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Dragonmark Heir Confusion!

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
LeviMiles
Sep 20, 2008 13:01:05 Hey everyone! I posted this in both Eberron forums becaus eI'm nt sure in which one it belongs! :P

I'm really confused about the whole dragonmark heir thing, because the books seem to contrdict themselves, at least, from my perspective (I'm sure they're right but I'm just not getting it!).

In the ECS it states taht Lady E is a cousin to House Caniith, but not a heir,(she's a Vown anyway), but in the next adventure she has a dragonmark, so that would make her an heir right? How this all work? Do you have to be part of the Cannith line to be an heir? Or can anyone, Vown or otherwise be an heir?

(Just using Cannith as an example)

Also how does adding the d' work? If you have the dragonmark do you add it? Or is it if you are just in the family? Anyway, thanks for the help!
#2
ninjaarthiddenjutsu_dup
Sep 20, 2008 13:17:23 It's called the authors of the books not talking to each other and taking the setting in the direction they want to instead of being consistent. Get used to it, it's one of the mainstay themes of Eberron.
#3
eehamburg
Sep 20, 2008 14:08:29 the d' thing is pretty straight forward. If you have a dragonmark then you get d'. If you don't then you don't.

Now as far as your other question, keep in mind the fact that only the sources books are canon. Novels and adventures are not. So ... only follow what the source books say.

Hope that helps.
#4
LeviMiles
Sep 20, 2008 14:14:48 Thanks!
#5
ChrisTheS
Sep 20, 2008 14:37:01 Elaydren was specifically retconned as a Cannith heir when Shadows of the Last War was released, in order to add options for continuing adventures beyond the scope of the module (such as double-crossing her boss and attempting to use the creation pattern herself). There was some extensive discussion about the discrepancy at the time, as I recall.
#6
bossemeyer
Sep 20, 2008 14:40:22 Two points i want to make and one of them was already made, Adventures and Fiction aren't Canon, they shouldn't be ignored but they aren't offical fact.

the second is how do you want an Heir to be used? personally i like to think of the type of Dragonmarked House members talked about in the source book, Dragonmarked.

The Excoriate: Kicked out Dragonmarked House Member, why? you decide. i have seen it from dating a different house member to plotting to kill another family member for power and positions... These wouldn't count as Heirs in my game... though a Heir could become one if the game story aids to it.

The Orphan: A person who renounces their Dragonmarked family, both rights and benefits, to circumvent The Korth Edicts. This may be so they can hold land, Marry Nobility, or to join the military of their beloved favorite Nation. You are not an "Heir" if you are an Orphan... like Excoriate, you could have been an Heir but events turned you off that path.

The Foundling: A person not born within the house of a Dragonmarked Family. but none the less you have a Mark. Foundings are key to bring in new blood and to keep the power of the Marks they posses in the hands of the Massive houses. Thou unless officially inducted as a family member, Foundlings wouldn't be Heirs because they can't use the house name... but if they are inducted they they can certainly be put on the right track if events give to this happening for the PC. If the PC didn't start in the House or with the Mark and wants to be an Heir, this is the path they have to take...

The Scion: A person who is of the house and often times child of a powerful Heir to the house. these members often wander... kind of like going to Europe after getting out of college before coming back and getting a job. these people wander the lands to expand their knowledge skills or just to get out of the business of the house for a few years before returning and taking up the family business. These May or May not be Heirs, its merely a matter of skill and power of their mark and their influence in the house. PC that start of with a mark or as a member of a house often will be Scions.

The Agent: this is pretty straight forward, You are a House Agent and you work for them outside the house. unlike the scion you aren't out their for your own. you have important business and you have been trusted to preform it. you are in a strong position to be an heir as you are already trusted with important tasks.

For game cruch, consider Heirs as dragonmarked PC/NPC as the paragon of their kind. they have mastered their mark and are skilled beyond their common house member, they also have greater power and their for greater responsibility or risk.

to put it best, You have Nobles and you have Royalty, and in Eberron you have Dragonmarked and you have Dragonmarked Heirs.

As far as the prefix of d', yes its only used to indicate position of a Dragonmarked. A second note is that if used with none house members the d' would be before your house name... if you are addressing who you are with another house member it would be used in front of your real family name.

So Lady E would be would be Elaydren d'Vown Cannith if she was to address herself to another House Cannith member, but outside the house she is Elaydren d'Cannith.

You could also consider that Elaydren is a Foundling and wasn't formally inducted into the family but works for it... in which case she would be Elaydren d'Vown of House Cannith as the adventure addresses her. since she is not permitted the right of name.
#7
Hellcow
Sep 20, 2008 22:09:29
Elaydren was specifically retconned as a Cannith heir when Shadows of the Last War was released...

Not exactly. As the author of both Shadows of the Last War and The Forgotten Forge, I have some insight into the matter. Elaydren wasn't retconned as an heir when SotLW was released. She was an heir from the start, and the editors of the ECS decided to change it in the ECS. My original manuscript had her as Elaydren d'Cannth; the Vown name was added during the editing stage, along with a number of other changes (such as the fact that it was originally Deneith mercenaries in the service of Cannith South that come after Elaydren at the start of SotLW).

With that said, this is something that's addressed in the PGtE and Dragonmarked, and that's always been called out (most natoably with House Tharashk, House Sivis, House Phiarlan and House Thuranni). Every house is composed of multiple bloodlines. In Phiarlan you have the Tialaen, Shol, and Elorrenthi families, among others... along with the Thuranni and Paelion lines. As such, Vown is simply one of the bloodlines within House Cannith. She's Elaydren Vown Cannith, and it's up to her to decide which name to use at any given time. The gnomes usually use all three names. Members of House Tharashk often prefer not to use the Tharashk name at all (instead going by Velderan, 'Ashta, Torrn, etc). So while the Vown name was added during the editing phase, every Cannith heir technically has another name (although IIRC, we've established that there is a Cannith family, so it's possible to be a Cannith Cannith).
#8
elrodian
Sep 21, 2008 7:57:54 Hellcow i have a question is the Vown the leading family of house Cannith. What i mean is, are they not said to be the frist family to get the mark of makeing and from the house ( not say that they did but i think that they say that in order to keep power)
#9
Hellcow
Sep 21, 2008 13:13:19
Hellcow i have a question is the Vown the leading family of house Cannith. What i mean is, are they not said to be the frist family to get the mark of makeing and from the house ( not say that they did but i think that they say that in order to keep power)

What you're referring to is more of a personal source of Vown pride as opposed to something that actually gives them significant power. This is drawn from the following quote in Dragonmarked:

Each dragonmarked family has stories about the exploits of its ancestors, although these are often contradictory. The Lyrriman gnomes of House Sivis claim that their forebears were the first to identify and unify the dragonmarked families, while members of the Vown family of House Cannith make similar claims.

The key word here is "contradictory". The Vowns are known for making this claim... but there's other families within Cannith who dispute this or tell similar tales of their own ancestors.

With that said, the Vowns have some noteworthy members. Sien Vown d'Cannith maintains the Cannith outpost in Dar Jin (per Secrets of Sarlona), while Channa Vown d'Cannith manages their facility in Stormreach (per Stormreach).
#10
davethebrave371
Sep 22, 2008 14:02:01
What you're referring to is more of a personal source of Vown pride as opposed to something that actually gives them significant power...

...The Vowns are known for making this claim... but there's other families within Cannith who dispute this or tell similar tales of their own ancestors.

We had a pair of Cannith Cannith twins who vehemently disputed the Vown family's position on the matter in my campaign.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 LeviMiles Sep 20, 2008 13:01:05	Hey everyone! I posted this in both Eberron forums becaus eI'm nt sure in which one it belongs! :P I'm really confused about the whole dragonmark heir thing, because the books seem to contrdict themselves, at least, from my perspective (I'm sure they're right but I'm just not getting it!). In the ECS it states taht Lady E is a cousin to House Caniith, but not a heir,(she's a Vown anyway), but in the next adventure she has a dragonmark, so that would make her an heir right? How this all work? Do you have to be part of the Cannith line to be an heir? Or can anyone, Vown or otherwise be an heir? (Just using Cannith as an example) Also how does adding the d' work? If you have the dragonmark do you add it? Or is it if you are just in the family? Anyway, thanks for the help!
#2 ninjaarthiddenjutsu_dup Sep 20, 2008 13:17:23	It's called the authors of the books not talking to each other and taking the setting in the direction they want to instead of being consistent. Get used to it, it's one of the mainstay themes of Eberron.
#3 eehamburg Sep 20, 2008 14:08:29	the d' thing is pretty straight forward. If you have a dragonmark then you get d'. If you don't then you don't. Now as far as your other question, keep in mind the fact that only the sources books are canon. Novels and adventures are not. So ... only follow what the source books say. Hope that helps.
#4 LeviMiles Sep 20, 2008 14:14:48	Thanks!
#5 ChrisTheS Sep 20, 2008 14:37:01	Elaydren was specifically retconned as a Cannith heir when Shadows of the Last War was released, in order to add options for continuing adventures beyond the scope of the module (such as double-crossing her boss and attempting to use the creation pattern herself). There was some extensive discussion about the discrepancy at the time, as I recall.
#6 bossemeyer Sep 20, 2008 14:40:22	Two points i want to make and one of them was already made, Adventures and Fiction aren't Canon, they shouldn't be ignored but they aren't offical fact. the second is how do you want an Heir to be used? personally i like to think of the type of Dragonmarked House members talked about in the source book, Dragonmarked. The Excoriate: Kicked out Dragonmarked House Member, why? you decide. i have seen it from dating a different house member to plotting to kill another family member for power and positions... These wouldn't count as Heirs in my game... though a Heir could become one if the game story aids to it. The Orphan: A person who renounces their Dragonmarked family, both rights and benefits, to circumvent The Korth Edicts. This may be so they can hold land, Marry Nobility, or to join the military of their beloved favorite Nation. You are not an "Heir" if you are an Orphan... like Excoriate, you could have been an Heir but events turned you off that path. The Foundling: A person not born within the house of a Dragonmarked Family. but none the less you have a Mark. Foundings are key to bring in new blood and to keep the power of the Marks they posses in the hands of the Massive houses. Thou unless officially inducted as a family member, Foundlings wouldn't be Heirs because they can't use the house name... but if they are inducted they they can certainly be put on the right track if events give to this happening for the PC. If the PC didn't start in the House or with the Mark and wants to be an Heir, this is the path they have to take... The Scion: A person who is of the house and often times child of a powerful Heir to the house. these members often wander... kind of like going to Europe after getting out of college before coming back and getting a job. these people wander the lands to expand their knowledge skills or just to get out of the business of the house for a few years before returning and taking up the family business. These May or May not be Heirs, its merely a matter of skill and power of their mark and their influence in the house. PC that start of with a mark or as a member of a house often will be Scions. The Agent: this is pretty straight forward, You are a House Agent and you work for them outside the house. unlike the scion you aren't out their for your own. you have important business and you have been trusted to preform it. you are in a strong position to be an heir as you are already trusted with important tasks. For game cruch, consider Heirs as dragonmarked PC/NPC as the paragon of their kind. they have mastered their mark and are skilled beyond their common house member, they also have greater power and their for greater responsibility or risk. to put it best, You have Nobles and you have Royalty, and in Eberron you have Dragonmarked and you have Dragonmarked Heirs. As far as the prefix of d', yes its only used to indicate position of a Dragonmarked. A second note is that if used with none house members the d' would be before your house name... if you are addressing who you are with another house member it would be used in front of your real family name. So Lady E would be would be Elaydren d'Vown Cannith if she was to address herself to another House Cannith member, but outside the house she is Elaydren d'Cannith. You could also consider that Elaydren is a Foundling and wasn't formally inducted into the family but works for it... in which case she would be Elaydren d'Vown of House Cannith as the adventure addresses her. since she is not permitted the right of name.
#7 Hellcow Sep 20, 2008 22:09:29	Elaydren was specifically retconned as a Cannith heir when Shadows of the Last War was released... Not exactly. As the author of both Shadows of the Last War and The Forgotten Forge, I have some insight into the matter. Elaydren wasn't retconned as an heir when SotLW was released. She was an heir from the start, and the editors of the ECS decided to change it in the ECS. My original manuscript had her as Elaydren d'Cannth; the Vown name was added during the editing stage, along with a number of other changes (such as the fact that it was originally Deneith mercenaries in the service of Cannith South that come after Elaydren at the start of SotLW). With that said, this is something that's addressed in the PGtE and Dragonmarked, and that's always been called out (most natoably with House Tharashk, House Sivis, House Phiarlan and House Thuranni). Every house is composed of multiple bloodlines. In Phiarlan you have the Tialaen, Shol, and Elorrenthi families, among others... along with the Thuranni and Paelion lines. As such, Vown is simply one of the bloodlines within House Cannith. She's Elaydren Vown Cannith, and it's up to her to decide which name to use at any given time. The gnomes usually use all three names. Members of House Tharashk often prefer not to use the Tharashk name at all (instead going by Velderan, 'Ashta, Torrn, etc). So while the Vown name was added during the editing phase, every Cannith heir technically has another name (although IIRC, we've established that there is a Cannith family, so it's possible to be a Cannith Cannith).
#8 elrodian Sep 21, 2008 7:57:54	Hellcow i have a question is the Vown the leading family of house Cannith. What i mean is, are they not said to be the frist family to get the mark of makeing and from the house ( not say that they did but i think that they say that in order to keep power)
#9 Hellcow Sep 21, 2008 13:13:19	Hellcow i have a question is the Vown the leading family of house Cannith. What i mean is, are they not said to be the frist family to get the mark of makeing and from the house ( not say that they did but i think that they say that in order to keep power) What you're referring to is more of a personal source of Vown pride as opposed to something that actually gives them significant power. This is drawn from the following quote in Dragonmarked: Each dragonmarked family has stories about the exploits of its ancestors, although these are often contradictory. The Lyrriman gnomes of House Sivis claim that their forebears were the first to identify and unify the dragonmarked families, while members of the Vown family of House Cannith make similar claims. The key word here is "contradictory". The Vowns are known for making this claim... but there's other families within Cannith who dispute this or tell similar tales of their own ancestors. With that said, the Vowns have some noteworthy members. Sien Vown d'Cannith maintains the Cannith outpost in Dar Jin (per Secrets of Sarlona), while Channa Vown d'Cannith manages their facility in Stormreach (per Stormreach).
#10 davethebrave371 Sep 22, 2008 14:02:01	What you're referring to is more of a personal source of Vown pride as opposed to something that actually gives them significant power... ...The Vowns are known for making this claim... but there's other families within Cannith who dispute this or tell similar tales of their own ancestors. We had a pair of Cannith Cannith twins who vehemently disputed the Vown family's position on the matter in my campaign.