In the hands of arcane heroes, as implements. Most likely wands. These are the 4E equivalent of magic guns.
You don't even need implements. Arcane casters are magic guns all by themselves now...
Anyways, I chose the area that I chose because I sort of wanted Breland to be the people with guns. It just felt... right. I sort of looked at the world and went "Karrnath has undead, Thrane has divine aid, Aundair has its wizards, and Breland seems to be very much about artificers." That made the first guns seem more like the sort of thing that would fit into Brelish culture... so with that in mind, I felt that the part of house Cannith led by Merrix seemed to fit best. Thoughts?
I thought about the smoke powder idea, but I'm just not sure I like it. I sort of wanted the guns to feel more "modern" then flintlocks. I was actually thinking more along the line of percussion caps and early semi-automatic cartridge firearms. Stuff like WWI firearms, with the exception that I don't want to include machine guns.
Otherwise, yea, the political feel of the introduction of guns you described is pretty much exactly the sort of thing I was going for.
The crucial element to guns is, to my mind, ammunition. Without that, they're just a new kind of wand, and that's not really different enough to get nations foaming at the bit to get a hold of it. Smokepowder seemed like a logical choice. It doesn't have to be flintlock, but I personally wouldn't go past the civil war era in gun design (with the introduction of rifled barrels and limited repeater weapons), and even then perhaps only as masterwork varieties. Guns would have to be pretty new or the last war would have gone very differently. I'd use them more as they're used in Warhammer fantasy, so you've got muzzel loading rifles for the masses and some bizarre repeater weapons and bombs for the people willing to endanger their lives for more firepower.
Since I made that last post I did a bunch of research, and I still feel I want to go with Cannith south and Breland as being the origin of guns. Breland is THE industrial nation, and I feel that guns should come from such a nation. Like I said, Karrnath gets necromancy (and it is written that they can now match Aundair in magical warfare in the five nations book), Aundair has its magical troops, and Thrane has its divine magic, but Breland has industry. Also, I don't feel that guns from Cannith south takes away from Merrix's obsession with warforged, because guns will not be his obsession. They are something he has devised as a method of making money to feed his obsessions. Breland will also be in the best possition to mass produce guns (which will be how they eventually get to other nations in my campaign ark).
Now, I am not going to go into too much detail in my plot ark. There is some chance that I might run it one day online, and in the offhand chance that some of my possible feature online players might see this, I don't want to give away too many spoilers. That being said, this is how I have envisioned the "gun" itself:
It will have ammunition, it will not use gunpowder (per say). Guns will actually be called "casters" (short for spell-casters), pistols will be called wands, and rifles rods. So, there will be caster-wands, and caster-rods: their appearance will be much the same as standard early percussion cap and cartridge guns.
Mechanically, each caster will have a "hammer." This hammer will have a magical symbol emblazoned on its cap. When this magical symbol strikes a "scroll" of the right type, it causes the scroll to cast a small spell that releases an explosive burst of energy.
Next is the ammunition. This is the aspect of the guns that only House Cannith South knows how to create (for now). I'm thinking that my guns will jump right to cartridge style firearms (and skip all the steps before that) because it makes it easier to explain why nobody but Cannith can figure out how to make them. Anyways, each bullet pretty much contains a projectile tip, a casing, and a primer (as per real cartridges). The casing is filled with a mixture of ground eberron and khyber shards (and the khyber shards have to have once been used to bind a fire elemental). The primer is a small spell designed to activate when the symbol on the hammer violently strikes it. The result is the same as that of a real firearm, a small explosion that propels the projectile out along a barrel with violent force.
I'm still trying to decide on the appearance of the first fire-arms. I'm thinking going straight to cartridge casing, because such casings can hide the components required to make the casters work, which makes it easier for Cannith to keep the method of their production a secret. Perhaps some magic traps might be placed on the cartridges themselves which cause them to destroy themselves if someone tries to take them apart. Otherwise, I was thinking the first casters (or firecasters) will pretty much be like a mix of early parlor pistols and the army pistols and rifles of the American civil war... so, basically, there would be two of each type. There would be a revolver pistol and a single internal pistol, and a revolver rifle and a single internal rifle. In each case, the single internals would deal more damage (but would have to be reloaded after one shot), and the revolvers would deal less damage, but could be fired six times before someone would have to reload them.
Repeater-casters and magic tanks will be something that I save for "The Next War."
Thoughts?
Personally, I think it makes sense and feels fine to have flintlocks and similar guns spread throughout Khorvaire, but perhaps the volatile chemical nature of the ammunition or the many moving parts in the gun makes it hard to enchant. Some rule of magic enchantment, perhaps, where it's easier to enchant a single solid piece of steel like a sword then it is to enchant a bunch of interchangeable rifle parts. I think there would have to be some reason that people think guns are useful, but not particularly better than bows and swords, and not worthwhile enough to research heavily (because we don't want Warforged Gattling Gun attachments.... or.... do we? ;) )
Khorvaire seems so industrialized (or, magically industrialized, if you prefer) that I imagine most new inventions would spread throughout all the major nations pretty quickly. If Breland had guns, and guns were useful, I can't imagine Karrnath or Aundair just sitting around for months thinking "Wow, those gun-things sure are fancy, if only we understood how they worked..." They'd have changeling spies, Aurum merchants, and Cannith entrepeneurs on their doorstep within five minutes all offering detailed instructions on how to set up a gun factory that's even better than what they have in Breland.
Personally, I think it makes sense and feels fine to have flintlocks and similar guns spread throughout Khorvaire, but perhaps the volatile chemical nature of the ammunition or the many moving parts in the gun makes it hard to enchant. Some rule of magic enchantment, perhaps, where it's easier to enchant a single solid piece of steel like a sword then it is to enchant a bunch of interchangeable rifle parts. I think there would have to be some reason that people think guns are useful, but not particularly better than bows and swords, and not worthwhile enough to research heavily (because we don't want Warforged Gattling Gun attachments.... or.... do we? ;) )
1) I'm not going with flintlocks. As I have said, I'm jumping straight to early percussion caps and cartridge firearms. :P
2) I plan to have guns introduced to the world as a whole with the first quest. By the end of the first quest, events will transpire that DO lead guns to spread across all of Khorvaire. Pretty much, the events (of the sort you described) are going to be the basis of the plot for my first 4e quest. That being said, countries will still have to go to Cannith South to purchase working ammunition. I don't picture that Cannith South keeping the way such ammunition works is that much of stretch of believability... I mean, after all, did anybody but house Cannith build warforged?
3) As for guns being better than bows or swords, at least in my version of the setting, its going to be yes and no. A non-magical sword/bow is not as good as a gun. A magical sword or bow, however, will be. Also, its not guns that led swords to become obsolete on the battlefield, its machine guns. Those, as I have stated, are not going to be featured in my setting. So, the fact that heavily armored (probably in magic armor) soldiers can charge into rifle wielding military unites (without being mowed down an mass by machine gun fire) and then chop them to little bits at close range will still leave melee weapons as a viable and popular tool of war. :D
I always found it strange that D&D has things such as alchemist's fire, alchemist's spark, thunderstones, flashpellets, and other alchemical items but not gunpowder.
It is in the DMG pg.145, personally in my campaign we have been using gunpowder as bomb & wick burn open lock & stuff ever just not for a gun...yet.
What it does is allow you to load 2 wands into the barrel and "activate" them. It gives the wands a + to hit for ranged combat, and either wand can be activated, or both.
It is in the DMG pg.145
I know. What I meant was in standard fantasy settings. The DMG entry is related to gaming in different periods of time.
I just always thought it funny that traditional D&D has spells and alchemical items that create explosions, projectile weapons and ammunition, but no one has been smart enough to put the two together.
With Eberron's "better living through magic," I think it's pretty easy to justify firearms in the setting.
Essentially, firearms changes the entire culture as evident in our own real world history.
It gives commoners a means of defending their homes from petty thieves. Hunting has a whole new approach. The Last War would have featured all new weapons and tactics. Ships have a whole new means of engaging in combat.
Essentially, firearms changes the entire culture as evident in our own real world history.
We've used them in our Eberron setting for quite some time. Contrary to most peoples ideas about them, a primitive firearm has about twice the damage value as a bolt or arrow (higher but not that much).
They are exotic weapons. You can get special bullets, adamantine, cold iron, etc. Fire them and you have a chance on criticical failure, that the gun will explode. Beyond that, fire them only if you don't mind half the dungeon knowing you're there....
A cannon (for an airship) has the same basic damage as a fireball, without the fire.
It's all for ambiance and effect, and really nothing more.
Oh, and I most certainly will not be making them an exotic weapon proficiency (or the equivalent in 4e). I want them to be about as easy to use as a cross-bow. The real reason that guns made a huge impact in our world is due to how easy it was to train someone to use one. As a poster above me stated, these will change the shape of the world not by what an adventurer can do with one, but by what a commoner can do with one.
Care to give a link to this article you were reading? Because everything I have heard about early firearms pretty much says they were capable of punching through armor with a lot more ease than traditional weapons, and basically are the reason why armor ended up falling out of use...
Granted, I may be comparing apples to oranges. I'm thinking primitive guns, i.e. flintlocks and such, and you have repeatedly said what you have in mind isn't that. I must say, kudos for that concept. I really enjoyed reading it. But I don't think you had in mind a sniping rifle from 1980 designed to punch through armor, vehicles, and what have you.
I still tend to believe that armors were not as effective against guns as other weapons, because that is what I have repeatedly read. If you can point me to an article that says otherwise, I would greatly appreciate. I would also like to know why the advent of guns also coincided with the decline of armor.
Either way, I'm not looking to have guns ignore AC. Maybe just get a +1 or 2 to hit against targets wearing armor (or something like that). Something small, which still makes bullets bouncing off armor a realistic possibility.
As I said though, I don't know exactly what I will be doing with rules. I won't until I own the 4e books.
And thank you for your compliments on my concept!
The first is size and shape of the bullet. A.50 caliber round-ball is a wee bit smaller (about 3 and half times less lead) than the .50 BMG which throws what is essentially a copper jacketed lead dart that is almost 2” long. Stream lining counts for a lot. Even more, though, is the powder and the velocity it generates.
100 grains of FFg black powder behind a 175 grain round-ball can generate approximately muzzle velocity of 2052 FPS at 1739 ft/lbs …Which ain’t bad. Due to the silly ballistic characteristics of a round ball you could knock down a deer at about 75 yards if you are not a bad shot, a little farther if you are pretty good.
100 grains of FFg black powder behind a 370 grain maxi-ball (which is about twice the size of a round ball and has better ranged ballistics) can generate approximately muzzle velocity of 1418 FPS at 1652 ft/lbs. …Which is pretty cool. You could knock down a deer at about 150 yards if you are good and lucky.
A .50 BMG using a heck of a lot more modern nitrocelulose based powder ( the casing being nearly 5" long and almost an inch in diameter at it's widest) can throw a 647 grain copper jacketed projectile at an approximate muzzle velocity of 2980 FPS at 12764 ft/lbs…which is obscene! You can core a cast iron engine block from 150 yards with no problem (which could put it in one side and out the other of a charging horse in full plate…the long way...and the poor armored shlub behind it...and maybe the guy behind him) and put down a deer at almost a mile if you have the right equipment and training.
Gotta love modernish technology.
The point is that you're not even comparing apples to oranges. The underlying technological difference between the two is so high that a person who saw the workings of a blackpowder weapon and didn't have the necessary background couldn't even conceive that, by extension the .50 BMG was even possible.
Gotta love the concept of Singularity (two coppers to anyone who can define it...I'm feeling too lazy to look it up...)
BTW I like the concept of guns in Ebberron. I would go a slightly different route because I always liked a magitech rather than steampunk solution, but very cool none the less.
WildWalker
I laughed my "derierre" off...
for you!WildWalker