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Dawn War?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
koesherbacon
Jun 19, 2011 2:21:20 Rule #1 for Eberron states: "If it exists in D&D, then it has a place in Eberron."

Does that mean the Dawn War between the gods and primordials took place long before the adventures PCs take in Eberron? Has it never been touched on and I can assume it, or something very similar, took place? Is it explicitly noted anywhere that it did not occur?

Many thanks
#2
ranadiel
Jun 19, 2011 4:54:47 I immedialy see two ways you could handle the Dawn War being incorporated in Eberron.

1. The Dawn War consisted solely of 1 God(Siberys), 1 Primordial(Khyber), and 1 Primal Spirit(Ebberon). The events between the three of them being Eberron's equivilent of the Dawn War.

2. Similar to above, the legend about the three dragons is actually not about three dragons but instead each dragon actually represents a faction from the Dawn War. People have just forgotten the true meaning of the story.
#3
koesherbacon
Jun 19, 2011 7:50:34 I like your second idea there. From generation to generation the truth got skewed into just the 3 dragons themselves fighting. Thanks man!
#4
AvonRekaes
Jun 19, 2011 13:39:12 It should also be noted that there's a third option. That the "Rule #1" is more referring to mechanical elements than story-conciets. The Dawn War of the core setting may have no bearing whatsoever on Eberron.

However, that doesn't mean that things like Primordials and Abominations (living weapons of the Dawn War) don't have a place in Eberron. It just means you may have to invent new stories for them to make them fit.

My personal "fit" for Primordials is to reverse their relationship with Giants. Instead of Giants and Titans being the creation of Primordials, I have Primordials be the apotheosis of Giants (after turning into Titans). Essentially, at the height of the Giant empire in ancient Xen'drik, their greatest leaders used draconic secrets to reach god-like power, and become Primordials.

Many elements of the Dawn War can be broken up and placed in the setting at different places. Primordials, as I described, have a place in the Age of Giants, but I place the living weapons, the Abominations like the Tarrasque, as being used in the Age of Demons during the Demon-Dragon War.

Magic items that feature the dawn-war as a theme (like various elemental protections on Dawn Armor) can either be stripped of their dawn-war flavor entirely or be placed as where makes most sense for you. The aformentioned Dawn Armor with various elemental resistances makes most sense in my version of the Age of Giants, forged by the rebellious elves to help their champions survive the forces of the elements the magically adept Giants and Titans rained down upon their heads.

TL;DR version: You can keep specific THINGS from the core-DnD world, but you don't have to take them at face value, feel free to change them around and break them up for what makes most sense to your world.
#5
Alex_
Jun 19, 2011 23:05:16 Like Ranadiel said, the Syberis/Khyber/Eberron battle was the original cosmic battle that saw to the ordering of the cosmos and division of the world between the divine, elemental, and mortal.

As far as his second explenation goes, there's actually quite a bit of evidence for something like this in Eberron.

Kieth has already stated that Primordials and Demon Lords are akin to Eberron's Overlords: powerful fiendish beings that came from Khyber ruled the world during the Age of Demons.

In contrast, the dragons and couatals were the children of Syberis. It is subtly implied in the books that the deities that make up the Sovereign Host/Dark Six pantheon are actually based on individual dragons of great renown throughout history.

Taking this into account...

During the Age of Demons, the dragons/gods battled the overlords/demon lords/primordials for control of the world. In the end, the coatals sacrificed themselves to bind the overlords in the silver flame and the dragons tossed them into Khyber/the elemental chaos.

Badda bing, badda boom. Dawn War.
#6
Hellcow
Jun 20, 2011 11:36:06
During the Age of Demons, the dragons/gods battled the overlords/demon lords/primordials for control of the world. In the end, the coatals sacrificed themselves to bind the overlords in the silver flame and the dragons tossed them into Khyber/the elemental chaos. Badda bing, badda boom. Dawn War.

Yup. AvonRekaes and Alex_ have said everything I'd say here. Note that the 4E Eberron book suggests using Khyber as the Elemental Chaos and placing the Abyss as "the deepest part of Khyber". I agree with AvonRekaes that there's no need to tie all abominations and such to that conflict; the idea that a particular abomination could be the product of the Giant-Quori war or the Daelkyr incursion makes sense to me... or even the Mourning.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 koesherbacon Jun 19, 2011 2:21:20	Rule #1 for Eberron states: "If it exists in D&D, then it has a place in Eberron." Does that mean the Dawn War between the gods and primordials took place long before the adventures PCs take in Eberron? Has it never been touched on and I can assume it, or something very similar, took place? Is it explicitly noted anywhere that it did not occur? Many thanks
#2 ranadiel Jun 19, 2011 4:54:47	I immedialy see two ways you could handle the Dawn War being incorporated in Eberron. 1. The Dawn War consisted solely of 1 God(Siberys), 1 Primordial(Khyber), and 1 Primal Spirit(Ebberon). The events between the three of them being Eberron's equivilent of the Dawn War. 2. Similar to above, the legend about the three dragons is actually not about three dragons but instead each dragon actually represents a faction from the Dawn War. People have just forgotten the true meaning of the story.
#3 koesherbacon Jun 19, 2011 7:50:34	I like your second idea there. From generation to generation the truth got skewed into just the 3 dragons themselves fighting. Thanks man!
#4 AvonRekaes Jun 19, 2011 13:39:12	It should also be noted that there's a third option. That the "Rule #1" is more referring to mechanical elements than story-conciets. The Dawn War of the core setting may have no bearing whatsoever on Eberron. However, that doesn't mean that things like Primordials and Abominations (living weapons of the Dawn War) don't have a place in Eberron. It just means you may have to invent new stories for them to make them fit. My personal "fit" for Primordials is to reverse their relationship with Giants. Instead of Giants and Titans being the creation of Primordials, I have Primordials be the apotheosis of Giants (after turning into Titans). Essentially, at the height of the Giant empire in ancient Xen'drik, their greatest leaders used draconic secrets to reach god-like power, and become Primordials. Many elements of the Dawn War can be broken up and placed in the setting at different places. Primordials, as I described, have a place in the Age of Giants, but I place the living weapons, the Abominations like the Tarrasque, as being used in the Age of Demons during the Demon-Dragon War. Magic items that feature the dawn-war as a theme (like various elemental protections on Dawn Armor) can either be stripped of their dawn-war flavor entirely or be placed as where makes most sense for you. The aformentioned Dawn Armor with various elemental resistances makes most sense in my version of the Age of Giants, forged by the rebellious elves to help their champions survive the forces of the elements the magically adept Giants and Titans rained down upon their heads. TL;DR version: You can keep specific THINGS from the core-DnD world, but you don't have to take them at face value, feel free to change them around and break them up for what makes most sense to your world.
#5 Alex_ Jun 19, 2011 23:05:16	Like Ranadiel said, the Syberis/Khyber/Eberron battle was the original cosmic battle that saw to the ordering of the cosmos and division of the world between the divine, elemental, and mortal. As far as his second explenation goes, there's actually quite a bit of evidence for something like this in Eberron. Kieth has already stated that Primordials and Demon Lords are akin to Eberron's Overlords: powerful fiendish beings that came from Khyber ruled the world during the Age of Demons. In contrast, the dragons and couatals were the children of Syberis. It is subtly implied in the books that the deities that make up the Sovereign Host/Dark Six pantheon are actually based on individual dragons of great renown throughout history. Taking this into account... During the Age of Demons, the dragons/gods battled the overlords/demon lords/primordials for control of the world. In the end, the coatals sacrificed themselves to bind the overlords in the silver flame and the dragons tossed them into Khyber/the elemental chaos. Badda bing, badda boom. Dawn War.
#6 Hellcow Jun 20, 2011 11:36:06	During the Age of Demons, the dragons/gods battled the overlords/demon lords/primordials for control of the world. In the end, the coatals sacrificed themselves to bind the overlords in the silver flame and the dragons tossed them into Khyber/the elemental chaos. Badda bing, badda boom. Dawn War. Yup. AvonRekaes and Alex_ have said everything I'd say here. Note that the 4E Eberron book suggests using Khyber as the Elemental Chaos and placing the Abyss as "the deepest part of Khyber". I agree with AvonRekaes that there's no need to tie all abominations and such to that conflict; the idea that a particular abomination could be the product of the Giant-Quori war or the Daelkyr incursion makes sense to me... or even the Mourning.