Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 tharkan Jan 29, 2008 12:32:02	Having read Faiths of Eberron, I've come to conceive that divine magic is obtained through a believer's sheer belief in whatever he believes regardless its existence and actuality (right?). If this is the case it comes across, to me, as a tad nonsensical. Does this mean that the average Joe of Eberron can obtain divine magic by authentically believing in something or someone that, in truth, is fictitious? Say, King Kaius' nonexistent dog (?). - Tharkan
#2 naturax Jan 29, 2008 12:52:45	Having read Faiths of Eberron, I've come to conceive that divine magic is obtained through a believer's sheer belief in whatever he believes regardless its existence and actuality (right?).
#3 Loki5654 Jan 29, 2008 12:59:22	Essentially, you are correct. I believe two things prevent this sort of extremist example from actually happening. One: Faith based magic reinforces belief. That is, when a person sees a Cleric of the Sovereign Host cast a spell, it makes it easier for that person to believe in the SH. If you were to try and worshiop Kaius' non-dog, you would have to Believe (with a capital B) pretty hard in order to get divine spells out of it. I'm not saying Clerics of the SH have to have less faith than the Non-Dog Cleric, I'm just saying that it is easier for them to find that faith because they can be presented with 'evidence'. Two: The DM. There are just some things a rational DM should say 'No' to and this is one of them (in my opinion). If your DM allows you to play a Cleric who worships Kaius' non-existent dog, then you've already gone beyond the bounds of the setting and into the realm of 'wackiness' where setting consistency doesn't really matter. Just my thoughts.
#4 Amaril Jan 29, 2008 14:31:00	Unless of course the DM forces the PC to have the Madness domain. :P
#5 tharkan Jan 30, 2008 11:24:31	Essentially, you are correct. I believe two things prevent this sort of extremist example from actually happening. One: Faith based magic reinforces belief. That is, when a person sees a Cleric of the Sovereign Host cast a spell, it makes it easier for that person to believe in the SH. If you were to try and worshiop Kaius' non-dog, you would have to Believe (with a capital B) pretty hard in order to get divine spells out of it. I'm not saying Clerics of the SH have to have less faith than the Non-Dog Cleric, I'm just saying that it is easier for them to find that faith because they can be presented with 'evidence'. Two: The DM. There are just some things a rational DM should say 'No' to and this is one of them (in my opinion). If your DM allows you to play a Cleric who worships Kaius' non-existent dog, then you've already gone beyond the bounds of the setting and into the realm of 'wackiness' where setting consistency doesn't really matter. Just my thoughts. Of course, any level-headed, competent Eberron player or DM would never have their character(s) worship King Kaius' dog. I was merely setting up some ludicrous example, and the fact that it theoretically isn't an unrealistic one kind of saddens me. If unadulterated belief is the central source to divine magic, how come everyone isn't capable of utilizing it? I mean, roughly everyone has something they're absolutely sure of (despite the fact that it hasn't otherwise been scientifically justified). Or well, maybe not everyone but someone ought to have, who alternatively don't believe in any of the Eberronian faiths! I'm very fond of Eberron's contradistinct concept for divine magic but at the same time I find it a little flawed, heh. - Tharkan
#6 vharuck Jan 30, 2008 15:38:01	This was always possible in D&D, not just Eberron. There can be clerics who don't worship any true deity or any deity at all. However, Keith Baker (creator of Eberron) has answered this quandary before. He asserts that, while devout worshippers of nature and hunting are capable of channeling divine magic, those who pray to a being named "Banor" or "Balinor" or something similar often end up doing better. Maybe Balinor is a real deity that favors those who worship him directly, but still assists those who serve his cause. Maybe "balinor" is a magical term, one that allows clerics to do more with the divine magic. In other words, it's natural selection in religions. Oddities can exist, true, but chances are they'll be beaten by what can do things better.
#7 skrap-san Jan 30, 2008 16:52:17	I see it as a how hard do you actually believe type of question. Do you actually have a faith that not only are you sure it exists (a lot of elves knows that the undying court exists) but are you willing to trust it with your life? Are you willing to devote large portions of your life to this cause that you place your faith and life in? In short, its not only enough to believe, one also has to live the belief to the max no matter what the belief is. (don't really know how the nonexistent dog faith would do this thou :P )
#8 julescarv Jan 30, 2008 17:59:34	With the caveat that I haven't read Faiths of Eberron, I would urge caution in generalizing from clerics to divine magic in general. Clerics do indeed, draw their magical power from faith. (I would argue that they draw it from a mixture of faith and more mundane magical practice like meditating on spells, using verbal and somatic components, etc, and all that other stuff that wizards do too, albeit not as rigorously.) Favored Souls from Complete Divine also require faith: the text in Complete Divine claims they must venerate a specific deity, and cannot be devoted to some non-deific cause or ideal like a cleric, but most believe that this should be discarded for Eberron purposes. At any rate, though, favored souls don't just wield their magic because they're good at magic -- they should certainly have faith in something. Druids are similarly required to have -- if not faith in nature -- at least reverence toward nature, although that reverence can take many forms. Adepts also require a cleric-style faith in something. However, rangers, as far as I can tell, gain the ability to wield (limited) divine magic regardless of faith, no more dependent on their beliefs or lack thereof than the spells of a sorcerer or the powers of a psychic warrior. Archivists (Heroes of Horror) and chameleons (Races of Destiny) are similar. Shugenjas and Spirit Shamans (Complete Divine) are a bit unclear -- I'm not sure whether they need to believe in anything or not, really. If Faiths of Eberron goes beyond talking about clerics, and says that all users of divine magic, including rangers, archivists, chameleons, etc, are required to be ardent believers in something, then I retract my previous statements.
#9 Hellcow Jan 31, 2008 0:09:11	A common misconception is that because it is possible for someone to "create a faith", that it's common, easy, or in some way proves that gods don't exist. None of these things are true. First, in Eberron, clerical magic (and personally I do view the natural magic of rangers and druids as being a unique thing, even though mechanically it is also "divine magic") is far less common than arcane magic. Most priests are not spellcasters. Instead, they are experts trained in skills like Heal, Diplomacy, Knowledge (history) and Knowledge (religion) - skills that help them to provide spiritual guidance and healing to their community, WITHOUT magic... just like the typical priests in OUR world. Being a cleric or adept requires some combination of true faith and devotion, great willpower, or a channel to the divine that others simply don't possess. Technically speaking, by the rules, it is POSSIBLE to worship absolutely anything and gain spells. But that's the mechanics. What is actually going on is known only to the DM. YOU may believe that your powers come from King Kaius's dog. Perhaps they do; perhaps that dog has magical powers. Or perhaps all divine magic is simply the radiance of Siberys, converted into a form you can channel through the lens of your deep faith. Or perhaps, the Sovereigns truly exist, and the closest Sovereign to what you believe has simply decided to answer your prayers; you think you're dealing with the Unseen Dog, but it's actually Arawai or Balinor. Beyond THAT, Vharuck has already mentioned the fact that it seems to be easier for casters to gain spells when they follow certain guidelines - and that this is one reason for the many versions of the Sovereign Host found across the world. The Giants worship Ourelon Lawbringer, the draconic priests of Thir speak of Oureonastrix the Loredrake, and the human traditions carried from Pyrine speak of Aureon, Sovereign of Law and Lore. It's possible that it is simply this shared faith that gives the idea power - that there is no deity there, but that the more people believe in a thing, the easier it is for a priest to gain divine magic through his faith - or it's possible that the faith is widespread because there really IS an Aureon up there. That's up to the DM to decide. But it is the case that priests seem to have an easier time getting spells from one of the major religions than from worshipping their shoes - which is why Eberron has a few major religions instead of ten million completely personal ones. So, from a purely mechanical perspective? You as a player are allowed to develop your own faith, subject to DM approval. However, from a WORLD perspective, this is supposed to be a remarkable thing, as PCs ARE remarkable people; few people have the devotion required to found a faith. And hey, whatever you believe, you might actually be getting your power from the Sovereign Host, the Silver Flame, or something else.
#10 Hellcow Jan 31, 2008 0:13:27	However, rangers, as far as I can tell, gain the ability to wield (limited) divine magic regardless of faith... I agree that there's a considerable difference between different forms of divine magic, especially "natural magic". Many of the rangers of the Eldeen Reaches are deeply devoted to the faith of their sect. But the majority of the Valenar rangers view their connection to nature as a weapon of war, a tool to be mastered and used - a very different approach from the Ashbound or Gatekeeper. To me, this is a matter of touching the ambient energies of Eberron - which for some is a holy act, and for others, a simple mental exercise. My previous post refers to clerics, adepts, paladins, and others of that ilk.
#11 tharkan Jan 31, 2008 9:58:47	Aha, the last few replies made things a bit clearer to me, and what fundamentally seems to be an apt solution to this negligible problem is to not run a purely game-mechanical-based campaign - I can live with that. An immoderately strong presence of game-mechanics can often oppress the enjoyment (and overall favour) of a setting, methinks, so I won't have problems coping with this. Anyway, thanks for the enlightening replies everyone! - Tharkan
#12 clayball Jan 31, 2008 15:25:48	Actual clerics require an incredibly strong will, as well as many years of intense training to be able to cast their spells. This is in addition to their faith.
#13 Edymnion Feb 09, 2008 20:18:31	The way I play it (and no, its never actually come up) is that Eberron is an innately magical world, and anyone with the proper state of mind can influence magic enough that it will respond to their bidding. How one achieves this state of mind varies. The wizards spend hours of devotion to learning arcane rights and rituals, who's patterns force their minds into the proper state. Clerics meditate and focus their spirituality to enter it. Druids and Rangers have molded their lives around the precepts of nature, while psionicists specifically force their mind into the right state through mental discipline. Sorcerers are oddballs that are just naturally born with their minds already in the right state to start with. They all tap into the same source of magic, and it is primarily differences in the ways they focus their minds that result in differences in the kind of magic they can cast. Sort of like there being one over-arching source of magic, but not all roads to it lead to all destinations. If you approach the source through the power of rite and ritual, you can get to area A. If you do it through faith and meditation, its area B, while intense mental conditioning gives you access to area C, etc. And yes, if your faith is strong enough, it can put your mind in the right state to tap into magic. But the point is that just believing is not enough. Thousands upon thousands of people have faith, but they are not spellcasters. The divine route requires ABSOLUTE faith that something will happen. We're talking fanatical level faith here. You believe with every atom of your being that your god will part the waters for you, and it happens. Most people simply are not capable of that level of faith, with there always being some nagging doubt in the backs of their minds. The Cleric does not have this doubt at all. Well, more precisely, they have learned through prayer to squash that doubt, but the more unbelievable the results (aka, the higher the level of the spell), the harder that disbelief is to quash. Hence you needing higher level characters who have learned to control their doubt. But hey, if you can pull it off, you could worship your shoe and it would grant you divine powers. I suggest giving it the Protection and Travel domains, and the favored weapon of Steel Toed Boot (a steel gauntlet in the form of a shoe). All hail the Almighty Shoe!
#14 julescarv Feb 09, 2008 23:56:47	And yes, if your faith is strong enough, it can put your mind in the right state to tap into magic. But the point is that just believing is not enough. Thousands upon thousands of people have faith, but they are not spellcasters. The divine route requires ABSOLUTE faith that something will happen. We're talking fanatical level faith here. You believe with every atom of your being that your god will part the waters for you, and it happens. Most people simply are not capable of that level of faith, with there always being some nagging doubt in the backs of their minds. The Cleric does not have this doubt at all. Well, more precisely, they have learned through prayer to squash that doubt, but the more unbelievable the results (aka, the higher the level of the spell), the harder that disbelief is to quash. Hence you needing higher level characters who have learned to control their doubt. I'd have to disagree. Saying that anyone who wields any divine magic has completely unshakable faith puts excessive constraints on the kinds of stories that can be told in Eberron. One of the ideas of divine magic in Eberron is that it allows us to tell stories of Tomas de Torquemadas and Martin Luthers -- people who have faith in some good religion who commit grave acts of evil, or people who disagree with their superiors over theology -- while still having our Torquemadas be spellcasting clerics, and still have both our Luthers and our popes wielding divine magic, since the gods don't clearly take one side or the other. Your view allows all that, but it closes off other stories DMs and players might want to tell: stories of Augustines of Hippo: people who have doubts and struggle with their faith and have unresolved questions, yet are no less true clerics than typical clerics, or alignment-mismatched clerics, or heretical clerics. We already know that faith, not matter how strong, is not suffcient for clerical spellcasting. A wis 9 person with the most intense, devoted, fanatical faith in the world will never be able to cast mending as a divine spell. Of course, we don't want to say that anyone with wisdom 10+ and strong faith is capable of being an adept or cleric if someone just taught them how to speak a few words and wiggle their fingers in the right way. Maybe who has the potential to be an adept or cleric is neither about who has completely unwavering faith nor about who's had a bit of magical training and has 10+ wisdom: maybe there's something in the blood, and the ability to be a divine spellcaster is a matter of chance, a bit like dragonmarks. Or maybe it's just an ineffable mystery. At any rate, though, I'd say that faith is necessary, but fanatical, completely unwavering faith isn't: it just restricts potential narratives too much.
#15 soltares Feb 11, 2008 14:42:07	One limiting factor is that no matter who you worship, the Silver Flame or Kaius' dog, your spells are mechanically the same, and a Spellcraft roll can be made to determine what you are casting for counterspelling purposes, for instance. You need the same materials (or divine focus), somatic, verbal and or XP components as any other user of that particular divine spell. It's not *just* faith here. There's also training involved, to learn these rituals to invoke divine power, and you're going to have a lot easier time learning these rituals as a follower of the Silver Flame (or any other established church) than as some yob who decided that King Kaius' dog was holy and granting him favor. An arcanist who questions the very existence of the gods might even note that the divine caster is doing nothing terribly special, and indeed, might even look down at the divine spellcaster for 'misunderstanding' the source of his power (while expressing consternation that these deluded types have mastered some magical abilities, such as curative magic, that has, thus far, eluded most arcanists). A Bull's Strength from a Cleric or Druid doesn't work differently than a Bull's Strength from a Wizard or Sorcerer, despite the very different beliefs of the casters as to where that spell's power is coming from, which could lead to a lot of confusion on the part of those who do not use magic as to 'what the big deal is.' Magic is magic, and the whole arcane / divine split might seem about as relevant to a Fighter as the PC / Mac schism is to one of the Amish.
#16 AlHazred Feb 11, 2008 16:53:57	... Or, alternatively, these guys are tapping into the very fabric of reality, which dictates what sort of powers can be drawn from "worship" (whatever "worship" really entails: a state of mind, reverence of actual extraplanar entities of great-enough power, feeding the dog only brand-name Khybers & Bits, etc.) Sort of how quantum physicists are figuring out that some things are they way they are just because the basic building blocks of the universe dictate that they have to be built that way.
#17 Edymnion Feb 12, 2008 11:58:07	One limiting factor is that no matter who you worship, the Silver Flame or Kaius' dog, your spells are mechanically the same, and a Spellcraft roll can be made to determine what you are casting for counterspelling purposes, for instance. You need the same materials (or divine focus), somatic, verbal and or XP components as any other user of that particular divine spell. See, that I consider to be the same kind of argument as "Well, if you throw a rock, or use a catapult, or a sling, it still travels in a predictable arc." Yes, the methods you used to propel the rock are different, with different levels of power, but the basic laws of the universe are still the same. No matter how you accelerate that rock, its always going to travel in the exact same path for the same angle and speed. Same with casting spells. Doesn't matter if you are enhancing your strength through ritual or through faith, the effect is the same.
#18 rania Apr 02, 2008 14:18:35	But hey, if you can pull it off, you could worship your shoe and it would grant you divine powers. I suggest giving it the Protection and Travel domains, and the favored weapon of Steel Toed Boot (a steel gauntlet in the form of a shoe). All hail the Almighty Shoe! I would SO sig that if I had any room left.