Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 neofish7 Jan 15, 2009 2:57:02	This is just a personal idea ive been thinkin of for my next campaign in 4th edtion (still working out how to incorporate the 4th ed. changes into a workin campaign). Anyhow, what if Dragonshards are so valuable in 4th. ed Eberron because they can be crushed up or are a form of concentrated Residuum? It explains where magic items come from, why dragonshards are super important and valuable and how the production of magic in item format began. I was reading this thread here and it got me thinking about the whole residuum crystals and condensed magic thing and just thought that Dragonshards fit the bill perfectly. Heck, astral diamonds could just be replaced with huge Siberyrs (sp?) shards (perhaps they also "fall" from the ring there or just naturally manifest or form in the astral sea aswell?). Who knows? What do you guys think? Good idea or bad?
#2 LordDreadman Jan 15, 2009 3:18:17	Good idea, definately. However, be sure to play up the fact that certain magic items still require whole dragonshards so that grinding them for residuum is a big deal and devalues them slightly. For instance, elemental vessels still need whole Khyber shards to bind elementals to them. Yours, Lord Dreadman
#3 PJammaGod Jan 15, 2009 6:58:10	Considering how essential all forms of Dragonshards are to both the regular economy and more specifically the Dragonmarked Houses, I find it highly doubtful that Dragonshards would ever be "crushed up". The usage for both dragonmarked individuals as well as for binding purposes and the enhancement of regular enchantments excludes them from simply being milled for excess Residuum. Also tweaking Residuum to act as a "dilute form of Dragonshards" is again probably not the best idea. The economics and businesses of Eberron (more specifically Khorvaire) presuppose that Dragonshards are by their nature hard to acquire and to safely collect. If any dragonshard could be made just by having a Magewright coalesce some loose magic together the need for expeditions into Xen'Drik, the Shadow Marches and the depths of Khyber become moot. These are valuable items, these are why House Orien is still after four years reeling from the loss of all the conductor stones in Cyre. This is why Zilargo pays top-dollar for expeditions into Khyber to locate the rare Khyber Dragonshards for their elemental binding, why Lyrandar has huge contracts with these binders. Dragonshards, without most people even realising, form the backbone of Khorvaire's economy and diluting them down would pretty much take away from what makes them so important. I don't want to come across as a bubble-buster :P but it's probably not the best idea to tweak something as intrinsinc and critical/integral as the nature/role of Dragonshards.
#4 neofish7 Jan 16, 2009 1:45:33	I think your misunderstanding me PJammaGod. I'm saying that Residuum is a byproduct of dragonshards, not the other way around. Whole shards are still vital, in fact, without them there would be no magic items at all. Because without thier discovery and thier subsequint milling, crushing, powdering into Residuum (or what I thik I shall call dragon dust), nothing could be enchanted. Of course you still need whole stones, pure, stones for foci. But a magic sword just needs the powder for enchantment, not a whole shard. You are right, dragonshards are the economic backbone, no doubt, my idea only stresses this even further, as whithout the dust from dragonshards, nothing could be enchanted, no sharn, no magic swords, no warforged, nothin. Perhaps when I get a moment i'll try to sit down and throughly explain my stance and ideals.
#5 PJammaGod Jan 16, 2009 8:48:27	Okies the clarification really helps ;) . Sorry ab00t getting it wrong the first time, I'll switch oils and try to get my brain into the right gear :P . Now back to the theory. If you're using Residuum as a derivative of Dragonshards, that thematically and mechanically does make a great deal of sense. It would go well to explaining why you have a pile of shining dust after using the Disenchant Ritual. The dust used in the initial creation of the magical item has simply been transmuted back into it's original form. It would also make economical sense. Much as humans use low-grade diamonds (the rubbish-stuff) in diamond-saws and the high-grade in jewellery, low-grade very small dragonshards are ground into Residuum and the high-grade material is used as whole components for magical items. This does however tie into my original statement. Dragonshards form the backbone of the Khorvaire economy. Making them now doubly important could make them perhaps "too" valuable. Unless you're straddling the middle ground and allow both regular cash and Residuum/Dragonshards to craft items. Perhaps introduce some sort of economic/thematic incentive for Dragonshard use over regular crafting. Maybethe Dragonmarked Houses have found a way to use Dragonshards more effectively, say slash 5-10% off the cost of crafting an item since the magic works better than regular sacrificing of cash in crafting costs. Or at least something to that effect.
#6 fletch137 Jan 16, 2009 17:17:39	I think this is a fine idea. For the first time since 4e hit, I finally have a grasp of what residuum is. Mechanically I'd assumed it was to avoid magic item glut and allow PCs to recycle weaker weapons to help make more powerful weapons as they went up in level. Fluff-wise, though, it just seemed like pixie dust. Fortunately for the world economy, though, residuum has little advantage outside of weapon upgrades which is a decidedly PC activity. Anybody else would just as easily use the "standard" magic ingredients for their magic item crafting and rituals without having to grind up shards. I mean, if you had your choice between grinding up a shard and using virgin ox blood (or whatever), neither of which affected the time or cost of crafting your magic hat, why would you grind up the shard when you could sell it to a gnome for twice the value?
#7 neofish7 Jan 17, 2009 18:10:55	Okies the clarification really helps ;) . Sorry ab00t getting it wrong the first time, I'll switch oils and try to get my brain into the right gear :P . No worries dude. Now back to the theory. If you're using Residuum as a derivative of Dragonshards, that thematically and mechanically does make a great deal of sense. It would go well to explaining why you have a pile of shining dust after using the Disenchant Ritual. The dust used in the initial creation of the magical item has simply been transmuted back into it's original form. I agree. It would also make economical sense. Much as humans use low-grade diamonds (the rubbish-stuff) in diamond-saws and the high-grade in jewellery, low-grade very small dragonshards are ground into Residuum and the high-grade material is used as whole components for magical items. Yup, my thoughts exactly. Larger, more pure strand shards are used and binding stones and foci, while smaller fragments are used for residuum to construct magic, non- elemental bound, foci items. This does however tie into my original statement. Dragonshards form the backbone of the Khorvaire economy. Making them now doubly important could make them perhaps "too" valuable. Unless you're straddling the middle ground and allow both regular cash and Residuum/Dragonshards to craft items. I want them extremely important, as they are, as you said, the back bone of khorvairian technoloy, society, and the economy. Making residuum a by-product of the shard trade just seems like a natural fit is all. Dragonshard mines and excavation sites now become something to actually fight wars over for every nation, not just something that each house would want to own, but without a steady supply of shards, no nation would have the magical armaments they would have needed to fight the war. I think by adding more value to the shards they become more pivital and easier to explain and use as a plot device. At least, thats how I intent to use them. (It would also be cool if 4th ed Eberron used this ideal aswell). Perhaps introduce some sort of economic/thematic incentive for Dragonshard use over regular crafting. Maybethe Dragonmarked Houses have found a way to use Dragonshards more effectively, say slash 5-10% off the cost of crafting an item since the magic works better than regular sacrificing of cash in crafting costs. Or at least something to that effect. I disagree, they dont need to have a special incentive to be effective. They they become a required component to the entire magic item trade, then that alone gives you all the drive you need for them.
#8 neofish7 Jan 17, 2009 18:15:52	I think this is a fine idea. For the first time since 4e hit, I finally have a grasp of what residuum is. Awesome, lol. Fluff-wise, though, it just seemed like pixie dust. I agree Fortunately for the world economy, though, residuum has little advantage outside of weapon upgrades which is a decidedly PC activity. Anybody else would just as easily use the "standard" magic ingredients for their magic item crafting and rituals without having to grind up shards. I mean, if you had your choice between grinding up a shard and using virgin ox blood (or whatever), neither of which affected the time or cost of crafting your magic hat, why would you grind up the shard when you could sell it to a gnome for twice the value? Well, see, my idea is that its impossible to craft magic items without the inclusion of the dragon dust (the residuum resultant from crushing up dragonshards). You may still need the blood of an ox, or the hairs of an albino troll, but you also need the residuum catalyst to spark the creation and temperment and refining of the item. Without the dust, you just have abunch of random odd ends and bits, but nothing permanent or anything close to a magic item. At least, thats my take.
#9 Siberys Jan 17, 2009 20:54:19	Why should one need to crush the dragonshards (not that that wouldn't be a possibility - just not a necessity)? I'd just replace residuum with dragonshards wholesale and be done with it. When you disenchant a magic item, you get 20% of its worth in dragonshards, they're used for rituals, etc... Really, residuum is PoL's Dragonshards. The form of the dragonshards you'd get from the disenchanting would, of course, depend on the item. A magical holy symbol, with no obvious gems, might have crushed dragonshards mixed in with the metal, producing "dragondust" when disenchanted. A soul-eating dagger composed entirely of a khyber shard wouldn't disintegrate into dust, though - it would keep it's general form, though materials bound to it (like metal inlays or the leather on the handle) would fall off. A magic axe with Eberron shards set in the pommel and axe head would just "drop" those 'shards. Of course, I always saw magic item creation / spellcasting (i.e. rituals) as being the big reason why Dragonshards were a big economic thing in the first place. Without them, very little of this magic stuff would operate, etc...
#10 neofish7 Jan 18, 2009 10:11:01	Why should one need to crush the dragonshards (not that that wouldn't be a possibility - just not a necessity)? I'd just replace residuum with dragonshards wholesale and be done with it. Why do I do anything in DnD? Cause I thought the notion was cool, it let me add shard refineries into my campaign. I like the idea that dragonmarked houses and countires would differ on thier needs for the shards (houses would hate to crush them up as they are used as foci while countires would wanna grind 'em up to enchant everything). This would allow me to more intrigue and tension between the nations and the houses. etc... Really, residuum is PoL's Dragonshards. You caught onto that to huh? Yeah, it's amazing how much 4th ed. er, barrowed from Eberron... The form of the dragonshards you'd get from the disenchanting would, of course, depend on the item. A magical holy symbol, with no obvious gems, might have crushed dragonshards mixed in with the metal, producing "dragondust" when disenchanted. A soul-eating dagger composed entirely of a khyber shard wouldn't disintegrate into dust, though - it would keep it's general form, though materials bound to it (like metal inlays or the leather on the handle) would fall off. A magic axe with Eberron shards set in the pommel and axe head would just "drop" those 'shards. To each his own, I to would like to think its a combination between dust and shards. Using your example, that shard encrusted axe would melt or disentigrate or flake into a combination of dust while its shards would fall off unharmed. Of course, I always saw magic item creation / spellcasting (i.e. rituals) as being the big reason why Dragonshards were a big economic thing in the first place. Without them, very little of this magic stuff would operate, etc... I do to, except I never saw this put into play at all in any of my games or any of ideas on these boards either. If it was, it wasnt stressed to anything more that a flavourful addition to magic item descriptions, heck, the campaign setting never even really explained if they were needed to make items or not. It always seemed to me like you could add them, but you never had to.
#11 Siberys Jan 18, 2009 12:05:43	Why do I do anything in DnD? Cause I thought the notion was cool, it let me add shard refineries into my campaign. I like the idea that dragonmarked houses and countires would differ on thier needs for the shards (houses would hate to crush them up as they are used as foci while countires would wanna grind 'em up to enchant everything). This would allow me to more intrigue and tension between the nations and the houses. Oh don't get me wrong; its a neat idea. I just wouldn't make it universal - you don't NEED powdered shards, just shards in general. IMC, the actual form the shards would take would ultimately depend on the magic item's specifications and the creator's aesthetics. A soul-sucking item would need a fairly large Khyber shard, whereas if someone wanted a sword that wasn't encrusted in jewels, they'd be able to crush the 'shards and mix it in with the weapon as it was being forged, giving the magic something to "hold" onto. To each his own, I to would like to think its a combination between dust and shards. Using your example, that shard encrusted axe would melt or disentigrate or flake into a combination of dust while its shards would fall off unharmed. That'd work, too. I really think we agree, except on to what degree we want the dust prevalent. I do to, except I never saw this put into play at all in any of my games or any of ideas on these boards either. If it was, it wasnt stressed to anything more that a flavourful addition to magic item descriptions, heck, the campaign setting never even really explained if they were needed to make items or not. It always seemed to me like you could add them, but you never had to. Well, it was sorta in the rules, but one had to squint to see it - this holds true in both 3e and 4e. The GP cost for creating a magic item didn't represent a pile of gold - it represented the various special components you'd need to make the item. In PoL, a large chunk of that is residuum; in Eberron, it'd be 'shards. At least, it's how I'd've described the cost. Actually putting it into play was just that - a matter of description.
#12 neofish7 Jan 18, 2009 14:34:21	It seems that you and I Siberys are on the same page. At the end of the day, this concept is just a way to explain the existence of Residuum in Eberron. Even in PoL I jus think residuum is a rather odd and well, quite frankly, stupid idea (imo, I know designers and writers work really had, and I applaude you, and I know you can't please everyone). It was only after visintg these boards and veiwing other peoples attempts to come up with concepts and ideas on how to justify and include residuum into thier campagins did I myself start humoring the idea aswell. I've always tried to follow Keith's ideals that DM houses are like the houses in dune and that thier spice are Dragonshards, ive just never seen it come into play. Ever. Not once. I think this idea is a step towards the right direction. For dragonshards to have value, they need to be finite and rare. Its one thing to have a rock, that once found can be enchanted and once so, remains that way and can be passed down your family line forever (lots of DM hiers are stated to have thier stuff passed down). thats cool, but shards then are like diamonds, vauable yes, nescessary, no. Now, if they are, like, I dunno, gasoline, in which there is a constant need for them, well, now I can see why houses fight and manipulate one another for control of them. Why countires would kill for them. Its no longer a shiny stone that makes a special person more special, its something that joe farmer could use to build a bomb with. Kinda get what im saying? By making shards into something thats in constant demand you just open so much potential, again, imo.
#13 AvonRekaes Jan 21, 2009 15:28:05	I'm pretty sure you guys are missing the line in the 3e ECS that says that ALL magic items that aren't A) Dragonmark Focus Items, or B) Soul-or-Elemental Binding Items, are made with Eberron Dragonshards. Eberron Shards seem to be the red headed step-child of Dragonshards. No one remembers them. Everyone's all about their fancy Syberis Shards that fall from the sky and enhance Dragonmark powers, or mysterious Khyber Shards that are pried from the walls of Khyber near dangerous lava flows and are used to bind spirits to command. Eberron Dragonshards, however, power EVERYTHING. They always have, since the first Eberron book. Your +1 Short Sword and your Cloak of Resistance +2 both have Eberron Dragonshards in them. So I don't see any change in making Dragonshards "more valuable". They've been an essential part of magic item creation since the setting existed.
#14 skrapsan Jan 21, 2009 15:59:09	So I don't see any change in making Dragonshards "more valuable". They've been an essential part of magic item creation since the setting existed. I second this man's opinion.
#15 PJammaGod Jan 22, 2009 5:21:07	I'm pretty sure you guys are missing the line in the 3e ECS that says that ALL magic items that aren't A) Dragonmark Focus Items, or B) Soul-or-Elemental Binding Items, are made with Eberron Dragonshards. You're going to have to point me to that line because after scanning ECS (pages 92, 127 and 259) I am yet to come across this apparent quote. The best I can find is on the first paragraph on Dragonshard Items (ECS pg 259), which goes "Each type of dragonshard has an affinity for certain magical functions, and each is used to make a different sort of item". But this merely states that dragonshards have differing uses, not a confirmation on the universal status and usage of Dragonshards in, as you said "ALL magic items". Jumping to page 265, third paragraph of the first column, states "In addition to items described here, the following magic items from Dungeon Masters Guide are normally made using Eberron shards: ..." Again this extrapolates on their usage, not rigorously defines them as used in all items.