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Dragon Sovereigns

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
juanpierre
Oct 23, 2010 23:43:03
I'm starting a dragonborn PC from Q'barra, and I'd like to find a little information on the Dragon Sovereigns. I read the little bit in Dragons of Eberron, and there's nothing in Faiths of Eberron. I get the whole idea of them, but I didn't know if there is any more specific info-- especially names. The only one I can find is Ourelonastrix for Aureon. Is there a comprehensive list?
#2
hanzo187
Oct 25, 2010 20:39:59
There was a thread about the gods I made several months back. It had some info on Thir, the religion of the dragons. Here's the link.

community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
#3
Hellcow
Oct 26, 2010 22:22:23 As a side note, while many of the names are out there (though I'd have to dig to find them all, and sadly I don't have time at the moment)... when I played a dragonborn paladin from Q'barra, I actually just invoked them by their color. Aureon was "The Blue", Dol Dorn "The Silver", etc. In part, this is because by Thir, the position of Sovereign isn't a permanent one. Ourelonastrix may have been the first of his kind, but he's likely moved on. Though with that in mind, it would make even more sense to say "Lord of Law and Lore!" - because the current Sovereign of these things may not be blue.

While I played the character for a long time, I actually had a dramatic shift where he became a cleric (I just wasn't enjoying the paladin class) of the Prophecy itself; the thought was that he'd found a higher calling that his faith in the Dragon Sovereigns.
#4
juanpierre
Oct 29, 2010 19:45:30 I like that. It does fit with the faith of Thir. I've never played a dragonborn before, mainly because I didn't get into their fluff. But the dragon myth basis of Eberron certainly gives a good basis for them as a race. I feel like they fit better in Eberron than anywhere.
#5
zohar666
Oct 30, 2010 9:49:41 A little question: a dragon can only ascend to the position of Sovereign in death (like a canonized saint) or these positions can be attained by a living dragon too?
#6
Hellcow
Oct 30, 2010 11:19:59
A little question: a dragon can only ascend to the position of Sovereign in death (like a canonized saint) or these positions can be attained by a living dragon too?

It's like sainthood. It's known for a fact that you have a soul, and that when you die, the soul goes to Dolurrh and the memories fade. Followers of the Sovereign faiths - Thir included - believe that this "fading" isn't a matter of obliteration, but rather that the soul is slowly ascending to a higher realm that mortals simply cannot touch - the realm of the Sovereigns. A worthy dragon believes that once he has completed this transition, he will replace the current Sovereign and that dragon's spirit will ascend to the realm of the Dragon Gods. This is where the Keeper comes in; he snatches souls before they reach Dolurrh, and thus keeps them from ever undergoing this transition.

But like most faiths of Eberron, this isn't something we can know for certain. You die. Your soul goes to Dolurrh. Your memories fade. It may be that it's the begining of a spiritual journey - as the vassals belive - or that it's the end of it, as followers of the Blood of Vol say. The only way to find out is to die.

Now, a dragon who believes he is a worthy successor to the role of Aureon is likely an amazing mage who will be a mighty force in life. He might even present himself as "Aureon" to mortals; perhaps he has visions or dreams that he believes come from the current Aureon, suggesting that he act as an Exarch. But it's not until death that he's going to actually become the Sovereign - because a Sovereign isn't something that can be contained in a mortal frame. By the mythology, Dol Dorn is present at every battle. The Devourer is there with every storm. They are a fundamental part of reality... and that takes a spiritual evolution. Assuming, aof course, the myths are true.
#7
hanzo187
Oct 31, 2010 18:12:24 Assuming the myths are true (we'll say they are for the sake of argument), I almost find it ironic that The Keeper impedes the progress of the Sovereigns. He may crave souls, but I would think it would be impossible for the Keeper to take a potential Sovereign. It would almost seem like it would defy the very nature of the Sovereignty itself.

Then again, I did find it interesting that it is possible that the Keeper of the Silver Flame could be an aspect of The Keeper, in its own way. Since the Church of the Silver Flame believes that when a person dies, their spirit joins the Silver Flame, it's entirely possible The Keeper is really not as evil as the people of Eberron think. It may simply be an entity that draws souls to a different place. Since the people of Eberron don't know this place, they automatically view it as evil.

Just looking at the Dark Six, most of them represent primal or unpredictable forces (Devourer for nature, Traveler for change, Keeper for death), but some have negative undertones (Shadow for dark magic, Fury for rage (but also PASSION, which isn't evil if controlled), and Mockery for dishonor and betrayal), but unpredictable isn't evil. I'd be willing to bet many in the Sovereign Host simply dislike the Dark Six because they oversee things they can't control.

Even so, it must be pointed out that death comes for everyone except the Overlords. Death in and of itself is not an evil thing, as evidenced by Balinor's doctrine. It's merely a part of life.
#8
Hellcow
Oct 31, 2010 18:44:22
it's entirely possible The Keeper is really not as evil as the people of Eberron think.

Actually, per canon, not all the people of Eberron think the Keeper is evil. The Restful Watch is a sect of the SH that reveres the Keeper and Aureon, stating that the Keeper is not an evil deity, but rather snatches souls from Dolurrh in order to preserve them from the fading effect of that plane, keeping them until the time is right for them to return to Eberron and fulfill their destinies... because once you go through Dolurrh, even if you are going to become a Sovereign or just hang out with them, your time on this world is done.

I'd be willing to bet many in the Sovereign Host simply dislike the Dark Six because they oversee things they can't control.

That's actually the fundamental doctrine of Droaam's followers of the Dark Six - the Dark Six aren't evil, the people of the east simply see them that way because they fear the forces they represent.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 juanpierre Oct 23, 2010 23:43:03	I'm starting a dragonborn PC from Q'barra, and I'd like to find a little information on the Dragon Sovereigns. I read the little bit in Dragons of Eberron, and there's nothing in Faiths of Eberron. I get the whole idea of them, but I didn't know if there is any more specific info-- especially names. The only one I can find is Ourelonastrix for Aureon. Is there a comprehensive list?
#2 hanzo187 Oct 25, 2010 20:39:59	There was a thread about the gods I made several months back. It had some info on Thir, the religion of the dragons. Here's the link. community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
#3 Hellcow Oct 26, 2010 22:22:23	As a side note, while many of the names are out there (though I'd have to dig to find them all, and sadly I don't have time at the moment)... when I played a dragonborn paladin from Q'barra, I actually just invoked them by their color. Aureon was "The Blue", Dol Dorn "The Silver", etc. In part, this is because by Thir, the position of Sovereign isn't a permanent one. Ourelonastrix may have been the first of his kind, but he's likely moved on. Though with that in mind, it would make even more sense to say "Lord of Law and Lore!" - because the current Sovereign of these things may not be blue. While I played the character for a long time, I actually had a dramatic shift where he became a cleric (I just wasn't enjoying the paladin class) of the Prophecy itself; the thought was that he'd found a higher calling that his faith in the Dragon Sovereigns.
#4 juanpierre Oct 29, 2010 19:45:30	I like that. It does fit with the faith of Thir. I've never played a dragonborn before, mainly because I didn't get into their fluff. But the dragon myth basis of Eberron certainly gives a good basis for them as a race. I feel like they fit better in Eberron than anywhere.
#5 zohar666 Oct 30, 2010 9:49:41	A little question: a dragon can only ascend to the position of Sovereign in death (like a canonized saint) or these positions can be attained by a living dragon too?
#6 Hellcow Oct 30, 2010 11:19:59	A little question: a dragon can only ascend to the position of Sovereign in death (like a canonized saint) or these positions can be attained by a living dragon too? It's like sainthood. It's known for a fact that you have a soul, and that when you die, the soul goes to Dolurrh and the memories fade. Followers of the Sovereign faiths - Thir included - believe that this "fading" isn't a matter of obliteration, but rather that the soul is slowly ascending to a higher realm that mortals simply cannot touch - the realm of the Sovereigns. A worthy dragon believes that once he has completed this transition, he will replace the current Sovereign and that dragon's spirit will ascend to the realm of the Dragon Gods. This is where the Keeper comes in; he snatches souls before they reach Dolurrh, and thus keeps them from ever undergoing this transition. But like most faiths of Eberron, this isn't something we can know for certain. You die. Your soul goes to Dolurrh. Your memories fade. It may be that it's the begining of a spiritual journey - as the vassals belive - or that it's the end of it, as followers of the Blood of Vol say. The only way to find out is to die. Now, a dragon who believes he is a worthy successor to the role of Aureon is likely an amazing mage who will be a mighty force in life. He might even present himself as "Aureon" to mortals; perhaps he has visions or dreams that he believes come from the current Aureon, suggesting that he act as an Exarch. But it's not until death that he's going to actually become the Sovereign - because a Sovereign isn't something that can be contained in a mortal frame. By the mythology, Dol Dorn is present at every battle. The Devourer is there with every storm. They are a fundamental part of reality... and that takes a spiritual evolution. Assuming, aof course, the myths are true.
#7 hanzo187 Oct 31, 2010 18:12:24	Assuming the myths are true (we'll say they are for the sake of argument), I almost find it ironic that The Keeper impedes the progress of the Sovereigns. He may crave souls, but I would think it would be impossible for the Keeper to take a potential Sovereign. It would almost seem like it would defy the very nature of the Sovereignty itself. Then again, I did find it interesting that it is possible that the Keeper of the Silver Flame could be an aspect of The Keeper, in its own way. Since the Church of the Silver Flame believes that when a person dies, their spirit joins the Silver Flame, it's entirely possible The Keeper is really not as evil as the people of Eberron think. It may simply be an entity that draws souls to a different place. Since the people of Eberron don't know this place, they automatically view it as evil. Just looking at the Dark Six, most of them represent primal or unpredictable forces (Devourer for nature, Traveler for change, Keeper for death), but some have negative undertones (Shadow for dark magic, Fury for rage (but also PASSION, which isn't evil if controlled), and Mockery for dishonor and betrayal), but unpredictable isn't evil. I'd be willing to bet many in the Sovereign Host simply dislike the Dark Six because they oversee things they can't control. Even so, it must be pointed out that death comes for everyone except the Overlords. Death in and of itself is not an evil thing, as evidenced by Balinor's doctrine. It's merely a part of life.
#8 Hellcow Oct 31, 2010 18:44:22	it's entirely possible The Keeper is really not as evil as the people of Eberron think. Actually, per canon, not all the people of Eberron think the Keeper is evil. The Restful Watch is a sect of the SH that reveres the Keeper and Aureon, stating that the Keeper is not an evil deity, but rather snatches souls from Dolurrh in order to preserve them from the fading effect of that plane, keeping them until the time is right for them to return to Eberron and fulfill their destinies... because once you go through Dolurrh, even if you are going to become a Sovereign or just hang out with them, your time on this world is done. I'd be willing to bet many in the Sovereign Host simply dislike the Dark Six because they oversee things they can't control. That's actually the fundamental doctrine of Droaam's followers of the Dark Six - the Dark Six aren't evil, the people of the east simply see them that way because they fear the forces they represent.