Eberron and Pathfinder

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

minoritarian

Aug 20, 2008 12:01:31
Has anybody used the Pathfinder rules in Eberron and if so what adjustments did you make to the Eberron races? Any big changes to the Artificer or do you think it's balanced enough/high powered enough already to match the changes made to the base classes?

I'll make up some changes for the races and post them later if anybody is interested.

And for those who don't know Pathfinder is Paizo's 'new' rules for D&D which I guess you can consider 3.75E, it's almost completely backwards compatible with 3.5E and fixes a lot of the problems people had with 3.5 without being the absolutely massive and terrible 'fix' that 4E is. Oh, and the rule book is completely free to download from Paizo's site.
#2

Dargurd

Aug 20, 2008 12:18:32
And for those who don't know Pathfinder is Paizo's 'new' rules for D&D which I guess you can consider 3.75E, it's almost completely backwards compatible with 3.5E and fixes a lot of the problems people had with 3.5 without being the absolutely massive and terrible 'fix' that 4E is. Oh, and the rule book is completely free to download from Paizo's site.

You were doing so well until this point...

If you want to stick with 3.5 or 3.75 go ahead and do it - dont make the completely senseless rant/jibe whatever you want to call it at 4E. I really dont care that you think that D&D in its new form is terrible there are many people that actually do like it.

I personally find it far more fun in terms of both DMing and playing but guess what I still also have my 3.5 stuff and I will also play them as well.

As for the actual question personally I havn't as yet used any Pathfinder stuff in any game I DM, however, I would be interested in seeing anything you post !
#3

minoritarian

Aug 20, 2008 12:42:36
Yeah, sorry about the 'terrible' part, I've seen what the thread over on the Realms board has degenerated into so I definitely don't want it to turn into a "Pathfinder 4 teh win 4E sux" or vice versa debate. I've not actually played a 4E game, just had a look at the rulebooks and well, it didn't get me going. Anyway I'll get writing and post something up
#4

Dargurd

Aug 20, 2008 12:45:39
Yeah, sorry about the 'terrible' part, I've seen what the thread over on the Realms board has degenerated into so I definitely don't want it to turn into a "Pathfinder 4 teh win 4E sux" or vice versa debate. I've not actually played a 4E game, just had a look at the rulebooks and well, it didn't get me going. Anyway I'll get writing and post something up

Feel free to Pm me with any ideas if you want and your right lets not let the thread degenerate as others have.
#5

ChrisTheS

Aug 20, 2008 12:56:01
I'm going to be converting my campaign when I get a chance. I won't have to make too many changes, considering that I've already removed XP costs for item crafting and adjusted the Artificer to match. I'll have to ask my player what exactly I did to fix that, though, since I don't have the writeup anymore...

I won't bother adjusting racial stats for the Eberron races, as they don't seem terribly underpowered in comparison. I might add Artificer as a secondary favored class for changelings and warforged, Monk for kalashtar, and Fighter for shifters, but that's about the extent of it.
#6

Cyber-Dave

Aug 20, 2008 13:23:36
You won't find the same anti-4e sentiment here in the Eberron forums. While its true, some Eberron fans don't like 4e, the precentage is much smaller. Perhaps its because Keith (Eberron's author and creator) likes 4e a lot, and actually feels the new rules better suite Eberron's feel. Perhaps its because the Eberron setting is not undergoing nearly as extensive a change as Forgotten Realms has in its transition to 4e. Perhaps its because 4e is a better game than 3.5/3.75 and most of us get that. Who knows... :P

P.S. If I may, if all you have done is glass over the 4e books, and you are actually interested in giving them an honest chance, do yourself a favor and try a little play testing first. The DM book reads great. The players book reads awfully. Its almost written like programing code... there is virtually no fluff in order to flavor anything. However, mechanically, in my opinion it is far superior to 3e in every way. What it lacks in flavor text, the game more than makes up for in game play.
#7

ChrisTheS

Aug 20, 2008 14:01:58
I don't particularly want to play Eberron with 4e, for two reasons:

First, one of my players has made it expressly clear that he will never, under any circumstances, ever play a 4e game. This is problematic because half the group are his relatives and we mainly play at his house, so if we want to play 4e at all, we can't do it on our regular game night.

Second, I actually like the inherent complexities of the 3e ruleset when applied to Eberron. In other settings it often feels clunky, but with Eberron it feels like the inner workings of a clock, which helps get into the mood. Doing certain things with 4e is almost too easy for the noir-atmosphere I'm going for with most of my Eberron stories. That being said, certain elements of the 4e mindset are nice to apply (for instance, reflavoring class abilities to fit concept, and not feeling constrained by rigid boundaries when considering potential actions are things that can be applied to any game).

Now, having read the Pathfinder rules, I don't think I ever want to play a pure 3.5 game ever again, and I think those rules strike a happy medium between the depth and complexity of 3e and the flexibility and ease of 4e. As such, that makes them perfect for Eberron.
#8

Cyber-Dave

Aug 20, 2008 14:05:21
Meh. Personally, I think the 4e rules are a better fit for noir and pulp games. But, thats me.
#9

ChrisTheS

Aug 20, 2008 14:25:39
Pulp, definitely. Noir, not so much. Although the genres are mostly similar, there's a bit more edge on noir that certain elements of 4e make it difficult to replicate. For instance, injury matters a lot more in noir than it does in most pulp, and even though access to healing is about equal between 3e and 4e, with 3e injury feels more significant than 4e. Sure, there are ways of dealing with that with 4e, but most of them decrease the characters' effectiveness, which isn't something I'd want to do with such a game. Since a lot of a good Eberron game involves characters getting into the mindset (and a lot of my players find it easier to adapt their point of view to the system rather than the system to their point of view), it's easier overall (for me at least) to go with the ruleset that evinces the right frame of mind from the get-go.

Speaking as a player, I wouldn't care what system we use - since I find it much easier to create characters to concept with 4e, that would even be preferable. However, the chances of being a player in Eberron with the group I'm in currently are slim, and the chances of being a player in a 4e Eberron game are totally nonexistant. For better or for worse, in the foreseeable future any Eberron game my group plays will be run by me, and will be run using some variation on 3e.
#10

Cyber-Dave

Aug 20, 2008 17:23:39
Well, I don't agree. I feel that 4e does noir better as well. I certainly never felt that injury "felt" more significant in 3e than 4e. Indeed, 4e is the first time you can have a character who has been healed too much, and thus just CANT be healed anymore (out of healing surges). Also, while 4e doesn't do too much to mark the "feeling" of injury, it still does more than 3e did (via the bloodied condition). Like I said, I feel that 4e is better at modeling both pulp and noir elements in games... and thus I agree with Keith. I feel 4e is a better fit for Eberron's mechanics. Just my opinion, but as I stated, it differs from yours.
#11

Arcane_Guyver

Aug 20, 2008 22:52:20
Well, I'd highly recommend altering the Eberron races for Pathfinder.

Changeling: +2 to any one ability
Kalashtar: +2 to Intelligence
Shifter: +2 to whatever their shifter trait would give (so +4 when shifting), get rid of that -2 Charisma
Warforged: Don't change a damn thing. These guys are good enough as-is.
#12

minoritarian

Aug 21, 2008 13:31:17
Not too different from you.

Changeling: +2 to any stat. Favoured Class: Rogue and Enchanter (I can't really think of a second suitable class)

Kalashter: +2 to any mental stat (I'd tie different stats to family lines but doing this makes no real mechanical difference). Favoured Class: Psion and Monk

Shifter: +2 to Shifting Stat, +2 to Survival. Favoured Class: Ranger and Barbarian

Warforged: Tempted to leave as is, maybe give them +2 on Knowledge (war) just to feel like I'm changing something
#13

Arcane_Guyver

Aug 21, 2008 13:37:46
Actually, you could give them the 'Combat Intuition' feat from Complete Adventurer as a bonus feat; nobody ever takes it anyways, and it will help reinforce the whole "warforged is always analyzing surroundings" shtick.
#14

minoritarian

Aug 21, 2008 13:47:18
Ah, left all my books at Uni. I'll check out that feat. Forgot to say that Warforged should have Fighter and Warblade as their favoured class.
#15

minoritarian

Aug 21, 2008 14:16:10
I'm going to be converting my campaign when I get a chance. I won't have to make too many changes, considering that I've already removed XP costs for item crafting and adjusted the Artificer to match. I'll have to ask my player what exactly I did to fix that, though, since I don't have the writeup anymore...

If you could get hold of this write up and post it that would be absolutely wonderful.
#16

ChrisTheS

Aug 21, 2008 14:32:18
I think what I did was divide the craft reserve by 10, and what was left could be spent to gain bonuses on craft checks to create items. Maybe an addendum that reduces the cost of items depending on how many points are spent would be in order as well...
#17

nomadicc

Aug 24, 2008 16:45:56
You could also convert the craft reserve into a "resource reserve" that the artificer can use to offset the gold piece materiel cost. Not sure what the exact conversion would be, since I don't have the book right in front of me. I think that makes it easier on the conversion math.

As for artificer changes, I think overeall the artificer is a well-built and powerful class, especially when played by someone that understands the inherent limitations/advantages. I wouldn't adjust any of the abilities or infusions. However, the class has a "dead level" at 10th - no more infusions/day, no abilities, no feats/ability improvements. Combine that with High Elemental Binder PrC (no CL increase at 1st) and its downright painful. I think the infusions/day might afford a small nudge.
#18

Arcane_Guyver

Aug 24, 2008 17:03:09
You could also convert the craft reserve into a "resource reserve" that the artificer can use to offset the gold piece materiel cost. Not sure what the exact conversion would be, since I don't have the book right in front of me. I think that makes it easier on the conversion math.

Typically, 1 XP = 5 gp (see Book of Exalted Deeds for an official example of this suggestion). Therefore, since 1 craft point = 1 XP for creation purposes, each CP would reduce the cost of item creation by 5 gp.

Alternatively, you could use the Craft Points variant rules (Unearthed Arcana) and use Artificer CP in that fashion, though I'm not sure of the exact balance of that.
#19

hopeless

Aug 25, 2008 12:32:14
Has anybody used the Pathfinder rules in Eberron and if so what adjustments did you make to the Eberron races? Any big changes to the Artificer or do you think it's balanced enough/high powered enough already to match the changes made to the base classes?

I'll make up some changes for the races and post them later if anybody is interested.

And for those who don't know Pathfinder is Paizo's 'new' rules for D&D which I guess you can consider 3.75E, it's almost completely backwards compatible with 3.5E and fixes a lot of the problems people had with 3.5 without being the absolutely massive and terrible 'fix' that 4E is. Oh, and the rule book is completely free to download from Paizo's site.

I have already downloaded it and the Pathfinder Society introduction, but please don't at this point impose upon yourself the idea that what they've done to Faerun is what is going to happen to Eberron, some of us hope the extra year will insure that doesn't happen.

Of course I might not like what they come up with but its nice to have options and that is what I'm hoping they will keep.

I suspect since Eberron is an official setting the only place you'll see a Pathfinder version of any race or class specific to Eberron is strictly unofficial, but there is still 3.5 if you've bought the books of course.

Okay I stand corrected on that last part and I'll definitely look into Combat Intuition!

Take care and all the best!
#20

hopeless

Aug 25, 2008 12:38:06
I don't particularly want to play Eberron with 4e, for two reasons:

First, one of my players has made it expressly clear that he will never, under any circumstances, ever play a 4e game. This is problematic because half the group are his relatives and we mainly play at his house, so if we want to play 4e at all, we can't do it on our regular game night.

Second, I actually like the inherent complexities of the 3e ruleset when applied to Eberron. In other settings it often feels clunky, but with Eberron it feels like the inner workings of a clock, which helps get into the mood. Doing certain things with 4e is almost too easy for the noir-atmosphere I'm going for with most of my Eberron stories. That being said, certain elements of the 4e mindset are nice to apply (for instance, reflavoring class abilities to fit concept, and not feeling constrained by rigid boundaries when considering potential actions are things that can be applied to any game).

Now, having read the Pathfinder rules, I don't think I ever want to play a pure 3.5 game ever again, and I think those rules strike a happy medium between the depth and complexity of 3e and the flexibility and ease of 4e. As such, that makes them perfect for Eberron.

I have a player who similarly hates 3.0 and 3.5 as far as its possible (he has played a game as a druid) but I have run a 4e game and although I personally dislike some of the changes the players did express liking it but the player I mentioned above wasn't involved.

It makes an interesting conundrum, I don't care for 4e, but the other members of the group I'm with do (except one and I suspect he might like it, its got an exalted feel to it and unlike Exalted at least I don't have to worry about the opposition which is an area I don't like but thats only because I like making npcs not monsters mind you) Eberron was the only reason I bought 3.5, 4e blew my interest but it didn't stop me buying the preview books and when i got involved in an online game the 4e phb.

That led to me buying the keep on the shadowfell so lets see what happens shall we?
#21

ChrisTheS

Aug 25, 2008 23:52:53
I'm not anticipating anything substantially different, to be honest... not that it really matters, because I'm probably not going to get the chance to take advantage of it for several years, until I get a more amenable group.

At which point we will probably be playing Wraith Recon or Amethyst instead...
#22

alexander_arvandor

Aug 26, 2008 8:17:25
The main reason i believe that it is changing the way people feel about Faerun, is that... People don't like change. several people don't. Me, i don't like 4E, but i will play it because i enjoy relaxing with my friends. The reason I like eberron, is because it is NEW. It is still new, and not everyone is familiar with it. There isn't alot of explosions, alot of history, and a large amount of unexplored terrain. That is why 4e will never effect eberron. Eberron, is a unique animal. You can use Paizo's stuff all by itself. Reason I like it, is that it makes the party stronger. You don't have to rest as much, due to the at will abilities that you start off with, and gain. Spellcasters used to be a slow down. Reason you see all the go Paizo, is because people are very familiar with 3.5, and it relates to it. hence it's nickname 3.75. I don't like 4E because i am not 100% accustomed to it. It's like taking a guy out of hawaii, and sending him to the desert. You get acclimated. You don't order something and look at it and say i don't like it. We got to atleast eat it, after all... Lasagna, doesn't look good to those who are not familiar with it. My wife is Thai, trust me.... you got to try it, because looks can be decieving.

As far as the artificer is concerned, yes you need to apply something. I have been debating increasing the amount of feats, and coming up with an ability for the climax. Have debated on allowing the creation of an artifact at level 20. Not a major, but a minor artifact of the PC's choice. An epic item, can simulate a minor artifact, however, the difference is it can't be dispelled, and it is alot harder to destroy. The ability to create an artifact is a very powerful thing, in that mythallars, an artifact version of the mythal epic spell family, are in the same power field. Its up to you, I am for the artifact creation. because... If you can go 20 artificer, you rock. if you take the exp away from the artificer's item creation, i will stop artificer at level 15-16. why take the last 4-5 levels when i can take a prestige class or something. The ability to create artifacts as a climax ability, is powerful.

After all, how did the master of blades, create the warforged. It can easily be done with a origin of species seed. For cost, i took the cost of the epic spell, and times it by 50. That is the base cost.

and the 5gp = 1 craft reserve point works out quite well also.
#23

LeviMiles

Aug 26, 2008 9:32:53
As a first time DM I'm still working on adjusting Entombed with the Pharaohs for Eberron.

Just thought I'd share that. When I'm done I may post ym brainstorm and results!! :D
#24

DigitalMage

Aug 26, 2008 9:57:03
I am just about to start playing in a Pathfinder game using the Rise of the Runelords adventure path and the beta rules. However although my group are liking the look of Pathfinder and our FR Gm is looking to incorporate some of the changes, if I ever run Eberron for the group I will stick to 3.5.

My reason being is that I don't feel that Pathfinder is as backward compatible as I would like - nearly half the skills have been merged, dropped or changed, and some feats now do quite different things (for example the Acrobatic feat now gives a bonus to Climb, not Athletics).
#25

ChrisTheS

Aug 26, 2008 12:39:34
It's kind of difficult to make necessary modifications (and the skill system did need an overhaul) and remain 100% backwards compatible. That being said, most NPCs and monsters don't need their skills reworked to still be usable, and most of the players in our Eberron group have commented about not having enough skill points currently to show the full range of their characters. Since Eberron is patently more skill-focused than a lot of other settings yet still has to make do with the wholly inadequate grant of skill points given to most 3e classes, Pathfinder's fix would seem (to me and my group, at least) to fill the gap quite nicely.
#26

Zombieneighbours

Aug 26, 2008 15:50:23
Meh. Personally, I think the 4e rules are a better fit for noir and pulp games. But, thats me.

4e works well for the Pulp elements but you have to be joking that it works for the noir elements. I'd love to 'chuckles' Oldtower, former champion boxer duking it out one on one with one of Malforios thugs in a cramped office in sharn. Hell don't even get me started on how poorly the 4e skills list would stand up to it.

I personally think that, 4e Eberron could be great, but to be honest, i think pathfinder is probably the better option.
#27

ChrisTheS

Aug 26, 2008 16:42:46
Hell don't even get me started on how poorly the 4e skills list would stand up to it.

What's wrong with it? You've got your Acrobatics for dodging exploding crates, your Athletics for chasing down shadowy figures in dark alleys, your Endurance for not being trained in and collapsing in a pile of sweat and drool and snot after only a few streets of pursuit because you're out of shape, your Insight for those times when you've just got to have a bad feeling about something or know someone's crooked just by looking at what kind of shoes they wear, your Perception for seeing a bloody palmprint so high on the wall that it couldn't possibly have gotten there, your Stealth for hiding behind the obviously placed stack of boxes that only a minion would fail to look behind, and your Streetwise for knowing which crooked dry cleaner to shake down for information about the new boss in town. What else do you really need?
#28

Zombieneighbours

Aug 26, 2008 18:05:51
What's wrong with it? You've got your Acrobatics for dodging exploding crates, your Athletics for chasing down shadowy figures in dark alleys, your Endurance for not being trained in and collapsing in a pile of sweat and drool and snot after only a few streets of pursuit because you're out of shape, your Insight for those times when you've just got to have a bad feeling about something or know someone's crooked just by looking at what kind of shoes they wear, your Perception for seeing a bloody palmprint so high on the wall that it couldn't possibly have gotten there, your Stealth for hiding behind the obviously placed stack of boxes that only a minion would fail to look behind, and your Streetwise for knowing which crooked dry cleaner to shake down for information about the new boss in town. What else do you really need?

Well, just for starters, the base system, with its massive limits and lack of Nuance. The very idea that a trained fighter cannot be as diplomatic as the next guy is frankly silly. Sure, even pathfinder hasn't sorted that one out to my taste, but atleast it takes a step in the right direction, 4e takes two in the wrong direction. The lose of skill ranks means reduces ones ability to make choices based on Concept, no longer can you give a character a point in a skill because there hobbies require it, or it would be part of their skill set due to how they grew up. The only option that comes close is to take it as class skill(either as part of their class or a feat.), however, this option uses up a much greater proportion of character creation resources and makes them an 'expert' at the skill, or rather, as good as any one else with equivilant attributes and feat choice. Like i said, no nuance.

Secondly, the reduced list contains a number of noticable absenses; profession, craft and performance come instantly to mind, all of which have applications in Noir settings. After all, a Torch-singer is a fairly iconic noir architypel character, yet without a performance skill, there is no way of assigning crediblity to her ability as a singer.


Then you have inapropreately broad skills. This is easiest to demonstrate with a modern examples, but there are many examples of it in the skill system of 4e. Just because some one is good at track and field athletics, it does not mean they can scuba dive, equally, just because some one can bend it like beckham, that doesn't mean they are going to be a world class rock climber. Want to take it into the realm of science, their is a gulf of knowledge between a biologist and a physist. The consept that One skill can cover socialising, haggling, seduction and negotating complex international treaties, is frankly silly. It to me, and many people i game with, damages our suspencian of disbeleif.

Then you have unclear overlap. Is piloting a ship Nature, Athletics maybe, what about arcana for its magicial controls? This feeds back into the earlier problems with questions like, why cant my pirate captain, also know as a rogue, pilot or navigate his own ship?
#29

ChrisTheS

Aug 26, 2008 19:37:44
Well, just for starters, the base system, with its massive limits and lack of Nuance. The very idea that a trained fighter cannot be as diplomatic as the next guy is frankly silly. Sure, even pathfinder hasn't sorted that one out to my taste, but atleast it takes a step in the right direction, 4e takes two in the wrong direction. The lose of skill ranks means reduces ones ability to make choices based on Concept, no longer can you give a character a point in a skill because there hobbies require it, or it would be part of their skill set due to how they grew up. The only option that comes close is to take it as class skill(either as part of their class or a feat.), however, this option uses up a much greater proportion of character creation resources and makes them an 'expert' at the skill, or rather, as good as any one else with equivilant attributes and feat choice. Like i said, no nuance.

Matters of personal preference aside, how does that impact its ability to represent noir situations? The typical noir character is generally broadly competent in a variety of skills and confidently expert in 1-3. With 4+ skills per class (and maybe the Jack of all Trades feat tossed into the mix for good measure) you've got most of your bases covered.

Secondly, the reduced list contains a number of noticable absenses; profession, craft and performance come instantly to mind, all of which have applications in Noir settings. After all, a Torch-singer is a fairly iconic noir architypel character, yet without a performance skill, there is no way of assigning crediblity to her ability as a singer.

Apart from just saying 'she's a singer.' Traditional noir lounge crooners aren't exactly going to be winning Grammys on a regular basis, so quantifying their skill isn't strictly necessary for the genre - just insert your cliche 'voice like a nightengale being strangled by a crazed concert pianist' byline and call it good. Besides, to be strictly true to genre, all noir heroes should have to have 'Perform (cheesy inner monologue)' as a trained skill - and I'd rather spend the points that most seem to devote to that on something a little more useful.

Then you have inapropreately broad skills. This is easiest to demonstrate with a modern examples, but there are many examples of it in the skill system of 4e. Just because some one is good at track and field athletics, it does not mean they can scuba dive, equally, just because some one can bend it like beckham, that doesn't mean they are going to be a world class rock climber. Want to take it into the realm of science, their is a gulf of knowledge between a biologist and a physist. The consept that One skill can cover socialising, haggling, seduction and negotating complex international treaties, is frankly silly. It to me, and many people i game with, damages our suspencian of disbeleif.

As mentioned above, noir skill use is often very broad. To follow your science example, a noir scientist or doctor is either a very competent generalist or just happens to be the exact kind of specialist that the hero needs to furnish a vital clue.

Then you have unclear overlap. Is piloting a ship Nature, Athletics maybe, what about arcana for its magicial controls? This feeds back into the earlier problems with questions like, why cant my pirate captain, also know as a rogue, pilot or navigate his own ship?

Again, that's an issue of personal preference that doesn't really impact the genre. Like I said earlier, there are reasons for preferring 3e's mechanics for noir stories, but I don't really think the skill system is chief among them.
#30

mystrich

Aug 26, 2008 21:03:29
Well, just for starters, the base system, with its massive limits and lack of Nuance. The very idea that a trained fighter cannot be as diplomatic as the next guy is frankly silly. Sure, even pathfinder hasn't sorted that one out to my taste, but atleast it takes a step in the right direction, 4e takes two in the wrong direction. The lose of skill ranks means reduces ones ability to make choices based on Concept, no longer can you give a character a point in a skill because there hobbies require it, or it would be part of their skill set due to how they grew up. The only option that comes close is to take it as class skill(either as part of their class or a feat.), however, this option uses up a much greater proportion of character creation resources and makes them an 'expert' at the skill, or rather, as good as any one else with equivilant attributes and feat choice. Like i said, no nuance.

As Keith said in a blog post about skill challenges, you now have more feats, and about half of them are expected to be used on Skill Training, Skill Focus, and such. You have more feats, but less options, and much less that actually help in battle so much, having it will turn every fight around. Astral Fire is nice for a Cleric or Warlock who's going to use 90% Radiant or Fire damage abilities, but +1 damage is not a huge deal. You're given the room. Besides, the average fighter is as charismatic as the next guy, as both would have the average charisma of +0-+2. But they obviously won't be able to bluff like the rogue who tells a lie every day of his life, unless they lie often too (skill training (bluff)). And he's not going to be as convincing as the half-elf cleric who spends most of his time trying to convert people to his faith with diplomacy, unless he talks people into things often (skill training (diplomacy)).

Secondly, the reduced list contains a number of noticable absenses; profession, craft and performance come instantly to mind, all of which have applications in Noir settings. After all, a Torch-singer is a fairly iconic noir architypel character, yet without a performance skill, there is no way of assigning crediblity to her ability as a singer.

If you didn't like my above reasoning, well, then this you will or vice versa because it's the opposite argument. This doesn't need a feat or any in game abilities wasted on it. If you want your character to have the voice of an angel, she does. It's her backstory, not her character sheet. If you want them to be able to run a buisness, well, then it's because they were born with a natural knack or lack of a natural knack or were never in an environment that would prepare them to run one.

Then you have unclear overlap. Is piloting a ship Nature, Athletics maybe, what about arcana for its magicial controls? This feeds back into the earlier problems with questions like, why cant my pirate captain, also know as a rogue, pilot or navigate his own ship?

All of them. As skill challenges in the DMG suggest, give the PCs several skills for the situation they're in. But they can also use any skill they have they can justify. Riding a horse to escape chasing goblins could be Athletics for Riding, Nature for keeping the horse calm, Perception to see if you can find a path that's hard for them to get through, Intimidate to keep them from following, or whatever your PCs think they can use. One might suggest Heal for knowing pressure points to speed up the horse, another might try bluff to fake the goblins out about which way he's heading.
#31

minoritarian

Aug 30, 2008 12:36:58
Originally posted by Green Giant over on the FR to Pathfinder conversion thread.

Cleric Domains:

Commerce Domain
Deity: Kol Korran.
Cleric Level Ability
1st Smell Money (Su): As a standard action, you can touch an item to automatically sense its monetary value. Additionally you can sense the monetary value of a subject's gear by making an Appraise check against a 15 DC. You normally must be able to see the subject. You can sense the gold piece value of the contents of an area within 20 feet by making an Appraise check with a DC of 20. If the subject or area is beyond a solid barrier or otherwise hidden, the Appraise DC is +10.
2nd Comprehend Languages (Sp): As the spell 1/day per two caster levels.
4th Zone of Truth (Sp): As the spell 1/day.
8th Tongues (Su): Once per day any willing subject gains the effect of the tongues spell for 1 minute per caster level. These rounds do not need to be consecutive.
12th Glibness (Sp): You can use glibness 3/day.
16th Secret Chest (Sp): You hide a chest on the Ethereal Plane for as long as sixty days and can retrieve it at will, as per the spell secret chest.
20th Polymorph Any Object (Sp): As the spell 1/day.

Deathless Domain
(Note: I have a house rule where rebuking undead in Pathfinder's Channel Energy causes an "awe" condition unless your cleric has more than twice the HD of the undead he's rebuking; only then are undead normally "awed" commanded instead. Also, I never liked the spirit steed bonus spell on the Deathless list. It seems this was done before it was decided that the Valenar's "Keepers of the Past" religion was different from the Aerenal's. Its a less straight up conversion than the one above, but here it is...)
Deity: The Undying Court.
Cleric Level Ability
1st Deathless Warder (Su): Deathless creatures are affected by Channel Energy in the opposite manner that undead are, i.e. if you turn undead you rebuke deathless, and if you rebuke undead you turn deathless. Once per day, you can perform a "greater rebuking" against deathless creatures in place of one of your channel energy attempts. The greater rebuking is like a normal rebuking except that the deathless creatures that would be awed are commanded instead.
2nd Detect Undead (Sp): As the spell 1/day per 2 caster levels you possess.
4th Consecrate (Sp): As the spell 1/day.
8th Call Deathless (Su): You can summon undying wizards and soldiers to aid you. With this ability you can summon a number of undying whose total Hit Dice do not exceed 1/2 your caster level. These deathless remain for a number of rounds equal to your caster level or until they are destroyed. Summoned undying expect to serve the cause of good, and will angrily vanish if they have reason to believe they have been disturbed for petty or selfish reasons. You cannot use this ability more than once in a 24 hour period.
12th Hallow (Sp): As the spell, 1/day.
16th Create Deathless (Sp): As the spell, once per day.
20th Create Greater Deathless (Sp): As the spell, once a day.

Decay Domain
Deity: The Keeper.
Cleric Level Ability
1st Touch of Putrescence (Su): Your touch causes decomposition in organic matter and weakens inorganic matter. You must succeed on a melee touch attack to affect a creature. If you touch a living creature including constructs with the living subtype, you deal 1d4 points of Constitution damage. If you touch an undead creature, an object, or a construct without the living construct subtype, you deal 2d6 points of damage +1 point per cleric level.
2nd Doom (Sp): As the spell 1/day per 2 caster levels you possess.
4th Ray of Enfeeblement (Sp): As the spell 1/day.
8th Swarm Aura (Su): Once per day, you may summon a swarm of flies to surround you. Any living creature (other than the caster) that attacks you with a melee weapon must succeed on a Fortitude save or be nauseated for 1 round. A nauseated creature must make another Fort save to avoid contracting Filth Fever. The swarm lasts 1 round per caster level but it can be dispersed - it possesses AC 18, 5 hp per caster level, and is only vulnerable to the same things that damage swarms (high winds, area effect spells and energy damage, brandished torches).
12th Enervation (Sp): As the spell 3/day.
16th Horrid Wilting (Sp): As the spell 1/day.
20th Energy Drain (Sp): As the spell 1/day.

Exorcism Domain
Deity: Church of the Silver Flame.
Cleric Level Ability
1st Exorcise (Su): You can force possessing spirits out of the bodies they inhabit. You channel energy, and if your turning damage is at least equal to half the possessing entity's hit points, you force it out of the body. If the spirit belongs to a spellcaster using magic jar, the spirit returns to the receptacle. If it is a ghost or a possessing fiend, it becomes ethereal and free-floating again. In any case, the spirit cannot attempt to possess the same victim again for 24 hours.
2nd Protection from Evil (Sp): As the spell 1/day per 2 caster levels you possess.
4th Magic Circle against Evil (Sp): As the spell 1/day.
8th Spectral Flenser (Su): You deal damage normally to incorporeal creatures, and your attacks likewise are treated as force effects that reach into the ethereal plane. You can activate this ability a number of rounds per day equal to your caster level, though they need not be consecutive.
12th Dismissal (Sp): As the spell 1/day.
16th Holy Word (Sp): As the spell 1/day.
20th Holy Aura (Sp): As the spell 1/day except with range of 50 ft around caster.

Feast Domain
Deity: Olladra.
Cleric Level Ability
1st Iron Stomach(Su): You have immunity to ingested poisons and to diseases spread by ingestion.
2nd Goodberry (Sp): As the spell 1/day per 2 caster levels you possess.
4th Create Food and Water (Sp): As the spell 1/day.
8th Aura of Detoxification (Su): You detoxify any sort of venom within 30 feet of you for a number of rounds per day equal to your caster level. These rounds need not be consecutive. Any poisons in the air, in food, or on weapons or traps within the radius of the aura, are neutralized. The aura does not reverse instantaneous effects, but any secondary effects to come are nullified. The venom of any creatures within the aura loses its potency while they remain within the aura and for 1d4 rounds after.
12th Secure Shelter (Sp): As the spell 1/day.
16th Heroes’ Feast: As the spell 1/day.
20th Feast of Champions: As the spell 1/day.

Life Domain
Deity: Arawai.
Cleric Level Ability
1st Touch of Life (Su): You can grant fast healing 1 (+1 per 1/2 caster level rounded down) to a creature you touch. The effects last 3 rounds. No one creature may benefit from this ability more than once every 24 hours.
2nd Hide From Undead (Sp): As the spell 1/day per 2 caster levels you possess.
4th Restoration, Lesser (Sp): As the spell 1/day.
8th Field of Life: You can emit a 30-ft. ward against death for a number of rounds per day equal to your caster level. These rounds do not need to be consecutive. Living creatures in this area are immune to death effects, energy drain, and effects that cause negative levels. This ward does not remove negative levels that a creature has already gained, but the negative levels have no effect while the creature is inside the warded area.
12th Animate Objects: As the spell 1/day.
16th Regenerate: As the spell 1/day.
20th Heal, Mass: As the spell 1/day.

Meditation Domain
(Note: I've kept Concentration in my games - sub Spellcraft for a straighter conversion to Pathfinder)
Deity: The Path of Light.
Cleric Level Ability
1st Mystic Insight (Su): By meditating for one full round and succeeding a Concentration check (provoking attacks of opportunity) you can cast one spell as though it had the Empower Spell feat applied to it (all variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by one-half). You cast the spell at its normal level. The Concentration DC is 15 + the spell level of the spell you are trying to Empower.
2nd Comprehend Languages (Sp): As the spell 1/day per 2 caster levels you possess.
4th Owl’s Wisdom (Sp): As the spell 1/day.
8th Ubiquitous Awareness (Su): You have a 360-degree sphere of sight, allowing you a perfect view of creatures that might otherwise flank you. Thus, flanking opponents gain no bonus on their attack rolls, and rogues are denied their sneak attack ability while flanking. Your Spot and Search checks gain a +4 enhancement bonus. Concurrently, you take a -4 penalty on saves against all gaze attacks during the power’s duration. This ability lasts for a number of rounds per day equal to your caster level. These rounds do not need to be consecutive.
12th Tongues (Sp): As the spell 3/day.
16th Mind Blank (Sp): As the spell 1/day.
20th Astral Projection: As the spell 1/day.

Necromancer Domain
Deity: The Blood of Vol.
Cleric Level Ability
1st Necrobolt (Su): You can make a ranged touch attack that does 1d4 points of cold damage. When struck, your foe must succeed a Fort save or be stunned for one round. The range is 30 feet.
2nd Ray of Enfeeblement (Sp): As the spell 1/day per 2 caster levels you possess.
4th Command Undead (Sp): As the spell 1/day.
8th Vampiric Shroud (Su): You emit a parasitic aura for a number of rounds per day equal to your caster level. These rounds need not be consecutive. Any foe who attacks you with a melee weapon takes 1d6 points of negative energy damage +1 per two caster levels you possess. Additionally, you receive an equal amount of hit points up to your normal maximum.
12th Enervation (Sp): As the spell 3/day.
16th Control Undead (Sp): As the spell 1/day.
20th Energy Drain (Sp): As the spell 1/day.

Passion Domain
Deity: The Fury.
Cleric Level Ability
1st Reckless Abandon (Su): For a total time per day of 1 round per cleric level, as a free action you can act as if under the effect of the rage spell.
2nd Cause Fear (Sp): As the spell 1/day per 2 caster levels you possess.
4th Hideous Laughter (Sp): As the spell 1/day.
8th Aura of Passion (Su): You can emit a 30-ft. aura of passion for a number of rounds per day equal to your caster level. These rounds do not need to be consecutive. Allies within the aura receive a +2 bonus to Will saves and 1d8 temporary hit points, but receive a -1 AC. Leaving the radius of the aura and returning does not bestow additional temporary hit points.
12th Crushing Despair (Sp): As the spell 3/day.
16th Song of Discord (Sp): As the spell 1/day.
20th Irresistible Dance: As the spell 1/day. 30 foot ranged touch attack.

Shadow Domain
Deity: The Shadow. Same as Pathfinder's Darkness domain, but sub shades for imprisonment at level 20