But what about avengers and invokers? There's no war with the primordials and gods don't talk directly to mortals.
What about the new barbarian? Can we use the new primal flavor to work something new and interesting about their place in the world?
Are wardens and shamans in the same place as druids? Or can we give them something more creative?
But most importantly... where would you place Goliaths and Devas?
Post your ideas about this things. And don't forget this is eberron, so be creative.
Since we have rakshasas in Eberron, Devas flow from that pretty easily since they're kinda/sorta related.
The invoker is a little tougher, the only place I can see it is directly channeling the silver flame. Raw power, like the sorcerer, unlike the cleric or wizard.
Devas might work well for the inspired, if not, I'll probably throw them in the planes.
I will probably use the Goliaths to replace the mongrel ogres, since I think we are unlikely to see them again soon.
All the primal classes fit in the Reaches and with the Gatekeepers. The barbarian still works for the Talenta tribes.
Sorcerer might be interesting for an Aberrant Heir.
The avenger and the invoker likewise I don't see any particular problems with, sure they think the gods have spoken to them, but then again some people think God makes his will manifest in the image on a piece of toast. I refer you to the Medani Prophet prestige class from Dragonmarked, clerics of Aureon who know for a fact that they get visions directly from that Sovereign, even if the class implies (and everyone who isn't a true believer assumes) probably rightly so that its just an aplied effect of their dragonmark.
The Blood of Vol has it even easier, these are people who have unlocked the divinity within themselves and are using it to... wage their war against mortality or you know doing the lich queen's will.... milage may vary on that.
For the Aerenal elves, Invokers are chosen by the undying court to be a living representative of their will, and avengers their wrath.
The Valenar elves are 'visited' upon by their dead heroic ancestors, to channel their might.
Rather than going the psionic route the kalashtar and Adarian humans avengers and invokers have found some sort of enlightenment along the Path of Light, one that uses the light to strike back hard against the encroaching darkness. In fact the idea of a kalashtar avenger fits their shadow war quite well.
As for the races... Deva interest me the most. I really like their connection with rakshasas, the thing I keep coming back to in regards to Eberron is which came first in this setting the rakshasa or the deva? On the one hand you could have the old idea that rakshasa were fiends spat out by Khyber ruled over by the Rajahs (though they've really seemed to move away from the title 'Rakshasa Rajah' to Demon Overlords in the source books as Eberron has aged I've noticed). If you keep this old paradigm and the deva still have this connection were they rakshasa that were somehow purified? Redeemed?
I have no idea what James and Keith have come up with but in my head so far I think it would be more fun if, as with many other things in Eberron... no one knew, not the deva, not the rakshasa. The Overlords know, but really you going to believe a Demon Overlord's word?
There are theories, some legends claim they are angels made flesh, most of whom were lured to the will of the Overlord's evil ways and were reborn as rakshasa, some remained pure though throughout the ages their numbers have dwindled as more and more fall to the shadow. It is a constant struggle, and some feel that its inevitable, even though some have remained pure for ten thousand lifetimes eventually sooner or later one of their lives will lead them down a dark path and their with their soul tainted they will be reborn the next time as a rakshasa and will forever be lost to shadow. Sooner or later there will be no deva left.
Others believe that the rakshasa were born of Khyber, but when the couatls sacrificed themselves to imprison the overlords some of the rakshasa who witnessed it were so moved by this selfless act that they became something else entirely. Still there runs an ever present risk that they will slide down that slippery slope, and once they do their essence will belong to Khyber again.
Still others believe that neither the deva nor the rakshasa were the race's original form. Some other thing entirely existed in the ages past, but as the Age of Demons fell upon the world this immortal race born of Eberron was split siding either with the couatl or the overlords, and the pendulum swings both ways in regards to their reincarnations... but its much easier for a deva to fall than a rakshasa to rise.
Still the deva couldn't tell you where they came from, the further back in time the harder it is to remember, they might get a flash or two, but the Age of Demons was so long ago... heck its hard to remember anything specific about their lives during Karn the Conqueror's time.
What interests me most about the deva though is the potential for a character or player to suddenly come to the realization that their most recent past life had them fight and die on a different side of the last war. An Aundairian Deva realizing that in another place, another time they marched under Karrnath's banner.
As for the goliath? Less thought put into them, stick them in practically any mountainous region on Khorvaire, their communities always did seem to be small dispite their size. Builders of great cities they ain't. Though I wouldn't be surprised to see House D recruiting them heavily for mercenary work, all a recruiter would have to do is appeal to their competitive side.
Coincidentally, Dragons in Eberron are often associated with the Gods. Each of the members of the Sovereign Host has a Draconic representative. Likewise, Khyber is associated with Demons, Chaos, and Dragonshards stored there are the ones used for Elemental binding.
It's easier to consider the myth and comology of the 4E core as alternate interpretations of beliefs and legends in Eberron.
Avengers immediately conjure images of the zealous Silver Flame Undead/Lycanthrope slayer, Undying Court undead hunter, or Blood of Vol assassin.
And as far as "gods" not speaking directlky to the their followers, the cults of the Dragon Below and the Lords of Dust are generally centered around trapped Daelkyr and Rajahs- beings of defific power who certainly can speak to and influence their followers. The Undying Court can interact with followers as well.
The Silver Flame faith got its start thanks to the flame almost literally Flame calling out to and selecting people to act as vessels for its power. Jaela, the current Keeper of the Flame, is perhaps the best case for an Invoker we've seen in D&D.
Devas work easily enough as beings especially strong with the energies of the Silver Flame, something spawned of the war between the Dragons and Demons, or your good aligned outsiders mingling on the material plane. The Forge of War book mentions celestial beings appearing in the world and rallied/led Thrane troops on campaigns during the last war.
As for Goliaths... well we can always just stuff them in Droaam as yet another monster race, or in Xen'drik and give them some distant relationship with Giants.
Wardens, I think, can replace Rangers in the sense that 3E Eberron Rangers had a relationship with Druids that was sort of like the one between Paladin and Druid. Rangers could even align themselves with Druidic sects, gaining some of their powers. I hope Wardens get something like this in 4E, freeing up the Ranger to pursue less nature-y options.
The only thing I see changing much about Barbarians is that we're probably going to see more Battlerager Fighters to represent primitive warriors. The 4E Barbarian seems like a great fit for the Druidic traditions of the Shadow Marches Orcs and as warriors for the Seren Barbarians. Just reflavor the powers to be more Draconic. There's already a Black Dragon rage... which is interesting since it was a Black Dragon that brough Druidism to Khorvaire.
I will probably use the Goliaths to replace the mongrel ogres, since I think we are unlikely to see them again soon.
What? Mongrel Ogres? Where?
-Joni
Thus you can have the Nomadic element, racial dislike for giants and some association with Dwarves.
And of course four divergent cultures in Xen'drik, Lamania and north-eastern and south-western Khorvaire.
The Eneko from Secrets of Sarlona?
-Joni
yep - was too lazy to find the book and find that name.
Not a perfect fit, but I think it's good enough. Unless they do bring back the Eneko.
But what about avengers and invokers? There's no war with the primordials and gods don't talk directly to mortals.
Gods don't physically manifest in the world. That doesn't mean that they don't speak to their followers. The question is what that voice really is. Perhaps it actually is the voice of a deity. Perhaps it's a divine servant of that deity, IE Tira Miron, now said to exist as the Voice of the Silver Flame. Perhaps it's your own subconscious, which you have interpreted as the voice of a god. Perhaps it's the collective unconscious of Eberron, which uses these iconic concepts as a way to interact with mortals. Again, it's not that the gods DON'T exist in Eberron, it's that we don't KNOW if they exist. It is possible to debate their existence. But most divine characters are likely to feel that they are in some way touched or inspired by their deity.
Likewise, some religions do serve confirmed forces. The Undying Court is a clear source of sentient divine power, and with +Wis/+Dex, the Deathguard of Aerenal make excellent avengers (again coming to the fact that when you bring the Undying Court into the picture, Aerenal's accomplishments in the divine sphere are far more significant than their arcane innovations). The BoV draws on the divine force within the worshipper; we ALL have the potential to be gods. The Dragon Below draws on sentient forces. The Silver Flame is an inhuman entity, but a force that has offered guidance in the past and which is said to speak through its Voice, its Keeper, or occasionally, the couatl. The Sovereigns are more present in the world, but again, followers BELIEVE they are guided by the Sovereigns... and I can certainly see an avenger serving the Keeper, wielding a Keeper's Fang weapon and hunting down those who have cheated death.
Needless to say, the ECG will present our answers to most of the other questions, but NDA aside, I don't want to interfere with your coming up with creative answers of your own, so I'll leave you to it.
Avengers of the Silver Flame seem to me very nice, down with those werewolfs (and shifters) :P
The problem is I want to run a game based off of supernatural investigators first, that is after I am done my Epic Saga of Tiamat. Arggh!
yep - was too lazy to find the book and find that name.
Not a perfect fit, but I think it's good enough. Unless they do bring back the Eneko.
There's an (unofficial) 4e conversion for the eneko here. Not exactly continued support for it, but enough to work with for now.
Avengers are trained in hidden sects (whether hidden physically or simply through being secret within a city) and hone their abilities and gain training to be the god's strongest soldier in the god's army.
Invokers read ancient texts to gain knowledge of their god and worship the gods in archaic manners (and as such often worship long-forgotten gods).
Both of those fit in Eberron IMO. Now how horribly wrong am I in what they are? :P
Also I believe primordials either are (or can be) ancient giants or (more likely IMO) powerful Rakshasa Lords (which are in no way related to Rakshasa).
Avengers are lightly armored (they start with cloth only, and there is incentive not to go heavy armor, but I think most would do well to pick up leather and hide prof) big weapon (mostly X[W] based attacks so the bigger the weapon the better and they start with military weapons) carriers who have been trained in 'secret' monestaries for the express purpose of being the embodiment of a god's wrath. They serve their god by killing. A paladin may smite but they are still primarily concerned with protecting innocents. To an avenger, innocents are safe when the enemies of the church are all dead very very dead. I believe the main character of Assassin's Creed would be the iconic Avenger.
Invokers believe they have a personal connection to a diety. While paladins, clerics, and (to a much lesser extent) avengers may be able to channel the same god's power through holy symbols and faith... an invoker doesn't need to channel their god's power they have been given their god's power, they are living extentions of their god's will and they make it manifest, they have no use for holy symbols.
Uh slightly wrong.
Avengers are lightly armored (they start with cloth only, and there is incentive not to go heavy armor, but I think most would do well to pick up leather and hide prof) big weapon (mostly X[W] based attacks so the bigger the weapon the better and they start with military weapons) carriers who have been trained in 'secret' monestaries for the express purpose of being the embodiment of a god's wrath. They serve their god by killing. A paladin may smite but they are still primarily concerned with protecting innocents. To an avenger, innocents are safe when the enemies of the church are all dead very very dead. I believe the main character of Assassin's Creed would be the iconic Avenger.
At least I got Avengers mostly correct. I think a "secret monastery" can easily be interpreted as "a secret group" so they might be physically in a remote area which keeps them secret. Or they might be a secret society inside a city which train young children to become Avengers.
The Silent Hand, from The Orb of Xor'iat and mentioned in passing in a couple other novels was a secret monastic order of Dol Arrah serving Aundair in the Last War. I wouldn't call them avengers, or at least not the main character from OoX he was a monk with some arcane abilities, but they share a very similar flavor.
I wouldn't consider the 'secret monastery' always needed (depending on the religion and region of origin) but the lifetime of training and indoctrination turning the character into a weapon of a god probably would be something to keep.
We know from the PH2 that Goliaths are motivated principally by their need to compete and their love of the friendly rivalries this creates. Well, let's make this their niche in Eberron.
What if the Goliaths consider it their calling to wander the world of Eberron in close tribes? Throughout the year, most members of the race simply watch the humanoids of the world, only coming into conflict with a group of people when they are not allowed to observe peacefully.
Then, annually, as the year draws to a close, the Goliaths visit several areas of Eberron and offer a challenge and a warning to the greatest competitors of the world:
Come to the Stadium and compete, or watch your people suffer the curse of this world. Win, and bring them its blessing.
Since the Goliaths operate under boarders that have existed since the dawn of creation, many times durring the Last War, members of opposing nations were forced to compete side by side in the sacred stadium of the Goliath lords or see their nation meet with bad fortune the following year.
Anyways, the temptation of a slight advantage over the other nations is far too great.
All regions of the world are represented as well as the greatest members of the Goliath tribes (who win handily, as often as not). The location of the Stadium is a secret place on Eberron's surface that only the Goliath Shaman who issues the invitation can transport the competitor to.
Well, that's my idea. I just want to embrace the flavor of the Goliath race, but keep the world, mostly, the same. I think, however, it would be an insult to a race of Eberron for them to be entirely unimportant, so their ties to the Primal powers of the world inspires them to force the world into competition once a year.
I hope you like it!
Yours,
Lord Dreadman
Yours,
Lord Dreadman
I want to point out that we have the oppurtunity to make all the races interesting in Eberron.
I personally will do my best to make all the races interesting anyway. Whether they be Kuo-Toa, Dark Ones, Vampires, Minotaurs, Azers or Lizardfolk.
I personally like fantasy where you can enter a city and see dozens of races living side by side (what some call the "Star Wars" approach). Although the trick is to avoid making them mundane, but instead make them interesting and exotic.
For example I've been thinking about the place of Githzerai in Eberron. I don't want to rewrite Eberron history (I'm happy to add to it, but I want to avoid rewrites), and so I'm thinking the Githzerai will be somewhat known, as in you've probably a story involving a Githzerai and if you live in a city you know they exist (although someone in a out of the way country might think they're just a child's story figure). And if a githzerai does come into a city it immediately creates a stir and almost everyone in the city will have heard of it within a day. The githzerai would only come for an important reason and so many are speculating as to why it has come, while the powerful and wealthy will immediately try to use the githzerai's appearance to further their own plots (which in itself would discourage githzerai from going to cities often which makes them appear even more mysterious and it creates a feedback loop).
That has the advantage of immediately being interesting for the players if they happen to see the githzerai walking somewhere, and it easily creates plots and opportunities for players to join the plot.
Unfortunately I can't comment specifically on anything from the PHB2 because I haven't read it
I haven't read all of it yet, though, there is something that I should clarify:
OBVIOUSLY you can place everything in the PHB2 in Eberron. This threat is not for saying "You can have invokers in the silver flame". It's for ideas like the Rakshasa-Deva relationship (gold!)
I gotta keep reading. ^^
Yes, I know that already exists, but the idea is that, just like Eberron made halfling barbarians, orc druids and elf necromancers a very 'typical' thing, maybe we could get the Goliath's society to spin around infernal power.
They might even be the creators of the Tieflings!
We could go with the many-cultures aproach and decide that in Khorvaire the are a race of beings that got affected just like the giants by the wake of the world that the dragons caused on Xendrik, which somehow seems to make it imposible for the race to ever come out of barbarism as a society.
However, that didn't stopped the goliaths that traveled to Khorvaire from joining the Hobgoblins in the Dhakaan empire. And when the goblinoids tried to kill them (at some point of the 16000 years of history the empire has) they recurred to the dark power of Khyber!
Well, that's my idea. I just want to embrace the flavor of the Goliath race, but keep the world, mostly, the same. I think, however, it would be an insult to a race of Eberron for them to be entirely unimportant, so their ties to the Primal powers of the world inspires them to force the world into competition once a year.
I hope you like it!
Yours,
Lord Dreadman
Didn't want to quote the whole thing Dreadman but unless something in the Eberron books really leaps out at me, I'm totally ganking this idea, it's fantastic.
I want to point out that we have the oppurtunity to make all the races interesting in Eberron. A vast majority of the races have excellent backstories built in either to Eberron of the past or their entries in the PH2. One that I struggled with was the Goliath, having never noticed the thrust of the race before this week. Now, however, I think we have an chance to make them truly interesting and important in Eberron.
[...]
I hope you like it!
Yours,
Lord Dreadman
Excuse me but... how do you imagine a Goliath PC with this background for the race? That's the main concern I have about this idea.
Now, imagine the kind of angel that worships the Traveller. Hilarity will ensue-I don't know on whose expense though.
Now I want to know what happens. I demand regular updates!
Devas: I love the Deva Rakshasa connection in the PHB2. With the use of rakshasas in Eberron's backstory I think Devas fit pretty nicely very easily. I especially like the question posed earlier of What came first the Deva or the rakshasa? This could be an excellent conundrum for a Deva character to deal with. Are Devas originally from Syrania? Were there angels from Daanvi or Irian that decided to become Devas?
Goliaths: There are a ton of places for Goliaths to originate from: The Starpeaks in Aundair, The Graywall Mountains, the Howling Peaks between Breland and Darguun, The Seawall mountains in Draguun, The Shadowcrags or Icehorn Mountains that seperate the Demon Wastes from the rest of Khorvaire. The Byeshk Mountains are in Droaam. Iin Karrnath are the Ashen Spires and the Icetop Mountains. The Hoarfrost Mountains in the Lhazaar Principalities, The Mror Holds have the Ironroot Mountains, and The Endworld Mountains lie on the edge of Q'barra and the Talenta Plains. All of those are in Khorvaire proper, the list doesn't include anything in Xen'drik, Sarlona, or Argonnessen. What is the difference between a Goliath tribe in the Endworld Mountains compared to one in the Graywalls? Do Goliath tribes recognize national borders established by the Thronehold Accords, or do they only recognize the natural boundaries formed by the mountians? How did the Last War affect the Goliaths, and how did the Goliaths affect the Last War?
Avengers: Everyone can easily picture an Avenger devoted to the Silver Flame, but what about one devoted to the Blood of Vol? A zealot so confidant in the divinity within their own blood that they can perform miraculous feats. What are the differences between Avengers devoted to Dol Arrah and Dol Dorn? Does Balinor have Avengers? Do they pursue their targets like predators stalking prey, or do they isolate their targets and cull them from the herd?
Invokers: How do Invokers fit in the world? Do they believe in the idea that the deities are ascended dragons and therefore follow more draconic aspects of the gods? A Silver Flame Invoker might not follow the edicts of the Keeper of the Flame, they may hear the voice of Tira Miron, The Rainbow Serpent, or even unwittingly the demon within the Flame. An Ivoker of the Blood of Vol may believe that as the children of their parents the power of previous generations is passed down through bloodlines, they would be as strong as the ancient bloodlines that they are a part of.
Shaman: What would a Shaman be like in the Shadow Marches compared to a Shaman in the Lhazaar Principalities? Are there Shamans amongst the Marguul Tribes in the highlands of Darguun? How do Shamans of the more unexplored areas of Khorvaire view Shamans from the Thronehold Nations? Are there Shamans working with House Vadalis or House Lyrander?
Wardens: Do Wardens amongst the Valenar channel the spirits of their ancestors instead of primal spirits? Does the Great Druid Oalian guide Wardens along the path to becoming Verdant Lords? Are there no Wardens living in the Cogs of Sharn, calling on the primal spirits within the city to protect the citizens of the lower wards? Perhaps there are Wardens in the Graywalls, defending against Khyber spawned abominations.
These are just some thoughts that struck me that I thought could be cool starting points for characters or ways a DM could potentially use some of the new races and classes from PHB2.
Now if only I can find a group that is willing to run an Eberron 4e game where I can play a BoV Invoker.
Instigating change could be allot of work: It could start with waking up early and re-arranging the tables in the tavern before the rest of the party awaken. then given a king's ransom to some poor goblin beggar on the street of Sharn (The ransom you got for kidnapping king Boranel the other day when you helped the Swords of Liberty advance democracy and war). all the way to stooping anyone that stands in the way of change - freeing the people of Riedra from the control of the Inspired?
Selected at-will powers: Acid (leaked) Orb, Burning (mouth) Spray, Chaos (loose) Bolt...
Edit: a cool thought just came to me...
So we've had a Dragon article on Gladiators that gave us feats that altered at-will powers for martial classes, and a Dragon Article on Assassins that did the same. There was a Dragon Article that altered Arcane class at wills too, but I can't recall which one.
What if we got a set of feats for Eberron that were tied to the various druid sects and altered at-wills for all of the primal classes? That would be cool, either in the EPG or in a Dragon article.
I love the idea of playing a BoV Avenger, scythe in hand and justice in your eyes. For all the wrongs that the Silver Flame has committed against the Blood, now you shall pay!
Just as a minor aside, I personally see the BoV avenger as having more of a mad-on for the SH than the SF. The Church of the Silver Flame despises the Blood of Vol because of its support of the undead, which sets off the SF's "supernatural evil" alarm. And as a result the SF has engaged in acts of aggression against the BoV - acts which certainly can call for vengeance. But from a purely religious standpoint, the SF is irrelevant to the BoV. It's the Sovereigns who are the enemies of all mortals - the jealous gods who cursed us with death, disease, and suffering so that we could never attain the true potential of the Divinity Within and become their equals. It's the Sovereigns (and Six) who must somehow be overthrown if we are ever to be free of death... and any who choose to serve these gods are helping them oppress humanity.
So the Church of the Silver Flame is a more active THREAT to the Blood of Vol, simply because it's more organized, disciplined, and militaristic than the followers of the Sovereign Host (though you've certainly got orders of Dol Arrah who were fighting the BoV long before Tira Miron was born). Avengers and paladins of the Blood of Vol will need to fight them to defend their own if nothing else. But looking to the long term goals of the religion, the Silver Flame is an irrelevant curiosity whose followers fear what they don't understand... while the Sovereigns are the enemies of all that lives, and the force that truly seeks to surpress the Divinity Within.
Just as a minor aside, I personally see the BoV avenger as having more of a mad-on for the SH than the SF. The Church of the Silver Flame despises the Blood of Vol because of its support of the undead, which sets off the SF's "supernatural evil" alarm. And as a result the SF has engaged in acts of aggression against the BoV - acts which certainly can call for vengeance. But from a purely religious standpoint, the SF is irrelevant to the BoV. It's the Sovereigns who are the enemies of all mortals - the jealous gods who cursed us with death, disease, and suffering so that we could never attain the true potential of the Divinity Within and become their equals. It's the Sovereigns (and Six) who must somehow be overthrown if we are ever to be free of death... and any who choose to serve these gods are helping them oppress humanity.
So the Church of the Silver Flame is a more active THREAT to the Blood of Vol, simply because it's more organized, disciplined, and militaristic than the followers of the Sovereign Host (though you've certainly got orders of Dol Arrah who were fighting the BoV long before Tira Miron was born). Avengers and paladins of the Blood of Vol will need to fight them to defend their own if nothing else. But looking to the long term goals of the religion, the Silver Flame is an irrelevant curiosity whose followers fear what they don't understand... while the Sovereigns are the enemies of all that lives, and the force that truly seeks to surpress the Divinity Within.
Exceptionally written as always. I was wondering what happens if the BoV avenger doesn't believe in the existence of the Host and the Six. regarding them as nothing more than myths and legends. They're not the world's plague, they're simply fiction. Does the answer remain the same?
I liked Ellorin's Traveller avenger, it opens up allot of interesting role playing ideas for a character.
Instigating change could be allot of work: It could start with waking up early and re-arranging the tables in the tavern before the rest of the party awaken. then given a king's ransom to some poor goblin beggar on the street of Sharn (The ransom you got for kidnapping king Boranel the other day when you helped the Swords of Liberty advance democracy and war). all the way to stooping anyone that stands in the way of change - freeing the people of Riedra from the control of the Inspired?
Thanks! I'll pass it along :D . So far not even we know what he's planning.
Are there no Wardens living in the Cogs of Sharn, calling on the primal spirits within the city to protect the citizens of the lower wards?
My character is one of them. I don't live there though-House Tharashk has some standards...
Exceptionally written as always. I was wondering what happens if the BoV avenger doesn't believe in the existence of the Host and the Six. regarding them as nothing more than myths and legends. They're not the world's plague, they're simply fiction. Does the answer remain the same?
I think a BoV avenger that didn't believe in the Host and the Six would have less reason to hate the average worshiper of the Sovereigns; after all, if the deities don't exist, it's not like an average faithful is doing anything to further their evil plans. More likely, the avenger would feel scorn and pity for those who would make up stories and look to someone else to save them, rather than rise up and save themselves with the real, true power in their own blood.
Those who actively promote the faith of the Sovereigns, though, are still likely targets for the avenger's wrath - after all, they're going around corrupting the people and making them believe themselves to be less than they could be.
Exceptionally written as always. I was wondering what happens if the BoV avenger doesn't believe in the existence of the Host and the Six. regarding them as nothing more than myths and legends. They're not the world's plague, they're simply fiction. Does the answer remain the same?
No. If you take out the metaphysical reason to oppose the Host, than opposing the Silver Flame becomes a simple matter of defending your brethren from a force that wishes to exterminate them (or avenging past acts of aggression). Again, on a purely mundane level, the SF is a far greater threat to the BoV than the SH (setting aside the actions of Dol Arrah's devoted warriors... but like the Aereni Deathguard, they are fewer in number than the SF Templars). It's simply that the SF has nothing to do with death itself. It is a MUNDANE threat... while the central thrust of the BoV is a more metaphysical war, searching for a way to overcome the curse of mortality.
For me, the central theme of the BoV is "What just god would allow suffering and death" - with the conclusion that none would. That we all have the potential power of a god within our blood - and that death is a curse inflicted by the jealous gods who do not want us to rise to their level. Hence the concept that the undead are martyrs, not blessed. By grasping this flawed form of immortality, they can help their fellows in the fight, and help guide them on the path to the Divinity Within. But in becoming undead, in losing the warmth of their blood, they surrender that spark of divinity. The typical peasant worshipper doesn't want to be a vampire; he wants divinity, and vampirism is a pale shadow of that. So again, the vampire is a martyr who has made a terrible sacrifice in order to aid others.
Of course, there are many followers of the BoV who don't believe in this lofty goal. Quite a few of the influential priests view the faith as a means to an end, especially within the Order of the Emerald Claw. They may seek the to harness the power of the Divinity within, but they care only for their OWN power. They do not believe that death is something that can be destroyed... and as such, undeath is a desirable goal for the power it can provide and the personal immortality. This is actually something I keep pointing out when people focus on the SF as the seat of religious corruption. The fact of the matter is that the BoV has at least as many corrupt priests, if not more... and unlike the SF, there's no Keeper struggling to clean house. On the contrary, Erandis herself is abusing the faith of her followers to accomplish her own selfish goals. The BoV paladin in my campaign is actually a devoted follower of the faith who's being personally guided by Erandis (through mystical visions)... but the PLAYER and I know that at some point he's going to realize that she's using him and the faith, and that some day he will have to choose between his loyalty to his mentor and the principles of his faith.
As a side note, the Deathguard is another place for avengers, invokers, and the like; as an elite divine strike force dedicated to battling undead and other dark forces, it would make an interesting choice for an all-divine party. With the Wis/Dex bonuses of elves, you might be able to find some interesting Rogue multiclassing options for these covert agents of the Undying Court.
Those who actively promote the faith of the Sovereigns, though, are still likely targets for the avenger's wrath - after all, they're going around corrupting the people and making them believe themselves to be less than they could be.
This is an excellent point. Even if the gods don't exist, placing faith in mythical beings is a path leading people away from finding the true potential that lies within.
No. If you take out the metaphysical reason to oppose the Host, than opposing the Silver Flame becomes a simple matter of defending your brethren from a force that wishes to exterminate them (or avenging past acts of aggression). Again, on a purely mundane level, the SF is a far greater threat to the BoV than the SH (setting aside the actions of Dol Arrah's devoted warriors... but like the Aereni Deathguard, they are fewer in number than the SF Templars). It's simply that the SF has nothing to do with death itself. It is a MUNDANE threat... while the central thrust of the BoV is a more metaphysical war, searching for a way to overcome the curse of mortality.
For me, the central theme of the BoV is "What just god would allow suffering and death" - with the conclusion that none would. That we all have the potential power of a god within our blood - and that death is a curse inflicted by the jealous gods who do not want us to rise to their level. Hence the concept that the undead are martyrs, not blessed. By grasping this flawed form of immortality, they can help their fellows in the fight, and help guide them on the path to the Divinity Within. But in becoming undead, in losing the warmth of their blood, they surrender that spark of divinity. The typical peasant worshipper doesn't want to be a vampire; he wants divinity, and vampirism is a pale shadow of that. So again, the vampire is a martyr who has made a terrible sacrifice in order to aid others.
Of course, there are many followers of the BoV who don't believe in this lofty goal. Quite a few of the influential priests view the faith as a means to an end, especially within the Order of the Emerald Claw. They may seek the to harness the power of the Divinity within, but they care only for their OWN power. They do not believe that death is something that can be destroyed... and as such, undeath is a desirable goal for the power it can provide and the personal immortality. This is actually something I keep pointing out when people focus on the SF as the seat of religious corruption. The fact of the matter is that the BoV has at least as many corrupt priests, if not more... and unlike the SF, there's no Keeper struggling to clean house. On the contrary, Erandis herself is abusing the faith of her followers to accomplish her own selfish goals. The BoV paladin in my campaign is actually a devoted follower of the faith who's being personally guided by Erandis (through mystical visions)... but the PLAYER and I know that at some point he's going to realize that she's using him and the faith, and that some day he will have to choose between his loyalty to his mentor and the principles of his faith.
As a side note, the Deathguard is another place for avengers, invokers, and the like; as an elite divine strike force dedicated to battling undead and other dark forces, it would make an interesting choice for an all-divine party. With the Wis/Dex bonuses of elves, you might be able to find some interesting Rogue multiclassing options for these covert agents of the Undying Court.
I think a BoV avenger that didn't believe in the Host and the Six would have less reason to hate the average worshiper of the Sovereigns; after all, if the deities don't exist, it's not like an average faithful is doing anything to further their evil plans. More likely, the avenger would feel scorn and pity for those who would make up stories and look to someone else to save them, rather than rise up and save themselves with the real, true power in their own blood.
Those who actively promote the faith of the Sovereigns, though, are still likely targets for the avenger's wrath - after all, they're going around corrupting the people and making them believe themselves to be less than they could be.
Thanks for the clarifications
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