Do goblins age the same as humans? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Do goblins age the same as humans?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Cyber-Dave
Jul 03, 2008 16:21:09 The threat title pretty much says it all... I'm trying to flesh out an NPC for my upcoming game.
#2
Hellcow
Jul 04, 2008 15:38:50 I've always been of the opinion that goblins mature faster and live shorter lives (Lhesh Haruuc led the rebellion in his early twenties, and at fifty he's long in the tooth - which is why he's keen to settle on an heir). I believe I've seen this spelled out in some canon source, but I don't recall where.
#3
mystrich
Jul 04, 2008 21:49:08
I've always been of the opinion that goblins mature faster and live shorter lives (Lhesh Haruuc led the rebellion in his early twenties, and at fifty he's long in the tooth - which is why he's keen to settle on an heir). I believe I've seen this spelled out in some canon source, but I don't recall where.

Does your book count? It was said in there.
#4
Cyber-Dave
Jul 06, 2008 11:07:14 So, would 14-15 be an ok age for a "19 year old goblin"? (I mean 19 in terms of the human equivalent in maturity.)
#5
Hellcow
Jul 06, 2008 13:16:28
So, would 14-15 be an ok age for a "19 year old goblin"?

If you mean goblin goblin (as opposed to bugbear or hobgoblin), I'd probably go even lower, like twelve. Given that I personally expect them to be dying of old age at 50, I have them mature fairly quickly. I have hobgoblins live a little longer and mature slightly more slowly as a result - but I have goblins go the quickest. This also results in goblins making up the largest segment of the goblinoid population in my campaign; they breed faster (and reach breeding speed more quickly) than the others.
#6
mystrich
Jul 06, 2008 23:44:25 Although, if you compare them to something in real life like dogs, it would be the opposite. Small dogs tend to live much longer than larger dogs.
#7
Hellcow
Jul 07, 2008 0:05:11
Although, if you compare them to something in real life like dogs, it would be the opposite. Small dogs tend to live much longer than larger dogs.

It's not actually the size I was seeing as the major factor; in my game, bugbears live about as long as goblins, and just don't breed quite as quickly. I've just always seen the goblins as breeding swiftly but living short lives. But again, that's just how I run them. Sure, you'll see it in my novels, but novels aren't canon. If you want an UNnatural explanation, there's a theory that hogbolins were always the core species, and that the goblins and bugbears were actually produced through some form of magebreeding in ancient times; however, that's a wild theory, and if it's true, none of the currently known goblinoid cultures has access to such techniques.
#8
mystrich
Jul 07, 2008 2:09:41
It's not actually the size I was seeing as the major factor; in my game, bugbears live about as long as goblins, and just don't breed quite as quickly. I've just always seen the goblins as breeding swiftly but living short lives. But again, that's just how I run them. Sure, you'll see it in my novels, but novels aren't canon. If you want an UNnatural explanation, there's a theory that hogbolins were always the core species, and that the goblins and bugbears were actually produced through some form of magebreeding in ancient times; however, that's a wild theory, and if it's true, none of the currently known goblinoid cultures has access to such techniques.

This gives me an interesting idea. Even though like most others, I'll probably never get to use it. But perhaps because they never had the techniques. But who do we know that had connections with ancient goblins and has access to the abilities to make superior animals. Their messing with the species starting the feud between the goblins and the elves in the original Valenar.
#9
Edymnion
Jul 08, 2008 20:19:19 My age table for goblins:

Starting: 11 years
Middle Age: 23 years
Old: 35 years
Venerable: 47 years
Maximum: +2d8 years
#10
goblin_pride
Jul 28, 2008 17:52:38 Personally, I've always made goblins fully adult at around age 5-6, Hobgoblins at around the human standard and bugbears at around 10-12. With the high mortality rates among goblins they pretty much need to be able to breed armies in under a decade and their maturity rate reflects this.
#11
Edymnion
Jul 28, 2008 21:10:44
Personally, I've always made goblins fully adult at around age 5-6, Hobgoblins at around the human standard and bugbears at around 10-12. With the high mortality rates among goblins they pretty much need to be able to breed armies in under a decade and their maturity rate reflects this.

Ah, but this is Eberron, what reason do you think there is to support the idea that they have high mortality rates, any more so than any other species?

From a biological perspective, only prey animals and creatures that do not tend to their young tend to be mass producers, simply to even the odds that some will survive long enough to breed. Goblins both care for their young, and are top tier predators (they eat meat, can craft armor and weapons as well as any human, and are highly intelligent).

They have a long history of being highly civilized, with a past empire that was longer lived than any human civilization.

So, what exactly in Eberron is slaughtering goblins left and right to warrent that high reproduction rate? And remember, we're talking a time period and lifestyle where your normal human commoner is going to have a half dozen kids in their lifetime. Even if we assume a 10 year old goblin is considered adult enough to breed, thats still roughly half the age of an equivolent human, meaning they would effectively breed twice as fast, even with individual birth rates being identical to normal humans.
#12
goblin_pride
Jul 28, 2008 21:41:06
So, what exactly in Eberron is slaughtering goblins left and right to warrent that high reproduction rate? And remember, we're talking a time period and lifestyle where your normal human commoner is going to have a half dozen kids in their lifetime. Even if we assume a 10 year old goblin is considered adult enough to breed, thats still roughly half the age of an equivolent human, meaning they would effectively breed twice as fast, even with individual birth rates being identical to normal humans.

I was thinking about the harshness of the society, rather than any outside influence effecting their breeding cycle. I saw a society similar to Tokugawa-era Japan when I first visualized Dhakaani society. Granted I may have put a much harsher edge on it than others, but I would still put goblins into a much faster breeding cycle simply because their smaller shoulders carried the weight of the empire.

And for the record, what is the earliest age for a human to reproduce? As I recall, it used to be around 13 or so. But then, I'm getting old and these youngsters today are pretty keen to prove me wrong.
#13
Edymnion
Jul 29, 2008 18:26:25
And for the record, what is the earliest age for a human to reproduce? As I recall, it used to be around 13 or so. But then, I'm getting old and these youngsters today are pretty keen to prove me wrong.

Normally, or freak cases?
There have been multiple confirmed cases of girls as young as 5 or 6 years old not only getting pregnant but having live births, but they are considered highly abnormal.
#14
mhacdebhandia
Jul 29, 2008 19:56:16
And remember, we're talking a time period and lifestyle where your normal human commoner is going to have a half dozen kids in their lifetime.

Personally, I downplay the "medievalness" of Eberron when it comes to things like infant mortality rates, "peasant" lifestyles, and all that. I've never thought it was particularly appropriate for D&D anyway, and I really don't think it's necessary for Eberron.
#15
goblin_pride
Jul 30, 2008 14:12:46
Normally, or freak cases?
There have been multiple confirmed cases of girls as young as 5 or 6 years old not only getting pregnant but having live births, but they are considered highly abnormal.

Well, there you go. Halve that and now you've got gobbos popping out youngins after 3 years, neh?

Consider this for a moment. In my games, the return of the Dhakaani empire is an inevitable end. Goblins breed so quickly that eventually they will overtake their neighbors by sheer numbers. Hobgoblins take longer to mature, as do bugbears so their numbers in the empire (and Darguun) are somewhat smaller.

Dhakaani commanders wouldn't fear the loss of one hundred or even one thousand goblins, simply noting that their deaths achieved the goals of the empire or not. In five years or so, the size of a Dhakaani army could easily double without a high mortality rate that comes from the harshness of their own culture and society.

Now it's just me thinking here, but how many casualties do you suppose came out of the Daelyr war if the gobbos of the empire were capable doubling in number every five years? Is the number high enough to call the Last War a minor tussle?
#16
Edymnion
Jul 30, 2008 20:01:25
Now it's just me thinking here, but how many casualties do you suppose came out of the Daelyr war if the gobbos of the empire were capable doubling in number every five years? Is the number high enough to call the Last War a minor tussle?

Now thats stretching things a bit too far, IMO.

D&D lists human adulthood as 15 years old.
Normally, you would not have a girl being capable of giving birth until at least 11 or 12, with 13 or 14 being the "normal" lower limit. Thats almost the same as D&D's definition of human adulthood.

So using my table, I would say they could normally reproduce after 10 years. Even then, population would not double every 10 years. Real world population grew from 4 billion in 1950 to 6 billion in 2000.

Using the D&D table, thats a 50% increase in the amount of time it takes the race to reach Old Age. If we want to use my age table, that means it would take roughly 70-75 years for the goblin population to double. Of course, thats still much faster than the 110 years or so it would take for the human population to achieve the same feat.
#17
goblin_pride
Jul 30, 2008 22:22:20
D&D lists human adulthood as 15 years old.
Normally, you would not have a girl being capable of giving birth until at least 11 or 12, with 13 or 14 being the "normal" lower limit. Thats almost the same as D&D's definition of human adulthood.

Ah, but isn't that the rub? We aren't talking about humans here, are we?

I will admit that my campaigns are chock full of gobbos simply because the buggers start breeding far younger than any other race, far more often and even take less time in gestation.

In a regular campaign this makes them some of the worst possible vermin, but in Eberron, it goes a long way towards explaining how the empire was able to muster huge workforces and massive armies. Sure they're just gobbos, but when they had leadership and drive, they built the greatest Empire Khorvaire has ever seen.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Cyber-Dave Jul 03, 2008 16:21:09	The threat title pretty much says it all... I'm trying to flesh out an NPC for my upcoming game.
#2 Hellcow Jul 04, 2008 15:38:50	I've always been of the opinion that goblins mature faster and live shorter lives (Lhesh Haruuc led the rebellion in his early twenties, and at fifty he's long in the tooth - which is why he's keen to settle on an heir). I believe I've seen this spelled out in some canon source, but I don't recall where.
#3 mystrich Jul 04, 2008 21:49:08	I've always been of the opinion that goblins mature faster and live shorter lives (Lhesh Haruuc led the rebellion in his early twenties, and at fifty he's long in the tooth - which is why he's keen to settle on an heir). I believe I've seen this spelled out in some canon source, but I don't recall where. Does your book count? It was said in there.
#4 Cyber-Dave Jul 06, 2008 11:07:14	So, would 14-15 be an ok age for a "19 year old goblin"? (I mean 19 in terms of the human equivalent in maturity.)
#5 Hellcow Jul 06, 2008 13:16:28	So, would 14-15 be an ok age for a "19 year old goblin"? If you mean goblin goblin (as opposed to bugbear or hobgoblin), I'd probably go even lower, like twelve. Given that I personally expect them to be dying of old age at 50, I have them mature fairly quickly. I have hobgoblins live a little longer and mature slightly more slowly as a result - but I have goblins go the quickest. This also results in goblins making up the largest segment of the goblinoid population in my campaign; they breed faster (and reach breeding speed more quickly) than the others.
#6 mystrich Jul 06, 2008 23:44:25	Although, if you compare them to something in real life like dogs, it would be the opposite. Small dogs tend to live much longer than larger dogs.
#7 Hellcow Jul 07, 2008 0:05:11	Although, if you compare them to something in real life like dogs, it would be the opposite. Small dogs tend to live much longer than larger dogs. It's not actually the size I was seeing as the major factor; in my game, bugbears live about as long as goblins, and just don't breed quite as quickly. I've just always seen the goblins as breeding swiftly but living short lives. But again, that's just how I run them. Sure, you'll see it in my novels, but novels aren't canon. If you want an UNnatural explanation, there's a theory that hogbolins were always the core species, and that the goblins and bugbears were actually produced through some form of magebreeding in ancient times; however, that's a wild theory, and if it's true, none of the currently known goblinoid cultures has access to such techniques.
#8 mystrich Jul 07, 2008 2:09:41	It's not actually the size I was seeing as the major factor; in my game, bugbears live about as long as goblins, and just don't breed quite as quickly. I've just always seen the goblins as breeding swiftly but living short lives. But again, that's just how I run them. Sure, you'll see it in my novels, but novels aren't canon. If you want an UNnatural explanation, there's a theory that hogbolins were always the core species, and that the goblins and bugbears were actually produced through some form of magebreeding in ancient times; however, that's a wild theory, and if it's true, none of the currently known goblinoid cultures has access to such techniques. This gives me an interesting idea. Even though like most others, I'll probably never get to use it. But perhaps because they never had the techniques. But who do we know that had connections with ancient goblins and has access to the abilities to make superior animals. Their messing with the species starting the feud between the goblins and the elves in the original Valenar.
#9 Edymnion Jul 08, 2008 20:19:19	My age table for goblins: Starting: 11 years Middle Age: 23 years Old: 35 years Venerable: 47 years Maximum: +2d8 years
#10 goblin_pride Jul 28, 2008 17:52:38	Personally, I've always made goblins fully adult at around age 5-6, Hobgoblins at around the human standard and bugbears at around 10-12. With the high mortality rates among goblins they pretty much need to be able to breed armies in under a decade and their maturity rate reflects this.
#11 Edymnion Jul 28, 2008 21:10:44	Personally, I've always made goblins fully adult at around age 5-6, Hobgoblins at around the human standard and bugbears at around 10-12. With the high mortality rates among goblins they pretty much need to be able to breed armies in under a decade and their maturity rate reflects this. Ah, but this is Eberron, what reason do you think there is to support the idea that they have high mortality rates, any more so than any other species? From a biological perspective, only prey animals and creatures that do not tend to their young tend to be mass producers, simply to even the odds that some will survive long enough to breed. Goblins both care for their young, and are top tier predators (they eat meat, can craft armor and weapons as well as any human, and are highly intelligent). They have a long history of being highly civilized, with a past empire that was longer lived than any human civilization. So, what exactly in Eberron is slaughtering goblins left and right to warrent that high reproduction rate? And remember, we're talking a time period and lifestyle where your normal human commoner is going to have a half dozen kids in their lifetime. Even if we assume a 10 year old goblin is considered adult enough to breed, thats still roughly half the age of an equivolent human, meaning they would effectively breed twice as fast, even with individual birth rates being identical to normal humans.
#12 goblin_pride Jul 28, 2008 21:41:06	So, what exactly in Eberron is slaughtering goblins left and right to warrent that high reproduction rate? And remember, we're talking a time period and lifestyle where your normal human commoner is going to have a half dozen kids in their lifetime. Even if we assume a 10 year old goblin is considered adult enough to breed, thats still roughly half the age of an equivolent human, meaning they would effectively breed twice as fast, even with individual birth rates being identical to normal humans. I was thinking about the harshness of the society, rather than any outside influence effecting their breeding cycle. I saw a society similar to Tokugawa-era Japan when I first visualized Dhakaani society. Granted I may have put a much harsher edge on it than others, but I would still put goblins into a much faster breeding cycle simply because their smaller shoulders carried the weight of the empire. And for the record, what is the earliest age for a human to reproduce? As I recall, it used to be around 13 or so. But then, I'm getting old and these youngsters today are pretty keen to prove me wrong.
#13 Edymnion Jul 29, 2008 18:26:25	And for the record, what is the earliest age for a human to reproduce? As I recall, it used to be around 13 or so. But then, I'm getting old and these youngsters today are pretty keen to prove me wrong. Normally, or freak cases? There have been multiple confirmed cases of girls as young as 5 or 6 years old not only getting pregnant but having live births, but they are considered highly abnormal.
#14 mhacdebhandia Jul 29, 2008 19:56:16	And remember, we're talking a time period and lifestyle where your normal human commoner is going to have a half dozen kids in their lifetime. Personally, I downplay the "medievalness" of Eberron when it comes to things like infant mortality rates, "peasant" lifestyles, and all that. I've never thought it was particularly appropriate for D&D anyway, and I really don't think it's necessary for Eberron.
#15 goblin_pride Jul 30, 2008 14:12:46	Normally, or freak cases? There have been multiple confirmed cases of girls as young as 5 or 6 years old not only getting pregnant but having live births, but they are considered highly abnormal. Well, there you go. Halve that and now you've got gobbos popping out youngins after 3 years, neh? Consider this for a moment. In my games, the return of the Dhakaani empire is an inevitable end. Goblins breed so quickly that eventually they will overtake their neighbors by sheer numbers. Hobgoblins take longer to mature, as do bugbears so their numbers in the empire (and Darguun) are somewhat smaller. Dhakaani commanders wouldn't fear the loss of one hundred or even one thousand goblins, simply noting that their deaths achieved the goals of the empire or not. In five years or so, the size of a Dhakaani army could easily double without a high mortality rate that comes from the harshness of their own culture and society. Now it's just me thinking here, but how many casualties do you suppose came out of the Daelyr war if the gobbos of the empire were capable doubling in number every five years? Is the number high enough to call the Last War a minor tussle?
#16 Edymnion Jul 30, 2008 20:01:25	Now it's just me thinking here, but how many casualties do you suppose came out of the Daelyr war if the gobbos of the empire were capable doubling in number every five years? Is the number high enough to call the Last War a minor tussle? Now thats stretching things a bit too far, IMO. D&D lists human adulthood as 15 years old. Normally, you would not have a girl being capable of giving birth until at least 11 or 12, with 13 or 14 being the "normal" lower limit. Thats almost the same as D&D's definition of human adulthood. So using my table, I would say they could normally reproduce after 10 years. Even then, population would not double every 10 years. Real world population grew from 4 billion in 1950 to 6 billion in 2000. Using the D&D table, thats a 50% increase in the amount of time it takes the race to reach Old Age. If we want to use my age table, that means it would take roughly 70-75 years for the goblin population to double. Of course, thats still much faster than the 110 years or so it would take for the human population to achieve the same feat.
#17 goblin_pride Jul 30, 2008 22:22:20	D&D lists human adulthood as 15 years old. Normally, you would not have a girl being capable of giving birth until at least 11 or 12, with 13 or 14 being the "normal" lower limit. Thats almost the same as D&D's definition of human adulthood. Ah, but isn't that the rub? We aren't talking about humans here, are we? I will admit that my campaigns are chock full of gobbos simply because the buggers start breeding far younger than any other race, far more often and even take less time in gestation. In a regular campaign this makes them some of the worst possible vermin, but in Eberron, it goes a long way towards explaining how the empire was able to muster huge workforces and massive armies. Sure they're just gobbos, but when they had leadership and drive, they built the greatest Empire Khorvaire has ever seen.