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Dragonmark Feats

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
EscherEnigma
Jun 24, 2009 15:07:21 So I finally got my book in the mail today and...

Wow. The dragonmark feats really aren't what I was expecting. I'm trying to keep an open mind here, but some of those dragonmark feats seem to be more then a little overpowered, with the non-combat feats being worse offenders then the others (Mark of Scribing effectively gives you an improved Ritual Caster, an improved Linguist, and 2/3rds of Skill Focus, but without any of the pre-reqs. Mark of Making gives you Alchemy and a useful portion of Ritual Caster.)

Now, I know that these are different in that they're, generally speaking, permanent (unlike most feats) and that a character can only have one, but still...

Am I the only one seeing this?
#2
malignant_narcissist
Jun 24, 2009 15:11:26 No, I see the big problem with those marks, too [Especially scribing. Making doesn't scare me too much as you still need to pay for the components, but it is quite powerful].

I'm not going to change anything, but I do feel that those marks justify a limit on marks a DM allows in his party.

Of course, any PC with a mark should have a huge roleplaying bill to pay, regardless of house membership.
#3
xi_mao
Jun 24, 2009 15:59:33 I second Malignant_Narcissist in the regards of Roleplaying. The dragonmarks are very powerful in a vacuum, however in Eberron the social ramifications of being Dragonmarked can more than counteract the bonuses you receive.
#4
stogoe
Jun 26, 2009 7:34:51 Most of the dragonmarks are worth a small portion of Ritual Caster, plus a smidge for the extra bonus. Maybe Scribing and Making are above and beyond, but Mark of Deception for example gives you one ritual category out of eight. Even Making gives you only Creation rituals (though also Alchemy on top of that, so...)
#5
fourthdimensional
Jun 27, 2009 9:15:50 Don't you still have to pay for the rituals? And don't you still have to be of the appropriate level to master them? I mean, all it says is "as if you had the Ritual Caster feat," not "as if you had them in a ritual book and were of the required level to master it."

The ritual half your mark is a stunted version of Ritual Caster, not an improved one, I think.
#6
stogoe
Jun 27, 2009 11:09:54 The problem is that the Mark of Scribing gives you

The whole Ritual Caster feat.
The whole Linguist Feat.
Skill Focus Diplomacy.
Fast Scroll Scribing.

That's three feats plus at the minimum right there. Now granted, Linguist and SF Diplomacy are situationally taken feats, but they're still individual feats.
#7
lyran
Jun 27, 2009 13:20:47
I second Malignant_Narcissist in the regards of Roleplaying. The dragonmarks are very powerful in a vacuum, however in Eberron the social ramifications of being Dragonmarked can more than counteract the bonuses you receive.

Yeah I agree with ^this^. Although there is one mark in particular that seems over powered to me; the Mark of Passage. Why? Well look at all the rituals it gets! How is House Lyrander going to compete if their biggest competitor can use all the same rituals they can?!
#8
xi_mao
Jun 27, 2009 17:48:35
Yeah I agree with ^this^. Although there is one mark in particular that seems over powered to me; the Mark of Passage. Why? Well look at all the rituals it gets! How is House Lyrander going to compete if their biggest competitor can use all the same rituals they can?!

I think Keith said that Lyrandar should be able to use Control Weather on top of what they get, which would give them an edge in the areas they excel in, namely transportation via Sea and Air. Orien should to a much better job getting across a continent by land.

Speaking of Orien...does anyone else think that they got their name because of Film Noir and the Lightning Rail?

I mean...I can't be the only one thinking "Let's run a game called Murder on the Orien Express." Right?
#9
salla
Jun 27, 2009 18:03:43
I second Malignant_Narcissist in the regards of Roleplaying. The dragonmarks are very powerful in a vacuum, however in Eberron the social ramifications of being Dragonmarked can more than counteract the bonuses you receive.

That shouldn't be accounted for in issues of game balance, because an individual DM may or may not utilize such.
#10
xi_mao
Jun 27, 2009 18:58:29
That shouldn't be accounted for in issues of game balance, because an individual DM may or may not utilize such.

Equally, an individual DM may or may not allow the EPG at their table.

I understand what you're saying and for the most part, I agree that the DM has the final say about what does and does not affect the character, but I feel like the Marks were designed for use in Eberron as much as Spell-Scarred was designed for use in the Realms. Thus, the social ramifications of the marks should come into play when the marks are used with the world they're intended for.

I mean, I don't think anyone wants to use Warhammer 40k Space Marines in their games of D&D...
#11
salla
Jun 27, 2009 19:06:42
Equally, an individual DM may or may not allow the EPG at their table.

I understand what you're saying and for the most part, I agree that the DM has the final say about what does and does not affect the character, but I feel like the Marks were designed for use in Eberron as much as Spell-Scarred was designed for use in the Realms. Thus, the social ramifications of the marks should come into play when the marks are used with the world they're intended for.

I mean, I don't think anyone wants to use Warhammer 40k Space Marines in their games of D&D...

Should, yes, I agree. But not everybody will, whether they're choosing to downplay House interference in their game, or they're simply hack'n'slashing.
#12
xi_mao
Jun 28, 2009 19:34:51 Then I'm glad that I DM Eberron for my group! :D
#13
anguirus23
Jun 28, 2009 20:19:54 Language has such a minimal mechanical effect on the game that I'm astonished anyone cares about that. Powergamers certainly won't. +2 Diplomacy is nice, but redundant for many characters. Scrolls in half the normal time is another minor benefit, at best.

It's strictly better than Ritual Caster, sure, but who cares? Most characters who actually care about rituals take a class that gets it as a freebie. Characters who care about talking to everything in the game can play a kalashtar or learn Supernal at a higher level...and unfortunately, whether you do it with Linguist or with a Sivis mark you are probably trading combat efficacy for languages so either way applaud your non-powergaming player. +2 Diplomacy might be coveted by certain characters but it's relatively minor.
#14
smacintush
Jun 30, 2009 2:53:12
Language has such a minimal mechanical effect on the game that I'm astonished anyone cares about that. Powergamers certainly won't. +2 Diplomacy is nice, but redundant for many characters. Scrolls in half the normal time is another minor benefit, at best.

It's strictly better than Ritual Caster, sure, but who cares? Most characters who actually care about rituals take a class that gets it as a freebie. Characters who care about talking to everything in the game can play a kalashtar or learn Supernal at a higher level...and unfortunately, whether you do it with Linguist or with a Sivis mark you are probably trading combat efficacy for languages so either way applaud your non-powergaming player. +2 Diplomacy might be coveted by certain characters but it's relatively minor.

This.
#15
AvonRekaes
Jun 30, 2009 9:37:34
Language has such a minimal mechanical effect on the game that I'm astonished anyone cares about that. Powergamers certainly won't. +2 Diplomacy is nice, but redundant for many characters. Scrolls in half the normal time is another minor benefit, at best.

It's strictly better than Ritual Caster, sure, but who cares? Most characters who actually care about rituals take a class that gets it as a freebie. Characters who care about talking to everything in the game can play a kalashtar or learn Supernal at a higher level...and unfortunately, whether you do it with Linguist or with a Sivis mark you are probably trading combat efficacy for languages so either way applaud your non-powergaming player. +2 Diplomacy might be coveted by certain characters but it's relatively minor.

(As a side note: Characters that learn to speak Supernal do not gain the ability to have anything and everything understand them. Check the DMG)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 EscherEnigma Jun 24, 2009 15:07:21	So I finally got my book in the mail today and... Wow. The dragonmark feats really aren't what I was expecting. I'm trying to keep an open mind here, but some of those dragonmark feats seem to be more then a little overpowered, with the non-combat feats being worse offenders then the others (Mark of Scribing effectively gives you an improved Ritual Caster, an improved Linguist, and 2/3rds of Skill Focus, but without any of the pre-reqs. Mark of Making gives you Alchemy and a useful portion of Ritual Caster.) Now, I know that these are different in that they're, generally speaking, permanent (unlike most feats) and that a character can only have one, but still... Am I the only one seeing this?
#2 malignant_narcissist Jun 24, 2009 15:11:26	No, I see the big problem with those marks, too [Especially scribing. Making doesn't scare me too much as you still need to pay for the components, but it is quite powerful]. I'm not going to change anything, but I do feel that those marks justify a limit on marks a DM allows in his party. Of course, any PC with a mark should have a huge roleplaying bill to pay, regardless of house membership.
#3 xi_mao Jun 24, 2009 15:59:33	I second Malignant_Narcissist in the regards of Roleplaying. The dragonmarks are very powerful in a vacuum, however in Eberron the social ramifications of being Dragonmarked can more than counteract the bonuses you receive.
#4 stogoe Jun 26, 2009 7:34:51	Most of the dragonmarks are worth a small portion of Ritual Caster, plus a smidge for the extra bonus. Maybe Scribing and Making are above and beyond, but Mark of Deception for example gives you one ritual category out of eight. Even Making gives you only Creation rituals (though also Alchemy on top of that, so...)
#5 fourthdimensional Jun 27, 2009 9:15:50	Don't you still have to pay for the rituals? And don't you still have to be of the appropriate level to master them? I mean, all it says is "as if you had the Ritual Caster feat," not "as if you had them in a ritual book and were of the required level to master it." The ritual half your mark is a stunted version of Ritual Caster, not an improved one, I think.
#6 stogoe Jun 27, 2009 11:09:54	The problem is that the Mark of Scribing gives you The whole Ritual Caster feat. The whole Linguist Feat. Skill Focus Diplomacy. Fast Scroll Scribing. That's three feats plus at the minimum right there. Now granted, Linguist and SF Diplomacy are situationally taken feats, but they're still individual feats.
#7 lyran Jun 27, 2009 13:20:47	I second Malignant_Narcissist in the regards of Roleplaying. The dragonmarks are very powerful in a vacuum, however in Eberron the social ramifications of being Dragonmarked can more than counteract the bonuses you receive. Yeah I agree with ^this^. Although there is one mark in particular that seems over powered to me; the Mark of Passage. Why? Well look at all the rituals it gets! How is House Lyrander going to compete if their biggest competitor can use all the same rituals they can?!
#8 xi_mao Jun 27, 2009 17:48:35	Yeah I agree with ^this^. Although there is one mark in particular that seems over powered to me; the Mark of Passage. Why? Well look at all the rituals it gets! How is House Lyrander going to compete if their biggest competitor can use all the same rituals they can?! I think Keith said that Lyrandar should be able to use Control Weather on top of what they get, which would give them an edge in the areas they excel in, namely transportation via Sea and Air. Orien should to a much better job getting across a continent by land. Speaking of Orien...does anyone else think that they got their name because of Film Noir and the Lightning Rail? I mean...I can't be the only one thinking "Let's run a game called Murder on the Orien Express." Right?
#9 salla Jun 27, 2009 18:03:43	I second Malignant_Narcissist in the regards of Roleplaying. The dragonmarks are very powerful in a vacuum, however in Eberron the social ramifications of being Dragonmarked can more than counteract the bonuses you receive. That shouldn't be accounted for in issues of game balance, because an individual DM may or may not utilize such.
#10 xi_mao Jun 27, 2009 18:58:29	That shouldn't be accounted for in issues of game balance, because an individual DM may or may not utilize such. Equally, an individual DM may or may not allow the EPG at their table. I understand what you're saying and for the most part, I agree that the DM has the final say about what does and does not affect the character, but I feel like the Marks were designed for use in Eberron as much as Spell-Scarred was designed for use in the Realms. Thus, the social ramifications of the marks should come into play when the marks are used with the world they're intended for. I mean, I don't think anyone wants to use Warhammer 40k Space Marines in their games of D&D...
#11 salla Jun 27, 2009 19:06:42	Equally, an individual DM may or may not allow the EPG at their table. I understand what you're saying and for the most part, I agree that the DM has the final say about what does and does not affect the character, but I feel like the Marks were designed for use in Eberron as much as Spell-Scarred was designed for use in the Realms. Thus, the social ramifications of the marks should come into play when the marks are used with the world they're intended for. I mean, I don't think anyone wants to use Warhammer 40k Space Marines in their games of D&D... Should, yes, I agree. But not everybody will, whether they're choosing to downplay House interference in their game, or they're simply hack'n'slashing.
#12 xi_mao Jun 28, 2009 19:34:51	Then I'm glad that I DM Eberron for my group! :D
#13 anguirus23 Jun 28, 2009 20:19:54	Language has such a minimal mechanical effect on the game that I'm astonished anyone cares about that. Powergamers certainly won't. +2 Diplomacy is nice, but redundant for many characters. Scrolls in half the normal time is another minor benefit, at best. It's strictly better than Ritual Caster, sure, but who cares? Most characters who actually care about rituals take a class that gets it as a freebie. Characters who care about talking to everything in the game can play a kalashtar or learn Supernal at a higher level...and unfortunately, whether you do it with Linguist or with a Sivis mark you are probably trading combat efficacy for languages so either way applaud your non-powergaming player. +2 Diplomacy might be coveted by certain characters but it's relatively minor.
#14 smacintush Jun 30, 2009 2:53:12	Language has such a minimal mechanical effect on the game that I'm astonished anyone cares about that. Powergamers certainly won't. +2 Diplomacy is nice, but redundant for many characters. Scrolls in half the normal time is another minor benefit, at best. It's strictly better than Ritual Caster, sure, but who cares? Most characters who actually care about rituals take a class that gets it as a freebie. Characters who care about talking to everything in the game can play a kalashtar or learn Supernal at a higher level...and unfortunately, whether you do it with Linguist or with a Sivis mark you are probably trading combat efficacy for languages so either way applaud your non-powergaming player. +2 Diplomacy might be coveted by certain characters but it's relatively minor. This.
#15 AvonRekaes Jun 30, 2009 9:37:34	Language has such a minimal mechanical effect on the game that I'm astonished anyone cares about that. Powergamers certainly won't. +2 Diplomacy is nice, but redundant for many characters. Scrolls in half the normal time is another minor benefit, at best. It's strictly better than Ritual Caster, sure, but who cares? Most characters who actually care about rituals take a class that gets it as a freebie. Characters who care about talking to everything in the game can play a kalashtar or learn Supernal at a higher level...and unfortunately, whether you do it with Linguist or with a Sivis mark you are probably trading combat efficacy for languages so either way applaud your non-powergaming player. +2 Diplomacy might be coveted by certain characters but it's relatively minor. (As a side note: Characters that learn to speak Supernal do not gain the ability to have anything and everything understand them. Check the DMG)