal to the Army War College, or Command and General Staff College) to provide graduate education in warfare.
#7 Starsomava Jun 30, 2012 5:51:46	"Who the hell do you think we are?" Is going to be the new battle cry for the Cyre Fifth Crowns. [facepalm] oh great... i've created a monster [/facepalm]
#8 mutedfaithe Jun 30, 2012 14:13:48	"Who the hell do you think we are?" Is going to be the new battle cry for the Cyre Fifth Crowns. Ignore this, as well as any reference to a warforged scout jumping on a warforged titan's head and combining to make...something. Eberron the anime, now with warforged fanservice! Would Cyre have had the most industrial capability? Eston had three creation forges, where Sharn has one. Eston was also the birthplace of House Cannith, so they would have had more artificers and magewrights then any other place in the Five Nations. So not only did they have more Warforged, but the best toys.
#9 Ogiwan Jul 01, 2012 6:12:11	Thats an interesting question. One of Breland's strengths was its industrial capacity, but Cyre may have had equal, if not greater, industrial capacity. it would have just been subcontracted out to Cannith....
#10 Starsomava Jul 01, 2012 8:35:40	part of having a big industrial base is having a large population, Breland is way ahead on that front.
#11 mutedfaithe Jul 03, 2012 14:11:52	Cyre might not have been able to match the sheer numbers that Breland could produce, but they could produce a much higher quality product in a fraction of the time. In a couple of the books, its said that the other nations couldn't match the magical might of "Aundair and Cyre." So while Aundair might have a greater number of wizards, Cyre could have used a large artificer population to even up the playing field. I see a lot of wands and other magic items sprinkled liberally through the Cyre army. Breland might have been ale to out produce Cyre in mundane swords and armor, but since Cyre had a smaller population anyway, they were more concerned in the quality of their equipment then being able to get everyone a sword. Considering they had such a large mercenary force, their ability to produce wands and scrolls for already skilled Valenar wizards would have just made them that much scarier. A technological advantage is a huge edge to an army So Cyre, the best equipped nation. Something they're not #2 at.
#12 Ogiwan Jul 04, 2012 8:17:42	So Cyre, the best equipped nation. Something they're not #2 at. Intriguing.
#13 isran_imrador Jul 05, 2012 11:39:51	Who had the best navy then?
#14 Ogiwan Jul 05, 2012 13:20:54	The best navy? Lyrander. Or maybe the Lhazaar Principalities. Honestly, I don't see naval forces being that important to the conduct of the Last War, simply because all of the beligerents had land routes to each other. If ships play in, I see riverine warfare being the major route of naval engagements. Thinking about it some more, the American Civil War shows what happens with wars where beligerents are next to each other. The vast majority of the war was fought on land. Sure, the Union blockade is credited with winning the war....but that was only because the South had a laughably small industrial base (if I remember correctly, the South had 117,000 factory workers, whereas the North had 117,000 factories). In terms of operations...the only operation I can think of that meant anything was McClellen's 1862 Penninsular Campaign (and Little Mac definitely lost that one). The other landings in the South were mostly to close ports and threaten the South's rear areas. So, the naval strength didn't really matter. I feel the same would go for the Last War. It might add to some engagements, but in terms of decisive factors....it wouldn't be.
#15 mutedfaithe Jul 06, 2012 20:54:42	Who had the best navy then? I agree that Lyrandar would have the best navy. Nearly all of the battles of the Last War seemed to be on land. I see most of the Nations having a large enough fleet to defend their individual ports, but not much else. Since Lyrander has a monopoly on shipping trade, the five nations probably paid them defend their own ships once they are out on the open sea. All part of the price of doing buisness. That said, of the remaining big 5, I think Breland would have the best navy. As the gateway to Xen'drik, they probably have a lot of sea traffic and need to keep that sea lane open. They are also neighbors and allies to Zilargo, who makes alot of Lyrandar's ships, so the experts in ship building aren't far away. They might not be able to get elementa galleons, but they can get close. I think New Galifar in Q'Barra would need to have an effective navy as well. They're a main port of call for Sarlona and they're next door neighbors to the Lhazaar Principalities, which means a lot of sea activity.
#16 Sturmvogel Jul 07, 2012 7:11:01	I guess it would depend on how big/deep the Scion Sounds are. I never really compared the distances to any real world benchmark. Like, are we talking St. Lawrence River? English Channel? Nile River? /shrug
#17 DoctorBadWolf Jul 07, 2012 21:21:27	"Who the hell do you think we are?" Is going to be the new battle cry for the Cyre Fifth Crowns. Oh god...the music is playing in my head now...damn you....
#18 Starsomava Jul 10, 2012 18:14:02	I guess it would depend on how big/deep the Scion Sounds are. I never really compared the distances to any real world benchmark. Like, are we talking St. Lawrence River? English Channel? Nile River? /shrug acording to the 4e map its about 30-40 miles across between Aundair and Karrnath and wider around Thronehold. so a little less than english channel width
#19 Starsomava Jul 10, 2012 18:14:25	"Who the hell do you think we are?" Is going to be the new battle cry for the Cyre Fifth Crowns. Oh god...the music is playing in my head now...damn you.... you're welcome
#20 DoctorBadWolf Jul 12, 2012 1:55:02	"Who the hell do you think we are?" Is going to be the new battle cry for the Cyre Fifth Crowns. Oh god...the music is playing in my head now...damn you.... you're welcome BTW, I think my next character (who I've already decided needs to be cocky, because too many recent characters have been serious and disciplined lately) will have to talk like Kamina.
#21 iheartsharn Jul 15, 2012 16:18:57	I have always seen Cyre as having a lot of talent, but being a little too cocky as a result. Without the massive industrial base of Breland or the military talent of Karrnath or the like, Cyre could never be more than very convincing pretenders to supremacy. On the other hand, due to their primadonnaish talent, the people of Cyre viewed themselves of deserving of more. This sense of entitlement in the national character of Cyran refugees is a major point in our big campaign.