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Dragonborn Paladin question

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
ax_kidson
Dec 01, 2009 17:33:25 My group have been playing the 'points of light' campaign for a little while and have decided to change to the eberron campaign setting (probably something to do with me blowing up the bar they were in and responding "its eberron what do you expect)

No for the serious question
We had a Dragon Born Paladin of Bahumat (sorry for poor spelling) with him now being in an eberron game do i need to change his god?

Does Bahumat exist in eberron if so is he still the shining example we have come to know and love
Or should i change him to being a follower of Syberis ?
#2
Gilo
Dec 01, 2009 21:34:19 There was some discussion about it here:

To be clear, are we saying it is considered blasphemy for the Dragonborn to worship the Draconic Pantheon?

NthDegree has it right: by canon, that is what we are saying. The doctrine of Thir is that the Sovereigns ARE gods - the lowest tier of god, perhaps, but they are gods tasked with watching over the lower races. Despite being dragon-like humanoids, the dragonborn are not dragons. A dragonborn in the Light of Siberys would surely know the name of Bahamut, and be expected to show due respect to his priests and his sign. But he shouldn't direct his prayers to Bahamut. If he's a cleric, he shouldn't invoke Bahamut; he should call upon Dol Arrah, the Sovereign who governs the same sphere. According to DoE:
The dragons guard their faith as if it were a precious jewel. Some students of draconic lore claim that, behind their disdain for the prayers of lesser creatures, another rationale exists. The dragons are actually afraid that if the lesser creatures turned to the worship of the true deities, they might be judged worthy of ascension . . . ultimately stealing the dragons’ sole claim to the heavens.

This leaves a variety of options. You could decide that the Draconic pantheon doesn't actually exist; there's no concrete evidence that it does. If you LIKE the Draconic pantheon, you can ignore canon and say that the dragonborn are allowed to worship them. Alternately, you could have the dragonborn paladin who has been personally called by Bahamut and who is thus EXACTLY what the dragons are described as being afraid of - a lesser creature stealing the favor of their private gods. This would anger them, but if he truly has been chosen by Bahamut, do they dare to strike at him directly? But by canon, dragonborn receive no special dispensation. They are expected to worship the Sovereigns, who again, ARE divine beings under the doctrine of Thir and possess dominion over the world. They are certainly gods fit for any little dragonborn. It's simply that the Draconic pantheon stands in the shadows behind them.

#3
veltharis_ap_rylix
Dec 02, 2009 1:38:38 I think it really depends on nature of your dragonborn... One of the wonderful things about Eberron is that even the most exotic of races can fit in just about anywhere. Though dragonborn in Khorvaire generally come from the jungles of Q'barra (having migrated there millenia earlier from the continent of Argonnessen), there is nothing to stop your particular dragonborn from being from one of the Five Nations, and thus following one of the "human" religions.

While Bahamut does "technically" still exist (insofar as any of the gods exist) within Eberron, he is a member of the Draconic pantheon of the religion called Thir. This, in addition to being all but unknown outside the continent of Argonnessen, makes him a rather risky choice, as the dragons don't look fondly on members of the "lesser" races worshiping one of their gods, particularly when Thir includes a separate pantheon (which bears great similarity to the Sovereign Host and Dark Six) specifically for the worship of those lesser races.

The most logical choices of deities, in my opinion, would probably be either Dol Arrah or the Silver Flame.

Dol Arrah is a member of the Sovereign Host, the most dominant religion of Khorvaire. She is the goddess of the sun, honor, and warfare, and is probably the most effective mirror of the core Bahamut's teachings.

The Silver Flame is not a deity in the traditional sense, but rather a gestalt consciousness which serves as a prison for the Rajahs of the Ages of Demons, along with a host of lesser fiends. Based mainly out of Thrane, the followers of the Silver Flame put great focus on protecting and helping others as well as destroying/imprisoning evil, particularly of a supernatural nature (demons, abberations, etc.).
#4
ax_kidson
Dec 02, 2009 19:50:25 Sorry left out that the paladin comes from argonessen
But would it make sence if he did worship Siberyis?

And thanks for the help
#5
Gilo
Dec 02, 2009 23:30:44
Sorry left out that the paladin comes from argonessen
But would it make sence if he did worship Siberyis?

Siberyis is dead, killed by Khyber. The Progenitors are just too vast and abstract to be worshiped as proper gods - it will be more in the realm of mysticism which is a sorcerer or druid thing.

#6
ellorin
Dec 03, 2009 7:10:48 Besides, Dol Arrah, goddess of self-sacrifice, honourable combat and the sun is probably the closest deity to Bahamut. She is sometimes depicted as a red dragon(all members of the host have a draconic depiction. See Thir).
#7
Alex_
Dec 03, 2009 21:56:23
Besides, Dol Arrah, goddess of self-sacrifice, honourable combart and the sun is probably the closest deity to Bahamut. She is sometimes depicted as a red dragon(every members of the host have a draconic depiction. See Thir).

Go with this. The followers of the Soverign Host already worship depictions of dragons. The Silver Flame also has very close associations with Dragons and Couatls historically. Either could work.
#8
Omen_of_Peace
Dec 04, 2009 11:17:20
Sorry left out that the paladin comes from argonessen
But would it make sence if he did worship Siberyis?

Siberyis is dead, killed by Khyber. The Progenitors are just too vast and abstract to be worshiped as proper gods - it will be more in the realm of mysticism which is a sorcerer or druid thing.

I disagree: a paladin can be a mystic as well. I've had characters worship Siberys in the past - it was quite interesting.

It is certainly a non-standard choice.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 ax_kidson Dec 01, 2009 17:33:25	My group have been playing the 'points of light' campaign for a little while and have decided to change to the eberron campaign setting (probably something to do with me blowing up the bar they were in and responding "its eberron what do you expect) No for the serious question We had a Dragon Born Paladin of Bahumat (sorry for poor spelling) with him now being in an eberron game do i need to change his god? Does Bahumat exist in eberron if so is he still the shining example we have come to know and love Or should i change him to being a follower of Syberis ?
#2 Gilo Dec 01, 2009 21:34:19	There was some discussion about it here: To be clear, are we saying it is considered blasphemy for the Dragonborn to worship the Draconic Pantheon? NthDegree has it right: by canon, that is what we are saying. The doctrine of Thir is that the Sovereigns ARE gods - the lowest tier of god, perhaps, but they are gods tasked with watching over the lower races. Despite being dragon-like humanoids, the dragonborn are not dragons. A dragonborn in the Light of Siberys would surely know the name of Bahamut, and be expected to show due respect to his priests and his sign. But he shouldn't direct his prayers to Bahamut. If he's a cleric, he shouldn't invoke Bahamut; he should call upon Dol Arrah, the Sovereign who governs the same sphere. According to DoE: The dragons guard their faith as if it were a precious jewel. Some students of draconic lore claim that, behind their disdain for the prayers of lesser creatures, another rationale exists. The dragons are actually afraid that if the lesser creatures turned to the worship of the true deities, they might be judged worthy of ascension . . . ultimately stealing the dragons’ sole claim to the heavens. This leaves a variety of options. You could decide that the Draconic pantheon doesn't actually exist; there's no concrete evidence that it does. If you LIKE the Draconic pantheon, you can ignore canon and say that the dragonborn are allowed to worship them. Alternately, you could have the dragonborn paladin who has been personally called by Bahamut and who is thus EXACTLY what the dragons are described as being afraid of - a lesser creature stealing the favor of their private gods. This would anger them, but if he truly has been chosen by Bahamut, do they dare to strike at him directly? But by canon, dragonborn receive no special dispensation. They are expected to worship the Sovereigns, who again, ARE divine beings under the doctrine of Thir and possess dominion over the world. They are certainly gods fit for any little dragonborn. It's simply that the Draconic pantheon stands in the shadows behind them.
#3 veltharis_ap_rylix Dec 02, 2009 1:38:38	I think it really depends on nature of your dragonborn... One of the wonderful things about Eberron is that even the most exotic of races can fit in just about anywhere. Though dragonborn in Khorvaire generally come from the jungles of Q'barra (having migrated there millenia earlier from the continent of Argonnessen), there is nothing to stop your particular dragonborn from being from one of the Five Nations, and thus following one of the "human" religions. While Bahamut does "technically" still exist (insofar as any of the gods exist) within Eberron, he is a member of the Draconic pantheon of the religion called Thir. This, in addition to being all but unknown outside the continent of Argonnessen, makes him a rather risky choice, as the dragons don't look fondly on members of the "lesser" races worshiping one of their gods, particularly when Thir includes a separate pantheon (which bears great similarity to the Sovereign Host and Dark Six) specifically for the worship of those lesser races. The most logical choices of deities, in my opinion, would probably be either Dol Arrah or the Silver Flame. Dol Arrah is a member of the Sovereign Host, the most dominant religion of Khorvaire. She is the goddess of the sun, honor, and warfare, and is probably the most effective mirror of the core Bahamut's teachings. The Silver Flame is not a deity in the traditional sense, but rather a gestalt consciousness which serves as a prison for the Rajahs of the Ages of Demons, along with a host of lesser fiends. Based mainly out of Thrane, the followers of the Silver Flame put great focus on protecting and helping others as well as destroying/imprisoning evil, particularly of a supernatural nature (demons, abberations, etc.).
#4 ax_kidson Dec 02, 2009 19:50:25	Sorry left out that the paladin comes from argonessen But would it make sence if he did worship Siberyis? And thanks for the help
#5 Gilo Dec 02, 2009 23:30:44	Sorry left out that the paladin comes from argonessen But would it make sence if he did worship Siberyis? Siberyis is dead, killed by Khyber. The Progenitors are just too vast and abstract to be worshiped as proper gods - it will be more in the realm of mysticism which is a sorcerer or druid thing.
#6 ellorin Dec 03, 2009 7:10:48	Besides, Dol Arrah, goddess of self-sacrifice, honourable combat and the sun is probably the closest deity to Bahamut. She is sometimes depicted as a red dragon(all members of the host have a draconic depiction. See Thir).
#7 Alex_ Dec 03, 2009 21:56:23	Besides, Dol Arrah, goddess of self-sacrifice, honourable combart and the sun is probably the closest deity to Bahamut. She is sometimes depicted as a red dragon(every members of the host have a draconic depiction. See Thir). Go with this. The followers of the Soverign Host already worship depictions of dragons. The Silver Flame also has very close associations with Dragons and Couatls historically. Either could work.
#8 Omen_of_Peace Dec 04, 2009 11:17:20	Sorry left out that the paladin comes from argonessen But would it make sence if he did worship Siberyis? Siberyis is dead, killed by Khyber. The Progenitors are just too vast and abstract to be worshiped as proper gods - it will be more in the realm of mysticism which is a sorcerer or druid thing. I disagree: a paladin can be a mystic as well. I've had characters worship Siberys in the past - it was quite interesting. It is certainly a non-standard choice.