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Dueling in the Five Nations

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Ogiwan
Jul 05, 2012 13:12:14 Greetings, all. So, in my campaign, I have an upcoming duel between my party's Fighter and a Thranish Paladin of the Silver Flame (NPC), in Thrane.

Now, I want the duel to happen, so I've come up with some legal justification which I will tell to my party's brain in a jar/Medani agent. However, I'm wondering what everybody else thinks of dueling in the Five Nations? Legal? Not? Legal, with stipulations? It is established in Sharn that dueling is assault with two guilty parties; does that go for all of Breland, or just Sharn? But, what would Aundair, or Thrane, or Karrnath, or the Mror Holds think of dueling?

Discuss!
#2
iheartsharn
Jul 05, 2012 14:34:59
I tend to default to "Dueling is technically illegal, but widely tolerated". More specific to Eberron, I would assume that dueling would be common in Karrnath, and possibly legal. Karrnath is the most martial of nations and would want to encourage martial ways. I also personally see Karrnath as much less centrally controlled than the other nations, what with the warlords. Even if the crown wanted to ban dueling, it would probably have trouble enforcing that ban. As far as Aundair and Breland, I would guess illegal but tolerated many places. They are probably less tolerated in the big cities (like Sharn) as a law and order issue. I feel like Thrane could go either way. Either the duel is seen as another avenue to enforce a lawful social order, or is viewed as a sort of disruptive vigilantism.

As far as stipulations, I would assume that every nation would punish duels to the death or dismemberment harshly, even Karrnath. The nations have been on a wartime footing for a century, and would surely not want to waste manpower. I would also see stipulations against duels disrupting the peace, like participants would have to go to a specified dueling ground or simply avoid main roads and markets and the like.
#3
mutedfaithe
Jul 05, 2012 21:03:35 It's been stated that in Aundair, at least, Aurala has outlawed it, but its popular, so there's probably a few backyard duels happening. Aurala's own son is living in exile because he killed someone in a duel.

I can't see Thrane allowing dueling, it doesn't seem like something that the Silver Flame would encourage. People are supposed to be killing supernatural evils, not each other.

In Karrnath, I have this vision of them using undead as avatars, like rock-em-sock-em robots. I know they actually revere their undead, so it probably wouldn't happen, but it's an amusing thought.

That said, Sharn, City of Towers has a section on dueling on p. 127, and states that there is a long tradition of dueling in Karrnath and Thrane, and anyone who refuses a challenge in Sharn loses a lot of prestige. But it is illegal acording to the Galifar Code of Justice. Since Karrnath has the Code of Kaius, I can see it being legalized there.

#4
iheartsharn
Jul 06, 2012 15:20:38

In Karrnath, I have this vision of them using undead as avatars, like rock-em-sock-em robots. I know they actually revere their undead, so it probably wouldn't happen, but it's an amusing thought.

I can think of a few reasons this wouldn't happen. The undead are revered, the undead are a strategic resource that should not be squandered, using an undead puppet does not satisfy honor, etc.

That being said, I love it. I can't believe I never thought of that, but rest assured I will use it. Maybe I'll work it in as an underground fight club for bored aristocratic youth or whatever, or as an illegal dual between cowards.

Big ups to Mutedfaithe!
#5
mutedfaithe
Jul 07, 2012 10:04:48 You know, in an olympic fencing match, it takes 1-8 seconds to score a point. I read somewhere a Japanese sword duel generally took less then 30 seconds. That's a pretty poor spectacle. You get up to get a mug of ale and it's over before you get back. How do you fix that?

Undead matches! Watch as two Karrnath undead slug it out over 10 rounds this weekend! They lose arms, they lose legs, but it's still only a flesh wound! Buy your tickets now!
#6
iheartsharn
Jul 07, 2012 13:20:53
The more that I think about this, the more that I like it. Picture Karrnath post-war with legions of undead on its hands. The need something to do with these undead, and so Undead Fighting Championship matches become popular. The “UFC” is ostensibly run by private promoters, but quietly supported directly by the crown. Even though the truth is that Karrnath wants to keep a strong army of undead in reserve for the Next Last War, Kaius and his advisors could be promoting a judicious waste of undead fighters in spectacle as a gesture of demilitarization and disarmament. Also, seeming to take a step towards ridding itself of undead could be a great diplomatic step.

You can have some fun exploring the moral discomfort in foreign communities as the Karrn undead fighting show comes to town. Moralists and patriots from Fairhaven to Sharn would be appalled at this perversion of death actually arriving in their regions even as it rides in on a wave of popular approval. Also, there is the contrast of these same moralists happy to see Karrnath seeming to destroy its own undead as long as it happens far from their own backyards.

Sorry, I'm kind of rambling now.

... Of course, the important thing is to keep the undead army strong in the background!
#7
Captain_Kobold
Jul 10, 2012 17:54:13 Has it been stipulated that it must be a duel to the death?
I can't see Thrane of all places allowing that, or a paladin flaunting the law by issuing a challenge to the death there.

A couple of thoughts do spring to mind though.
If the fight were to take place at the embassy of a nation that does allow duelling, no laws broken. Seems a bit weaselly for a paladin though.
There might be a duelling code involving nonlethal training-type fights.
Trial by Combat is not duelling, and likely has different laws pertaining to it. Thrane is an unlikely nation to use that though.
#8
Ogiwan
Jul 10, 2012 19:45:47 Well, this is what I came up with and sent to my party's brain-in-a-jar:
-As a Paladin of the Silver Flame, he has the jurisdiction of supernatural threats, of which Grung is, because of [Grung's backstory]. Temporal threats should be handled by local law enforcement (Constables), since their focus, and the bulk of their training, is on supernatural threats.

-Duels are illegal, though because [the jerk paladin] is claiming jurisdiction, he is claiming a sort of “trial by fire.” If Grung/the party loses…then they are evildoers, but if Grung/the party wins, then they are not.

-The area of the duel is restricted to the square. Once the square is left, then life goes back to normal. If [the paladin] is harmed inside then square, it’s all well and good, but once he leaves the square, he goes back to being a law enforcement officer.

The fight itself went well. First, Grung (a half-orc Battlerager fighter) engaged the Paladin....and then the Paladin and his order, being the sort of Knights Templar Well-Intentioned Extremists, have crossbow guys pop up in second-story windows and open up. Cue a brawl in the town square. My group had fun, and it made sense to them, so I chalk it up as a solid win.
#9
iheartsharn
Jul 11, 2012 17:38:55 Glad the duel went well! This thread opened some interesting thoughts, even though I went a little off topic with the Karrn Propaganda Undead Wasting ideas.
#10
Ogiwan
Jul 12, 2012 6:58:36 Meh. Very few ideas are truely bad ideas. Any idea has a nugget that can be mined for win.
#11
Captain_Kobold
Jul 12, 2012 13:48:17 Sounds like it went well. Although I'd be interested to know whether, if the Paladin survived, he is still a Paladin.
#12
Ogiwan
Jul 13, 2012 5:39:40 The Paladin is very much dead. Much to the delight of the party members.

But, if he did survive, why would he lose his Paladinhood? Grey and Gray Morality FTW!
#13
Captain_Kobold
Jul 15, 2012 11:28:58 Sorry. I'm still thinking 3.5 Paladin conduct rules.
#14
Ogiwan
Jul 15, 2012 15:48:49 Even 3.5 Paladins still have a good deal of flexibility with Grey and Gray Morality, I would say. Especially if they go about rationalizing. "Oh, ambushing the necromancer was the right call, because if we engaged him in a stand-up fight, then he would have overwhelmed us with his foul magicks. If we didn't ambush him, we would have put innocents at risk, and that is unacceptable."
#15
Captain_Kobold
Jul 18, 2012 1:33:16 Hmmm. Sounds a little close to 'ends justify the means', which is why so many well-intentioned people in Eberron have evil alignments. A surprise attack is one thing, but betraying the principles of an honour duel should have alignment and religious repercussions, as well as outright breaking the Paladinic code of conduct.
But, as always, your game, your rules.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Ogiwan Jul 05, 2012 13:12:14	Greetings, all. So, in my campaign, I have an upcoming duel between my party's Fighter and a Thranish Paladin of the Silver Flame (NPC), in Thrane. Now, I want the duel to happen, so I've come up with some legal justification which I will tell to my party's brain in a jar/Medani agent. However, I'm wondering what everybody else thinks of dueling in the Five Nations? Legal? Not? Legal, with stipulations? It is established in Sharn that dueling is assault with two guilty parties; does that go for all of Breland, or just Sharn? But, what would Aundair, or Thrane, or Karrnath, or the Mror Holds think of dueling? Discuss!
#2 iheartsharn Jul 05, 2012 14:34:59	I tend to default to "Dueling is technically illegal, but widely tolerated". More specific to Eberron, I would assume that dueling would be common in Karrnath, and possibly legal. Karrnath is the most martial of nations and would want to encourage martial ways. I also personally see Karrnath as much less centrally controlled than the other nations, what with the warlords. Even if the crown wanted to ban dueling, it would probably have trouble enforcing that ban. As far as Aundair and Breland, I would guess illegal but tolerated many places. They are probably less tolerated in the big cities (like Sharn) as a law and order issue. I feel like Thrane could go either way. Either the duel is seen as another avenue to enforce a lawful social order, or is viewed as a sort of disruptive vigilantism. As far as stipulations, I would assume that every nation would punish duels to the death or dismemberment harshly, even Karrnath. The nations have been on a wartime footing for a century, and would surely not want to waste manpower. I would also see stipulations against duels disrupting the peace, like participants would have to go to a specified dueling ground or simply avoid main roads and markets and the like.
#3 mutedfaithe Jul 05, 2012 21:03:35	It's been stated that in Aundair, at least, Aurala has outlawed it, but its popular, so there's probably a few backyard duels happening. Aurala's own son is living in exile because he killed someone in a duel. I can't see Thrane allowing dueling, it doesn't seem like something that the Silver Flame would encourage. People are supposed to be killing supernatural evils, not each other. In Karrnath, I have this vision of them using undead as avatars, like rock-em-sock-em robots. I know they actually revere their undead, so it probably wouldn't happen, but it's an amusing thought. That said, Sharn, City of Towers has a section on dueling on p. 127, and states that there is a long tradition of dueling in Karrnath and Thrane, and anyone who refuses a challenge in Sharn loses a lot of prestige. But it is illegal acording to the Galifar Code of Justice. Since Karrnath has the Code of Kaius, I can see it being legalized there.
#4 iheartsharn Jul 06, 2012 15:20:38	In Karrnath, I have this vision of them using undead as avatars, like rock-em-sock-em robots. I know they actually revere their undead, so it probably wouldn't happen, but it's an amusing thought. I can think of a few reasons this wouldn't happen. The undead are revered, the undead are a strategic resource that should not be squandered, using an undead puppet does not satisfy honor, etc. That being said, I love it. I can't believe I never thought of that, but rest assured I will use it. Maybe I'll work it in as an underground fight club for bored aristocratic youth or whatever, or as an illegal dual between cowards. Big ups to Mutedfaithe!
#5 mutedfaithe Jul 07, 2012 10:04:48	You know, in an olympic fencing match, it takes 1-8 seconds to score a point. I read somewhere a Japanese sword duel generally took less then 30 seconds. That's a pretty poor spectacle. You get up to get a mug of ale and it's over before you get back. How do you fix that? Undead matches! Watch as two Karrnath undead slug it out over 10 rounds this weekend! They lose arms, they lose legs, but it's still only a flesh wound! Buy your tickets now!
#6 iheartsharn Jul 07, 2012 13:20:53	The more that I think about this, the more that I like it. Picture Karrnath post-war with legions of undead on its hands. The need something to do with these undead, and so Undead Fighting Championship matches become popular. The “UFC” is ostensibly run by private promoters, but quietly supported directly by the crown. Even though the truth is that Karrnath wants to keep a strong army of undead in reserve for the Next Last War, Kaius and his advisors could be promoting a judicious waste of undead fighters in spectacle as a gesture of demilitarization and disarmament. Also, seeming to take a step towards ridding itself of undead could be a great diplomatic step. You can have some fun exploring the moral discomfort in foreign communities as the Karrn undead fighting show comes to town. Moralists and patriots from Fairhaven to Sharn would be appalled at this perversion of death actually arriving in their regions even as it rides in on a wave of popular approval. Also, there is the contrast of these same moralists happy to see Karrnath seeming to destroy its own undead as long as it happens far from their own backyards. Sorry, I'm kind of rambling now. ... Of course, the important thing is to keep the undead army strong in the background!
#7 Captain_Kobold Jul 10, 2012 17:54:13	Has it been stipulated that it must be a duel to the death? I can't see Thrane of all places allowing that, or a paladin flaunting the law by issuing a challenge to the death there. A couple of thoughts do spring to mind though. If the fight were to take place at the embassy of a nation that does allow duelling, no laws broken. Seems a bit weaselly for a paladin though. There might be a duelling code involving nonlethal training-type fights. Trial by Combat is not duelling, and likely has different laws pertaining to it. Thrane is an unlikely nation to use that though.
#8 Ogiwan Jul 10, 2012 19:45:47	Well, this is what I came up with and sent to my party's brain-in-a-jar: -As a Paladin of the Silver Flame, he has the jurisdiction of supernatural threats, of which Grung is, because of [Grung's backstory]. Temporal threats should be handled by local law enforcement (Constables), since their focus, and the bulk of their training, is on supernatural threats. -Duels are illegal, though because [the jerk paladin] is claiming jurisdiction, he is claiming a sort of “trial by fire.” If Grung/the party loses…then they are evildoers, but if Grung/the party wins, then they are not. -The area of the duel is restricted to the square. Once the square is left, then life goes back to normal. If [the paladin] is harmed inside then square, it’s all well and good, but once he leaves the square, he goes back to being a law enforcement officer. The fight itself went well. First, Grung (a half-orc Battlerager fighter) engaged the Paladin....and then the Paladin and his order, being the sort of Knights Templar Well-Intentioned Extremists, have crossbow guys pop up in second-story windows and open up. Cue a brawl in the town square. My group had fun, and it made sense to them, so I chalk it up as a solid win.
#9 iheartsharn Jul 11, 2012 17:38:55	Glad the duel went well! This thread opened some interesting thoughts, even though I went a little off topic with the Karrn Propaganda Undead Wasting ideas.
#10 Ogiwan Jul 12, 2012 6:58:36	Meh. Very few ideas are truely bad ideas. Any idea has a nugget that can be mined for win.
#11 Captain_Kobold Jul 12, 2012 13:48:17	Sounds like it went well. Although I'd be interested to know whether, if the Paladin survived, he is still a Paladin.
#12 Ogiwan Jul 13, 2012 5:39:40	The Paladin is very much dead. Much to the delight of the party members. But, if he did survive, why would he lose his Paladinhood? Grey and Gray Morality FTW!
#13 Captain_Kobold Jul 15, 2012 11:28:58	Sorry. I'm still thinking 3.5 Paladin conduct rules.
#14 Ogiwan Jul 15, 2012 15:48:49	Even 3.5 Paladins still have a good deal of flexibility with Grey and Gray Morality, I would say. Especially if they go about rationalizing. "Oh, ambushing the necromancer was the right call, because if we engaged him in a stand-up fight, then he would have overwhelmed us with his foul magicks. If we didn't ambush him, we would have put innocents at risk, and that is unacceptable."
#15 Captain_Kobold Jul 18, 2012 1:33:16	Hmmm. Sounds a little close to 'ends justify the means', which is why so many well-intentioned people in Eberron have evil alignments. A surprise attack is one thing, but betraying the principles of an honour duel should have alignment and religious repercussions, as well as outright breaking the Paladinic code of conduct. But, as always, your game, your rules.