Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 mystrich Jul 28, 2008 22:00:35	This definitely has potential, even if I'd place it in the Mournland instead of in the Forest of Flesh. Imagine what Erandis would do if she found out that another Vol was alive (I forget if that is her mother or not), one who perhaps even has the Mark of Death. And if people can return, who or what else can? Fiends? Rajahs? Daelkyr?
#2 PJammaGod Jul 29, 2008 1:05:31	I find the idea of reclaiming Heroes of the past interesting to say the least. But better still how about the idea that it's all a lie. On the other hand if someone pretends to bring back these ancient evils and tries to blackmail various nations otherwise he'll let loose these "monsters", there's an interesting story. This nasty fellow might even do a couple of "displays" of power, using advanced illusions and some polymorphing magic to give the impression that the monsters of yore do exist and could obliterate the world.
#3 Alas Jul 29, 2008 7:32:59	Fantastic timing-- I'm starting up a new campaign soon. I can just see my players' reaction when I ask them, "So, do you want to play Lhazaar?" Fortunately, they've all played Square-Enix games, so a village full of amnesiac heroes will be easy for them to accept.
#4 ieattrollsforbreakfast Jul 29, 2008 12:24:40	'Wow' is all I can say to this article. The potential of Dolurrh's Dawn is so vast I can't help but think of plots and characters both sides of the screen. And if people can return, who or what else can? Fiends? Rajahs? Daelkyr? Ah, good point. I like the idea that one of the villagers is Belashyrra, Lord of Eyes, (or some other named daelkyr) just without all his symbionts attached. It certainly fits Mordain's theme. Perhaps he's conducting an experiment to see just how innate madness is to the daelkyr, or to see how quickly the daelkyr can subjugate the others. The Gatekeeper being just his strange way of making it 'fair'.
#5 naturax Jul 29, 2008 16:48:01	Sorry if I missed the link, but what are you talking about? It sounds awesome and I want to read it too! EDIT: Nevermind, I found it above. Thanks for the link!
#6 Alter_Boy Jul 29, 2008 17:22:11	Best. Eberron. Article. Ever. Ironically, a Forgotten Realms version of this would make the FR fans go bonkers with delight.
#7 angelus_obscura Jul 29, 2008 17:24:01	And if people can return, who or what else can? Fiends? Rajahs? Daelkyr? Mordain obviously created clones or simulacrums. However, I HIGHLY doubt he would be able to bring back fiends, rajahs, and ESPECIALLY the daelkyr. Why? Because he doesn't have DNA (hair, skin, bone, etc) samples of any of them!!! And even if he did have them, what makes you think the powers that affect mortals can affect immortal beings like Belashyrra? ...wow
#8 rekko Jul 29, 2008 17:43:22	Well... the article has spoken of some agents of the Chamber and even Inspired vessels. These beings are still mortals, but start to come close to aliens or fiends.
#9 angelus_obscura Jul 29, 2008 18:01:03	Well... the article has spoken of some agents of the Chamber and even Inspired vessels. These beings are still mortals, but start to come close to aliens or fiends. Yeah ... umm ... agents of the Chamber are mortal and connected to dragons not fiends. Inspired vessels will be brought back without the possessing quori spirits. Mordain isn't bringing back quori spirits and daelkyr. One is an incorporeal/invisible spirit and the other is an aberration that is godlike.
#10 rekko Jul 29, 2008 18:11:11	Has anyone else thought of including a double of Mordain himself in Dolurrh's Dawn? This could be one of the reasons why the real Mordain build this town. He wants to compare himself with the figures of history. He could also want to learn from them, acquire some of their skills maybe? Rekko
#11 Alter_Boy Jul 29, 2008 18:27:01	Has anyone else thought of including a double of Mordain himself in Dolurrh's Dawn? This could be one of the reasons why the real Mordain build this town. He wants to compare himself with the figures of history. He could also want to learn from them, acquire some of their skills maybe? Rekko Or it is the true Mordain, so conceited with his greatness that he created a town of history's most important figures in order to hobnob with his peers. Or maybe I'm thinking of Arnold J. Rimmer.
#12 mhacdebhandia Jul 29, 2008 19:46:37	Mordain may have created the town in order to discover how much of a great individual's potential is in their physical self as opposed to in their intangible soul - i.e., can you really recreate a great man like Galifar Wynarn by simply recreating his flesh, or does it take something more?
#13 mystrich Jul 29, 2008 22:18:23	Mordain obviously created clones or simulacrums. However, I HIGHLY doubt he would be able to bring back fiends, rajahs, and ESPECIALLY the daelkyr. Why? Because he doesn't have DNA (hair, skin, bone, etc) samples of any of them!!! And even if he did have them, what makes you think the powers that affect mortals can affect immortal beings like Belashyrra? ...wow And what if it's not Mordain who did it? A manifest zone in the forest, a natural effect from on of Mordain's creations, or just the effect of a Rajah who liked the forest as a cover to protect his magic from being seen from beings like the dragons. Or as the article says, the Vol there may even know what's going on. Perhaps she never died. Unable to cast another lich creation ritual after saving her daughter, she instead had to use some time altering spell (or perhaps some spell that would bring her back from the dead), which happened to affect more than just her. As I said, I'd have also placed it in the Mournlands instead. To the epic heroes of legend, it's horrors would be hardly more different than a wild animal attacking in the woods. The Mournland could bring back a Daelkyr, perhaps breaking a seal or two and free a Rajah, but also remove it's memories.
#14 Hellcow Jul 29, 2008 22:53:15	Or as the article says, the Vol there may even know what's going on. Perhaps she never died. Unable to cast another lich creation ritual after saving her daughter... While you certainly COULD put Erandis's mother in Dolurrh's Dawn, Ashalyn Vol is generations removed from her. Per the article, Ashalyn was born five thousand years ago - predating the Mark of Death itself by 1,800 years - and was one of the early founders of the faith that would become the Blood of Vol. She's one of the greatest necromancers of the line, but even if she regained her full memories, had no connection to the Emerald Claw or the Mark of Death; how she'd respond to the fate of her line is an interesting question. Note that she is not presented as having an evil alignment. To the epic heroes of legend, it's horrors would be hardly more different than a wild animal attacking in the woods. The key is that these people LOOK like the heroes of legend, but they only have limited access to the memories and skills of those heroes. This is covered on page 4 of the article (under "Using Dolurrh's Dawn") - the people of the village COULD be epic heroes if that's what serves the story, but they could also be 1st-level NPCs who just have the potential to become those heroes. As mhacdebhandia has suggested, it's quite possible that Mordain (assuming the village is in fact his creation) is curious to see if these people will indeed become legends again... or if, under these different circumstances, they will never reach that full potential.
#15 davethebrave371 Jul 30, 2008 1:11:42	I think it'd be especially interesting if someone got Ashalyn pregnant. Would it still take generations from her child for a Mark to take hold, or could it be with the next generation? Or will there be a Mark at all? Man, Ashalyn is, aside from Dorius Alyre Korran, my favourite one of the bunch.
#16 ambulacetus Jul 30, 2008 1:31:57	Wow, great article, it gave me many sinister campaign ideas. I had one idea for a potential story seed. What if this was some sort of sinister magical breeding project. If you put a bunch of young, fit humans (and presumably elves, dwarfs, etc...) together in the same place, well human (et al) nature will take over and you will probably start getting babies - this has already begun. What if Mordain was trying to breed all of these people together in a setting that would hone their skills. More then likely eventually you would get at least one child who is descended from most of these great heroes (at least all of those who are of compatible species but Mordain might be able to rig that as well). Such a child might not only have the benefits of such great heritage, but could be considered the heir apparent to many of the most powerful organizations in Khorvaire. Maybe Mordain is trying to breed Korvaire's savior, a puppet to rule a whole continent, or a replacement body with which to conquer the world. Just some thoughts.
#17 Hellcow Jul 30, 2008 1:39:56	I think it'd be especially interesting if someone got Ashalyn pregnant. Would it still take generations from her child for a Mark to take hold, or could it be with the next generation? Or will there be a Mark at all? Man, Ashalyn is, aside from Dorius Alyre Korran, my favourite one of the bunch. I think it's a valid question if Ashalyn or Jhazalaen could actually develop the marks of Death or Shadow themselves. They're of the appropriate bloodlines. And if Ashalyn did develop the Mark of Death, it would show once and for all that it's not simply a genetic mutation, but an intersection of blood and Prophecy together... that it's a matter of being of the line of Vol in the age in which the marks appear (raising the question of whether, if a marked character traveled back to, say, the empire of Dhakaan, their mark would become dormant). And if a marked Ashalyn disapproved of the direction her descendant has taken the Blood of Vol, it could be a very interesting dynamic. And you'd have the question of how Ashalyn felt about having the mark - and how the other villagers would respond. As for Dorius, for those who aren't familiar with him, I'll point out that by page 242 of the ECS, he founded the Library of Korranberg because he hoped to amass enough knowledge to displace the Sovereign Aureon. So he's a little man with big ideas (and hey... what if he DID displace Aureon?)!
#18 PJammaGod Jul 30, 2008 8:24:23	Dorius replacing Aureon... I'm sure the dragonic worshippers of Thir would just love that, getting one-upped by a Gnome. It's so devilishly ironic I might just have to include something like that in my camapaign :P . All in all I find the Dollurh's Dawn to be chock-full of crunchy potential. It's something that can be taken by a DM in all sorts of directions. Hmm and my players are currently adventuring in Western Breland (not my choice, there's), close to the border of Droaam.....
#19 rekko Jul 30, 2008 9:06:59	In the Forest of Flesh article, it was said that Mordain tried to create his own new dragonmarked house. I wouldn't be surprise if he's trying to create a bloodline out of the legendary people of Eberron, and mix in some of the dragonmarked and abberant bloodlines. I run a solo 3.5 campaign revolving around the dragonmarks, and my PC will eventually possess a power similar to the Dragonmark Secret class feature of the Cataclysm Mage allowing him to use the powers of multiple dragonmarks. For now, my PC has limited access to the least powers of a few marks. He accidentally used dimension leap in a battle the other day and I plan on making him speak with animals in our next game. My PC doesn't know what is happening to him, and wants to get some answers by asking the Twelve. I think the Twelve will try to send the PC to Dreadhold, like they tried to do with Mordain. Mordain is obviously spying on the Twelve, so he might send his aberrations on a rescue mission to save the subject of his new experiment... These articles are amazing! Rekko
#20 davethebrave371 Jul 30, 2008 10:05:10	I think it's a valid question if Ashalyn or Jhazalaen could actually develop the marks of Death or Shadow themselves. They're of the appropriate bloodlines. And if Ashalyn did develop the Mark of Death, it would show once and for all that it's not simply a genetic mutation, but an intersection of blood and Prophecy together... that it's a matter of being of the line of Vol in the age in which the marks appear (raising the question of whether, if a marked character traveled back to, say, the empire of Dhakaan, their mark would become dormant). And if a marked Ashalyn disapproved of the direction her descendant has taken the Blood of Vol, it could be a very interesting dynamic. And you'd have the question of how Ashalyn felt about having the mark - and how the other villagers would respond. It depends what "powers" the Least Mark she manifests has. If they are comparable with other Marks, as they should be, it probably wouldn't be any more alarming than if Jhazalaen manifested a Mark of Shadow. Still a shock, and weird, but nothing so incredible that they wouldn't just see it as a potential use in their struggle for survival. But if they realize what it is...well, even then, most of those historical figures even in life wouldn't have known about the Mark of Death, except maybe Dorius. In fact, even Ashalyn and Jhazalaen wouldn't comprehend if someone said to them, in their era, "You have a Dragonmark of Shadow/Death." They'd be like, "...ok...and that is...?" As for Dorius, for those who aren't familiar with him, I'll point out that by page 242 of the ECS, he founded the Library of Korranberg because he hoped to amass enough knowledge to displace the Sovereign Aureon. So he's a little man with big ideas (and hey... what if he DID displace Aureon?)! That's why he's my favourite! :D
#21 Nived Jul 30, 2008 12:56:01	Why no goblinoids, I wonder? I mean they did have one of the greatest civilizations the world had ever seen, maybe Mordain just doesn't like them. Another avenue not spoken of in the article, but an interesting possibility is that these individuals are intended as weapons, of a sort. There are of course rumors of some sort of working relationship between Mordain and the Daughters of Sora Kell. Perhaps the Daughters plan on, at some point to release them on an unsuspecting world, at stratigic locations to specific people. The ensuing chaos from one or more of these people's return could afford Droaam all the smokescreen it needs to expand, especially in Mordain bred an achilles heel into these 'heroes of legend'.
#22 thaliost Jul 30, 2008 13:41:43	I asked a question here but then realized what went wrong. I didn't know how to remove this article though, so it's here. Please ignore this post.
#23 Hellcow Jul 30, 2008 13:44:46	It depends what "powers" the Least Mark she manifests has. Well, my point was more than any strange physical change could be alarming under the circumstances. She doesn't know how she got here. She doesn't know who created this village. The forest itself is filled with bizarre aberrations. And now, this thing has appeared on her. Has she been marked by the creator of the village? Is she going to turn into a monster? Why has she alone (or her and Jhazalaen) been singled out? As the other members of the village don't possess the direct memories of their lives, it's not a matter of them not recognizing it as the Mark of Death; they don't necessarily know what dragonmarks are at all. Perhaps these memories will return, or perhaps their instinctive recall will be sufficient for them to say "I don't think that's a threat." But if not, how will the other villagers respond if they see it? With that said - this presumes there are no other dragonmarked individuals in the village, and there's no reason to assume that's the case (especially if you pick up on the idea of Mordain trying to create a new dragonmarked house). As noted in the article itself, you could have Halas Tarkanan or Aaren d'Cannith. You could have Lyran or Selavash, the founders of House Lyrandar. If dragonmarked individuals had been present from the start, the appearance of a new mark likely wouldn't be alarming - although people might still wonder if they were all going to develop marks. But yes, assuming that the powers of the Least Mark of Death were comparable to others - and assuming that she didn't, say, develop the SIBERYS mark of Death instead of starting with the Least - the powers likely wouldn't be distressing, especially to a gifted necromancer.
#24 Hellcow Jul 30, 2008 13:50:26	Sorry for going off-topic, I'm a little confused at this point. As I recall, Ashalyn finally used her power of the Mark of Death to turn Erandis into a lich. I realize you caught the error, Thaliost, but just to clarify once and for all: Erandis's mother was Minara Vol, as stated on page 75 of Faiths of Eberron. Ashalyn had nothing to do with Erandis.
#25 The_White_Sorcerer Jul 30, 2008 14:00:08	The key is that these people LOOK like the heroes of legend, but they only have limited access to the memories and skills of those heroes. This is covered on page 4 of the article (under "Using Dolurrh's Dawn") - the people of the village COULD be epic heroes if that's what serves the story, but they could also be 1st-level NPCs who just have the potential to become those heroes. As mhacdebhandia has suggested, it's quite possible that Mordain (assuming the village is in fact his creation) is curious to see if these people will indeed become legends again... or if, under these different circumstances, they will never reach that full potential. So it might not just be a "simple" arcane experiment on creating life. Are potential and destiny bound to you on a cellular level, or are they the result of circumstances? And, most importantly, can Mordain reproduce destiny?
#26 thaliost Jul 30, 2008 15:17:02	I realize you caught the error, Thaliost, but just to clarify once and for all: Erandis's mother was Minara Vol, as stated on page 75 of Faiths of Eberron. Ashalyn had nothing to do with Erandis. Thank you for the answer. I was just looking for it here and there. And actually, has Mordain been mentioned anywhere in the 3R Eberron books? or is he newly introduced by 4E magazines?
#27 ieattrollsforbreakfast Jul 30, 2008 17:16:13	Thank you for the answer. I was just looking for it here and there. And actually, has Mordain been mentioned anywhere in the 3R Eberron books? or is he newly introduced by 4E magazines? He's been around from the start. ECS pg 167, to be precise. He just hasn't been developed as much as some other important/powerful NPCs up until now. Another interesting titbit - this is the first official (ie, in-product) confirmation we've had that the elf/eladrin split isn't going to be a simple Aereni/Valenar split, since all the elves mentioned are still elves. I know we pretty much knew that wasn't going to be the case anyway, but still.
#28 davethebrave371 Jul 30, 2008 19:43:52	He's been around from the start. ECS pg 167, to be precise. He just hasn't been developed as much as some other important/powerful NPCs up until now. Another interesting titbit - this is the first official (ie, in-product) confirmation we've had that the elf/eladrin split isn't going to be a simple Aereni/Valenar split, since all the elves mentioned are still elves. I know we pretty much knew that wasn't going to be the case anyway, but still. I like the idea that giants stole Warforged designs and then improved upon them from another plane. I like the idea that they did something similar in nature with eladrin from Thelanis, making elves and then altering that formulae to make drow. Don't know if that's what they're running with, but that's sort of how I imagine things going down, ideally.
#29 bailey91 Aug 02, 2008 0:22:00	Of all the ideas in this article, the possibility I like the most would be the fact that these former heroes are in fact the people they claim to be. It would be interesting to find out how such souls were able to escape the oblivion of Dollurh. In my campaign, I take the Kalashtar approach to Dollurh; that its a plane where the personality of the spirit fades, causing the soul to be reborn. That could explain how Mordain was able to pull these souls from the bleak realm. I mean, he's pretty much an archmage. He probably knows more about life than any creature in the multiverse. On the question of Kaius being there, I think the soul of a vampire goes to Dolurrh, leaving an animus behind with conscious thoughts and memories of the previous person. There isn't anything particularly binding about undeath and the soul. Zombies don't have souls, and neither do wights. Intelligence does not prove a soul exists.
#30 davethebrave371 Aug 02, 2008 2:43:03	Of all the ideas in this article, the possibility I like the most would be the fact that these former heroes are in fact the people they claim to be. It would be interesting to find out how such souls were able to escape the oblivion of Dollurh. In my campaign, I take the Kalashtar approach to Dollurh; that its a plane where the personality of the spirit fades, causing the soul to be reborn. That could explain how Mordain was able to pull these souls from the bleak realm. I mean, he's pretty much an archmage. He probably knows more about life than any creature in the multiverse. Ah, but the graspings of memory paired to these forms speaks to something more than a personality that has faded...it's more like a personality dormant, waiting to be reclaimed! On the question of Kaius being there, I think the soul of a vampire goes to Dolurrh, leaving an animus behind with conscious thoughts and memories of the previous person. There isn't anything particularly binding about undeath and the soul. Zombies don't have souls, and neither do wights. Intelligence does not prove a soul exists. Hence the "WARFORGED AIN'T PEOPLE" argument.
#31 PJammaGod Aug 02, 2008 12:59:28	I just want to dig out that great image near the back of Sharn: City of Towers where all the protesters have placards and signs showing off various anti-Warforged slogans :D . Personally I'd definetly go with the postings of mhacdebhandia (that is horrid name to type you know :P ) and like about Mordain comparing the raw genetics of people with their various circumstances. Does the sword make the man (you're born great), or does the man make the sword (Galifar was at the right place at the right time and had the right experiences/motivations to forge a nation)? That aside, the thought of having access to Halas Tarkanan (one of my favourite NPC's of all time) and perhaps even the enigmatic Lady of Plagues gives me chills. He'd (hopefully) be able to show the current generations of Aberrant marked how to use their marks and empower them to levels not seen since the War of the Mark.
#32 bailey91 Aug 02, 2008 20:57:55	The line-up of characters in Dollurh's Dawn is really cool. I'm glad they also added on an epic destiny for us Eberron guys, 'cause a demigod is kinda hard to fit in. If anyone adds more important characters to Dollurh's Dawn, the only person I think that should never be considered, is Tira Miron. Her soul still exists in the Silver Flame, so she wouldn't be able to be brought back if Mordain is using actual souls.
#33 Save-vs-DM Aug 04, 2008 2:23:55	I actually got lucky and a player of mine is going to be running a play by post game set in this village (and I'll probably run one tabletop eventually). Now I have to make a character, though. I mean, what do I make? There are just so many choices that it's hard to pick. Anyone have any suggestions? Personally I'm leaning towards Lhesh Dhakaan or possibly Maruk.
#34 goblin_pride Aug 04, 2008 2:47:12	Hence the "WARFORGED AIN'T PEOPLE" argument. They're not, strictly speaking. But then again, neither are goblins, dwarves, Elves et cetera. The Warforged are the warforged, to expect them to be anything else would be a great injustice to them. Sorry, playing Keeper's advocate, back to topic.
#35 The_White_Sorcerer Aug 04, 2008 8:30:36	They're not, strictly speaking. But then again, neither are goblins, dwarves, Elves et cetera. This is only true if you use 'people' to mean 'humans', which is a silly idea in a fantasy setting populated by all sorts of people (elves and such).
#36 davethebrave371 Aug 05, 2008 1:21:25	This is only true if you use 'people' to mean 'humans', which is a silly idea in a fantasy setting populated by all sorts of people (elves and such). No, he meant goblins. See: his name, and anything he posts.
#37 rocksa13 Aug 06, 2008 12:47:18	Ah, but the graspings of memory paired to these forms speaks to something more than a personality that has faded...it's more like a personality dormant, waiting to be reclaimed! Hence the "WARFORGED AIN'T PEOPLE" argument. Personally I always tied Magic of Incarnum in with the creation of Warforged. They have bits of soulstuff (raw incarnum) from Dollurh that basically give them a soul, although it's mishmashed. This also accounts for some of their personality quirks that they sometimes exhibit.
#38 goblin_pride Aug 07, 2008 3:53:23	No, he meant goblins. See: his name, and anything he posts. True enough, but.... The Warforged have always been one of the more interesting races in the game in my mind. The possiblity that their personalities are just a random side-effect of the creation process is more interesting than any background an average player can think of. "Do the warforged really have souls?" is as enigmatic a question as "What caused the Mourning?" Is their personality etched on them accidentally by the artificer that built them or is it a bit of soul snatched from the wasting souls on Dolurrh? So when they finally succumb to damage enough to make them unrepairable or corrosion, do they pass on to the realms of the dead? Do they really even live? They don't reproduce. They don't eat. They don't breathe. They don't even actually die, they just go inert when they're overly damaged. Truly one of the greatest mysteries of the setting and they're wasted on players that want to think of them as nothing more than robots, without considering the greater potential for spiritual expression. Again, back to the original topic...
#39 The_White_Sorcerer Aug 07, 2008 8:13:36	No, he meant goblins. See: his name, and anything he posts. Well he did say that goblins aren't people.
#40 davethebrave371 Aug 07, 2008 19:47:54	Well he did say that goblins aren't people. Huh. That escaped me. My eyes broke, or something.
#41 rauric Aug 07, 2008 22:02:31	This was a fun article and what Eberron is all about.