Draconic mindset and Dr. Manhattan - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Draconic mindset and Dr. Manhattan

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
bobiago
Jul 17, 2009 16:29:29 I've been struggling with a number of concepts with Eberron and I think with the presentation of the material in the ECS and some recent comments by Hellcow here, I have finally reached a bit of an epiphany.

I have been trying to come up with a way of making dragons think very differently, reflecting their superior natures, but in a way that is comprehensible to players with ordinary natures. I've also had some trouble getting as excited about the Prophecy as a plot device as the designers want me to be. I mean, prophecies are already kind of hackneyed as a plot device when they affect Buffy, or Harry Potter. But as an overarching "fabric of the universe" kind of thing? Isn't that taking gypsy fortune-telling to a ridiculous extreme?

Then also was the whole concept of the uber-powerful dragons, capable of solving all the worlds ills, yet standing by while Xen'drik was ripped apart, Daelkyr were running rampant, Dreaming Dark infiltrating Sarlona, and simultaneously unable to successfully prosecute a war against the Elves. I know that this has all been explained before (they aren't interested in anything that doesn't affect Argonnessen, and there's something about the Undying Court that trumps them, etc...). But I guess I just didn't like the explanations.

Then I started thinking about Dr. Manhattan from Watchmen. Dr. Manhattan basically sees his whole life, past present and future, all at once. As he puts it, instead of viewing the gem one facet at a time like humans do, he can see the whole thing. However, he is bound by what is to be - he is a puppet playing out his destiny, but he is a puppet who can see the strings.

I started wondering whether a superhumanly intelligent dragon, one with an int in the mid 20's and a student of the Prophecy, would start seeing life that way. Begin to see their whole life from beginning to end, reflected at first perhaps in the Prophecy, but eventually intertwined with their nature. They may even lose concept of time, and time in turn, may lose control of them. They might gain the ability to affect the future, of course, but maybe they could also affect their actions in the past.

Of course a dragon with a knowledge of the future could change that future, but would he? Would he get all disassociated and apathetic like Dr. Manhattan? And if a dragon sufficiently advanced to see his life as a whole, and live his life as a whole, could he change his past, and would he?

Now consider the Prophecy, written by the Progenitor dragons, the most advanced beings there ever were, or ever will be. As Keith has recently mentioned, the Prophecy need not just be what will happen, but all the things that could happen. The Progenitors are the universe, and their "life" is all things from the beginning of creation to the end of time. When they saw that gem, the gem of the universe, which they were able to look upon from all sides, from beginning to end.

Now let's consider that the Progenitors were able to see not only their own lives, the universe, from beginning to end, but all possible universes from beginning to end. That's a lot to comprehend, even for a supreme being. You'd need to take notes. And each of the three of them had their own desires over how they wanted it to look. What if the Prophecy were the story of the universe, from beginning to end, but told simultaneously from three very different perspectives? Rashomon on a universal scale?

So the Prophecy is the story of creation, written in creation, in the things that happen and that have happened. And it reflects the perspectives of three different authors, and is modifiable by their agents, if they are advanced enough to see the story and make the proper changes.

A good student of the Prophecy can learn the future. An advanced student can, like a well thumbed "Choose your own Adventure" book, learn all of the futures and the decisions that need to be made, the things that need to happen to make the ending that they want. An exceptionally intelligent student of the Prophecy, say an ancient dragon, who can change his own past, can subsequently change the present and the future.

And it doesn't have to stop with one dragon's lifetime. Dragons that have already died who know enough about the Prophecy can see the changes in the future wrought by the agents of today and make the necessary changes in their lifetimes to change it back, or take advantage of new opportunities for a different future that was not available to them in the first place. So any change made could have vast, unforseen effects on not only the future, but also the past.

So if your brain is starting to reel at the infinite possibility, the endless cycle of change leading to change leading to change that is constantly re-writing the story of creation, you are now starting to feel like what it must be to be an ancient dragon who has spent his life in contemplation of the Prophecy. Only the exceptionally arrogant, gifted or mad would dare trying to make changes (and they do!). For the rest, I think if the Prophecy says you do something, you do it. If it says you don't, you don't.
#2
Alex_
Jul 17, 2009 19:10:59 sounds about right.

Some Ozymondias would fit in there rather well too. Not nearly as perceptive of the inner workings of the cosmos as Dr. Manhattan, but intelligent, cunning, and ruthless enough to create elaborate plans that casually kills millions in pursuit of greater goals.

One of the reasons why player's shouldn't wait for the Dragons to come and save the world is because of how Dragons work. They will save the world, but couldn't give a flying flip about any particular element of it (unless it pertains to the prophecy) and have a history of wiping out entire civilizations and committing acts of mass genocide for the greater good.
#3
wymarc
Jul 17, 2009 20:36:55 I see it as a case of they just don't care, much like Manhattan. They don't believe that they can be hurt, except by perhaps the Lords of Dust, whom I see as moving slowly and carefully to avoid notice. They're older and more powerful than most powers in Eberron and the planes (or at least they believe so). I see the LoD having the same outlook, stopping them from allying with other 'evil' forces. The two groups are playing at a different level than everyone else.

They remind me a lot of the Vorlons from Babylon 5 actually.
#4
DarkSpiral
Jul 18, 2009 22:45:21 Bobiago, I salute you. Someone give the man (I assume) a cookie.

I admit, I hadn't ever given the Chamber or the dragons at large much thought. But the comparison to Dr. Manhattan is an insightful one, and it gives me the perspective I needed to distance the dragons of Eberron from their counterparts in other systems. I think I may just copy the whole of your post and save it, to read again at leisure when I need inspiration for Eberron dragons.
#5
Bly2729
Jul 19, 2009 18:41:25 Good idea, except that Dr. Mourning is a Level 30 Deva Orbizard made from an attempt to re-create the Mourning. After ending the dispute between the Eldeen Reaches and Aundair in two months with the help of Brelish adventurer The Jester he settled into artifice work in Sharn. There he worked with an intelligent adventurer who retired to make a profit off selling things he made to develop new Siberys Shard technology to power airships and the Lightning Rail and put General Elementals out of business.
#6
okaynowa
Jul 20, 2009 15:11:33
So the Prophecy is the story of creation, written in creation, in the things that happen and that have happened. And it reflects the perspectives of three different authors, and is modifiable by their agents, if they are advanced enough to see the story and make the proper changes.

This metaphor is both illuminating and story provoking. Me likey.

This interpretation of the Prophecy would also give dragons a good reason to freak out about Dragonmarks. They're used to seeing the elements of the Prophecy encoded in big, non-willed things like weather patterns and geographical features. When the progenitors' "signatures" start showing up on mortal beings with will and fallibility, it's like a sub-plot in the book just walked off the page and decided to become a horse breeder. Very unsettling, and calls into question the trust the reader has placed in the author so far.

Oooh-- also gives me a great idea for an Eberron spin on the Parable epic destiny.
#7
auspex7
Jul 20, 2009 21:32:45 Fantastic post. Bravo, sir.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 bobiago Jul 17, 2009 16:29:29	I've been struggling with a number of concepts with Eberron and I think with the presentation of the material in the ECS and some recent comments by Hellcow here, I have finally reached a bit of an epiphany. I have been trying to come up with a way of making dragons think very differently, reflecting their superior natures, but in a way that is comprehensible to players with ordinary natures. I've also had some trouble getting as excited about the Prophecy as a plot device as the designers want me to be. I mean, prophecies are already kind of hackneyed as a plot device when they affect Buffy, or Harry Potter. But as an overarching "fabric of the universe" kind of thing? Isn't that taking gypsy fortune-telling to a ridiculous extreme? Then also was the whole concept of the uber-powerful dragons, capable of solving all the worlds ills, yet standing by while Xen'drik was ripped apart, Daelkyr were running rampant, Dreaming Dark infiltrating Sarlona, and simultaneously unable to successfully prosecute a war against the Elves. I know that this has all been explained before (they aren't interested in anything that doesn't affect Argonnessen, and there's something about the Undying Court that trumps them, etc...). But I guess I just didn't like the explanations. Then I started thinking about Dr. Manhattan from Watchmen. Dr. Manhattan basically sees his whole life, past present and future, all at once. As he puts it, instead of viewing the gem one facet at a time like humans do, he can see the whole thing. However, he is bound by what is to be - he is a puppet playing out his destiny, but he is a puppet who can see the strings. I started wondering whether a superhumanly intelligent dragon, one with an int in the mid 20's and a student of the Prophecy, would start seeing life that way. Begin to see their whole life from beginning to end, reflected at first perhaps in the Prophecy, but eventually intertwined with their nature. They may even lose concept of time, and time in turn, may lose control of them. They might gain the ability to affect the future, of course, but maybe they could also affect their actions in the past. Of course a dragon with a knowledge of the future could change that future, but would he? Would he get all disassociated and apathetic like Dr. Manhattan? And if a dragon sufficiently advanced to see his life as a whole, and live his life as a whole, could he change his past, and would he? Now consider the Prophecy, written by the Progenitor dragons, the most advanced beings there ever were, or ever will be. As Keith has recently mentioned, the Prophecy need not just be what will happen, but all the things that could happen. The Progenitors are the universe, and their "life" is all things from the beginning of creation to the end of time. When they saw that gem, the gem of the universe, which they were able to look upon from all sides, from beginning to end. Now let's consider that the Progenitors were able to see not only their own lives, the universe, from beginning to end, but all possible universes from beginning to end. That's a lot to comprehend, even for a supreme being. You'd need to take notes. And each of the three of them had their own desires over how they wanted it to look. What if the Prophecy were the story of the universe, from beginning to end, but told simultaneously from three very different perspectives? Rashomon on a universal scale? So the Prophecy is the story of creation, written in creation, in the things that happen and that have happened. And it reflects the perspectives of three different authors, and is modifiable by their agents, if they are advanced enough to see the story and make the proper changes. A good student of the Prophecy can learn the future. An advanced student can, like a well thumbed "Choose your own Adventure" book, learn all of the futures and the decisions that need to be made, the things that need to happen to make the ending that they want. An exceptionally intelligent student of the Prophecy, say an ancient dragon, who can change his own past, can subsequently change the present and the future. And it doesn't have to stop with one dragon's lifetime. Dragons that have already died who know enough about the Prophecy can see the changes in the future wrought by the agents of today and make the necessary changes in their lifetimes to change it back, or take advantage of new opportunities for a different future that was not available to them in the first place. So any change made could have vast, unforseen effects on not only the future, but also the past. So if your brain is starting to reel at the infinite possibility, the endless cycle of change leading to change leading to change that is constantly re-writing the story of creation, you are now starting to feel like what it must be to be an ancient dragon who has spent his life in contemplation of the Prophecy. Only the exceptionally arrogant, gifted or mad would dare trying to make changes (and they do!). For the rest, I think if the Prophecy says you do something, you do it. If it says you don't, you don't.
#2 Alex_ Jul 17, 2009 19:10:59	sounds about right. Some Ozymondias would fit in there rather well too. Not nearly as perceptive of the inner workings of the cosmos as Dr. Manhattan, but intelligent, cunning, and ruthless enough to create elaborate plans that casually kills millions in pursuit of greater goals. One of the reasons why player's shouldn't wait for the Dragons to come and save the world is because of how Dragons work. They will save *the world*, but couldn't give a flying flip about any particular element of it (unless it pertains to the prophecy) and have a history of wiping out entire civilizations and committing acts of mass genocide for the greater good.
#3 wymarc Jul 17, 2009 20:36:55	I see it as a case of they just don't care, much like Manhattan. They don't believe that they can be hurt, except by perhaps the Lords of Dust, whom I see as moving slowly and carefully to avoid notice. They're older and more powerful than most powers in Eberron and the planes (or at least they believe so). I see the LoD having the same outlook, stopping them from allying with other 'evil' forces. The two groups are playing at a different level than everyone else. They remind me a lot of the Vorlons from Babylon 5 actually.
#4 DarkSpiral Jul 18, 2009 22:45:21	Bobiago, I salute you. Someone give the man (I assume) a cookie. I admit, I hadn't ever given the Chamber or the dragons at large much thought. But the comparison to Dr. Manhattan is an insightful one, and it gives me the perspective I needed to distance the dragons of Eberron from their counterparts in other systems. I think I may just copy the whole of your post and save it, to read again at leisure when I need inspiration for Eberron dragons.
#5 Bly2729 Jul 19, 2009 18:41:25	Good idea, except that Dr. Mourning is a Level 30 Deva Orbizard made from an attempt to re-create the Mourning. After ending the dispute between the Eldeen Reaches and Aundair in two months with the help of Brelish adventurer The Jester he settled into artifice work in Sharn. There he worked with an intelligent adventurer who retired to make a profit off selling things he made to develop new Siberys Shard technology to power airships and the Lightning Rail and put General Elementals out of business.
#6 okaynowa Jul 20, 2009 15:11:33	So the Prophecy is the story of creation, written in creation, in the things that happen and that have happened. And it reflects the perspectives of three different authors, and is modifiable by their agents, if they are advanced enough to see the story and make the proper changes. This metaphor is both illuminating and story provoking. Me likey. This interpretation of the Prophecy would also give dragons a good reason to freak out about Dragonmarks. They're used to seeing the elements of the Prophecy encoded in big, non-willed things like weather patterns and geographical features. When the progenitors' "signatures" start showing up on mortal beings with will and fallibility, it's like a sub-plot in the book just walked off the page and decided to become a horse breeder. Very unsettling, and calls into question the trust the reader has placed in the author so far. Oooh-- also gives me a great idea for an Eberron spin on the Parable epic destiny.
#7 auspex7 Jul 20, 2009 21:32:45	Fantastic post. Bravo, sir.