Do Dragonmarked Houses have share investers? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Do Dragonmarked Houses have share investers?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
neofish7
Feb 15, 2009 22:53:55 Well do they?

I think it would add a whole new level to the political intrigue if the DM houses had to constantly curry favor with various noble houses in order to ensure a steady supply of gold into thier coffers.

Wadda ya think?
#2
Hellcow
Feb 16, 2009 0:25:19
Well do they?

By default? No; it's not something you'll see in canon. As discussed in the Eber-run thread, the standard view of the houses is as entities that are capable of challenging the old aristocracy (especially because the power of the nobles has been weakened by the civil war). As such, the houses are intentionally presented as potent forces within the world, each wielding considerable influence over its sphere... and much of the internal intrigue and danger comes from the schemes and feuds of the different member families (especially notable in Tharashk, Cannith, and Sivis, and more dramatically in the Phiarlan/Thuranni schism) as opposed to power held by outside investors.

But if you like it as an idea? Run with it! I'll certainly be interested in seeing people's ideas on its impact.
#3
neofish7
Feb 16, 2009 13:06:09 Well... That kinda ends that idea, lol.

But don't Dragonmarked houses pay thithes and taxes to every nation in which they have an enclave? Do they also not pay for the services and wages of its guild memebers? Does it also not not pay for the moajority for the room and board of his actual house memebers? Where is this money comming from? Surely the potion and magic sword industry is that profitable?

Or would it simply be the fact that lets say, House Cannith for instance, has its fingers in so many trades that even in its limited markets its able to sustain itself. If the DM houses are infact monopolies it kinda makes it hard to believe that anyone would bother or be able to compete with the DM houses. For instance, Sharn makes mention of a member of the Aurum who got wealthy during the war as a weapons dealer, how would that be possible or profitable of Big 'Ole Cannith can mass produce arms for sale, prolly at a cheaper price. What need would there be for independant arms when you could go with something that is known to produce quality goods in bulk?

Another thing, DM Houses can't own land, correct? So how does Tharashk operate Dragonshard mines in Khorvaire? Maybe in the Shadow reaches and Doraam they can ignore this rule, but everywhere else? Due they just rent the space while they turn around and strip the site? That seems a little odd, or the nobility is just that stupid.

It would just seem to me that although the DM houses could be independantly wealthy, its in part due to to goverment contracts, kundarak loans, noble funding, guild income, adventurer finanacing, and perhaps the fact that the houses themselves simply buy smaller businesses and then to start taking thier cut outta its profits.

Does this seem accurate sir?
#4
Hellcow
Feb 16, 2009 14:23:07
Where is this money comming from? Surely the potion and magic sword industry is that profitable?

It's not just magic swords. Keep magecraft in mind; a smith may produce horseshoes and plowshares, but the Cannith-trained magewright will still be the best at the job. That's what the guilds are about. It's the smith who pays his dues to be a licensed Cannith business and bear the black anvil on his sign, because a) he's paying off his magewright training, b) People come to rely on brand-name recognition and trust a Cannith-licensed smith; and c) there's that chance that if he doesn't, he'll be visited by his warforged Uncle Kneebreaker in the dark of night.

For instance, Sharn makes mention of a member of the Aurum who got wealthy during the war as a weapons dealer, how would that be possible or profitable of Big 'Ole Cannith can mass produce arms for sale, prolly at a cheaper price.

First, the Aurum is a collection of wealthy individuals seeking power. It's entirely possible that the person in question could be a guildmaster or someone with some position within a Cannith arm; you can have some crossover... and again, there is internal intrigue and personal aspirations within the houses, as is especially clear with Cannith's current situation. Look to Tharashk, and the 'Aashta and Velderan clans may pursue very different agendas. Third, there's a matter of opportunity. When I say "Arms dealer" in the modern world, I'm generally not talking about a man who MAKES weapons; I'm talking about a man who gets the weapons to clients for profit. In the chaos of the Last War, you're not always going to be able to go through channels. Cannith may have a two-yearwaiting list on warforged... but Slick Willy can get you an archer squad tomorrow for double the price. He's actually selling CANNITH ARMS - he's just finding a way to make a profit doing it.

Another thing, DM Houses can't own land, correct? So how does Tharashk operate Dragonshard mines in Khorvaire?

As you note, most of Tharashk's mining operations are in the Shadow Marches, Droaam, Q'barra, and Xen'drik - all areas where people don't give much of a damn about things. Within Breland, they DON'T do much mining business; there they mainly focus on inquisitive work or prospecting, helping the people who already own the mines FIND the best veins for a share of the profits. Mining is one aspect of their business - finding is another, and it's their prime business within the Five Nations. This is also why Tharashk has diversified, also making profit by brokering the services of monstrous mercenaries to the Five Nations. Finally, of course, the point is that they can't own land under the Korth Edicts... and as noted in the EberRun thread, thanks to the Last War, the power of the Korth Edicts is fading. Lyrandar owns quite a lot of land in Valenar, not to mention Stormhome in Aundair. There's the THEORY of what the houses can and can't do, which was true when the full power of Galifar was there to enforce it... and then there's the truth of the present day.

It would just seem to me that although the DM houses could be independantly wealthy, its in part due to to goverment contracts, kundarak loans, noble funding, guild income, adventurer finanacing, and perhaps the fact that the houses themselves simply buy smaller businesses and then to start taking thier cut outta its profits.

I would agree that all of those things are factors in their wealth and power, yes. And government contracts were a major source of income during the last war, and still are. It's not that I don't see the houses making deals with nobles and working short-term investments with them (and this is CERTAINLY true in terms of rents)... I just don't see them as, when you cut to the bottom line, being CONTROLLED by the nobles. Cannith would love to get a fat warforged contract from Breland, but that doesn't allow Boranel to order Merrix to step aside as would-be patriarch in favor of someone else. Boranel could also seize the lands of the Cannith enclaves, which are technically property of the Brelish crown. But you have the flip side that while Cannith wants the gold from that Brelish contract and needs that land to operate, Breland wants the weapons that contract would produce and doesn't want Cannith giving services solely to Aundair.... which might be what will happen if Boranel pisses them off. It's a delicate balance. Under the united rule of Galifar, the nobles essentially had the monopoly and the houses needed their favor. But now that the nations are divided against one another, it's more vital for them to keep the favor of the houses, lest the houses turn on them and provide strong support to their enemies. Because the Next War is definitely looming in everyone's minds!
#5
RedRider
Feb 16, 2009 15:13:03
Under the united rule of Galifar, the nobles essentially had the monopoly and the houses needed their favor.

Not nitpicking at all, just throwing out some economics trivia:

As opposed to a Monopoly, a situation where one producer/seller controls a major portion of the supply of a good/service, a situation where one customer controls a major portion of the demand is called a Monopsony.
#6
Hellcow
Feb 16, 2009 15:20:55
As opposed to a Monopoly, a situation where one producer/seller controls a major portion of the supply of a good/service, a situation where one customer controls a major portion of the demand is called a Monopsony.

Yup - I was using the term in a general sense, but this is a more accurate depiction of the situation. Galifar was a single unified market with a tremendous amount of force to enforce its edicts. Now Khorvaire is a divided, high-demand market with no such unified force. Thanks for the trivia!
#7
Hellcow
Feb 16, 2009 15:27:39
For instance, Sharn makes mention of a member of the Aurum who got wealthy during the war as a weapons dealer, how would that be possible or profitable of Big 'Ole Cannith can mass produce arms for sale, prolly at a cheaper price. What need would there be for independant arms when you could go with something that is known to produce quality goods in bulk?

Another point here is that such an individual could be producing and selling weapons that are illegal by the laws of Galifar. The houses have certainly been bending the edicts over the last century, but they haven't fully challenged them... as show by Cannith going along with the destruction of the creation forges. We've never strictly stated what is forbidden in Galifar, but we've suggested that Jorasco and Vadalis, at least, have been banned from pursuing certain avenues of research. But nothing's stopping an individual artificer from producing some sort of horribly virulent infectious cloudkill bombs and selling them for a tremendous profit through back channels. He's operating on a small scale and under the radar, and producing something Cannith COULDN'T produce (legally, at least), so he's not in direct competition... but as an individual, he could certainl make a tidy profit.

Alternatively, Cannith or Jorasco could be the ones producing the forbidden goods... but since they can't sell them themselves or admit to roducing them, they use this fellow as a middle man.

And so on.
#8
mhacdebhandia
Feb 16, 2009 16:26:00
Another thing, DM Houses can't own land, correct? So how does Tharashk operate Dragonshard mines in Khorvaire? Maybe in the Shadow reaches and Doraam they can ignore this rule, but everywhere else? Due they just rent the space while they turn around and strip the site? That seems a little odd, or the nobility is just that stupid.

In fact, in the real world mining leases are very common. Here's an example of a relevant American law.

There's no particular reason to believe that the dragonmarked houses wouldn't establish mining leases or even purchase mineral/dragonshard rights outright from landowners.

Another interesting wrinkle in the commercial ventures of dragonmarked houses involves mundane raw materials. Does Cannith operate their own tin, copper, iron, mithril, and adamantine mines? Who cultivates the forests from which the lumber for Lyrandar vessels is felled? This could be one way to get noble houses involved in the business affairs of dragonmarked houses without giving them a shareholder's vote; as suppliers or those who own the land from which raw materials are obtained, they can exert influence, but ultimately they're also forced to compete with other suppliers and/or landowners - push Lyrandar too much by threatening to cut off the lumber supply, and they can go to another noble with good forests on her land . . . or cut you and your peasant farmers off from the services of the Raincaller's Guild.
#9
neofish7
Feb 16, 2009 16:36:14 Well Mr. Baker, this has been an very insightful thread. The Sharn arms dealer I was reffering to was Kalphan Riak, sorry I failed to produce his name earlier.

Anyway, your reponses have helped me tremendiously, I thank you. I'm about to start a new campaign (go-go first 4th ed. Eberron!) and I wanted some ideas and understanding as to some of the interworkings of the DM Houses and Government. Thanks again.
#10
neofish7
Feb 16, 2009 16:38:16
In fact, in the real world mining leases are very common. Here's an example of a relevant American law.

There's no particular reason to believe that the dragonmarked houses wouldn't establish mining leases or even purchase mineral/dragonshard rights outright from landowners.

Another interesting wrinkle in the commercial ventures of dragonmarked houses involves mundane raw materials. Does Cannith operate their own tin, copper, iron, mithril, and adamantine mines? Who cultivates the forests from which the lumber for Lyrandar vessels is felled? This could be one way to get noble houses involved in the business affairs of dragonmarked houses without giving them a shareholder's vote; as suppliers or those who own the land from which raw materials are obtained, they can exert influence, but ultimately they're also forced to compete with other suppliers and/or landowners - push Lyrandar too much by threatening to cut off the lumber supply, and they can go to another noble with good forests on her land . . . or cut you and your peasant farmers off from the services of the Raincaller's Guild.

Oh joy! Excellent, this is just what I needed, thank you Mhacdebhandia. They say you learn something new everyday, and thanks to you i've got not only something vital for my campaign, but a nice little history lession with it!

Edit-

Whoa, thats a tidy sum the DM houses would have to pay in order rent and operate under government law. Nice, as it would explain an enconomic return of coinage to government/nobles thus keeping the economy runnings. I've always been bothered by the thought that the Dm Houses hoard thier gold, stagnating the economy (Though i'm sure Kundarak would love this as it would call for an increase in national loans and allow Kundarak to further choose how much intrest and rates they can set, allowing them to sit back and reaping massive profits).
#11
Hellcow
Feb 17, 2009 1:38:50
Another interesting wrinkle in the commercial ventures of dragonmarked houses involves mundane raw materials. Does Cannith operate their own tin, copper, iron, mithril, and adamantine mines? Who cultivates the forests from which the lumber for Lyrandar vessels is felled? This could be one way to get noble houses involved in the business affairs of dragonmarked houses without giving them a shareholder's vote; as suppliers or those who own the land from which raw materials are obtained, they can exert influence, but ultimately they're also forced to compete with other suppliers and/or landowners - push Lyrandar too much by threatening to cut off the lumber supply, and they can go to another noble with good forests on her land . . . or cut you and your peasant farmers off from the services of the Raincaller's Guild.

I'll just note that I completely agree with this. Lyrandar is very dependent on Aerenal for soarwood, and the Zil binders for their skills. And a nation COULD certainly choose to end its leases... if it's prepared to deal with the consequences (not to mention losing the revenue they do receive from this system). So it's not that the houses are in any way all powerful. It's just that the balance of power between house and throne has dramatically changed due to the Last War.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 neofish7 Feb 15, 2009 22:53:55	Well do they? I think it would add a whole new level to the political intrigue if the DM houses had to constantly curry favor with various noble houses in order to ensure a steady supply of gold into thier coffers. Wadda ya think?
#2 Hellcow Feb 16, 2009 0:25:19	Well do they? By default? No; it's not something you'll see in canon. As discussed in the Eber-run thread, the standard view of the houses is as entities that are capable of challenging the old aristocracy (especially because the power of the nobles has been weakened by the civil war). As such, the houses are intentionally presented as potent forces within the world, each wielding considerable influence over its sphere... and much of the internal intrigue and danger comes from the schemes and feuds of the different member families (especially notable in Tharashk, Cannith, and Sivis, and more dramatically in the Phiarlan/Thuranni schism) as opposed to power held by outside investors. But if you like it as an idea? Run with it! I'll certainly be interested in seeing people's ideas on its impact.
#3 neofish7 Feb 16, 2009 13:06:09	Well... That kinda ends that idea, lol. But don't Dragonmarked houses pay thithes and taxes to every nation in which they have an enclave? Do they also not pay for the services and wages of its guild memebers? Does it also not not pay for the moajority for the room and board of his actual house memebers? Where is this money comming from? Surely the potion and magic sword industry is that profitable? Or would it simply be the fact that lets say, House Cannith for instance, has its fingers in so many trades that even in its limited markets its able to sustain itself. If the DM houses are infact monopolies it kinda makes it hard to believe that anyone would bother or be able to compete with the DM houses. For instance, Sharn makes mention of a member of the Aurum who got wealthy during the war as a weapons dealer, how would that be possible or profitable of Big 'Ole Cannith can mass produce arms for sale, prolly at a cheaper price. What need would there be for independant arms when you could go with something that is known to produce quality goods in bulk? Another thing, DM Houses can't own land, correct? So how does Tharashk operate Dragonshard mines in Khorvaire? Maybe in the Shadow reaches and Doraam they can ignore this rule, but everywhere else? Due they just rent the space while they turn around and strip the site? That seems a little odd, or the nobility is just that stupid. It would just seem to me that although the DM houses could be independantly wealthy, its in part due to to goverment contracts, kundarak loans, noble funding, guild income, adventurer finanacing, and perhaps the fact that the houses themselves simply buy smaller businesses and then to start taking thier cut outta its profits. Does this seem accurate sir?
#4 Hellcow Feb 16, 2009 14:23:07	Where is this money comming from? Surely the potion and magic sword industry is that profitable? It's not just magic swords. Keep magecraft in mind; a smith may produce horseshoes and plowshares, but the Cannith-trained magewright will still be the best at the job. That's what the guilds are about. It's the smith who pays his dues to be a licensed Cannith business and bear the black anvil on his sign, because a) he's paying off his magewright training, b) People come to rely on brand-name recognition and trust a Cannith-licensed smith; and c) there's that chance that if he doesn't, he'll be visited by his warforged Uncle Kneebreaker in the dark of night. For instance, Sharn makes mention of a member of the Aurum who got wealthy during the war as a weapons dealer, how would that be possible or profitable of Big 'Ole Cannith can mass produce arms for sale, prolly at a cheaper price. First, the Aurum is a collection of wealthy individuals seeking power. It's entirely possible that the person in question could be a guildmaster or someone with some position within a Cannith arm; you can have some crossover... and again, there is internal intrigue and personal aspirations within the houses, as is especially clear with Cannith's current situation. Look to Tharashk, and the 'Aashta and Velderan clans may pursue very different agendas. Third, there's a matter of opportunity. When I say "Arms dealer" in the modern world, I'm generally not talking about a man who MAKES weapons; I'm talking about a man who gets the weapons to clients for profit. In the chaos of the Last War, you're not always going to be able to go through channels. Cannith may have a two-yearwaiting list on warforged... but Slick Willy can get you an archer squad tomorrow for double the price. He's actually selling CANNITH ARMS - he's just finding a way to make a profit doing it. Another thing, DM Houses can't own land, correct? So how does Tharashk operate Dragonshard mines in Khorvaire? As you note, most of Tharashk's mining operations are in the Shadow Marches, Droaam, Q'barra, and Xen'drik - all areas where people don't give much of a damn about things. Within Breland, they DON'T do much mining business; there they mainly focus on inquisitive work or prospecting, helping the people who already own the mines FIND the best veins for a share of the profits. Mining is one aspect of their business - finding is another, and it's their prime business within the Five Nations. This is also why Tharashk has diversified, also making profit by brokering the services of monstrous mercenaries to the Five Nations. Finally, of course, the point is that they can't own land under the Korth Edicts... and as noted in the EberRun thread, thanks to the Last War, the power of the Korth Edicts is fading. Lyrandar owns quite a lot of land in Valenar, not to mention Stormhome in Aundair. There's the THEORY of what the houses can and can't do, which was true when the full power of Galifar was there to enforce it... and then there's the truth of the present day. It would just seem to me that although the DM houses could be independantly wealthy, its in part due to to goverment contracts, kundarak loans, noble funding, guild income, adventurer finanacing, and perhaps the fact that the houses themselves simply buy smaller businesses and then to start taking thier cut outta its profits. I would agree that all of those things are factors in their wealth and power, yes. And government contracts were a major source of income during the last war, and still are. It's not that I don't see the houses making deals with nobles and working short-term investments with them (and this is CERTAINLY true in terms of rents)... I just don't see them as, when you cut to the bottom line, being CONTROLLED by the nobles. Cannith would love to get a fat warforged contract from Breland, but that doesn't allow Boranel to order Merrix to step aside as would-be patriarch in favor of someone else. Boranel could also seize the lands of the Cannith enclaves, which are technically property of the Brelish crown. But you have the flip side that while Cannith wants the gold from that Brelish contract and needs that land to operate, Breland wants the weapons that contract would produce and doesn't want Cannith giving services solely to Aundair.... which might be what will happen if Boranel pisses them off. It's a delicate balance. Under the united rule of Galifar, the nobles essentially had the monopoly and the houses needed their favor. But now that the nations are divided against one another, it's more vital for them to keep the favor of the houses, lest the houses turn on them and provide strong support to their enemies. Because the Next War is definitely looming in everyone's minds!
#5 RedRider Feb 16, 2009 15:13:03	Under the united rule of Galifar, the nobles essentially had the monopoly and the houses needed their favor. Not nitpicking at all, just throwing out some economics trivia: As opposed to a Monopoly, a situation where one producer/seller controls a major portion of the supply of a good/service, a situation where one customer controls a major portion of the demand is called a Monopsony.
#6 Hellcow Feb 16, 2009 15:20:55	As opposed to a Monopoly, a situation where one producer/seller controls a major portion of the supply of a good/service, a situation where one customer controls a major portion of the demand is called a Monopsony. Yup - I was using the term in a general sense, but this is a more accurate depiction of the situation. Galifar was a single unified market with a tremendous amount of force to enforce its edicts. Now Khorvaire is a divided, high-demand market with no such unified force. Thanks for the trivia!
#7 Hellcow Feb 16, 2009 15:27:39	For instance, Sharn makes mention of a member of the Aurum who got wealthy during the war as a weapons dealer, how would that be possible or profitable of Big 'Ole Cannith can mass produce arms for sale, prolly at a cheaper price. What need would there be for independant arms when you could go with something that is known to produce quality goods in bulk? Another point here is that such an individual could be producing and selling weapons that are illegal by the laws of Galifar. The houses have certainly been bending the edicts over the last century, but they haven't fully challenged them... as show by Cannith going along with the destruction of the creation forges. We've never strictly stated what is forbidden in Galifar, but we've suggested that Jorasco and Vadalis, at least, have been banned from pursuing certain avenues of research. But nothing's stopping an individual artificer from producing some sort of horribly virulent infectious cloudkill bombs and selling them for a tremendous profit through back channels. He's operating on a small scale and under the radar, and producing something Cannith COULDN'T produce (legally, at least), so he's not in direct competition... but as an individual, he could certainl make a tidy profit. Alternatively, Cannith or Jorasco could be the ones producing the forbidden goods... but since they can't sell them themselves or admit to roducing them, they use this fellow as a middle man. And so on.
#8 mhacdebhandia Feb 16, 2009 16:26:00	Another thing, DM Houses can't own land, correct? So how does Tharashk operate Dragonshard mines in Khorvaire? Maybe in the Shadow reaches and Doraam they can ignore this rule, but everywhere else? Due they just rent the space while they turn around and strip the site? That seems a little odd, or the nobility is just that stupid. In fact, in the real world mining leases are very common. Here's an example of a relevant American law. There's no particular reason to believe that the dragonmarked houses wouldn't establish mining leases or even purchase mineral/dragonshard rights outright from landowners. Another interesting wrinkle in the commercial ventures of dragonmarked houses involves mundane raw materials. Does Cannith operate their own tin, copper, iron, mithril, and adamantine mines? Who cultivates the forests from which the lumber for Lyrandar vessels is felled? This could be one way to get noble houses involved in the business affairs of dragonmarked houses without giving them a shareholder's vote; as suppliers or those who own the land from which raw materials are obtained, they can exert influence, but ultimately they're also forced to compete with other suppliers and/or landowners - push Lyrandar too much by threatening to cut off the lumber supply, and they can go to another noble with good forests on her land . . . or cut you and your peasant farmers off from the services of the Raincaller's Guild.
#9 neofish7 Feb 16, 2009 16:36:14	Well Mr. Baker, this has been an very insightful thread. The Sharn arms dealer I was reffering to was Kalphan Riak, sorry I failed to produce his name earlier. Anyway, your reponses have helped me tremendiously, I thank you. I'm about to start a new campaign (go-go first 4th ed. Eberron!) and I wanted some ideas and understanding as to some of the interworkings of the DM Houses and Government. Thanks again.
#10 neofish7 Feb 16, 2009 16:38:16	In fact, in the real world mining leases are very common. Here's an example of a relevant American law. There's no particular reason to believe that the dragonmarked houses wouldn't establish mining leases or even purchase mineral/dragonshard rights outright from landowners. Another interesting wrinkle in the commercial ventures of dragonmarked houses involves mundane raw materials. Does Cannith operate their own tin, copper, iron, mithril, and adamantine mines? Who cultivates the forests from which the lumber for Lyrandar vessels is felled? This could be one way to get noble houses involved in the business affairs of dragonmarked houses without giving them a shareholder's vote; as suppliers or those who own the land from which raw materials are obtained, they can exert influence, but ultimately they're also forced to compete with other suppliers and/or landowners - push Lyrandar too much by threatening to cut off the lumber supply, and they can go to another noble with good forests on her land . . . or cut you and your peasant farmers off from the services of the Raincaller's Guild. Oh joy! Excellent, this is just what I needed, thank you Mhacdebhandia. They say you learn something new everyday, and thanks to you i've got not only something vital for my campaign, but a nice little history lession with it! Edit- Whoa, thats a tidy sum the DM houses would have to pay in order rent and operate under government law. Nice, as it would explain an enconomic return of coinage to government/nobles thus keeping the economy runnings. I've always been bothered by the thought that the Dm Houses hoard thier gold, stagnating the economy (Though i'm sure Kundarak would love this as it would call for an increase in national loans and allow Kundarak to further choose how much intrest and rates they can set, allowing them to sit back and reaping massive profits).
#11 Hellcow Feb 17, 2009 1:38:50	Another interesting wrinkle in the commercial ventures of dragonmarked houses involves mundane raw materials. Does Cannith operate their own tin, copper, iron, mithril, and adamantine mines? Who cultivates the forests from which the lumber for Lyrandar vessels is felled? This could be one way to get noble houses involved in the business affairs of dragonmarked houses without giving them a shareholder's vote; as suppliers or those who own the land from which raw materials are obtained, they can exert influence, but ultimately they're also forced to compete with other suppliers and/or landowners - push Lyrandar too much by threatening to cut off the lumber supply, and they can go to another noble with good forests on her land . . . or cut you and your peasant farmers off from the services of the Raincaller's Guild. I'll just note that I completely agree with this. Lyrandar is very dependent on Aerenal for soarwood, and the Zil binders for their skills. And a nation COULD certainly choose to end its leases... if it's prepared to deal with the consequences (not to mention losing the revenue they do receive from this system). So it's not that the houses are in any way all powerful. It's just that the balance of power between house and throne has dramatically changed due to the Last War.