I'm about 50/50 on declaring Eberron's solar system to be geo-centric as opposed to solar-centric. (Probably used the wrong terms there, but you get me)
If I was to cement my idea that the sun actually revolves around Eberron, I'd probably have it be called, in ancient draconic myths, the Soul of Siberys, or "Sol" for short.
Yeah. I think it has to do with Eberron being seen as really damn important, so they don't want to remind you "hey, the universe doesn't *Actually* revolve around it!"
If I was to cement my idea that the sun actually revolves around Eberron, I'd probably have it be called, in ancient draconic myths, the Soul of Siberys, or "Sol" for short.
Or just Irian is the sun =P
"Sol" for short.
Heh, Clever (sun in spanish). That's my dauther's name.:D
Heh, Clever (sun in spanish). That's my dauther's name.:D
Yup! :D
I got the idea from loads and loads of Science Fiction based in our world's space-faring future. Nine times out of ten, we end up calling our home solar system the "Sol System".
(Also, that's a very pretty name for a girl. Kudos)
I mean, if you think about it, there probably are other planets in the Eberron System, but to the people on the world, they just are not important enough to mention. I probably would take a few thousand years to make the connection also with all these moons whizzing by. I'd probably be navigating the world by moons instead of stars.
However, unless you have more then one sun, or no sun at all, usually it's not even worth mentioning.
I think the question also comes up because Eberron is somewhat of an artificial world. It's not really a planet, it's a dragon coiled around another dragon hurtling through the void of space. For all we know, it's not even in a galaxy.
You forgot that those two coiled dragons are surrounded by the shredded remains of a third dragon.
Anyway, that's only a creation myth, mush like the numerous mythologies and religions of our own world. Granted it's probably the most prevalent creation myth in the setting, however, no one really knows how the world was actually created.
From the planets surface, Eberrons sun would have the same prominence/apparent size as earth sun does, but from a point of view on a spelljammer in orbit, for example, it would appear as a painfully bright orb slightly smaller than the smallest moon.
@kensan Oni - Eberron is a Ringworld? Like Halo?
I don't know a 'planet Halo', but I would have used Saturn as the example for planetary rings (obviously, Eberron is not a gas giant).
I keep it simple. Yellow sun, Eberron revolves around it, other planets but there's nothing interesting on them.
At least, that would be consistent with pantheistic traditions. And if you stare at her long enough without blinking, she'll give you visions.
Also without a sun, life could not exist.
What if a wizard did it?
What if a wizard did it?
I'm not buying it. It could be fluffed away to never never land and I still wouldn't buy it. The sun's energy is the reason life can exist in the first place. Without a sun, we would have a dead rock floating through space. Might as well say eberron is on an alternate plane where the universal laws of the multiverse do not apply.
Eberron is in the material plane, so it has to have a sun. There is information in the game books that suggest strongly that it does indeed have a sun. Starting with the measurement of time based on daytime and nighttime.
It also suggests that eberron orbits the sun, based on the calender.
We have a sun. But it's nice to think up alternate theories =P
I think the question also comes up because Eberron is somewhat of an artificial world. It's not really a planet, it's a dragon coiled around another dragon hurtling through the void of space. For all we know, it's not even in a galaxy.
That stuff is just creation myth stuff IMO.
I think the question also comes up because Eberron is somewhat of an artificial world. It's not really a planet, it's a dragon coiled around another dragon hurtling through the void of space. For all we know, it's not even in a galaxy.
Eh, that's religious Nonsense.
I don't let no Draconic Prophecy guide my destiny. I'd rather trust in a Rod of Fireballs then any faith in ancient dead dragons protecting me!Yes eberron has a sun, if it didn't then the campaign setting would never meantion (daytime). Also without a sun, life could not exist.
Explain Khyber/the Underdark then. :D
@kensan Oni - Eberron is a Ringworld? Like Halo?
Like most of our Outer Planets. I suppose I should have said Ringed World. Sorry.
It also suggests that eberron orbits the sun, based on the calender.
This is the best evidence for a Sun, IMO. Without one, it becomes very difficult to explain the waxing/waning of the moons. Even if they had internal light sources, it'd be difficult to explain them all changing on a waxing/waning cycle.
Not that I've checked the various phases in the Calendar to prove the existence of a single Sun or anything... the actual evidence of the phases might prove the contrary!
I actually like the new set-up where the planar orbits are just metaphors for planar influence.
I use a tide metaphor myself. High tide its conterminous, low tide its remote.
Dol Arrah is the sun
At least, that would be consistent with pantheistic traditions. And if you stare at her long enough without blinking, she'll give you visions.
Explain Khyber/the Underdark then. :D
Explain how creatures live deep in the earth or in the deepest parts of the ocean in real life. Same concept.;)
Just for the record, D&D does have worlds without suns: Sigil explicitly has no sun, the sky just goes through a cycle of bright and dark.
Of course, DMs can do whatever they like, whether they use a conventional solar system with more-or-less real physics, or something really magically wonky. I asked the original question mostly to see if there was some "official" mention of the sun that I'd overlooked.
Like most of our Outer Planets. I suppose I should have said Ringed World. Sorry.
Oh Ringed World...Ok...I thought you meant Ring World...
I'm not buying it. It could be fluffed away to never never land and I still wouldn't buy it. The sun's energy is the reason life can exist in the first place. Without a sun, we would have a dead rock floating through space. Might as well say eberron is on an alternate plane where the universal laws of the multiverse do not apply.
Eberron is in the material plane, so it has to have a sun. There is information in the game books that suggest strongly that it does indeed have a sun. Starting with the measurement of time based on daytime and nighttime.
It also suggests that eberron orbits the sun, based on the calender.
In a universe with Fire/Ice/Acid/Poison breathing Dragons that practically play chess with the other races, Ships that fly through the air because of elemental monstrosities that have been magically sealed into crystals, Sentient Man-Made constructs with bodies of Wood and Rock, and other such concepts that defy earthly Physics and logic...What need have we for a sun, other than for our own amusement?
Dol Arrah is the sun
At least, that would be consistent with pantheistic traditions. And if you stare at her long enough without blinking, she'll give you visions.
"My mother always told me never to stare at Dol Arrah. So when I was six, I did."
if you know what movie I paraphrased. Oh Ringed World...Ok...I thought you meant Ring World...
In a universe with Fire/Ice/Acid/Poison breathing Dragons that practically play chess with the other races, Ships that fly through the air because of elemental monstrosities that have been magically sealed into crystals, Sentient Man-Made constructs with bodies of Wood and Rock, and other such concepts that defy earthly Physics and logic...What need have we for a sun, other than for our own amusement?
I'm not sure what its called in D&D terms, I can't remember offhand. But I'll call it the "believability factor". Universal laws of the multiverse apply to basically every setting ever released except maybe ravenloft.
Inner and outer planes have nothing to do with sustaining life on the material plane. The gods themselves USE the sun as a way to sustain life. Gods just snapping their fingers and everything is fine and dandy is not a good method of explaining anything.
Question, How does life exist without a sun on this world?
Answer, the gods will it to be so. Think of it as a plot device. (Bad form!)
But the fact is that eberron does have a sun, its supported in many books with how things are measured. The fact that the planet has humanoid and animal life, plant life and oceans further support this. The fact that the world is not a dead, frozen world adds further support. The sun provides the head and light needed to sustain life. Also the suns radiation probably plays a huge part in it, but again, I'm no expert.
I'm no expert on the cosmic principles, but I know that the sun is a key factor in supporting life on earth. Without it, we would not exist. Now you could say that the goddess so and so IS the sun, but that still means eberron has a sun.
Then again the concept of eberron gods is just a theory and there is no way to prove that they exist. Its already known that faithful gain divine powers simply through belief and not from beings of great power.
But if people rather not have a sun and figure some new way of sustaining life on the planet and simulating daylight and moonlight and heat. Nothing wrong with that. MY eberron has a sun.;)
But if people rather not have a sun and figure some new way of sustaining life on the planet and simulating daylight and moonlight and heat. Nothing wrong with that. MY eberron has a sun.;)
An ancient progenitor wyrm, parent of K/S/E, is floating in space, gently blowing flames/heat through the distance to warm the world as it's precious egg while it spins, waiting for it to hatch. On Eberron, you just can't see the dragon because it is obviously behind the flames. :P The 'World Egg' itself is her only remaining child after the 3 killed themselves. The Prophecy is actually the hopeful whispers and songs of the nurturing mother dragon carried on the flames/heat to her egg and leaving it's marks in the patterns on the shell.
Not bad for 5 minutes ;)
An ancient progenitor wyrm, parent of K/S/E, is floating in space, gently blowing flames/heat through the distance to warm the world as it's precious egg while it spins, waiting for it to hatch. On Eberron, you just can't see the dragon because it is obviously behind the flames. :P The 'World Egg' itself is her only remaining child after the 3 killed themselves. The Prophecy is actually the hopeful whispers and songs of the nurturing mother dragon carried on the flames/heat to her egg and leaving it's marks in the patterns on the shell.
Not bad for 5 minutes ;)
And if you wanted to take it further, if everything is over,on, or part of the shell, including Khyber, the Day of Mourning could easily have been the stirrings of the new dragon beginning to break free of it's shell. It could have been annoyed by all the magical battles on the surface, or completely oblivious to them and it's just it's time to hatch, which could take any number of years/centuries/longer.
An ancient progenitor wyrm, parent of K/S/E, is floating in space, gently blowing flames/heat through the distance to warm the world as it's precious egg while it spins, waiting for it to hatch. On Eberron, you just can't see the dragon because it is obviously behind the flames. :P The 'World Egg' itself is her only remaining child after the 3 killed themselves. The Prophecy is actually the hopeful whispers and songs of the nurturing mother dragon carried on the flames/heat to her egg and leaving it's marks in the patterns on the shell.
Not bad for 5 minutes ;)
Not bad, but the dragon's flames would have to produce the required radiation that the sun has. Also, we don't know if the world is infact made up of three different celestial dragons. That could all be a myth.
It just stretches the believability factor to the point of breaking. Nothing would really suprise anyone no matter what happened. This is why fantastical things have to be moderated, else, nothing is interesting because everything spectacular is possible.
It would be nice to have more detail on this area. Maybe Mr Baker can do a future article in dragon about this subject to clear things up.
And if you wanted to take it further, if everything is over,on, or part of the shell, including Khyber, the Day of Mourning could easily have been the stirrings of the new dragon beginning to break free of it's shell. It could have been annoyed by all the magical battles on the surface, or completely oblivious to them and it's just it's time to hatch, which could take any number of years/centuries/longer.
I'd highly doubt it because of the description and resulting effects of the mourning. Still, I like the concept, but if a celestial dragon was awakening, it would have had more of an affect on the world. It wouldn't be a regional event, more like a global event.
One thing someone quoted a while ago that I found very entertaining is this "you can pray to your shoe and gain divine spells" I am of course paraphrasing. But its true. You can believe in anything and gain divine spells, so in theory, anything can be a "god". That tree, those rocks, this spoon..
...dude, this is definately one of those things that is entirely justifiable by saying:
It's MAGIC!
Did... did you just say "the dragon's fire would require the same radiation as the sun"?
...dude, this is definately one of those things that is entirely justifiable by saying:
It's MAGIC!
As a DM, thats fine. But as a player it isn't an acceptable answer. The material plane follows set laws. up isn't down. East isn't west. Other planes of reality do not follow those laws, so magic could be the core reason life exists as those planes don't always have access to the energies of a sun.
The material planes concept is based on our reality as its always been so. Magic isn't always the right answer. That again is a plot device and plot devices are a horrible mechanic in D&D.
But thats my opinion, if it works for you, then thats you. Nothing wrong with that. But I'm a fan of the standard D&D universal laws on the material plane.
Not bad, but the dragon's flames would have to produce the required radiation that the sun has.
The sun releases huge amount of radiation in the form of infrared light, also known as heat
I can easily believe the flames of a giant space dragon being blown onto a planet carries plenty of infrared radiation, visible light, and definately magical energies. :D I'd highly doubt it because of the description and resulting effects of the mourning. Still, I like the concept, but if a celestial dragon was awakening, it would have had more of an affect on the world. It wouldn't be a regional event, more like a global event.
The Day of Mourning could have been the first peck of the infant dragon trying to crack through it's shell [as demonstrated in any video of a bird/lizard being born], and would most certainly be regional. The Dead-Gray mists could actaully be left over/unabsorbed yolk or baby cosmic dragon flatulence as it struggles to break free.
Eberron is a magical world, this idea only makes it more magical :D
Now, the real question would be, what happens to you and your planet as it's ripped into chunks from the inside out...
It's like a program written for two separate platforms; the end result on the surface level is a similar interface and similar functionality, but the underlying mechanisms and implementation are different.
Also, Renchard, wouldn't a slice of pie be a more appropriate reward? ;)
Duke5150, I think the key here is that Eberron's material plane ISN'T supposed to be a one-to-one representation of real-world physics, with magic just sprinkled on top. It's a fantasy setting as much as any of the other planes are; fire, dreams, death, and war are representative of ties to philosophical concepts and other planes, not just the physical end result of molecules vibrating faster, neurons firing randomly, complex systems breaking down, and groups of sentient biological creatures vying for reproduction and dominance.
It's like a program written for two separate platforms; the end result on the surface level is a similar interface and similar functionality, but the underlying mechanisms and implementation are different.
Also, Renchard, wouldn't a slice of pie be a more appropriate reward? ;)
I'm aware of that and is one of the reasons I'm enjoying the setting. It isn't the normal setting. But the idea of eberron not having a sun is very odd. Despite the logical reasoning behind requiring a sun to sustain life.
But again, there are enough things to support eberron having a sun if one wants a sun and a large enough lack of material about the sun if one wants to not include one.
I'm not trying to discourage people from doing what they want, exactly the opposite, I encourage creative changes to ANY setting even to canon material. I personally have a hard time picturing a material world inhabited by humans among other races without a sun.
I would need an explaination of HOW life is supported without a sun. If it is by magic, then a better explaination than "its magic". Especially in a world filled with magic users, some of which I would imagine study the cosmos and would have discovered atleast some information.
All that said, I do discourage the lazy method of explaining things as "its the way it is" or "because it is" and most especially "its a plot device". None of which is the same as saying "its left open for the DM to decide."
I don't need an exact relationship from the real world and the fantasy world, but I do appreciate reliable connections that are understandable. Which translates into the general concepts of the multiverse in the dnd game.
Having no sun to me is like having no underground or no sky. It is acceptable if a reasonable explaination is provided. (example) Ravenloft has no sun IIRC, but different domains DO have their version of a sun if one is present. Explained by saying its the manifestation of a domain lord or the plane's will itself.
But again eberron material does indeed suggest it has a sun, but lacks enough direct dialog about the sun that it can be excluded if one wants it to be. (hope I explained my view better this time.);)
For my part, I've always assumed there's a sun, and I think this "maybe there isn't one!" discussion is more of a fanciful exercise of "how far can we take this?", along the lines of "if you take it literally, the description of the 'Dead' condition in 3.5 doesn't actually prevent you from fighting or moving about, since it doesn't carry with it any conditions like Helpless or Paralyzed" or "if you read between the lines you can find a lot of circumstantial evidence that Pelor is an Evil deity."
Having no sun to me is like having no underground or no sky. It is acceptable if a reasonable explaination is provided.
....So you familiar with Sigil? No sun, no underground(or at least no underdark), and no sky.:P
....So you familiar with Sigil? No sun, no underground(or at least no underdark), and no sky.:P
Yes and IIRC there is both an underground area and a sky area, although not in the way other settings have one. Also Sigil is a unique concept in the DnD universe. It was always the one exception to all the rules.
Yeah, I totally get what you're saying now.
For my part, I've always assumed there's a sun, and I think this "maybe there isn't one!" discussion is more of a fanciful exercise of "how far can we take this?", along the lines of "if you take it literally, the description of the 'Dead' condition in 3.5 doesn't actually prevent you from fighting or moving about, since it doesn't carry with it any conditions like Helpless or Paralyzed" or "if you read between the lines you can find a lot of circumstantial evidence that Pelor is an Evil deity."
Dude both of the examples are awesome. I'v never heard of the evil pelor concept but after reading through a few pages I lol'd. Especially the guy who claims to worship pelor in real life. LOL!
As for the Being able to move around and fight while dead (-10hp) I find that funny and could see how that could play out.
DM's "your character takes 25 damage"
PC #1 " That put me over -10, I'm dead!"
PC #2 "Dude, that sucks! Looks like you're S.O.L"
DM " Ok, roll initiative for this combat round"
PC #1 rolls initiative
DM " what are you doing? You're dead, remember?"
PC #1 " And."
DM " So that means you're out of the combat until someone can raise you!"
PC #1 " Says who? According to this resource, being dead does not say anything about not being able to fight or move! Oh, By the way, look, I rolled a 10. I go first!"
PC #2 "lol"
DM " Wtf!"
....So you familiar with Sigil? No sun, no underground(or at least no underdark), and no sky.:P
Sigil is also a doughnut shaped city sitting on top an infinitely tall spire at the centre of the infinitely large multiverse. The fact that it has no sun or sky to speak of is really the least of the weird things about the City of Doors.
As for Eberron I'd posit that is heliocentric, rather than geocentric, largely because its a base assumption about most settings that don't specifically call out something different.
Yes and IIRC there is both an underground area and a sky area, although not in the way other settings have one. Also Sigil is a unique concept in the DnD universe. It was always the one exception to all the rules.
No it wasn't a unique concept. Traditionally, no setting has had a scientific solar system. All of them are composed of a sun and a solar system contained within a crystal sphere. The air of space is breathable. The stars are cracks in the crystal sphere, and can be used to travel from sphere to sphere in spelljammers.
Even if you ignore spelljammer, there is still Sigil, every single plane that is not a prime material plane, and the domains of dread. It should be noted, the domains of dread were landmasses floating inside magical mist. No sun. No spherical planet. Nothing of that sort.
Stop trying to bring science into a fantasy. Does Eberron have a sun? Yes. It has a ball of light that rises during the day and sets during the night. Is this circular object actually a sphere of gaseous fire ala our contemporary understanding of a "star?" its up to the DM. It can be. It can also be a flat disk of magical light, or the corpse of a dragon, or anything else the DM wants it to be.
This is a FANTASY. Fantasies are not beholden to the laws of science or reality. Fantasies are beholden to myth and mythological reference. In the fantasy, myth is real.
No it hasn't.
As far as I remember, it did have a sewer area and it did have a space above the tallest structures. Thats an underground area and sky area to me. I also said IIRC. Planescape was never one of my focuses. Although true, it does not have a sky, its the city. Also I'm not even sure if Sigil is on the material plane. I just don't remember and I havn't looked at my 2e planescape stuff in years.
Even if you ignore spelljammer, there is still Sigil, every single plane that is not a prime material plane, and the domains of dread. It should be noted, the domains of dread were landmasses floating inside magical mist. No sun. No spherical planet. Nothing of that sort.
I never said ravenloft had a sun. I said that it was largely up to the domainlord who shaped the domain. Again, Ravenloft was not a focus of mine but I remember some of the domains having a sun or what appeared to be a sun concealed by clouds.
Stop trying to bring science into a fantasy. Does Eberron have a sun? Yes. It has a ball of light that rises during the day and sets during the night. Is this circular object actually a sphere of gaseous fire ala our contemporary understanding of a "star?" its up to the DM. It can be. It can also be a flat disk of magical light, or the corpse of a dragon, or anything else the DM wants it to be.
Stop trying to tell me how to enjoy fantasy. I'v not told anyone not to do something, so back off. I'v as much right to include whatever I like as anyone else and just because you don't like it doesn't mean jack to me. Take your foul attitude elsewhere. I'm trying to have a discussion on something, providing the reasons I believe something so other understand it. Those reasons are based on what has been in the game/settings.
This is a FANTASY. Fantasies are not beholden to the laws of science or reality. Fantasies are beholden to myth and mythological reference. In the fantasy, myth is real.
Well thats YOUR description of Fantasy and theres nothing wrong with that, but your description doesn't mean its the one single view shared by all. Its an expression of ideas, not a dictatorship.
Stop trying to tell me how to enjoy fantasy. I'v not told anyone not to do something, so back off. I'v as much right to include whatever I like as anyone else and just because you don't like it doesn't have mean jack to me. Take your foul attitude elsewhere. I'm trying to have a discussion on something, providing the reasons I believe something so other understand it. Those reasons are based on what has been in the game/settings.
Well thats YOUR description of Fantasy and theres nothing wrong with that, but your description doesn't mean its the one single view shared by all. Its an expression of ideas, not a dictatorship.
Actually, Duke...Everytime you've posted to this thread about Science and a world needing scientific fact, I feel as if you are trying to impose your need for rational scientific laws of reality into MY games. I simply questioned "Why do we need suns or science?" because in truth, we don't need either of them. And you always respond with something or other that involves science and needing a sun.
Does Eberron have a sun? More than likely, I've never thought about it, and I still, really don't care. It's not important. Will I continue to use terms like "Dusk", "Sun-up" and "Sunset"? Yes, because I don't care if the sun is real or not in the world, it's a relative term to help my players measure the passage of time in game and give them a sense of what a given scene looks like.
The same thing goes for most peoples games. I've yet to encounter a DM who tells me I need to move my bowels at least once a day and asks me where I do my buisness. I've yet to encounter a DM who feels the need to describe what my trail rations taste like unless it's a plot point. I've yet to encounter a DM who tells me "It's bright out, but there is no Sun" unless it's a plot point. Simply put, in general when dealing with pulp fantasy, such things are really trivial.
So Does Eberron have a sun? Maybe. Does it matter? No, because life goes on regardless. Where does heat come from? I dunno...there's a magical Draconic armadillo that's got 14 different dragonmarks inscribed on it's shell playing Dance Dance Revolution in the core of the planet. Earthquakes are when it falls off the dance pad. Why do leaves flutter to the ground when rocks just fall? I dunno. Is it wind resistance? No, it's tiny invisible pixies from Thelanis. They like the way leaves look better than rocks, so flit to them and try to catch them.
In the end the question really comes down to "Do Physics matter?" and the overwhelming response is "No, not really. So long as the world is believable enough."
Actually, Duke...Everytime you've posted to this thread about Science and a world needing scientific fact, I feel as if you are trying to impose your need for rational scientific laws of reality into MY games. I simply questioned "Why do we need suns or science?" because in truth, we don't need either of them. And you always respond with something or other that involves science and needing a sun.
Well if by my asking questions and posting my personal opinion somehow makes you think that I am trying to force my views into your game, then I don't really see the point in discussion. You're going to take everything the wrong way if thats the case. But my above post still stands. I'v not told anyone how to run their game or what to include. Regardless of how someone perceived my post. Infact I'v said I encourage creativity.
In the end the question really comes down to "Do Physics matter?" and the overwhelming response is "No, not really. So long as the world is believable enough."
Overwhelming response brought on by two people? I don't think that is considered overwhelming. Its personal taste. In order for a world to be believable, these things have to get discussed. Correct? What if one of your players wishes to study the sun or other real world concepts. They get ignored?
People should run/play the game to their level of enjoyment. If others don't like it, too damn bad. Correct? Well the same goes for me. I will continue to ask questions and post opinions others may not like and some people may overreact. Doesn't matter. This is a place for discussion on the topics at hand. We can continue to discuss MY personal views and my desire to make a world believable and how certain people are bothered by it or we can get back on topic.
[edit] Also science plays a big part and is far from uncommon in Dungeons and Dragons, from smithing armor and weapons to cooking. You have to describe things in ways people can relate to. Putting a lump of iron in an easy bake oven and pulling out a crafted sword might sound cool, but it will not appeal to many people who like the process. If science was not involved in the game, then the sun would be pointless beyond scenic descriptions and a mechanic to produce daylight. People enjoy realism with their fantasy, this is why we have seasonal weather changes, waxing/wanning moons, tidal effects, weather effects and more. Its part of the game as much as fictional fantasy is. Maybe I just enjoy it more than the common player and I like to explore it deeper than the common DM. Maybe not. In what way is that wrong? Thats correct, its not wrong at all.
Well if by my asking questions and posting my personal opinion somehow makes you think that I am trying to force my views into your game, then I don't really see the point in discussion. You're going to take everything the wrong way if thats the case. But my above post still stands. I'v not told anyone how to run their game or what to include. Regardless of how someone perceived my post. Infact I'v said I encourage creativity.
It's not just that you post your oppinions good sir, but it is also that you tend to add in your own quips that imply, at least to me, that you believe that this game can not be enjoyed by anyone unless it has science added to it. An excellent example of this is when Jimmifett posited the idea that perhaps the sun is some sort of Fire-breathing Mother Dragon and you replied,
Not bad, but the dragon's flames would have to produce the required radiation that the sun has.
Saying that the Dragon's Flames would have to produce the "required radiation" that the sun has beyond the light and heat that Jimmifett described implies that you find his model faulty and in need of your own corrections. In the end, as long as the Sun has the same observable effects in Eberron as it does on Earth, I see no need to go into the details of why such is the case.
Overwhelming response brought on by two people? I don't think that is considered overwhelming. Its personal taste. In order for a world to be believable, these things have to get discussed. Correct? What if one of your players wishes to study the sun or other real world concepts. They get ignored?
I believe you to be part of the overwhelming response. as you stated in the post that I quoted from
I'v as much right to include whatever I like as anyone else
This argument means, basically, that nothing matters about how YOU run a game, so long as I am the one running the game. So, do Physics matter? No. Can the DM make it matter? If he chooses to do so, yes. But because it is up to the DM to make things like Real World Physics matter, then in the grand scheme of things, they really don't matter, so long as the game is fun and allows for suspension of disbelief.
Also, if one of my players was to take up the role of someone studying the sun or other real world concepts, I would allow them to take the time honored approach of the Scientific Method.
The player would come up with a hypothesis for why something occurs, test it repeatedly, and report his findings. In this case, gravity can be explained as either "The world itself exerts some amount of force on individual objects and pulls them towards it's center, which is why things don't simply float away." or "The sky, being fluid and free, despises that which has a good solid mass, and so struggles to push all such things away from itself. This is why objects such as boxes or dwarves fall to the ground. However, the sky has a particular liking for light objects such as leaves and paper, and thus will occasionally stir them up with a gust of wind, simply to watch them dance."
If two separate scientists came up with those theories simultaneously in my game, and then asked me who's correct, I'd simply smile and say "Yes." because as far as I'm concerned they're both correct. They've built up a case and supported it with repeatable controlled examinations.
Is it real world physics? No, but it's science, so I will admit that Science has a place in many games, though I still hold that Current Scientific Theories about Earth hold about as much bearing on fantasy worlds as Fantasy World Concepts hold on Earth.
People should run/play the game to their level of enjoyment. If others don't like it, too damn bad. Correct? Well the same goes for me. I will continue to ask questions and post opinions others may not like and some people may overreact. Doesn't matter. This is a place for discussion on the topics at hand. We can continue to discuss MY personal views and my desire to make a world believable and how certain people are bothered by it or we can get back on topic.
I believe the Original topic was answered some time ago, and most people believe that Yes, Eberron has some sort of sun.
" Posting my opinions are not my way of trying to force people to "fix" their vision of the game. If anyone misinterprets my views due to bad wording (not spending 10 minutes thinking of how to word something perfectly) or any other reasons, I apologize for the miscommunication. I find nothing wrong with how someone choses to run their game or what they include in their game as long as it doesn't rob the players of their fun."
That being said, Science is as much a part of Dungeons and Dragons as mythical fiction is. It has a place in every setting. I'm not a science buff personally, but I like ideas to make sense when I present them to my groups. I do not explain things as "its the way it is" because I believe that is a lazy way of DMing. It might work for others but not for me. I also do not believe that I am the greatest player/DM in the entire universe and all should bow down and suckle my toenail.
I encourage people to play/run games however they like and have fun. I encourage people to discuss their different views and ideas even if they are not agreeable with everyone. Differences make the world great. We call it variety.
Now I hope I made myself clear.
As for this comment
Not bad, but the dragon's flames would have to produce the required radiation that the sun has.
I should have worded it better like
Not bad, but IMO the dragon's flames would have to produce the required radiation that the sun has if you want to make it more realistic. But thats just my opinion.
Although I hate having to make every single post "Politically Correct" for people who may be a bit sensitive to general opinion posts. I guess I need to add a disclaimer to my sig.;)
Reminds me of myself when I was very hesitent about fantasy. Until very recently, say 5 years ago, I was a pure modern or sci-fi type person. I didn't like fantasy bc , as i presume Duke feels, certain parts flew against or simply unexplained satisfactory to my scifi tastes. The political intrigue and logical use of applied magic of Eberron allowed me to lower my self made barriers to fantasy and i've learned that sometimes i personally don't need to know the detailed processes of the setting if the story is good. There was a time i wouldn't touch FR with an 11 foot pole.
When I get into my character's head to think like him, I take into account all that character knows about the world. To him, the sun is just there. it comes up in the morning, and goes down at the night. My buddy the wizard insists that the world spins while the sun is stationary, and my brother in arms, the dragonborn, believes in a magical space dragon warming a planet-egg. My character thinks he belongs in the nearest sanitorium, but hey, that's the myth his culture tells. I know nothing about big balls of gas, that the air is composed of different elements, to what purpose anyone would create a uranium katana (or what uranium even is). In fact, until the Day of Mourning, my character has never questioned the possibility of the sun not rising in the morning.
Now, for the slightly better than layman science lesson:
Earth is heated externally by the full spectrum wavelength of light radiated from the sun. Light is both wave and particle, even if it's in the invisible part of the spectrum. When light hits something, it knocks around electrons to higher energy levels and agitates atoms. Heat is a measurement of the current agitation state of matter. The more something is agitated, the hotter it gets. Lots of light equals lots of agitated particles. Those agitated particles want to return to thier more stable electron energy levels and stop agitating, and thus shed off this excess energy in the form of light. Non-visible, low energy light we know as infrared heat.
At the same time, the earth is also heated internally from nuclear material created during supernovae (as heavy nuclear elements do not comes from fusion, which stops dead at iron), as well as the pressure of earth's gravity squeezing itself together. In fact, i read recently that there is evidence that the earth has not one, but two very close together cores that spin opposite directions and act as a massive pump pulling down matter and shooting it back up on the other side like one of those hot wheels car launchers, and that's where some of our tectonic movement may come from.
Now comes the silly factor.
Lets assume that the creation myths of eberron + the magic space dragon are true for a moment. Eberron gave it's body to restore life to the planet, acting as fertile ground, while encircling khyber. Lets presume that either khyber is the internal heat source of the world trying to melt it's way out, or that the beating heart of the baby cosmic dragon within the planet-egg is generating internal heat. This would have to be one big dragon, but there is a lot of internal space within a planet. If you factor in the radiated heat flowing from the mother space dragon, the compost material factor of the dead Eberron wyrm, and whichever source of internal planetary heat, you have all the ingredients to satisfy heat requirements for life on a planet.
Sure, it takes a leap to justify these conclusions, but no more so than ignoring the tidal forces of 11 non-axial moons not pulling the atmosphere itself from the surface of the planet, let alone that 12th one that is totally erratic in it's orbit. Or the imposiblity of Eberron having a stable axial tilt due to the twelve moons. Earth thanks it's stable axial tilt to the creation and tug of the single moon. It used to be unstable and change it's tilt wildly. Other real planets have stable axial tilts with more moons because the moons are all on an even axial plane, or are so large, the many lunar gravities mean squat.
-j
....So you familiar with Sigil? No sun, no underground(or at least no underdark), and no sky.:P
Yes, but note that the only native life is Razorvine, and that there is no life, and indeed no sun in Sigil (At least, before this edition. It might have changed). That's and it sits atop of a infinite point, which by definition of infinite, it can't.
Sigil pretty much denies all logic, anyway. :D
Posting my opinions are not my way of trying to force people to "fix" their vision of the game. If anyone misinterprets my views due to bad wording (not spending 10 minutes thinking of how to word something perfectly) or any other reasons, I apologize for the miscommunication. I find nothing wrong with how someone choses to run their game or what they include in their game as long as it doesn't rob the players of their fun.
Amen amen amen amen AMEN.
In another thread, I stated my opinion on something and how I houseruled it... people on this thread might remember the one...
And a disturbingly vocal group of people flamed me for trying to force my opinion on them, ironically trying to force their opinions on me in the process.
So again, amen =P
As for the sci-fi thing. The only real futuristic stuff I enjoy (or have tried) is alittle starwars (not a huge fan, but a fan nonetheless) and warhammer 40k.
My D&D background is almost all medieval or primitive settings like Darksun, Dragonlance and homebrewed systems. I'v dabbled in ravenloft and planescape although my groups never got into them much so I didn't run them often.
I'm a DM far more often than a player. Not many of my gaming buddies like to run games, 4 regular DM's and about 10 (if I have to) DM's. Many of my players own a single edition of the game (mainly 2e) and since I have almost everything ever made for most of the settings (Dragonlance, Darksun, ForgottenRealms, Eberron, Ravenloft, Planescape) I get stuck with the job. I enjoy it so its ok.
As such I like to discover as much detailed information as I possibly can rip from the minds of others. A good portion of the information I gain gets used as my players have come to enjoy testing me. Seeing how I can adapt to situations. I try to keep it believable, drawing from true facts. When that is not possible I simply pull things right out of my ass and hope for the best.:D
Back on topic. I like how you came up with the source of heat from Khyber or the cosmic egg. Neato stuff.
Amen amen amen amen AMEN.
In another thread, I stated my opinion on something and how I houseruled it... people on this thread might remember the one...
And a disturbingly vocal group of people flamed me for trying to force my opinion on them, ironically trying to force their opinions on me in the process.
So again, amen =P
It happens. I don't take anything personally, I just write it off to someone being passionate or maybe not having the best of days and instead of beating their wife and kids, they vent online. No worries. Or it could just be a misunderstanding. Its not easy to read emotion (jokes/sarcasm) in text. But somethings don't go over well with me and I fire a round off right back at the poster I'm replying to.
We can either sit down and have a brew together and discuss things or we can draw swords and roll initiative. Either way, no worries.
Also, without a sun to counter the gravitational pull Eberron has on its moons, those same satellites will crash into or fly off the planet.
Edit - Damn, ninja'd.
I like this Duke5150 guy
Sure, it takes a leap to justify these conclusions, but no more so than ignoring the tidal forces of 11 non-axial moons not pulling the atmosphere itself from the surface of the planet, let alone that 12th one that is totally erratic in it's orbit. Or the imposiblity of Eberron having a stable axial tilt due to the twelve moons. Earth thanks it's stable axial tilt to the creation and tug of the single moon. It used to be unstable and change it's tilt wildly. Other real planets have stable axial tilts with more moons because the moons are all on an even axial plane, or are so large, the many lunar gravities mean squat.
-j
Not so huge a leap, actually. Jupiter has 8 "regular satellites" orbiting it, with the smaller moons closer in orbit AND supplying the dust that makes Jupiter's rings. This can also explain Siberys shards orbiting Eberron. Some of the moons might actually be body parts of Siberys that keep "shedding" shards around Eberron. Jupiter also has like over 50 smaller satellites orbiting it; captured detritus, so to speak. Anyways, Eberron's moons may not be all that close to the planet, except for Zarantyr, and for all we know, Eberron could be the size of Jupiter! :P
Lastly, I doubt all 12 moons of Eberron orbit in the same direction. I think some are orbiting in the prograde and others in retrograde. Opposing moons in their respective orbit paths might counteract each other's tidal influences, which allows for stable tidal forces for Eberron. Of course, when Zarantyr looms close, all hell may break loose, hence its connection to storms and such.
I'm not sure what its called in D&D terms, I can't remember offhand. But I'll call it the "believability factor".
Internal consistency?
Universal laws of the multiverse apply to basically every setting ever released except maybe ravenloft.
Do those laws prohibit travelling in time and do strange stuff concerning teleportation and the speed of light?
Question, How does life exist without a sun on this world?
Answer, the gods will it to be so. Think of it as a plot device. (Bad form!)
Now I want to create a rogue planet that hurtles through the galaxy, life forming and existing due to the fact the core has a manifest zone to a fiery plane (Irian or something?). There's no atmosphere on the surface, but life does exist completely underground
Lastly, I doubt all 12 moons of Eberron orbit in the same direction. I think some are orbiting in the prograde and others in retrograde. Opposing moons in their respective orbit paths might counteract each other's tidal influences, which allows for stable tidal forces for Eberron. Of course, when Zarantyr looms close, all hell may break loose, hence its connection to storms and such.
Ouch, unsynchronized retrograde moons would be a tidal killer.Under the right circumstances, at the proper distance, you could have you sea tidally sucked out form under you on the thin side of a plane perpindicular to 2 moons on opposite sides of the planet. If both moons are moving towards a common angle, the opposite side of the planet would lower it's seas even faster, leaving your ship stranded on ocean floor, and just imagine the tidal surges and crashing waves on the near side of the planet
FYI: When the moon was young and much closer to earth, 22+ meter tides was a common thing, leaving shallow tidal pools inland for the sun to warm and amino acids to be in close enough proximity to each other to become proteins. Hurray moon!
Stop trying to tell me how to enjoy fantasy. I'v not told anyone not to do something, so back off. I'v as much right to include whatever I like as anyone else and just because you don't like it doesn't mean jack to me. Take your foul attitude elsewhere. I'm trying to have a discussion on something, providing the reasons I believe something so other understand it. Those reasons are based on what has been in the game/settings.
Sorry, my foul attitude? Me telling people how to play? Every time somebody posted something in this thread that did not add science into their fantasy you told them that their explanation was "not acceptable," because it didn't include something like "radiation" or "believability factor." You want science in your fantasy games, you go right ahead and add it. But don't pretend its something that is required by the genre. Its not. And there is not a single thing in the game or setting which suggests that such scientific conventions should, by default, be a factor in any given D&D world. Hell, 12 moons on a livable planet? People here are already telling you what that would likely do to a world grounded in scientific conventions.
I happen to like worlds that include the aesthetic semblance of reality. Suns. Moons. Grass. Gravity. Eberron seems to have those. But that doesn't mean they have to be explained in scientific terms. It doesn't matter that a real planet probably could not have a survivable ecosystem with 12 moons in orbit. It doesn't matter what Eberron's "sun" actually is. Because, honestly, there is nothing wrong with a fantasy world being flat, and being the center of a universe filled with other flat objects. There is nothing wrong with it being spherical either. But, whatever the case, the conventions of fantasy are not the conventions of science fiction, even if you personally prefer fantasies that include science fiction conventions.
There is nothing wrong with including or excluding things as long as there is a good reason and explaination for it. DM's might not care because it saves them work, but the player's might take that as the signs of a lazy DM who does not want to put forth the effort to make things make sense.
And I'v not once told anyone their ideas were not acceptable or wrong. If you read something I posted and understood it differently than what was meant, then thats on you. I'v already replied to those points in my earlier posts. Now I'm no longer going to reply to these accusatory posts because they are not only counter productive and off topic but they're a waste of time.
I'v made my stance clear on the subject and anything further would just be monotonous repetition. Enjoy your game the way you like and I will do the same.
There is nothing wrong with including or excluding things as long as there is a good reason and explaination for it. DM's might not care because it saves them work, but the player's might take that as the signs of a lazy DM who does not want to put forth the effort to make things make sense.
Or they might take it as a sign of someone DMing a fantasy world which, to be honest, lacks the technology to really know anything about the solar system one way or another.
Or they might take it as a sign of someone DMing a fantasy world which, to be honest, lacks the technology to really know anything about the solar system one way or another.
On eberron? With wizards magic and dragons studying the prophecy and how everything connects to it? Gatekeepers and their observitories? Eberrons high magic and they don't have a means to study the sun? I find that hard to believe. Magic and Magic items take the place of technology, Psionic study, divine study. There are plenty of ways to reason the ability to learn about reality beyond the world. Gating in elemental energy from the sun or harnessing solar energy through paranormal means wouldn't suprise me considering the volume of fantastical events that happen on eberron.
Yes, on Eberron, where their technology is still by far and large not anywhere near that of modern times. Yes, on Eberron, where some of their advances "sort of" put them in an equivalent era of the 1800's or so, but where the vast majority of their technology still exists in the era of the middle ages. Yes, in Eberron, where the source texts state that house Sivis has the technology to prove that Eberron itself is spherical, but the source text also implies that no one else can really confirm it. Yes, on Eberron, where the nature of their technology makes it more likely that they will know about the planes then the stars and the solar system. Yes, on Eberron, where the world has 12 fairly large moons (which would, scientifically, render the planet inhospitable to human life).
I guess we just have to agree to disagree on this.;)
The Great A'Tuin frowns upon these physics discussions in a fantasy world context
I was just getting worried about no one mentioning that as I was reading the thread :D
After a brainstorming session with one of my groups I use to DM on "How can an airsip fly?" we really stopped caring about the the scientific reasoning on why things work the way they do in Eberron. It simply was just to much of a distraction from the game itself, though that aforementioned brainstorming session did produce some pretty cool airship maps and diagrams with all the plumbing and details worked out.
As far as the sun and system goes, it never came up though I did have something planed in case of Spelljamming-esque things occurring. Basically, Eberron was a single planet system orbiting a smallish yellow star where everything else was annihilated in a magic cataclysm around the time of the Age of Demons. The reason Eberron continues to have a ring despite its small sizw is because of the weird gravitational effect of the 12 moons and a strong magic field allow Eberron to capture solar debris and for the most part put it in orbit. Sometimes the bigger chunks still break through and we have a Rings of Storms situation on our hands. When questioned on how or why this works, the common response is "PFM", or Pure Freakin' Magic. I am, after all, a mechanic and not a astro physicist.
The sun which is a manifestation of Irian (aka the Eternal Day) was created by the couatls sacrifice to win the war with the demons.
possibly It was the positive energy of the sun's light that drove them back to Khyber.
The dragons attacked the undying court because they are tapping (depleting) the force that forced the fiends out of Eberron.
My theory is that there was no sun during the first age (dragons have darkvision).
The sun which is a manifestation of Irian (aka the Eternal Day) was created by the couatls sacrifice to win the war with the demons.
possibly It was the positive energy of the sun's light that drove them back to Khyber.
The dragons attacked the undying court because they are tapping (depleting) the force that forced the fiends out of Eberron.
See, this is an example of a neat and interesting inclusion of the sun in Eberron. It includes all the necessary components of fantasy. Its based on myth. It ties into the plot hooks of Eberron as opposed to the ramifications of science. I give this theory my thumbs up.
My theory is that there was no sun during the first age (dragons have darkvision).
The sun which is a manifestation of Irian (aka the Eternal Day) was created by the couatls sacrifice to win the war with the demons.
possibly It was the positive energy of the sun's light that drove them back to Khyber.
The dragons attacked the undying court because they are tapping (depleting) the force that forced the fiends out of Eberron.
Yup, a very cool and interesting idea.
The Great A'Tuin frowns upon these physics discussions in a fantasy world context.
And that's why I could never bring myself to read those books. That's just stupid. Yeah, it's a fantasy world, but when you really start screwing with basic non-magical physics, that's when I lose interest. When magic isn't actively involved, I prefer that things operate in accordance with the laws of reality. So, my game worlds, sun is center of solar system, planets revolve around it, with their moons, and the whole mess is moving through a galaxy that's moving through the universe.
And don't get me started on alchemy! Alchemy has always been pseudoscience. Hell, it may have been the grandfather of science. Curious people wanting to find out what makes the world tick used alchemy to deconstruct/manipulate matter. Astrology and astronomy both operate on the same principle; that of observing celestial bodies and trying to figure out what is going on in the freakin' universe. Magic, science, they're both just words for the same sh*t. It's all matter and energy, with universal rules dictating the existence of gravity and *gasp* bio-organisms. Last I checked, Eberron's agricultural farms still needed water, sunlight, and all that jazz. That's science.
And that's why I could never bring myself to read those books. That's just stupid. Yeah, it's a fantasy world, but when you really start screwing with basic non-magical physics, that's when I lose interest. When magic isn't actively involved, I prefer that things operate in accordance with the laws of reality. So, my game worlds, sun is center of solar system, planets revolve around it, with their moons, and the whole mess is moving through a galaxy that's moving through the universe.
@Salla specifically that's a parody fantasy world. It is meant not to make sense that's kinda the joke.
I think that anyone that hate or love Terry Pratchett's discworld or Larry Niven's ringworld should read Strata.
Strata spoiler
A group of science fiction type explorers crush on the "magical" world of discworld and try to investigate it scientifically.
There is nothing wrong with including or excluding things as long as there is a good reason and explaination for it. DM's might not care because it saves them work, but the player's might take that as the signs of a lazy DM who does not want to put forth the effort to make things make sense.
[I]DM:[/i] The angry wizard raises its staff toward you, mutters an incantation, and a huge blazing ball of fire is hurled toward you, blowing up in your midst!
Player: How?
DM: Excuse me?
Player: How is a ball of fire ignited, propelled, and the explodes? First of, we're in the material plane, so there's no way that the ambient oxygen concentration is alone sufficient to ignite, let alone maintain, a blazing fire without some additional fuel! Even ignoring that, how can such a ball be propelled in the air while conserving any semblance of shape, it'd just dissipate in every direction! And having it explode? Seriously? A wide open fire, exploding all of a sudden? It's not as if it was in a compressed environment, so why does it explode? I'd really like to know the rational behind all of that.
DM: Well, it's magic fire, fueled by magic energy.
Player: What, AGAIN with the "It's magic!" explanation? That's your answer to everything! Pffft... lazy DM...
[I]DM:[/i] The angry wizard raises its staff toward you, mutters an incantation, and a huge blazing ball of fire is hurled toward you, blowing up in your midst!
Player: How?
DM: Excuse me?
Player: How is a ball of fire ignited, propelled, and the explodes? First of, we're in the material plane, so there's no way that the ambient oxygen concentration is alone sufficient to ignite, let alone maintain, a blazing fire without some additional fuel! Even ignoring that, how can such a ball be propelled in the air while conserving any semblance of shape, it'd just dissipate in every direction! And having it explode? Seriously? A wide open fire, exploding all of a sudden? It's not as if it was in a compressed environment, so why does it explode? I'd really like to know the rational behind all of that.
DM: Well, it's magic fire, fueled by magic energy.
Player: What, AGAIN with the "It's magic!" explanation? That's your answer to everything! Pffft... lazy DM...
Yet another misunderstanding taken to the extreme. lol, yet it continues to entertain me that wanting a bit of reality in my fiction somehow translates to everything needing a scientific explaination. People are taking it way to far and thats fine with me since its not what I meant.
Magical spells fueled by arcane energy and a constant cosmic body are not the same. I don't know how old most of you are or how old your DM's and gaming friends are nor what their tastes are or how long they have been playing fictional rpg's. Mine are aging adults (25-65)and have been playing for 20+ years, who enjoy the unexplainable as much as the next nerd . But they also enjoy things that make sense and mysteries they can solve without discovering the resulting solution = unknown paranormal explaination.
Its magic, is done often enough in my games and have no lack of unexplained mysteries nor do I have an overwhelming sense of reality in my games. I like to balance it out and that means including key components, be it science, magic, psionics or what have you.
If I wanted to run shadowrun, I would. If I wanted to run a CSI rpg, I would. I run dungeons and dragons and include a balance of fact and fiction. YOU may not enjoy that, but my players do and THAT is what matters to me.;)
If you'll bear with me, though, I'd like to ask your opinion on a hypothetical situation. What if it was cannon, in the books, that the Dragons of the first age, as part of their war with the Demons, constructed a magical artifice and launched it into orbit. This artifice was the single most massive thing constructed by anyone on the face of Eberron ever. It was a spherical latice of brass, adamantium, mithral, and dragon shards, all powered in the center by one dragon's immortal soul. This dragon sacrificed her life to power the artifice and send it into orbit, where it ignited in an eternal conflagration of light and hope, literally bringing the light of Day to Eberron.
So what if the sun was actually just a massive orbiting satelite powered by the mortal dragon who became known in legend as Dol Arrah, Sovereign of Sacrifice and Sun? Would that ruin the setting for you, if it was cannon lore? I'm just curious. I am in no way trying to convince you that it shouldn't bother you, I'm just trying to see if I understand.
I was in the same position as AvonRekaes, and while you might think that adding "IMO" to every post where you edit someone's idea is being "PC" and adding extra work, I think it must be said that since this is a purely text based communication system, your words are all we have to work on. We have no tone and no gestures to make sense of your comments. Thus when you said "Not bad, But it would have to..." it came across as "I like your idea, but it's flawed." rather than "I like your idea, but I would do it this way." You don't need to add IMO to every post you make, but also saying "if we misinterpret your words, it's our own fault" is going too far really. You have absolute control over what you type. It is up to you to figure out if what you're about to say may offend someone. I mean it's not as if you walk around cussing and spouting racial epithets and then telling people "That's not what I meant, but if you want to interpret it that way, it's not my fault!" right?
That being said, we can both agree that each person has a right to enjoy the game as they see fit. We can both agree that Eberron, indeed, has a Sun. We can both agree that Science has a place in fantasy. What I can not agree on you with is the use modern of scientific theories to explain phenomena that occur on Eberron. From my standpoint it really doesn't matter because I feel that knowing how the Sun works, how Gravity works, or how Photosynthesis works doesn't add anything to the game. Simply knowing that these things function is enough for every player I've come across.
To go back to gravity for a bit, I recently had a game session where a pair of PCs escaped from a squad of Emerald Claw soldiers. They were in Sharn, so they decided to jump off the side of the bridge and hope that someone casts feather fall on them. This plan relied on the principle of gravity to work, and magic to counteract some of that gravity. But neither of the players stopped to ask WHY they were falling, and just accepted that they were falling down towards the lower levels.
A wise man once told me "It doesn't matter how amazing your NPC's backstory is. If it never comes into play, you'll only waste your time writing it down."
My theory is that there was no sun during the first age (dragons have darkvision).
The sun which is a manifestation of Irian (aka the Eternal Day) was created by the couatls sacrifice to win the war with the demons.
possibly It was the positive energy of the sun's light that drove them back to Khyber.
The dragons attacked the undying court because they are tapping (depleting) the force that forced the fiends out of Eberron.
I too like that. Short, simple, and to the point.
While I certainly understand your position Duke, I'm wondering why it needs to be a block. When i originally responded and said to just take the "it's magic!" approach, it was because I got the feeling you were shooting down the dragon-flame-as-sun idea because it would need to be scientifically accurate. Maybe I just read your statement wrong.
If you'll bear with me, though, I'd like to ask your opinion on a hypothetical situation. What if it was cannon, in the books, that the Dragons of the first age, as part of their war with the Demons, constructed a magical artifice and launched it into orbit. This artifice was the single most massive thing constructed by anyone on the face of Eberron ever. It was a spherical latice of brass, adamantium, mithral, and dragon shards, all powered in the center by one dragon's immortal soul. This dragon sacrificed her life to power the artifice and send it into orbit, where it ignited in an eternal conflagration of light and hope, literally bringing the light of Day to Eberron.
So what if the sun was actually just a massive orbiting satelite powered by the mortal dragon who became known in legend as Dol Arrah, Sovereign of Sacrifice and Sun? Would that ruin the setting for you, if it was cannon lore? I'm just curious. I am in no way trying to convince you that it shouldn't bother you, I'm just trying to see if I understand.
Thats a great idea and I would make a character that worshipped the sun, use fire magic and had an affinity towards dragons. That would not ruin the setting for me at all nor would it promote any negative feelings from me. For one it would be an interesting and original idea with a very good explaination that was fun to read. I'd look forwards to MORE concepts like that.
*Snippers*
A wise man once told me "It doesn't matter how amazing your NPC's backstory is. If it never comes into play, you'll only waste your time writing it down."
You have nothing to apologize for. Difference of approach and opinion is what made things like dungeons and dragons possibe in the first place. Its what sparks discussion which leads to new and sometimes better ideas. Passion for those ideas leads to debate which shows that we all have something in common. We have a form of affection or love for our hobby. That is friggin awesome to me. That we can take time out of our schedules to discuss things that do not matter simply because they matter to us. Vanilla or Chocolate? Is there a right answer? No, but its still fun to discuss back and forth and after being a member of many forums, I'v learned that it can get heated due to passion and things get misunderstood which is ok. Misunderstandings can get solved.
So feel free to disagree with me, I encourage it because I am NOT always right in my views and when someone disagrees with me, I consider it and rethink my stance. Although my stance doesn't often change, sometimes it does for the better. I agree that I have to consider what I say might be offensive, but I can not see some of the things I say as offensive. I'm not a very sensitive person and I have a very, very thick skin. Plus this is only a hobby, we can have passion about it but have to put limits on how seriously we take this. Besides, someone will always be offended or find a way to be offended or pretend to be offended online. People like to be confrontational and overly dramatic in general, atleast online. So I don't take it seriously.
All my posts should be considered In My Honest Opinion, because realistically, thats exactly what they are. I'm no rules lawyer or canon-text lawyer. As for your players not caring why they're falling, I don't think (In-game) it has much to do with education for the characters, its more of common sense. But even in many settings and games, basic education is available. Gravity is nothing more than a theory in all honesty. Even WE don't know exactly why, we just use the theory and its been used for so long its considered fact. Is the hidden reasons why people need to breathe air important to a fictional game? Only when the players want to know and actively work to solve the question. My players do, well most. Some don't care and just want to remove monster limbs and smash heads.
So our experiences are different in that regard. For the most part, what I'v come across leads me to say, "yes, its important."
As for the wise man once said. I reply with, How can time be wasted when it was enjoyed? Do player backstories matter? Yup, to them and sometimes to the campaign. Without the pointless details of height/weight/eye color/hair color/ place of birth/common fears/desired goals, we would end up with a combat simulator and not an role playing game. My players have come up with some of the most original and entertaining backstories I'v ever heard of and I'v tied those into future adventures that revolved around them. Custom tailored to the characters, not just their race/class/stats/skills.
I approach everything in the hobby as a waste of time, since it doesn't matter. But since its enjoyable and people like it, none of its a waste of time. This maybe one of the reasons that I'v never had bored players. In the 18 years of running games, I'v never had a game end early without a good reason (gotta go pick up the kids) sort of reasons.
I'v been playing D&D for 23 years, so I'v had my fair share of different DM's and I'v tried to learn from their mistakes as well as my own. One often common mistake is when player's do not get into the depth of their characters fluff. If a character dies and the player doesn't really care as long as he/she gets to make a new pc at the same level, somethings wrong, atleast IMO. Backstory is VERY important and never a waste of time if its enjoyed.
But I'v rambled enough and even tooted my own horn a bit, so its time for me to shut up. Thanks for the reply!
If you'll bear with me, though, I'd like to ask your opinion on a hypothetical situation. What if it was cannon, in the books, that the Dragons of the first age, as part of their war with the Demons, constructed a magical artifice and launched it into orbit. This artifice was the single most massive thing constructed by anyone on the face of Eberron ever. It was a spherical latice of brass, adamantium, mithral, and dragon shards, all powered in the center by one dragon's immortal soul. This dragon sacrificed her life to power the artifice and send it into orbit, where it ignited in an eternal conflagration of light and hope, literally bringing the light of Day to Eberron.
So what if the sun was actually just a massive orbiting satelite powered by the mortal dragon who became known in legend as Dol Arrah, Sovereign of Sacrifice and Sun? Would that ruin the setting for you, if it was cannon lore? I'm just curious. I am in no way trying to convince you that it shouldn't bother you, I'm just trying to see if I understand.
That's actually been done in the sci-fi TV series, Andromeda. An advanced alien race built artificial suns, using pure carbon for the frame before igniting it. It was pretty neat. Of course, after a few thousand years, it started blinking on and off and needed maintenance. You could totally use that as a plot for Eberron. The sun artifact is malfunctioning and needs repair. :D
That's actually been done in the sci-fi TV series, Andromeda. An advanced alien race built artificial suns, using pure carbon for the frame before igniting it. It was pretty neat. Of course, after a few thousand years, it started blinking on and off and needed maintenance. You could totally use that as a plot for Eberron. The sun artifact is malfunctioning and needs repair. :D
I actually enjoyed that show for a little while.
As for the wise man once said. I reply with, How can time be wasted when it was enjoyed? Do player backstories matter? Yup, to them and sometimes to the campaign. Without the pointless details of height/weight/eye color/hair color/ place of birth/common fears/desired goals, we would end up with a combat simulator and not an role playing game. My players have come up with some of the most original and entertaining backstories I'v ever heard of and I'v tied those into future adventures that revolved around them. Custom tailored to the characters, not just their race/class/stats/skills.
I approach everything in the hobby as a waste of time, since it doesn't matter. But since its enjoyable and people like it, none of its a waste of time. This maybe one of the reasons that I'v never had bored players. In the 18 years of running games, I'v never had a game end early without a good reason (gotta go pick up the kids) sort of reasons.
I'v been playing D&D for 23 years, so I'v had my fair share of different DM's and I'v tried to learn from their mistakes as well as my own. One often common mistake is when player's do not get into the depth of their characters fluff. If a character dies and the player doesn't really care as long as he/she gets to make a new pc at the same level, somethings wrong, atleast IMO. Backstory is VERY important and never a waste of time if its enjoyed.
I agree with everything you've said here, but I think it was actually NPC, not PC backgrounds.
And I'd have to agree with that as well. Why spend the time on a NPC's background when the players never learn of it. Instead use that time developing the things you know you'll need. If no one in the party is a Solar-maniac, then it doesn't matter how it works. It just does. On the other hand if a character is specifically interested, then an explanation is required.
I agree with everything you've said here, but I think it was actually NPC, not PC backgrounds.
And I'd have to agree with that as well. Why spend the time on a NPC's background when the players never learn of it. Instead use that time developing the things you know you'll need. If no one in the party is a Solar-maniac, then it doesn't matter how it works. It just does. On the other hand if a character is specifically interested, then an explanation is required.
I agree, but 20 minutes to come up with and jot down a rough idea isn't really a waste of time. NPC background for me are generally a paragraph long and are more "what can this npc offer outside combat and what are its connections that can help its allies?" Unless its a major npc that will be the focus of campaigns like kings or legendary people or super villains which get a full paragraph or two of backstory, I normally just play it by ear and write down whatever falls out of my mouth at the time.
I personally work on D&D for atleast 1 hour every day, sometimes far longer. I work on many different things for many different settings. So I'v no problem with "wasting time". I get paid to waste time.:D Right now I'm running 5 different setting and 13 different games. (you wouldn't want to see my office, my room or all my folders.) I'v got probably two entire trees worth of paper, completely used, in my home. I write far too much and read even more.
Yeah for accomplishing nothing that matters! WOOHOO!
...the Dragons of the first age, as part of their war with the Demons, constructed a magical artifice and launched it into orbit. This artifice was the single most massive thing constructed by anyone on the face of Eberron ever. It was a spherical latice of brass, adamantium, mithral, and dragon shards, all powered in the center by one dragon's immortal soul. This dragon sacrificed her life to power the artifice and send it into orbit, where it ignited in an eternal conflagration of light and hope, literally bringing the light of Day to Eberron.
So what if the sun was actually just a massive orbiting satelite powered by the mortal dragon who became known in legend as Dol Arrah, Sovereign of Sacrifice and Sun? ...
Like! Yoink.
Especially you, Duke. Now I get that you're not actually opposed to fantastical elements, you just like them to be... plausible, I guess?
(Not really sure if an artificial sun counts as plausible, but I digress. :P)
This Eberron. There are 12 suns. There used to be 13, but one has mysteriously vanished.
Have Fun
I could have this wonderful story in my mind about Lady Maxine d'Cannith who fought in the last war, but manifested an Aberrant Mark and so went AWOL and fled into Tumbledown to become a Dream Lilly pusher who sells national secrets on the side...but if my players are being pursued by the Emerald Claw through Tavrick's Landing, trying to get onto an airship that's bound for Flamekeep, knowing anything about the dream lilly merchant with an aberrant dragonmark in Tumbledown other than the fact that she's there means that I could have spent my time and energy on some other, more important aspect of the story. If I never planned on having anything important happen in Tumbledown, then really, I wasted my time in coming up with an NPC that will never affect the game.
This is how I feel about the explanations of Natural Phenomena in my games because, as I stated, my players tend to not ask why something happens, as long as it makes sense.
I find it interesting though, Duke, that your players do ask why, or atleast you seem to imply that they do. I've never been in a group that's cared about such things, most of the people I play with either enjoy Combat or Social Interaction more than Scientific pursuits.
Why are all the explanations in the singular?
This Eberron. There are 12 suns. There used to be 13, but one has mysteriously vanished.
Have Fun
I have to ask, how would you handle the heat? IMO having 12 suns would cause major problems to nature and life in general.
@Duke & Lanthiel - Remember that the key part of the Quote is "if it never comes into play." Do I enjoy having backstory to important NPCs? Yes. I love my NPCs. But I'm not going to put the time into giving every serving girl, shop keeper, and Street Urchin selling flowers on the corner a backstory.
I could have this wonderful story in my mind about Lady Maxine d'Cannith who fought in the last war, but manifested an Aberrant Mark and so went AWOL and fled into Tumbledown to become a Dream Lilly pusher who sells national secrets on the side...but if my players are being pursued by the Emerald Claw through Tavrick's Landing, trying to get onto an airship that's bound for Flamekeep, knowing anything about the dream lilly merchant with an aberrant dragonmark in Tumbledown other than the fact that she's there means that I could have spent my time and energy on some other, more important aspect of the story. If I never planned on having anything important happen in Tumbledown, then really, I wasted my time in coming up with an NPC that will never affect the game.
This is how I feel about the explanations of Natural Phenomena in my games because, as I stated, my players tend to not ask why something happens, as long as it makes sense.
I find it interesting though, Duke, that your players do ask why, or atleast you seem to imply that they do. I've never been in a group that's cared about such things, most of the people I play with either enjoy Combat or Social Interaction more than Scientific pursuits.
I understand about the backstory, thats why most of the time, npc's like people in crowds don't have any backstory. Other times, farmer john who helps the player's with some hot food and a dry place to sleep in the bar doesn't really have a backstory and you just improvise. But when it comes to major npc's like Vol or the Keeper (Silver flame) or even a house leader, for me having a backstory can help shape how they will interact with the pc's or handle stressful situations. It can also lead to future adventure hooks.
As for my groups. Most of them have already done it all. So they are on constant look out for any hint. They are the sort that will look under each rock until they find a clue, they will listen at every door and will search every wall. Running games for them constantly pushes me to improve and come up with new material. Most of them, like my friend jake, has been playing D&D for over 20 years and he's a player, not a DM. He's as close to "professional player" as I'v ever seen and knows all the basic and advanced tricks. So I have to change things up while giving him enough of what he wants to keep him completely locked in to the game.
It all boils down to, I include it because they like it. They ask because they've learned after all the years of playing. I guess it just depends on the players interests and how long they have been playing. But you never know whats behinds a closed door until you check, so they never know the answer to a question until they ask. They always ask questions, so I have to have the answers.
Well! I'm glad everyone liked that idea :D
Especially you, Duke. Now I get that you're not actually opposed to fantastical elements, you just like them to be... plausible, I guess?
(Not really sure if an artificial sun counts as plausible, but I digress. :P)
Yup, I enjoy the plausable and the believable to set the tone for a setting. If it actually rains dogs and cats in eberron, I will ask the reason why. If it can't be explained one way, I will look for another. But I'm not opposed to crazy and inventive ideas, that is after all what D&D is about.
Have Fun
But when it comes to major npc's like Vol or the Keeper (Silver flame) or even a house leader, for me having a backstory can help shape how they will interact with the pc's or handle stressful situations. It can also lead to future adventure hooks.
And that's the NPC's Backstory coming into play.;)
And that's the NPC's Backstory coming into play.;)
Well thats the whole point. If you plan on using or might use a npc in the future for more than just a skill check, a backstory could help. Some of our DM's think a backstory has to be one to three or more pages long, but I'v always just said, its about the highlights and important points of a npc that matter. Something that is relevant to the purpose of including the npc in the first place. Thats why I say a paragraph or two is fine. It is after all, npc history and not a book report.
If a warrior npc, designed to aid the players in battle has a backstory about his love of flowers, yet the flowers never play a role in progressing the story, then its not needed. Still not a waste of time if the DM enjoyed writing it. But I would not take up my players time with something that does not help the story when that time could be better spent on something else story related.
On the other hand, if the players have an interest in flowers(for example) then that seemingly useless fluff can actually get the players more involved.
For me, backstories work. For others, they might not.
There's a holiday, too. "Sun's Blessing (15 Therendor): A celebration of Dol Arrah, and a day of peace on which enemies set aside their differences." (Eberron Campaign Guide, pg 243.)
Well thats the whole point. If you plan on using or might use a npc in the future for more than just a skill check, a backstory could help. Some of our DM's think a backstory has to be one to three or more pages long, but I'v always just said, its about the highlights and important points of a npc that matter. Something that is relevant to the purpose of including the npc in the first place. Thats why I say a paragraph or two is fine. It is after all, npc history and not a book report.
If a warrior npc, designed to aid the players in battle has a backstory about his love of flowers, yet the flowers never play a role in progressing the story, then its not needed. Still not a waste of time if the DM enjoyed writing it. But I would not take up my players time with something that does not help the story when that time could be better spent on something else story related.
On the other hand, if the players have an interest in flowers(for example) then that seemingly useless fluff can actually get the players more involved.
For me, backstories work. For others, they might not.
Ahh, so true, so true.
See, if the sun orbited Eberron, then technically it would be a moon. And Eberron has exactly thirteen minus one moons. Twelve of the moons have well-known names and solid compositions, and the last one is lost. The sun has no name other than "the sun", so it's not one of the twelve; it's right there, so it isn't lost. Therefore the sun is not a moon, therefore the sun does not orbit Eberron. QED.
Also, if the sun were the thirteenth moon, it would be associated with the Mark of Death and that's just weird.
Eberron is flat, and the sun, moons and Ring of Siberys are just there, hanging out in the sky. The moons are party animals that dance around all night, but the sun is so, like, "Look at me! I'm RADIANT!" and full of himself that everybody else just kind of leaves when he comes out.
Doesn't sounds like a very fun basis for a campaign to me. But then maybe thats exactly what your players like, which is one reason fiction is so much fun. What can be considered B rate to some can be 100% entertainment to others.
Then again, I've always thought of Xoriat as being relatively small... there's got to be a reason other than boredom for them to be invading places. Although I suppose that fits with Xoriat being a sort of Halley's Comet...
If it actually rains dogs and cats in eberron, I will ask the reason why.
This has happened before. Druidic Orcs and Goblins solved the problem back then.
Next time this happens, we have 4 artificers from Sharn and thier pet gelatinous cube:
Sharn Artificers
Pietr: "This city is headed for a disaster of prophetical proportions"
Sharn Mayor: "What do you mean 'Prophetical'?"
Rey: "What he means is Draconic Prophecy, Mr. Mayor, real wrath of the Dark Six type stuff."
Pietr: "Exactly."
Rey: "Fire and brimstone coming down from the skies! Rivers and seas boiling!"
Agon: "Forty years of darkness! Earthquakes, volcanoes..."
Windstone: "Even more dead rising from the grave!"
Pietr: "Blood Magic sacrifice, dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria!"
Pietr: "This city is headed for a disaster of prophetical proportions"
Sharn Mayor: "What do you mean 'Prophetical'?"
Rey: "What he means is Draconic Prophecy, Mr. Mayor, real wrath of the Dark Six type stuff."
Pietr: "Exactly."
Rey: "Fire and brimstone coming down from the skies! Rivers and seas boiling!"
Agon: "Forty years of darkness! Earthquakes, volcanoes..."
Windstone: "Even more dead rising from the grave!"
Pietr: "Blood Magic sacrifice, dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria!"
This has happened before. Druidic Orcs and Goblins solved the problem back then.
Next time this happens, we have 4 artificers from Sharn and thier pet gelatinous cube:Sharn Artificers
Pietr: "This city is headed for a disaster of prophetical proportions"
Sharn Mayor: "What do you mean 'Prophetical'?"
Rey: "What he means is Draconic Prophecy, Mr. Mayor, real wrath of the Dark Six type stuff."
Pietr: "Exactly."
Rey: "Fire and brimstone coming down from the skies! Rivers and seas boiling!"
Agon: "Forty years of darkness! Earthquakes, volcanoes..."
Windstone: "Even more dead rising from the grave!"
Pietr: "Blood Magic sacrifice, dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria!"
Really? I always saw Xoriat as the vast inexpliable unreality beyond the edge of known existance. From their perspective, normal reality would be like blemishes. Thats why you usually find them corrupting places. They're trying to "fix" us.
That's cool too - I just do it my way because I like to play in a universe of campaign worlds, rather than an isolated quantum pocket wherein each individual campaign world is the center of its own little universe (which has tended to be the default for D&D worlds). As a result, I have a big (and rather convoluted) cosmology worked out that allows each campaign world to have its individual planar system, with some limited overlap for worlds that have planes in common.
I've toyed with the idea that the Far Realm can be used as a transitive plane. If you've ever played Warhammer 40k and are familiar with the fluff, it'd be like a more lovecraftian version of the Warp.
Using my previous example of reality being a "blemish", you could have several "blemishes" of reality, each surrounding a world of intelligent creatures. And since time has no or different meaning in the Far Realm, you could pilot a ship through the insanity from one blemish to another faster than the speed of light.
)Now I really want to play Dragonstar... but everybody else I play with doesn't like getting science in their fantasy
(which is just absurd... they're all Doctor Who fans, after all...)Plain old yellow?
Red? (Dol Arrah is a red dragon after all)
White? (the world is only 10 million years old - the sun is quite young)
Platinum?
Since I think we've kind of established that most of us think Eberron has a sun, and only one sun at that, what color do you think it is?
Plain old yellow?
Red? (Dol Arrah is a red dragon after all)
White? (the world is only 10 million years old - the sun is quite young)
Platinum?
I'd honestly go with yellow, just like ours. The only reason that nothing in the setting really implies its anything other than a yellow star just like our own sun. As far as I know Eberron has a blue sky, which is caused by light refraction from a yellow star entering the atmosphere. As things go I always assume that phsyical properties of a setting is identical to our own as a baseline. Anything important, for example shorter or longer years, will be called as explicitly different.
And honestly, we don't really need to know the nature of the sun other then the fact that it's there. Not unless we're running Spelljammer and need a Crystal Sphere for Eberron. Which I'm planning, if only in a haphazard back burner sense.
I mean, we get along fine with there being two Keepers in Eberron. :P
Explain how creatures live deep in the earth or in the deepest parts of the ocean in real life. Same concept.;)
And with that comment you contradict yourself about without Sun life doesn't exist
But, we are talking about a fantasy world afterall.I'd honestly go with yellow, just like ours. The only reason that nothing in the setting really implies its anything other than a yellow star just like our own sun. As far as I know Eberron has a blue sky, which is caused by light refraction from a yellow star entering the atmosphere. As things go I always assume that phsyical properties of a setting is identical to our own as a baseline. Anything important, for example shorter or longer years, will be called as explicitly different.
I'm thinking of making the sun more yellow-orange, with more of a flame-like appearance (i.e. perceptible licks of flame around the periphery rather than a solid incandescent ball). Essentially, as if a fire-breathing dragon created it, powered it, or is it. I really like the idea that Dol Arrah sacrificed herself in some way to bring light to a dark world.
And with that comment you contradict yourself about without Sun life doesn't exist
Actually, I didn't. The same concept applies to life under the earths crust or in the deepest parts of the ocean, Khyber and the underdark are the same in that regards and thats how life can exist in those places. If you know why life can exist in the places the suns light, "light" doesn't touch, then you have your answer.;)