Now, this is my problem. Both races seem to make TERRIBLE primal characters. Both get a +2 to Dex/Cha. Meanwhile, both those stats are meaningless to many primal characters.
I am not suggesting that either race should not get a +2 to Dex. That bonus makes too much sense to do away with. So, that leave the bonus to charisma as the bonus I would like to examine.
Halflings seem like a race that should make good druids, wardens, barbarians, shamans, rogues, and rangers. With a +2 to dex rogues, rangers, and druids are covered. The dex can be of minor benefit to barbarian characters, and the charisma acts as a secondary stat for one type of barbarian character. Meanwhile, the warden is strength and con or wis and the shamen is wisdom and con or int. I don't know that I care about halfing wardens that much (doesn't really seem to play to the role of the race), but a halfling shaman seems to be a pretty iconic figure. A halfling shaman with a clawfoot spirit companion? Seems very iconic.
I don't really understand why halflings (in Eberron) would need a +2 to charisma. It does not really seem like it is up their ally. I don't see halfling warlocks as being an iconic element of the halfling persona in Eberron. But shamans? That seems very halfling to me. I was thinking, perhaps halfling in Eberron should get a +2 to Dex and Wisdom instead of Dex and Cha?
Which then leads me to Drow. Oddly enough, I don't think the same thing is true of Drow. Seems to me that Umbragen and the Fire-Binders are both better off with a +2 to Charisma (for Dark Pact Warlocks and Sorcerers respectively). Kind of sucks for the Fire-Binders that they won't make great artificers... but they are not really a PC race anyway. But then comes the Vulkoor drow. They are very primal. Now, I don't know how well Warden fits them. Maybe. Maybe not. I am undecided on that bit. I don't really seem them as big druids. But I think shamans (with a giant scorpion spirit animal) would be a major part of the Vulkoor tradition. Yet, again, drow just make awful shamans. In this case, I was thinking instead of changing the +2 to Cha into a +2 to wis, perhaps the Eberron drow should have a racial feat that allows Vulkoor shamans to use Cha instead of Wis for their shamanic powers and class abilities?
Just thoughts. I would like to know what others think.
That mechanic just does not do it for me. I want Talanta halfling shamans and Vulkoor shamans that are actually shamans.
But then again in 3.5 halflings were casted as barbarians with the mounted combat feat. And I'm hard pressed to find a core race having more trouble fitting that race than the Halfling... a -2 str and only small weapons...
So my point is, yes they should be shamans and druids and what not, but that does not mean they have to be the best fit mechanics wise. It is actually one of the things that really sold the setting for me. That you could take all the "I should" and throw it out replacing it with "this is cool".
So my point is, yes they should be shamans and druids and what not, but that does not mean they have to be the best fit mechanics wise.
Indeed. I would probably be inclined to come up with some sort of racial feat that makes it interesting to play a primal character from one of these races. So you might not have the max stat you could get from another race, but you have a unique cultural edge that adds depth to a drow shaman or halfling warden (possibly something taking advantage of a high Dex or Cha - I seem to recall racial feats in Martial Power that work on this principle, making it interesting to play a character of a race that is not on the surface the ideal match for a class).
I don't have time at the moment to think what I'd do for such feats, but it's probably the path I'd take.
.So, if feats are the way to go, how about a halfling feat which grants a +2 to hit with Warden or Shaman Invocations (its the +1 to hit from having a +2 to a stat, and then an extra +1 to hit to make up for the feat lost, and the fact that halflings will essentially lose a +1 to defense from picking Warden (because dex should be their dump stat).
Then, to keep things a little different flavor wise, Vulkoor drow could get a racial feat that grants them a +1 to hit and a +2 to damage with Shaman Invocations.
Alternatively, I could go with a feat for Drow that lets them use Cha instead of Wis for Shaman invocations and class abilities, and another feat that allows Halfling Wardens to use Dex instead of Str for Warden Invocations. I think it would be sort of neat to have Vulkoor shaman/multiclass dark pact warlocks and Halfling Warden/multiclass rogues work better than those combinations would for other races... but I am not sure that this suggestion is as balanced with my other suggestions though. My other suggestions have precedence in the RAW, and work out mathematically without changing the game in any major way. I don't really know what this change might inadvertently effect...
Thoughts? Which type of "racial feats" that make such primal classes more appealing to these races are the way to go?
That said, I wouldn't be a bit surprised for either the EPG or Primal Power to be liberally laden with racial feats.
So, Eberron Hafling and Eberron Drow seem, at first glance, to be the penultimate "primal" race. Both worship a plethora of spirits. Halflings want to become "one" with the spirits of their mounts. Drow worship the spirit of the scorpion (Vulkoor) amongst other things. Etc, etc, etc. ...
...I don't really understand why halflings (in Eberron) would need a +2 to charisma. It does not really seem like it is up their ally. I don't see halfling warlocks as being an iconic element of the halfling persona in Eberron. But shamans? That seems very halfling to me. I was thinking, perhaps halfling in Eberron should get a +2 to Dex and Wisdom instead of Dex and Cha?
I'm personally satisfied and comfortable enough with the stats as is that I feel I can make a Talenta halfling that fits the concept of the Jungle Dinosaur Rider. Do they need charisma? Well, that depends kinda on your take of the little Talenta barbarians. I always thought of them as a What-If concept of halflings not only deciding to be openly violent, but actually good at it. In many settings you see them as the sly trickster, who only means the shenanigans as a Joke. In Eberron, if a halfling gives you a flat tire, that's basically a sign that he's going to kill you in your sleep and feed you to his mount.
With that said, flavor wise I can still understand the +2 charisma in that they are still a proud, hot-blooded, headstrong race (yours is a raptor that will chew the heavens!). I never really saw them, even in 3.5 as a people who would take up the Druid or Barbarian class. They act barbarous, but they're means of combat still play up to their strengths. Most of the dino-riding hunters would be rogues, while many of their shamans and tribe leaders would be more akin to Warlocks (I'm thinking reflavored Fey Pact, but Star Pact might work) or even Wizards. Then again, I could easily see a few taking the Charisma Paladin route, their abilities a reflection of their tribal pride and a faith based affinity to the Dinosaurs and the Plains.
Then again, you could still just BE a Halfling Warden, or Drow Artificer. You won't be exceptional at first, but that doesn't mean won't still be a force to be reckoned with. You will grow in time to the hero you set out to be. That's the great thing about 4e, is that you don't have to be completely optimized to stay relevant.
Yes, but all their fluff matches the primal power source. Its all about praying to spirits, and actually becoming "one" with the spirits. Seems sort of silly to have the racial fluff match the power source, but then to force them to pick a class outside of that power source and to "rename" that class. That mechanic just does not do it for me. I want Talanta halfling shamans and Vulkoor shamans that are actually shamans.
Their fluff matches that of woodland dinosaur riding halflings. Nothing about that screams that they HAVE to be exceptional at a class geared toward wilderness. Look at the orcs in 3.5 with their -2 to Wis, and yet somehow they still were designated the forerunners of Druidism. You have plenty of options available to you, either through reskinning or just taking the class and race you want.
Their fluff matches that of woodland dinosaur riding halflings. Nothing about that screams that they HAVE to be exceptional at a class geared toward wilderness. Look at the orcs in 3.5 with their -2 to Wis, and yet somehow they still were designated the forerunners of Druidism. You have plenty of options available to you, either through reskinning or just taking the class and race you want.
Their fluff screams that they are all about primal spirit worship. One would assume that they would thus be a prime choice for a set of classes that are all about primal spirit worship. The reskinning or "simply play the class despite the fact that you are inferior" argument does not sit well with me. But if there are some racial feats geared towards primal halflings and drow in the EPG, I will be happy. That is enough. A feat could easily fix the issue.
Concerning the halflingsI don't know...the cha bonus might seem inappropriate for the Talentas, but is sounds perfect for Jorasco and Ghallanda members, not to mention the occasional mobster.
This is essentially the issue. A Charisma bonus is perfectly appropriate for a Boramar clansman or Ghallanda negotiator. Does one say "OK, so city halflings get a Cha bonus and country halflings get a Wis bonus?" What about Vulkoori drow vs Sulatar (who culturally are well suited to being infernal warlocks or wizards)? Once you start down that road, where do you stop? Do you switch racial bonuses for Tairnadal and Aereni? Zil gnomes and Eldeen gnomes? Dwarves from Lower Dura and Dwarves from Skyway?
Personally, I prefer not to make physiological changes - changes to the core racial abilities - for things that are cultural. I prefer to use feats for this, because feats aren't innate to the race; they are something that is chosen. The Tairnadal elf will may choose Mounted Combat, Bladebearer of the Valenar, and similar feats; the Aereni will not. But at the core, both are elves.
Look at the orcs in 3.5 with their -2 to Wis, and yet somehow they still were designated the forerunners of Druidism.
Yeah, he won't be as good at it as, say, a Shifter, but it's the difference between 'good' and 'better', not 'great' and 'awful'.
Right. Because cultural choices don't have to match game mechanics. Orcs CAN be druids, even if they can't have the highest Wisdom in the world. In 3E, Talenta halflings were often barbarians, in spite of having lower Str & Con than their orc counterparts in the Demon Wastes. Playing a halfling barbarian is a terrible choice for pure game efficiency, but we didn't give the Talenta halflings Strength bonuses. Even saying that their culture believes in spirits doesn't automatically make them the best at it - any more than Thranes are somehow innately superior clerics and paladins just because they live in a theocracy. You should see more primal classes among the Talenta halflings, but they aren't necessarily going to be better wardens than Eldeen shifters... especially because Eldeen shifters and Marcher orcs ALSO have a strong cultural bias towards primal classes!
So the thing to me is not to make it a no-brainer "If you're playing a warden, play a halfling" - but to make it a viable and interesting choice... to make feats that make a Talenta warden DIFFERENT from a shifter or orc warden.
Then, to keep things a little different flavor wise, Vulkoor drow could get a racial feat that grants them a +1 to hit and a +2 to damage with Shaman Invocations.
In my opinion, this is too strong as a heroic feat. Compare this to the Tiefling's Hellfire Blood - +1 to hit and +1 to damage with fire/fear powers, not a blanket "arcane powers". And to the best of my knowledge, this is the ONLY +1 to hit non-situational heroic feat bonus in the PHB. Bonuses to hit are a big deal.
Personally, I'd look at feats like Halfling Stalwart, Dwarf Stoneblood, Tactical Inspiration, and Opportunistic Accuracy. Halflings don't have any strong stat bonuses as fighters; Halfling Stalwart is designed to give something interesting to the player who decides to play one anyway (though honestly, it's slightly on the bland side). So I'd look at feats that let the halfling use Dex or Cha in place of secondary stats for class abilities, or to enhance class abilities - the way Tactical Inspiration allows an eladrin warlord to add his Int modifier to the amount he heals with Inspiring Word. Or perhaps, when the halfling uses his Second Chance racial ability, this triggers any warden benefits normally triggered by using Second Wind (among other things, giving him the option to use those abilities twice in one encounter). I wouldn't make the halfling flat-out BETTER than the shifter warden, especially because the shifter has an equally valid cultural connection; I'd just look at doing something that makes halflings an interesting choice for primal characters, even if more challenging to play.
But that's me. It's certainly simpler to just give Talenta halflings a +2 Wis instead of Cha, if that makes you happy, but what can I say - I'm a guy who never liked subraces. I don't know if there will be anything like this in the EPG, as I mainly worked on the ECG and haven't seen the final EPG files; there's a lot of material that needs to be squeezed in there. But I think some place like, oh, this board would be a great place to develop such feats if they AREN'T in the EPG. ;)
In my opinion, this is too strong as a heroic feat. Compare this to the Tiefling's Hellfire Blood - +1 to hit and +1 to damage with fire/fear powers, not a blanket "arcane powers". And to the best of my knowledge, this is the ONLY +1 to hit non-situational heroic feat bonus in the PHB. Bonuses to hit are a big deal.
I agree with everything you have said except for this tid-bit. To be honest, Hellfire Blood is a brokenly weak feat for what it is supposed to do. Hellfire Blood is supposed to represent why Tieflings make great infernal pact warlocks, despite gaining a bonus to Cha instead of Con. Here is the thing though, a +1 to hit and damage is nothing more than a +2 to your prime stat (in that case, constitution). So, this feat does not actually give the tiefling warlock anything interesting over any other choice. All it does is make a tiefling equal in power to a +2 constitution race as an infernal warlock, at the price of a feat. Except, a race that got a +2 to constitution would have got the exact same benefit without the expense of a feat, and would have a feat to spare. This still leaves the tiefling warlock as an inferior infernal warlock choice (at least if we only factor that feat into the equation. I have not really looked at what other options a tiefling warlock gets that might give them a bit of an extra boost as an infernal warlock). The only class that would really get a big bonus from that ability is an Int based class with fire powers. A wizard, for example, would get a huge benefit from that feat. With a +2 to int and that feat, tieflings make potent fire wizards indeed. The real power of that +1 to hit and damage with fire powers feat is that it is not a class specific bonus, its a damage type specific bonus.
Which is why I wrote the feat that I wrote the way I did. It specifically helps ONLY with Shaman powers. No other class can gain a benefit from it. It costs a feat. So, really, all that feat does is give drow the same benefit that a +2 to Wis race would get (a +1 to hit and damage with shaman powers) and then an extra +1 to damage in return for the expense of the feat lost in the process of "equalizing" the shaman class against other potential options. Since other options would still have their own racial feats, I really don't think that such a feat would make a drow the "best" choice for the class. This is even more true since shaman class abilities based of wisdom, such as "speak with the spirits," would gain no benefit from this feat. In this area, races with a +2 to wisdom would still be superior. Thus I think the option is more in line with your other suggestions (all of which I thought sounded great).
To be honest, Hellfire Blood is a brokenly weak feat for what it is supposed to do. Hellfire Blood is supposed to represent why Tieflings make great infernal pact warlocks, despite gaining a bonus to Cha instead of Con.
And I've got to disagree with you here.
First, let's look purely at the tiefling warlock. If you are going to make a warlock that takes absolutely nothing but infernal pact powers, and all you care about is maxing your appropriate stats, you are correct, you want a +Int/Con race, and this feat will not make up for the lower Con.
But that's not its only use.
Tieflings get a +2 Int: useful for all warlocks. They get a +2 Cha: useful for 50% of warlock powers. And at the expense of a feat they get a +1 to hit and damage with fire & fear powers, which are common for warlocks. This may leave them as inferior as PURE infernal warlocks - but it's great for the warlock who intends to take powers from multiple paths. It's especially good for the Star Pact warlock; it offsets the penalty to their Con-based powers (such as Dire Radiance, which is fear) while potentially making them more accurate than any other warlock at many Cha based powers (Dreadful Word - 1st level example of a Star/Cha/Fear power). So if I'm trying to be a FLEXIBLE warlock, I could go the half-elf route and get Con and Cha, but no bonus to Int; or I can go the Tiefling route, get Int and Cha, and Hellfire Blood to offset SOME of the penalties of lower Con. Is it as good as a +2 Con? OF COURSE NOT! Because I've got +2 Int/Cha; if I could get all the benefits of a +2 Con as well, it would be brokenly overpowered.
Beyond that, you yourself demonstrate that it's NOT just about making tieflings superior warlocks... because it also makes Tieflings superb fire wizards. Or sorcerers, for that matter (Burning Spray? Explosive Pyre? Tasty Charisma based fire powers.) It's hardly ideal, but hey, make a tiefling rogue and use Compel The Craven and Blackfire Wind; there's even some warlord powers this can tie to, not to mention multiclassing options. Tieflings are NOT the absolute best Infernal Warlocks, and this feat doesn't change that. What it does is to make them VERSATILE warlocks - and as a race, to have a reason to use powers related to fire and fear.
This is precisely why I like the fact that it is NOT in any way related to warlocks. It's not about warlocks. It's about fire and fear, and making those part of the heritage of the tiefling. Once you restrict it to warlocks, you do say "This is solely a feat for countering a deficiency in a particular warlock build" - which is not how I see it at all.
Let's look at dwarves. Per flavor, dwarves are a stalwart race that are well-suited to be fighters. But virtually all fighter powers trigger off Strength, and dwarves don't get a Strength bonus. If you want that max Strength, you go human or dragonborn. But dwarves don't get a feat that's "+1 to attack and +2 to damage with all fighter powers." Instead, they have Stoneblood Resilience, which uses their high Con to make them more efficient; Dwarven Weapon Training, which gives an advantage if you follow the color of the race (and can be useful across a broad class range, just like Hellfire Blood); and so on. As such, my point is that I'd rather not just give the halfling or drow a feat that essentially mimics what the other races have; I'd rather see something that takes THEIR unique strengths - their Charisma and Dexterity, or their racial powers - and makes them useful. Do something that triggers off of Second Chance, and your primal halfling is doing something that's absolutely unique to a halfing warden. Use a feat that plays off their unique weapons, and you've got something else that a barbarian or warden could use.
I've got no problem with agreeing to disagree on this... but I do see Hellfire Blood as being about more than the infernal warlock. ;)
We agree that hallfire blood is a good feat.
We agree that hellfire blood is a good feat not because of what it can do for infernal warlocks, but because what it can do for other builds and classes.
We agree, thus, that if hellfire blood was only supposed to make infernal warlocks a nice choice for tieflings, then the feat failed at its goal.
If this was not the goal of the feat, then the feat can largely be considered a success (because while it does not succeed at this task, it is still a very nice feat).
We thus agree that if the feat had been specifically worded to work only for infernal warlock powers, then the feat would have had to be more powerful in order to be worth taking.
Thus, doesn't that mean that if a drow specific feat were to be worded to only work for Shaman invocations, none of which work well with any of the drows stat bonuses (unlike the tieflings +2 to cha), none of which work with the drows secondary stat, then just like hellfire blood would have had to be more powerful to be worth taking if it only worked with infernal warlock powers then this specific drow feat would need to be more powerful than hellfire blood (when used with shaman invocations only) in order to be worth taking?
Thus, as hellfire blood is a +1 to hit and damage, doesn't that mean that a +1 to hit and a +2 to damage, from a feat, for drow, only with shaman invocations, should be fairly balanced when compared to a feat such as hellfire blood (and what hellfire blood does as a whole)? I mean, a tiefling wizard with hellfire blood essentially gains a +2 to hit and damage with wizard fire powers. So does a tiefling warlock using appropriate charisma based powers. Meanwhile, a drow shaman will never gain more than a +1 to hit and a +2 to damage, despite having taken that feat, because none of their bonus stats work well with the class. Indeed, because the shaman will require a high int instead of dex, and a high wis instead of cha, the bonuses to defense that drow get from dex and cha will still be lost as well (which would also not be the case with a tiefling who took hellfire blood), which will still leave drow behind the bell curve.
You stated that:
In my opinion, this is too strong as a heroic feat
in relation to a drow taking a feat that grants them a +1 to hit and a +2 to damage with shaman invocations. This is the only thing you have said that I am disagreeing with. I think in context with what a drow is loosing in order to play a shaman, and in context with what hellfire blood actually grants a tiefling in combination with its stat bonuses in comparison to what this theoretical feat would grant a drow shaman, that the feat is in fact nicely balanced against such a feat as hellfire blood.
Do you agree with me (once I have constructed my opinion in this manner), or do we agree to disagree?
On all other points I agree with you. I agree with everything you have said.
In the case of tieflings, i could see there being a tiefling infernal pact only PP for arcane power.
I really hope so.
Do you agree with me (once I have constructed my opinion in this manner), or do we agree to disagree?
There's a specific point on which I disagree, and I'll explain below. But overall, I'm happy to agree to disagree. I don't think that the feat you have presented makes drow shamans in any way overpowered. It's just not one I'd be likely to use in my campaign, for the reasons outlined below. But if you leave drow stats as they are, this feat is not some sort of gamebreaker.
We agree, thus, that if hellfire blood was only supposed to make infernal warlocks a nice choice for tieflings, then the feat failed at its goal.
Here we do not agree.
If you said "We agree that if Hellfire Blood was supposed to make a pure-infernal power warlock build as efficient for tieflings as it is for githzerai, it failed at its goal" I would agree. But again, just because you choose the infernal pact does not prevent you from taking powers from other pacts; at many levels, there are no bonuses for taking a power of your pact. The tiefling's racial bonus to Int helps it for warlocks of all builds, and the Charisma helps an infernal warlock who branches out. And put all these together with the feat, and the tiefling is a hell of a lot better as an Infernal warlock than a halfling or dragonborn... and a questionable match against a dwarf or human, who can max their Con to get the same attack and damage bonus as the tiefling with Hellfire Blood and gain other bonuses from the Con, but at the expense of the useful Int bonus and the potential value of Charisma. And this doesn't even begin to take into account the potential of Twofold Pact, if you allow that. Hellfire Blood does not match the potential of a specially optimized build for a race that is ideal for that build. But it still makes tieflings fine warlocks of any pact, in my opinion.
Beyond that, there is the issue of flavor. I like it BECAUSE it isn't tied to a class. It doesn't help the tiefling use Hunger of Hadar or Vampiric Embrace. It is about fire and fear - the powers within the blood of the tiefling. I see it as the parallel to the dwarf and eladrin weapon feats. A dwarf is encouraged to use hammers and axes because of the racial feats. A tiefling is encouraged to use fire and fear powers. Once you broaden that to "all infernal pact powers", you're actually discouraging the flexible build that the tiefling is currently so good at - encouraging him to focus purely on that one path and NOT to take Witchfire or Dreadful Word.
So: First of all, I simply dislike feats providing attack bonuses. Given the drow stats, such a feat isn't really overpowered - but it's something the designers have chosen to minimize in heroic feats and personally, and I'd rather hold to that. Again, the dwarf fighter can't match the strength of the human, but they chose to give him proficiency and damage, not a bonus to hit; he simply has to live with that lower attack bonus. His strength is his durability, not his accuracy, and feats like Stoneblood Resilience play off that concept. The strong countering argument here is that both of the dwarf's stat bonuses are secondaries for the fighter, while the drow bonuses don't help the shaman at all. I'll come back to that.
Second, I'd like to see something that has more flavor. The Tiefling feat isn't just a flat bonus to infernal powers; it's about fire and fear. The Dwarves don't get a bonus to hit; they get bonuses to durability and axes. And so on. Again, I'd rather see something that makes the drow shaman an INTERESTING choice, not the OPTIMAL choice (having said that, your feat certainly doesn't make a drow the optimal shaman; I'm speaking to general philosophy, not your specific feat).
So how can you do that when, unlike the dwarf fighter the halfling and drow have poor stats all around for most primal classes? Change the rules. It's a radical option - and potentially far more unbalanced than the simple +1/+2 you suggest - but in my campaign, I'd be more likely to do something like:
TALENTA MASKWEAVER
Prerequisites: Halfling, region of origin Talenta Plains
Where the big folk rely on mental discipline and concrete tradition to commune with the spirits, you use your wits and force of personality to persuade them to aid you.
Substitute your Charisma for your Wisdom for all effects Wisdom is normally used for in a primal class, including both powers and class features. If you are wearing a Talenta spirit mask (a head slot item) you gain a +1 feat bonus to damage rolls when using primal powers. This bonus increases to +2 at 11th level and +3 at 21st level.
As I said - wildly more out there, and in principle far BETTER than your +1/+2, because it actually IS a +1/+2 (since the character gets the +1/+1 from the Cha bonus, the additional +1 feat bonus, and other benefits besides). I haven't checked the impact with every possible power (one issue is whether there's a primal class that in some way benefits from Wis + Cha, and if so, whether they should double Cha, which would encourage min/maxing there). But purely on the surface, what it does is to make a Talenta druid - or warden, for that matter - DIFFERENT from one of any other race. A Talenta druid or shaman may want to use Skill Training to get Bluff or Diplomacy - reflecting the strong storytelling tradition of their culture and the idea that the druid is bartering with nature as opposed to simply calling on its powers. He's quick and clever - but not as patient and perceptive as the old Shifter Moonspeaker.
I threw in the damage bonus on the same principle you've been bringing up. All the Cha/Wis swap does is put the halfling on an equal footing with a character from a +Wis race, but the halfling's lost a feat. This provides a secondary bonus, but only if using the mask... which is a neck slot item and thus a minor sacrifice, though you will likely have magic masks. It thus adds color on par with the dwarf using a hammer; it gives the halfling a reason to want to wear his mask, even in a situation where it may be socially inappropriate. As it's a feat bonus, it can't stack with most other feats. However, it might be overkill. Yes, the halfling druid loses a feat to get to use Cha instead of Wis... but given that normally he COULDN'T use Cha instead of Wis, he's still getting a +1/+1 even without that bonus, and he's better off than the Dragonborn shaman.
I literally made this up off the top of my head. I haven't had a chance to look over all the possible combinations and ways it might be broken, and there's every chance that in a day I'll say "What was I thinking, that's the worst feat ever!" But it's the KIND of feat I'd rather see - something that makes a Talenta druid substantially different from an Eldeen druid, as opposed to just a flat attack bonus.
Neat, thank you very much for your input.
Thanks for putting up with it! ;)