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| #1rauricFeb 22, 2009 13:40:05 | So the Devas are supposed to be about reincarnation. I kinda liked that for story purpsoes. These beings can really be fun in an EB game. What is your opinion? Perhaps they come from the ancient Sarlona Kingdoms? I do not know much about the race except they are about reincarnating. Any thoughts are ways to shed light on this new (PH2) race? |
| #2ieattrollsforbreakfastFeb 22, 2009 14:19:34 | Given the connection between rakshasas and devas in the PHB2 (see the backgrounds except: evil devas may be reincarnated as rakshasas), I think they'll probably have some connection to the Silver Flame to mirror the fiend/flame conflict throughout Eberron's history. Perhaps following the sacrifice of the couatl, some of the rakshasas reincarnated into blessed bodies rather than evil ones. It would make devas one of the oldest races in Eberron, while keeping them sparse enough to not have had a major effect on the history of the setting. Personally, I can't wait to play with the reincarnation aspect of the race. Imagine a Brelish deva dying fighting for his country, only to be reincarnated into a body in Aundair. Cue internal conflict and confusion when, while fighting for Aundair, the deva's Brelish memories resurface. It also gives you the chance to include interaction with important characters from Eberron's history - Galifar, Karrn, Lhazaar to name just a few. |
| #3GiloFeb 22, 2009 14:43:39 | There was some discussion (here) suggesting that the Devas can fit as the Kalashtar. |
| #4Twiggly_the_GnomeFeb 22, 2009 15:18:19 | There was some discussion (here) suggesting that the Devas can fit as the Kalashtar. Which is just a repeat of the Eladrin=Aereni silliness. The core Deva's connection to Rakshasas is more than enough of a hook to give them a role in Eberron. I'm more convinced than ever that the Kalashtar will continue to be a mechanically distinct race. ![]() |
| #5Cyber-DaveFeb 22, 2009 15:30:41 | Where have people read this information about the Deva's? I don't remember any articles talking about them... |
| #6Twiggly_the_GnomeFeb 22, 2009 15:38:26 | Where have people read this information about the Deva's? I don't remember any articles talking about them... http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20090220 |
| #7Cyber-DaveFeb 22, 2009 15:42:57 | Huh. I wonder if my Avenger of the Silver Flame concept is going to have to be changed from Human to Deva. Deva with the brink of corruption and forgotten lifetime past history. |
| #8anarythFeb 22, 2009 15:59:05 | Of course with my penchant for all things Tairnadal/Valenar, I wish the elves of that culture could get a similar effect. I guess, though, reflavoring Elven Accuracy as "Ancestral Guidance" wouldn't be far off the mark... |
| #9ellorinFeb 22, 2009 16:54:49 | Personally, I can't wait to play with the reincarnation aspect of the race. Imagine a Brelish deva dying fighting for his country, only to be reincarnated into a body in Aundair. Cue internal conflict and confusion when, while fighting for Aundair, the deva's Brelish memories resurface. A great idea Trolls. Now imagine that your Brelish Deva(or any deva) died on the Day of Mourning... |
| #10GiloFeb 22, 2009 22:12:29 | The connection between Rakshasas and Devas is given in the excerpts as an example for a unique way of flavoring this race not as the core premise behind it. The main theme here seem to be reincarnation of a spirit/life force/entity and the memory (sometimes the lack of it) of passed lifetimes. So I think all above ideas including Kalashtar are valid. |
| #11PJammaGodFeb 23, 2009 7:02:30 | Perhaps the Deva's will end up being the 4e equivalent of the Shulassakar, those humanoids left behind by the Couatl to help safeguard the world against evil and misuse of the relics the Couatl left when they sacrificed themselves to bind the fiends. Of course that was 100,000 years ago so through all those lifetimes you're sure to forget your original goal, or at least have it transmuted into something new ;) . Guess we'll have to wait until June to find out what's what. |
| #12ieattrollsforbreakfastFeb 23, 2009 9:30:21 | The connection between Rakshasas and Devas is given in the excerpts as an example for a unique way of flavoring this race not as the core premise behind it. The main theme here seem to be reincarnation of a spirit/life force/entity and the memory (sometimes the lack of it) of passed lifetimes. So I think all above ideas including Kalashtar are valid. I know the main theme is reincarnation, but I expect the rakshasa connection to be developed outside that excerpt in the main racial description. It's especially fitting considering the real world connection between devas and rakshasas, so I hope it isn't a unique aspect or throwaway comment. Mechanically and thematically I can see the kalashtar fit the bill, but I hope the races remain distinct. The deva concept is strong enough by itself that it doesn't need to be merged. |
| #13rauricFeb 23, 2009 9:31:35 | In my current game a 3E imp pc switched bodies with a tiefling to fit into my 4E game. As an imp he touched a spear that was actually a coutal that sacrificed it's life to turn into a powerful artifact. So a being of "pure evil" touched a being of "pure good", and he did not die. The spear went to someone else though because it did hurt the hell out of the little bugger. Enter 4E, the imp is now a tiefling, but gets images of odd things, and some of his attacks turn into radiant energy even though it may be a fire or psychic attack (he is a warlock). The player knows what is inside him and that it wants him to kill rakshsashas and the Cult of Tiamat. He is now questing for the spear and asked if he could retrain as a pally. I said we shall see, but it is going to happen when he finds the spear at the end of the quest. He also just heard about the Devas and how they are "anti-rakshashas". He thought that was cool. I may just have him become one as part of the quest. Once he holds the spear and the two parts of the coutal are rejoined the artifact is repaired again and transforms him into something totally new, a Deva. So afterwards we will have a being born a devil, transformed into a being of the Flame. He is going to be a messiah figure of a sort for the Silver Flame. I feel bad for the cardinals and Church ;). |
| #14AvonRekaesFeb 23, 2009 16:40:44 | I'm confused why everyone thinks reincarnation fits the Kalashtar so well. Kalashtar don't reincarnate, and don't believe in reincarnation, except as it applies to quori spirits and Dal Quor. For instance, sure The Enlightned Havakhad has a connection to the spirit Khad, who should all the Kalashtar of Khad's lineage die will reincarnate in Dal Quor into possibly a more standard evil quori spirit, but no one thinks that Havakhad himself will reincarnate when he kicks the bucket or that his memories will pass on to another generation. I'd also just like to note that Rauric's use of Devas is awesome. |
| #15rauricFeb 23, 2009 18:05:39 | Well thanks. |
| #16PJammaGodFeb 23, 2009 22:51:33 | So afterwards we will have a being born a devil, transformed into a being of the Flame. He is going to be a messiah figure of a sort for the Silver Flame. I feel bad for the cardinals and Church ;). I'd love to see Cardinal Krozen's face when he sees this one. Would be absolutely priceless :D |
| #17rauricFeb 24, 2009 7:08:44 | Especially since the imp used to be a drug dealer when he was living in Stormreach. The Cult of Tiamat (the BBEGs) hired this killer to ruin his life and he burned the organization to the ground though. After that all he wanted was revenge. Now he might use the Flame to accomplish this. In my game the Cult is getting very active very quickly. Many "sleeper" agents are awakening all throuhgout the world. Even Droaam and Dargunn are feeling this effect. The Cult offers power through dragon backed armies, that is a tough thing to turn down in the Cold War setting that is happening. What if the dragons that are being offered to the different nations start to fight each other? Then Tiamat is that much closer to being freed (See Dragons of Eberron). So the one kobold PC is taking a break from the group in Droaam to form a goblin/kobold army to fight the cult, and the Tiefling/imp is waiting for his destiny to pan out. It seems to be good times in the near future. |
| #18addle-cove-anarchistFeb 24, 2009 14:48:50 | though I hate what they did with celestials in 4e, this with rakshasas and devas seems cool, also would like to see some other Indian mythological tribes |
| #19skyodinFeb 24, 2009 21:42:22 | I'm confused why everyone thinks reincarnation fits the Kalashtar so well. Kalashtar don't reincarnate, and don't believe in reincarnation, except as it applies to quori spirits and Dal Quor. For instance, sure The Enlightned Havakhad has a connection to the spirit Khad, who should all the Kalashtar of Khad's lineage die will reincarnate in Dal Quor into possibly a more standard evil quori spirit, but no one thinks that Havakhad himself will reincarnate when he kicks the bucket or that his memories will pass on to another generation. The idea behind equating Devas and Kalahstar has to do with the idea of a living being who has access to the knowledge and memories of countless lifetimes. While the Kalashtar do not reincarnate, they do possess a link to a Quori spirit, which in turn has been connected to numerous other Kalashtar going back many generations. In that sense, using your example, Khad has been effectively reincarnated in the flesh of numerous Khalashtar. Yes the flavor is different, but some people believe that the mechanics behind 4E Devas can represent that spiritual link with a Quori spirit that the Khalashtar possess. I am not sure that I 100% agree with it, but I think that it is a reasonable thought. |
| #20GiloFeb 24, 2009 22:36:34 | The Kealshatar should have some vague memories/visions from his Quori spirit former life in the Dal Quor (even if the Kealshatar can't make much out of those alien memories - seem to fit the article's "Forgotten Lifetime" background for the Deva). The Deva crunch should be a good (if only temporary) replacement for a Kealshatar race writeup until June. |
| #21AvonRekaesFeb 25, 2009 11:12:35 | Except, as I see it, the Kalashtar "vague impresions" of their Quori Spirits memories has not ever really been a core aspect of their race. The mindlink and social empathy are much more important. Also, I don't recall there ever being a fluff instance of Kalashtar A remembering the life of Kalashtar B through the Quori Spirit's memories of Kalashtar B's life. For instance, if you play a Deva Rogue not trained in Diplomacy, and use your Memories of a Thousand Lifetimes to gain a bonus on the Diplomacy check, it's sort of implied that you're getting this boost from, say, remembering when you used to be trained in Diplomacy, such as if you were a Deva Warlord giving impasioned speeches to noble courts. A Kalashtar can't "access" the memories of a deceased member of the same Quori Spirit lineage through the Quori's memories of that member. Devas seem to have a pretty vivid memory of all their past lives. Enough to realize when one is missing, and enough to gain insight on how to do things cause they remember doing them so well before. Kalashtar have only been described as having "vauge impressions" of Dal Quor through their Quori. They've never been mentioned as having a "racial memory" before. |
| #22PJammaGodFeb 25, 2009 21:16:36 | It's probably better to describe the "racial memory" as more of a personality imprint from the 66 quori that escaped Dal Quor. The Kalashtar don't so much acquire past memories from others of the same line as having similar(ish) personalities as their patron Quori spirit. So one Quori might be calm and patient, so all his "descendant" all have that same calm demeanor. Another might be manic and vivacious, so his descendant are. And of course there are always exceptions that prove the rule. This is where the PC's most often fit into. |
| #23GiloFeb 26, 2009 0:59:58 | Troubled by the alien memories of the Dal Quor the Kalashtar have learned to focus his mind in order to keep his inner balance. The ability to be focused and calm in the face of danger could be the explaining fluff behind the "Memories of a Thousand Lifetimes" racial power. "The dreamlike memories of your previous lives lend insight to aid you." |
| #24AvonRekaesFeb 26, 2009 9:42:11 | I dunno. You can fluff anything the way you want to. I could use Bugbear stats for Kalashtar and claim Oversized was just the Kalashtar using telekinesis to aid his grip. I could use Dragonborn stats and claim Dragon Breath is a psychokinesis ability. I could use Dwarf stats and claim being able to use Second Wind as a minor action is due to an psychometabolism power. Just cause you can find a flavor angle to shove an ability onto the Kalashtar doesn't change that the Kalashtar don't have that ability. Sure, you can reflavor Memory of a Thousand Lifetimes as a Psionic Focus type effect, but then you're also ignoring that Kalashtar should have Mind Link and social skill bonuses. I know most of you here are probably just arguing for a temporary replacement, but on other boards people are claiming that the Deva and Kalashtar are too similar to warrant seperate racial write-ups at all. I'm doing my best to quash any of that sentiment because I really don't see it. So both races have ties to immortal beings. So what? Tieflings have dies to Devils, which are also Immortal. They are in no way similar to Devas or Kalashtar, just like Kalashtar are in no way similar to Devas or Tieflings. Kalashtar deserve their own racial write-up. The Deva is different enough that if you're just going to file the serial numbers off and use them as Kalashtar, you can start doing that for every race you've ever run across. |
| #25ieattrollsforbreakfastFeb 26, 2009 17:58:39 | For what it's worth, I agree with AvonRekaes. You can fit the kalashtar onto the deva template, their mechanics can be made to fit, but I don't think you should. There are other aspects of the kalashtar race which should be focussed upon over the quori memories which replace their dreams. It's a cool concept that can be used to develop a character, but isn't the core of the race, and so doesn't deserve to be such a large part of the racial mechanics. Even as a temporary measure, I'd steer clear of the deva race. I've been using my own homebrew (here) and it gets the job done fine. Even if the core deva race fits, I'm sure the racial feats and paragon paths will become increasingly divergent from the kalashtar idea. Besides, I wouldn't want to close off the deva race as written. |
| #26PJammaGodFeb 26, 2009 21:51:40 | I'll third (since Mr Trolls seconded) AvonRekaes sentiment about keeping the Deva and the Kalashtar as two seperate and distinct racial idenities. Trying to tye them together is like trying to lump the Eladrin and Elves back together again. They have enough of a distinct and unique background to warrant them being uniquely identified rather than franken-brewed into a singular race. |
| #27Cyber-DaveFeb 27, 2009 1:33:25 | I'll forth that sentiment. I would like Deva's in Eberron to be Devas. From their fluff, there is quite a bit to tie them in to early wars against the Rakshassa's, and to tie them into the Silver Flame. Deva's and Kalashtar deserve to be their own entities, not a conflated one = the other amalgam. |
| #28AvonRekaesFeb 27, 2009 15:30:54 | I'd just like to say that I agree with Cyber-Dave as well. I'm really intruiged by the connection to rakshasa in an Eberron context. The Deva seem really interesting all by themselves, which is also why I want them to be seperate from Kalashtar. (Because I like them both and want to enjoy them both seperately.) |
| #29rauricFeb 27, 2009 17:18:58 | I can see someone using them for a short term fix, but with the EB book coming out a 3 to 4 months after PHB2 I am not sure why you should bother. Do it if it works for your campaign though. I love the Deva concept now. It is very EB. Too bad goblins are not a race in the PHB2. That would be awesome. (I am currently reading Doom of Kings) Anyway hopefully there is a Deva article right after PHB2 comes out and hopefully there is a section on Devas in EB. Hellcow, the 4E EB campaign book does not cover Devas right? |
| #30AvonRekaesFeb 27, 2009 22:22:53 | I would find it really weird if it didn't. The Forgotten Realms books covered Devas, and that was like 8 months before they'd show up. The Eberron books will be out like 4 to 5 months after so they should mention them. |
| #31AvonRekaesMar 03, 2009 21:20:58 | Hey guys, sorry for the double-post but I came up with a cool history for Devas in my Eberron game, since one of my players expressed interest in playing one. I thought it'd be better to post it here than create a new thread. So! Onto my history for Devas. From several sources, such as Secrets of Sarlona, there's evidence that not all Rajahs are bound by the Flame. Some are contained in more-or-less eldritch-machine prisons. Considering that the war between Khyber's hordes and Dragons and their Couatl allies lasted for millenia, It's probably a safe bet to say that Couatls had tried a few things before they came up with (or discovered) the Silver Flame as a binding technique. Open Grave presents the Discord Incarnate, an abomnation created during the Dawn War of the core setting. Port this into Eberron, and they'd be there for the Age of Demons. The core flavor of the Discord Incarnate mentions that couatl sought to bind fiends, and that sometimes the process went awry and created a horrible amalgamation of body and soul, merging the fiend and the couatl into the Discord Incarnate. What if the merging wasn't a complete accident, but rather a process gone wrong? What if the first Discord Incarnates were Couatls trying to sacrifice themselves by binding their essence to that of rakshasas, thereby cancelling out the innate evil in the gestalt entity that would emerge? They'd also be cancelling out the innate purity and virtue of their own selves, but the couatls investigating this proceedure would obviously be of the self-sacrificing type, and also optimistic that the resulting entity would choose a better life than the vile one it's rakshasa half would have prefered. So though a few of the first attempts resulted in horrible Discord Incarnates, the rest, and all later attempts resulted in Devas. Since the resulting Devas were still immortals, they would follow the conservation of numbers. When one died, another one was born. At first, the couatls thought it was a success and continued to make Devas. And then the first Deva was corrupted. When it reincarnated, it was pure Rakshasa. (This idea was taken from the Brink of Corruption background for Devas, previewed in this article.) No one knew what happened to its couatl half. Thereafter, the couatls stopped attempting to make Devas and sought a better way to permanently bind the fiends. (Eventually ending up with the Silver Flame) |
| #32GiloMar 03, 2009 22:33:07 | At first, the couatls thought it was a success and continued to make Devas. And then the first Deva was corrupted. When it reincarnated, it was pure Rakshasa. (This idea was taken from the Brink of Corruption background for Devas, previewed in this article.) No one knew what happened to its couatl half. Intriguing theory, you could consider two variations to it: - The first reincarnation of the Discord Incarnate produce either a Rakshasa or a Deva at random (depending on who won the spirit battle) - The first reincarnation of the Discord Incarnate always produce a Rakshasa and a Deva (which is the missing half-couatl part). In such a case I wonder what will be the attitude of the Church of the Silver Flame, Lords of Dust and Dragons towards Devas? The mention of eldritch-machine prisons also gives me another idea: What if the Deva are the caretakers of such eldritch-machine prisons. put in place at the end of the first-age by the Couatls (mostly in Sarlona?) or by the Dragons (before leaving to Argonnessen?) to maintain the machines in there absence. They gave them reincarnating memory so that the knowledge of maintaining the prisons will not be lost with there short lived mortal bodies (Is someone in Dolurrh is given them a get-out-of-memory-wipe free card?), kind of old-school Gatekeepers. tho over the ages even those memories have somewhat faded. |
| #33AvonRekaesMar 03, 2009 22:38:57 | I don't think Devas and Discord Incarnates are connected to each other, in reincarnation terms. Discord Incarnates can't reincarnate as Devas, and Devas can't reincarnate as Discord Incarnates. Basically, the way I have it is Discord Incarnates being failed attempts at making Devas. They are forever tainted with the couatl's failure. What happens when a Discord Incarnate dies? Another one pops up, I'd say. As for the Deva reincarnating into a rakshasa, and no one knowing what happened to the couatl half, the truth as I see it is that the couatl is dormant inside the rakshasa. So depending on how many Devas went evil and became rakshasa, you could even have, say, a Lord of Dust sitting on the coucil of Ashtalaka that has a dormant seed of goodness inside of him. Such rakshasa can be "saved" and return to being Deva, but the rakshasa that were once Devas are indistinguishable from "normal" rakshasa. Also, the couatl would be so dormant the rakshasa wouldn't necessarily have much of a conscience, so the chances of even appealing to the fiend and getting it to renounce its evil ways would be slim. Deva can also be so pure they reincarnate as Couatl, but attaining that level of purity is so much harder than slipping into evil that it rarely ever happens. Hey, that'd be a cool Epic Destiny for Deva. |
| #34GiloMar 03, 2009 23:12:25 | I see, scratch the variations suggestions then - I'll rephrase it when I got a few more hours of sleep ![]() |
| #35JohnLynchMar 04, 2009 5:39:06 | I had a slightly different background for Devas in Eberron. In my version of the Eberron history, Rakshasa never existed. Instead there were Rakshasa Rajahs (from what I've read these are primordials or some other powerful creature), Dragons and Couatl. Before the war the Couatl rose some human tribes from their barbarity and evolved them into Devas. When the war started the Devas helped the Couatl in fighting the Rakshasa Rajahs and the Rajahs' minions. However as the war continued, some devas began turning towards evil and as a result when they reincarnated next, they did so as rakshasa. It happened to such a degree that rakshasa are now at least as common as devas, if not more common. In modern times the deva have a slightly uppity attitude towards humans and see them as less evolved people (as shown by the fact they constantly have wars and stuff). Devas (for the most part) believe that if they become good enough they will become a Couatl, although whether or not any have achieved this status is unknown. ------- This could also result in asking where did the Rakshasa Rajahs come from? It could be they're in fact Couatl turned evil. Or it could be Couatl are Rakshasa Rajahs turned good? |
| #36AvonRekaesMar 04, 2009 9:55:51 | That's interesting. Did the Couatl give Devas immortal memories on purpose then? In my version it's merely an artifact of Eberron's "conservation of numbers" concerning outsiders (Immortals). I'd also address the existance of the Shulassakar, the Feathered Servants (the good yuan-ti that the Couatls created from humans to guard sensitive areas.) Perhaps the SHulassakar were a later attempt to not elevate humans as much so they couldn't possibly create evil outsiders. As for the Rakshasa Rajah, they're the spawn of Khyber. Remember that Khyber isn't dead, merely trapped inside Eberron's coils. So this overgod of evil (Khyber) created "lesser evils" (on par with normal gods) to terrorize the creations of Eberron, to get revenge on it. |
| #3720thlevelfighterMar 18, 2009 18:42:11 | I like them more as returned Souls from the Silver Flame. I imagine a time skip that puts Eberron 4E in the year 1000, or perhaps later. In the time skip, maybe a big event shook around the land and among the things we have are the Deva, good souls that came out of the Silver Flame. Perhaps even tainted by the Demon in the Silver Flame, regurgitated when they came in contact with it and now looking into "returning home". Maybe now they come back with an anger towards the "false goodness" that is the Silver Flame and now they follow other Gods. Even better, they are bitter because they had the oportunity to be one with the Goodness of the universe and because of the Silver Flame faulty design, they were thrown away, now looking for retribution. Hahaha! I can totally picture that |
| #38LordDreadmanMar 20, 2009 15:03:36 | For just a moment, I would like the "Deva=Kalashtar" folks to think about the logical ramifications of their claim. Can you imagine the nightmare it would be for WotC to simply imply in the ECG that Devas are actually Kalashtar in Eberron? For starters, unless they plan on vastly reimagining the Kalashtar, Devas don't look ANYTHING like Kalashtar. You may say, "Well, Dreadman, that's just an unimportant non-game-effecting facet of the race," at which point I would remind you that you are basing your connection between the races on the NAME of a racial encounter power. WotC would still need to produce minis for Kalashtar, which starts to feel silly when they are actually saying, "here's your Deva mini IN Eberron, and here's your Deva mini OUTSIDE of Eberron." Please. In addition, WotC has made it abundantly clear that they plan on keeping the general backstory of each of the races essentially the same between Campaign Settings as we will soon see with the Tieflings in Eberron. While I will gladly concede that some basic ideas are similar between the Devas and Kalashtar, there is a vast amount of space for the Deva to be developed as a seperate race in Eberron. (Especially considering their direct connections to some of the most dangerous demons on Eberron.) I could discuss the story I believe the Devas will follow, but I think it is more important to discuss the differences to convince you against the Deva=Kalashtar connection (The Lovers, The Dreamers, and Me )The artists at WotC don't want to do a Deva picture only to have the devs come around and say, "Well, we like this picture, but we think it would work better in an Eberron sourcebook." (Just to expand on the first point.) *Why in the world would Kalashtar have knowledge of Common and two additional languages? You may say, "Well, the Quori part of the Kalashtar has existed in enough situations and places to be able to speak multiple languages," to which I ask you to remember the sorts of memories that Kalashtar deal with when they "dream." The Races of Eberron book in 3E states catagorically that Kalashtar remember the events that transpired before they joined with mortals. Never has it even been implied that Kalashtar share memories between each other (Thoughts, yes. Memories, no.). No, the Kalashtar share the same memories of their similar spiritual ancestor, but not the memories of each other (the Quori simply can't manage all that memory). Thus, at most, Kalashtar would show knowledge of Common and Quori (if not Sarlonan and Quori). *Why in the world would Kalashtar have a +1 to defenses against bloodied creatures? For Devas it makes sense to me. Rakshasas are demons and, as such, tend to be chaotic and often fly through hit points with reckless abandon. As a race that despises rakshasas, Devas would have honed defenses against them. On the other hand, the agents of the Dreaming Dark couldn't conceivably be farther from reckless. The Inspired are clever, secretive, calculating, and (above all) careful. When a Kalashtar fights an Inspired Lord, he needs his racial abilies helping him from the get-go, or he won't even get that badie down TO bloodied. Again, extremely unlikely. *Why in the world would Kalashtar be resistant to necrotic and radiant damage? First of all, where is the resistance to psychic damage?! I find that mistake deplorable. From there, I will concede that a resistance to necrotic damage makes a passable amount of sense, because they technically have two souls at once, allowing them to spread the damage between them. However, resistance to radiant damage is silly, considering what the Quori are. We need to remember that, even though the Quori who became the Kalashtar are fighting against the Dreaming Dark, they are still children of that same darkness. Even though the Kalashtar revere the light, the return of Il' Yanah means their utter destruction and remaking. I would hardly call that sort of reaction to light a "resistance." *Why in the world would Kalashtar have the immortal keyword? I don't think I even need to qualify this ... they're from Dal'Quor, not the Astral Sea (or any variation of it). As for "Memory of a Thousand Lifetimes," I think it fits well. The hazy memories of old battles in Dal'Quor and even the early days in Adar could easily assist Kalashtar on a minute by minute basis. Unfortunately, this simply isn't enough, and just because the Kalashtar could use this feature, does not mean that this is their defining feature. The biggest difference between the Kalashtar and the Devas is their individualism. Devas are extremely solitary, perhaps never meeting another Deva in their entire lives. In this way, Devas rely on their own bank of memories to help them get through. On the other hand, Kalashtar are thoroughly social. They work in tight teams, interacting sparsly with other races (in general). For the Kalashtar, it seems more likely that they will emphasize a Mindlink between allies that grants bonuses, based on the fact that they do not regard their entire conciousness as their own. In truth, when I sat down to comment on this, I had one or two points to make, but, the more I looked at the two races, the more I saw that they were extremely different and not compatable for sharing stats. What it comes down to is: Could WotC make the races the same? Yes. Do I think they should? No, I think Kalashtar deserve a seperate entry. I guess that's all I'm really trying to say. ![]() Yours, Lord Dreadman |
| #39nthdegree256Mar 20, 2009 19:13:58 | Furthermore, I think it's pretty clear that they won't. This month's Design and Development article makes it clear that they cared pretty strongly, even early on in 4E's development, about coming up with a solid background and look for devas. This is also evident in the fact that the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide, which came out last year, has a section on devas and their place in the world. Last month's Design and Development article about gnomes and half-orcs made it clear that they care pretty strongly about the races in Eberron - they pretty much flat-out stated that a part of the reason both of those races made it into the PHB2 is because they needed to be cool and valid PC choices in time for Eberron to come out next year, because they're both dragonmarked races and thus have a definite place in the world. Given those two pieces of evidence, I can't really see them suddenly deciding that distinguishing the kalashtar and the devas is too much effort. It's possible that kalashtar might not be statted out in the EPG, saving them instead for whatever Player's Handbook (3, I think?) will introduce psionics, but I definitely don't think they're going to wave their hands and say "use devas!" ![]() |
| #40darthnetherApr 05, 2009 1:49:34 | I don't know if Deva and Kalashtar will be the same race in ECG but i can definately see Deva being the Kalashtar in 4e. Deva are very simular to Kalashtar, bar appearance is i would say only slightly off but easily done by new Kalashtar now look like Deva. I think to many here argue the fine points of how things are in 3e and that they would not dare change that in 4e for race backgrounds. To me, thats preposterous thinking. Look at forgotten realms, there is no way that world is even remotely the same environment from everything 3e and prior, to what 4e changed it to. Races have changed, new ones added, like eladrin/elf. Eladrin, dragonborn and tieflings either never existed before, or in the last case went thru major changes and to accomodate alot of it, they even sundered the world to explain some of it. They made the Realms represent these changes, no matter how much they had to change it. Many posters here seem to think Eberron won't get the same treatment, but i think your deluding yourself if you think it won't. Those that argue the fine points of 3e racial fluff and stats and how you think it is going to transfer over with very little change when everything 4e has done, is changed the basis for everything. Ultimately, i foresee the Houses race being changed alot to accomodate the new standards of races. I am willing to bet as well, that Kalashtar will either be Deva (which works) or you will not see them stat'd at all. I thought i even read an article saying they will not include them at all in the first two books. That all being said, i am dissappointed in the Deva stats, mainly that they chose to give them Int over Cha. It is what they had in prior editions and there is little reason to not stick with that stat design. They are a race of angelic like beings, and the whole angelic aspect has always had a very strong presence, unnaturally so. I think the desiegners again chose to stat something not based on its flavor text and concept, but instead stat it to fit thier mechanics, that of the Invoker which they wanted Deva to accel at. |
| #41AvonRekaesApr 05, 2009 15:42:28 | Deva "work" as Kalashtar about just as much as Eladrin or Tieflings do. I.E., you can warp whatever fluff justification you want for their mechanics, but they all ignore the culture and niche of Kalashtar. Social, telepathic, empathic people. That is something that no player race so far does yet. As far as it being "preposturous" to expect them not to change the base identity of a race, I would respectfully disagree with you. It is preposturous instead for them to retcon a race so as to be unrecognizable mechanically and physically (Kalashtar go from being perfectly beautiful humans to dual-colored obviously inhuman? No). You mention that FR completely changed races but they didn't. Sun elves and Moon elves are Eladrin, and always have been. They don't look any different. And their new mechanics reflect and excentuate their high-magic cultures. Mythals? Yeah, that sounds like eladrin/sun/moon elves. Wild and Wood elves are now Elves, and their new mechanics reflect and excentuate their woodsy, naturalist cultures. As for Dragonborn and Tieflings, yes they were added. However, they didn't replace anything already present in the setting. What you, and everyone else in the "Deva=Kalashtar" camp, are suggesting is about as "preposturous" as "In Forgotten Realms, Dragonborn are known as Half-Orcs. They still look like draconic humanoids." or "In Forgotten Realms, Tieflings are known as Genasi. They still look like fiendish humanoids." "In Eberron, Deva are known as Kalashtar. They still look obviously inhuman with dual-toned skin tones in shades no human would have." Completely misses the point of Kalashtar. No thanks. |
| #42bobiagoApr 06, 2009 19:32:47 | I like to think about the Age of Fiends as being a war between the children of Khyber and the children of Siberys, but with the children of Eberron caught in the middle. My theory for the Orrery of Planes was that this was Eberron's way of spinning off her creations so that they would be safe from the conflict, thus preserving elements of creation so that they could return again and influence the rebirth of the world once the conflict passed. In that sense, I have considered the fact that the 4e MM states that Rakshasa are not fiends, but humanoids. What if they were humanoids (children of Eberron) that took the side of the fiends in exchange for favorable treatment? The Devas could be members of the same race that took the side of the Couatl and Dragons. The term "Rakshasa Rajah" which has been tied to actual rakshasa by very variable degrees but are clearly archfiends, would then be interpreted as "Fiendish Masters of the Rakshasa" rather than "Archfiends that are Rakshasa". To take this concept to its next step, what are the other side of the coin for the Night Hags? These are fey creatures (from a time before Eberron spun Thelanis off into orbit). Do they have a flip side? |
| #43Alex_Apr 06, 2009 22:37:18 | If Eberron didn't go with making the Aereni into 4E Eladrin and the Tairandal into 4E Elves, I sure as heck don't forsee them turning Kalashtar into Deva. |
| #44drconfoundoApr 10, 2009 13:50:34 | Here's what I sent to one of my players who is interested in starting up a Deva PC. -------- The scholars of Morgrave University often debate about the origins of the Deva race, but almost all of them can agree that the mysterious beings who seem to life countless lives trace their origins back to the Age of Demons, at least 100,000 years ago. In this dark time, the fiendish offspring of Khyber roamed the earth, twisting the landscape to suit their hellish whims. In time, the Dragons discovered their Prophecy, and using its guidance, rose up and fought the rakshasas, hags, and demons. The Couatls would sacrifice most of their number to bind the most powerful of the demon lords underground, where they are now trapped in the depths of Khyber. Some say that the Deva are the conjoined spirits of certain couatls and rakshasas, endlessly fighting a battle of will over the bodies that they are trapped in; if the couatls spirits do not stay vigilant in their battle for good, their opposite number will finally achieve their release, and another rakshasa will be loosed to walk the lands. Others say that the Deva are actually fiends who repented, and are still seeking redemption, tens of thousands of years later. It only shows how evil these beings were before their change of heart, that all these lifetimes later, they are still walking the knife's edge between the light and darkness. A few even fear that the Deva are fiendish spies, gone into hiding when their world was crumbling around them. So deep undercover that they themselves don't even know that there will come a day when they are called by one of their hellish masters to play an integral part in the resurgence of the Demonic Age. Until then, they are programmed to battle evil in all forms... evils other than the plans of their slumbering lords which they turn a blind eye to. Of course, there's no way of knowing which of these theories is correct, or maybe all of them are. The few Deva that roam the wilds of Eberron aren't saying. ------ This gives a few different options to what the secret is behind the Deva race, and also opens up three big character growth story lines... "The Internal Struggle between Light and Darkness", "Eternal Battle for Redemption", and "Secretly working for the BBEG". |
| #45rauricApr 10, 2009 21:22:00 | My player became a deva the other week. His pc is still nottoo stable with it and had an odd dream one night. Basically he was with his dragon lord, a goblin dragonrider and the dragons kobold assassin(this past life is set in the early Dhakanni era). They are planning something when they are interrupted by some followers of Tiamat, a rakshasha and a female deva, the pcs wife. In the dream he finds out that his wife convinced him to betray the dragon who was working to stop the Cult of Tiamat from corrupting the Dhakanni emperor. The pc deva attacks the kobold and goblin and is about to do something that will a final betrayal, possibly the thing that will change the deva's future lives forever, but the dragon kills him before he can do that. Anyway in his current life he is working for that same dragon thousands of years later (dragon has some tricks to pass though the ages) and his two companions are currently a goblin/warlord/dragonrider in training and a kobold assassin! I would say more but a player of mine (not the deva) searches my threads to learn about my game. So it is mums up for now. |
| #46kaodiApr 18, 2009 0:11:24 | While I imagine that there is probably some version of the Deva story already cemented, as the books are coming out rather soon, I will suggest a variation on what has already been suggested. Devas are not an amalgamation of couatl and rakshasa. They -are- rakshasa. Some of the demons bound by the sacrifice of the couatl were bound so tightly that the Silver Flame literally began to cleanse the evil from them, or as a pure rakshasa might put it "infect" them with its holy light. Thus a conflict has emerged, with the rakshasa spirit fighting against the infection, sometimes re-emerging as their former selves, but often being scoured clean more quickly than their dark essence can repair itself, until in a very few cases a new, pure being free of the taint of Khyber and the bonds of the Silver Flame emerges. Most of these spirits however, waver constantly between good and evil, never quite tipping the scales in either direction, and the immortal nature of the spirits keeps them returning to life to wage the battle yet again. |
| #47rauricApr 18, 2009 6:39:04 | I like the idea that they are rakshashas that have been redeemed. That is great. If the players guide comes up with a better answer I might use it but that is a good one. :D |
| #48PJammaGodApr 18, 2009 23:31:43 | Well my 3.5e Aasimar (and Genasi in 4e) has finally come full circle and returned to his Deva roots. Considering this character is from Thrane it works quite well, definitely dovetailing into his background and general disposition. Of course time will only tell the player can RP the character. For now we're just saying that this Deva has a long history with Thrane, constantly reincarnating in the region and always growing up there. Of course how long he/she has been doing this is anybodies guess... |
| #49davethebrave371May 02, 2009 14:49:53 | Devas are not an amalgamation of couatl and rakshasa. They -are- rakshasa. Some of the demons bound by the sacrifice of the couatl were bound so tightly that the Silver Flame literally began to cleanse the evil from them, or as a pure rakshasa might put it "infect" them with its holy light. Thus a conflict has emerged, with the rakshasa spirit fighting against the infection, sometimes re-emerging as their former selves, but often being scoured clean more quickly than their dark essence can repair itself, until in a very few cases a new, pure being free of the taint of Khyber and the bonds of the Silver Flame emerges. Most of these spirits however, waver constantly between good and evil, never quite tipping the scales in either direction, and the immortal nature of the spirits keeps them returning to life to wage the battle yet again. ...wow. This is an amazing explanation. |
| #50akodokojiMay 02, 2009 15:52:32 | While I imagine that there is probably some version of the Deva story already cemented, as the books are coming out rather soon, I will suggest a variation on what has already been suggested. Are you Keith in disguise giving us a spoiler of the Player's Guide? |
| #51nthdegree256May 03, 2009 0:15:18 | That's more or less my current favorite spin on Eberron devas, too - that they're effectively humanoid incarnations of the Silver Flame. I see it less as the rakshasa being "purified" and more as the rakshasa being tightly bound, since you can't ever truly kill or destroy them (hence why all of the Overlords are bound, not killed.) The power of the Binding Flame seals the rakshasa away within them as long as they are alive, and only falters momentarily during their death, much like a candle being replaced during a vigil. If the deva has stayed on the path of good, the binding will hold through death and remain intact when they are reborn. If they should stray into darkness, however, they weaken the binding enough that the rakshasa can break free once they die and the Flame falters. |