Eberron Favours Heroic and Paragon Tiers? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Eberron Favours Heroic and Paragon Tiers?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
kaodi
May 20, 2011 18:58:32 For the purposes of Eberron, do you think 20th level in 4th Edition still amounts to somewhere around where 20th level fell in 3e? That is to say: should campaigns that make it to the epic tier be the exception rather than the rule? I have all of the 3e Eberron books, but not the 4th Edition, so I do not know what sort of NPCs have been crunched on and what level they are. Would Erandis d'Vol be considered to be an 18th-20th level Elite (or maybe even Solo)? I mean, of course there was some room in 3e Eberron for epic level characters, but certainly they would have precious little to challenge them in all of Khorvaire (which, being hte main stomping ground, is rather significant).
#2
Good_Fellow
May 21, 2011 0:47:20 In 4e Lady Vol is listed as level 19 Controller. Overall most of Eberron's big NPC's don't tend to sweep into epic so much. The Lord of Blades is 21 so just starting epic. Running an epic campaign in Eberron would be tough since you're right, even the big movers and shakers are no threat to a group of 4 or 5 epic level PC's. I suppose that's why the planes exist though, since getting offworld seems the only way to go to keep things reasonably balanced.
#3
Magicstar1
May 21, 2011 4:59:42 I've been struggling with this lately in plannig my campaign from paragon out. At first I was unsure whether I could do a conceivabe storyline in epic but I actually think I can and have set my sight on continueing the game all the way through 30. Granted the conventional movers and shakers are not that high but I can easily picture for instance the Daughters to improve, dragons are easy, as are the Quori and the lords of dust. It needs some planning but I think Eberron ca go to 30.
#4
Beleriphon
May 21, 2011 16:27:01
In 4e Lady Vol is listed as level 19 Controller. Overall most of Eberron's big NPC's don't tend to sweep into epic so much. The Lord of Blades is 21 so just starting epic. Running an epic campaign in Eberron would be tough since you're right, even the big movers and shakers are no threat to a group of 4 or 5 epic level PC's. I suppose that's why the planes exist though, since getting offworld seems the only way to go to keep things reasonably balanced.

The Lords of Dust and other extraplanar nasties are really just the Level 35 solos from other books. As I recall one of them is in the ECG and is a Level 32 Solo.
#5
MrCelsius
May 21, 2011 21:20:28 Meh. I've run one Eberron campaign 1-30 and didn't see anything in the way of a problem. It's true that most of the setpiece NPCs of the setting proper peak around 20, but that doesn't mean Eberron games stop there by any means. Yes, you're going to find a lot of the epic-tier threats in other planes (or arriving from other planes), but that's just a matter of geography and scale. Frodo had to go to Mordor to face the big bad because things that scary just don't live in the Shire. If Eberron were home to every 30-range threat, there probably wouldn't be an Eberron left.

Still, it's not as though the party fixes or out-levels everything in the material plane and ditches it to find a new, entirely unrelated adventure on another plane. Whatever the party's been dealing with in the paragon tier turns out to have its source somewhere more at-home to the epic tier. In my campaign, for example, the party spent the paragon tier facing a number of seemingly disparate threats only to find that they were all the work of an elaborate plot by Orcus meant to shatter the Prophecy. Cue a trip to Dolurrh for the ultimate showdown of ultimate destiny. It's off-world, but it's utterly relevant to what's been going on in Eberron, and Eberron is a fertile enough setting that it's very easy for off-world epic content to be firmly rooted in its lore.
#6
Madfox11
May 23, 2011 12:07:26
In 4e Lady Vol is listed as level 19 Controller. Overall most of Eberron's big NPC's don't tend to sweep into epic so much. The Lord of Blades is 21 so just starting epic. Running an epic campaign in Eberron would be tough since you're right, even the big movers and shakers are no threat to a group of 4 or 5 epic level PC's. I suppose that's why the planes exist though, since getting offworld seems the only way to go to keep things reasonably balanced.

In the games of Eberron Lady Vol and the Lord of Blades. The true players in Eberron are the Quori, the Lords of Dust, dragons, and dhaelkyr. Creatures that are older than even Lady Vol, and for whom the Lord of Blades is not around long enough to be even considered the blink of an eye (assuming he is not a pawn of one force or another). I think there are more opportunities for epic play in Eberron than Dark Sun. It is just that instead of dealing with the pawns, you get to play with the players ;)
#7
hanzo187
May 23, 2011 20:54:07 I think of Heroic threats (or just organizations in general) as initial enemies or groups that are threats only where they are, such as the criminal gangs of Sharn, the Royal Eyes (though they could be paragon), the King's Citadel (see Royal Eyes), and Eberron's terror networks (Order of the Emerald Claw).

I tend to think of the Paragon tier threats as visible but capable of threatening nations, even continents, on their own, i.e. The Lord of Blades (even though he's Epic tier, he cuts it close), Lady Vol, the Kech Shaarat of Darguun, low-ranking agents of the Lords of Dust, most of the dragons of Argonessen, even the dragonmarked houses (the ghorad'in and the Serpentine Table come to mind)

I see Epic tier threats as those who could conceivably take over the entire world of Eberron if they set their minds to the task, and I see plenty of NPC's that could potentially do that. The Daughters of Sora Kell (all three could do it), Mordain the Fleshweaver, Argonnessen's older dragons, The Dreaming Dark (who might very well be on par with the Lords of Dust), the daelkyr, the Lords of Dust, and of course, the Overlords, who are well past level 30.

I see plenty of potential enemies, no matter the level. I think the greater challenge is figuring out how to tie the epic threats into the lower tiers. Hey, maybe your final quest at level 30 could be fighting the progenitor dragons.
#8
Madfox11
May 24, 2011 6:41:48
I think the greater challenge is figuring out how to tie the epic threats into the lower tiers.

In my experience keeping things focussed is the challenge ;) There are simply too many cool villains at all levels, and you cannot use them all without it becomming a confusing mess ;)

#9
reviler
May 24, 2011 20:40:41 i agree with all that has been said above. Eberron has cool organizations, and villians that are easily encountered in and through the heroic and paragon levels. When it comes to the epic levels, that is were the world destroying, mind shattering, threats come in, and they would be encountered in their home turf, which tends to be the planes.
#10
Hellcow
May 26, 2011 14:15:55
In 4e Lady Vol is listed as level 19 Controller.

One of the themes of Eberron is recurring villains, which means that as the players grow more powerful, the "players of the opposition" should as well. Doctor Doom and Magneto don't suddenly stop being threats because the Fantastic Four gain a few levels. Likewise, while Bel Shalor pretty much is what he is, the Lord of Blades and Erandis Vol are both actively working to increase their power and fulfil THEIR epic destinies. Their starting stats set the bar that they are quite powerful to begin with - but they should advance to stay a threat to the PCs. The description of Erandis in the ECG says the following:

The statistics below represent Lady Vol’s abilities in her current state. Should she succeed in her apotheosis, she will have powers rivaling a god’s. It is up to you to decide what steps are required for her to rise to this level, but it should be a serious challenge; she has been working toward it for thousands of years. She’ll need ancient artifacts, books of forgotten lore, or possibly to make deals with demonic overlords. She might create eldritch machines with the apparent goal of turning everyone in Sharn into a zombie—but the true goal of which is to weaken the borders between Eberron and Dolurrh (a goal she can achieve even in defeat). Her apotheosis should be the culmination of a long story arc. It’s also up to you to decide what happens if Erandis ascends. Will she terrorize the world until she is defeated? Or, with her destiny secured, will she retire to Dolurrh and become a worthy ruler of her new realm of the dead?

#11
hanzo187
May 27, 2011 16:30:49
In 4e Lady Vol is listed as level 19 Controller.

One of the themes of Eberron is recurring villains, which means that as the players grow more powerful, the "players of the opposition" should as well. Doctor Doom and Magneto don't suddenly stop being threats because the Fantastic Four gain a few levels. Likewise, while Bel Shalor pretty much is what he is, the Lord of Blades and Erandis Vol are both actively working to increase their power and fulfil THEIR epic destinies. Their starting stats set the bar that they are quite powerful to begin with - but they should advance to stay a threat to the PCs. The description of Erandis in the ECG says the following:

The statistics below represent Lady Vol’s abilities in her current state. Should she succeed in her apotheosis, she will have powers rivaling a god’s. It is up to you to decide what steps are required for her to rise to this level, but it should be a serious challenge; she has been working toward it for thousands of years. She’ll need ancient artifacts, books of forgotten lore, or possibly to make deals with demonic overlords. She might create eldritch machines with the apparent goal of turning everyone in Sharn into a zombie—but the true goal of which is to weaken the borders between Eberron and Dolurrh (a goal she can achieve even in defeat). Her apotheosis should be the culmination of a long story arc. It’s also up to you to decide what happens if Erandis ascends. Will she terrorize the world until she is defeated? Or, with her destiny secured, will she retire to Dolurrh and become a worthy ruler of her new realm of the dead?

One big love I have about this theme is that the recurrence doesn't necessarily have to be about the enemy in and of itself, i.e. legacies or friends of said enemy. For example, maybe Erandis' apotheosis is the resurrection of the Emerald Claw (of course, I don't know many dads who'd be thrilled seeing their daughter as a lich, but one can wonder, right?) or maybe she already achieved it to a point (the Mourning) and need only make her way to said place where she can fully receive her power (the Mournland is filled with arcane energy, which is perfect for Erandis). Something like that, and the Order of the Emerald Claw is perfect as a heroic precursor to this, with the Crimson Covenant (if that's right) being good paragon villains.

As for the Lord of Blades, that could be one long investigation, beginning with the last known whereabouts of the usual suspects (Bulwark, Rampart, etc.). Hell, it might be a stretch to think of the Lord of Blades as an upgraded warforged from Xen'Drik. In other words, the Dreaming Dark is behind it all. Or maybe the Becoming God is the being the Lord of Blades plans to become through a ritual of some kind.

Maybe the Kech Shaarat (or Kech Volaar, if you prefer) have uncovered a fragment of the Draconic Prophecy within the Seven Caves that deals with the release of the daelkyr back to the surface world. The Sword of the True King's power is never described, but maybe it is some kind of super-byeshk sword that causes more harm to the daelkyr than a standard byeshk. However, the Sword's power cannot be unlocked until all of the dar are united, which may explain why Ruus is so aggressive in trying to unite the Dhakaani clans. Maybe it's his way of getting ready for a more terrible foe. That's one way of tying a paragon threat into the epic tier. How this can be tied in the heroic tier is a little tougher, but it might be easier than I'm thinking.

Just ideas I've had for a while now, but it definitely drives Mr. Baker's point home.
#12
cerberuspuppy
Aug 02, 2011 17:02:15 I plan on making the Lords of Dust the Big Bad of the Epic Tier in my campaign. That should provide plenty of material. At some point I can have a dungeon crawl in a demon citadel.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 kaodi May 20, 2011 18:58:32	For the purposes of Eberron, do you think 20th level in 4th Edition still amounts to somewhere around where 20th level fell in 3e? That is to say: should campaigns that make it to the epic tier be the exception rather than the rule? I have all of the 3e Eberron books, but not the 4th Edition, so I do not know what sort of NPCs have been crunched on and what level they are. Would Erandis d'Vol be considered to be an 18th-20th level Elite (or maybe even Solo)? I mean, of course there was some room in 3e Eberron for epic level characters, but certainly they would have precious little to challenge them in all of Khorvaire (which, being hte main stomping ground, is rather significant).
#2 Good_Fellow May 21, 2011 0:47:20	In 4e Lady Vol is listed as level 19 Controller. Overall most of Eberron's big NPC's don't tend to sweep into epic so much. The Lord of Blades is 21 so just starting epic. Running an epic campaign in Eberron would be tough since you're right, even the big movers and shakers are no threat to a group of 4 or 5 epic level PC's. I suppose that's why the planes exist though, since getting offworld seems the only way to go to keep things reasonably balanced.
#3 Magicstar1 May 21, 2011 4:59:42	I've been struggling with this lately in plannig my campaign from paragon out. At first I was unsure whether I could do a conceivabe storyline in epic but I actually think I can and have set my sight on continueing the game all the way through 30. Granted the conventional movers and shakers are not that high but I can easily picture for instance the Daughters to improve, dragons are easy, as are the Quori and the lords of dust. It needs some planning but I think Eberron ca go to 30.
#4 Beleriphon May 21, 2011 16:27:01	In 4e Lady Vol is listed as level 19 Controller. Overall most of Eberron's big NPC's don't tend to sweep into epic so much. The Lord of Blades is 21 so just starting epic. Running an epic campaign in Eberron would be tough since you're right, even the big movers and shakers are no threat to a group of 4 or 5 epic level PC's. I suppose that's why the planes exist though, since getting offworld seems the only way to go to keep things reasonably balanced. The Lords of Dust and other extraplanar nasties are really just the Level 35 solos from other books. As I recall one of them is in the ECG and is a Level 32 Solo.
#5 MrCelsius May 21, 2011 21:20:28	Meh. I've run one Eberron campaign 1-30 and didn't see anything in the way of a problem. It's true that most of the setpiece NPCs of the setting proper peak around 20, but that doesn't mean Eberron games stop there by any means. Yes, you're going to find a lot of the epic-tier threats in other planes (or arriving from other planes), but that's just a matter of geography and scale. Frodo had to go to Mordor to face the big bad because things that scary just don't live in the Shire. If Eberron were home to every 30-range threat, there probably wouldn't be an Eberron left. Still, it's not as though the party fixes or out-levels everything in the material plane and ditches it to find a new, entirely unrelated adventure on another plane. Whatever the party's been dealing with in the paragon tier turns out to have its source somewhere more at-home to the epic tier. In my campaign, for example, the party spent the paragon tier facing a number of seemingly disparate threats only to find that they were all the work of an elaborate plot by Orcus meant to shatter the Prophecy. Cue a trip to Dolurrh for the ultimate showdown of ultimate destiny. It's off-world, but it's utterly relevant to what's been going on in Eberron, and Eberron is a fertile enough setting that it's very easy for off-world epic content to be firmly rooted in its lore.
#6 Madfox11 May 23, 2011 12:07:26	In 4e Lady Vol is listed as level 19 Controller. Overall most of Eberron's big NPC's don't tend to sweep into epic so much. The Lord of Blades is 21 so just starting epic. Running an epic campaign in Eberron would be tough since you're right, even the big movers and shakers are no threat to a group of 4 or 5 epic level PC's. I suppose that's why the planes exist though, since getting offworld seems the only way to go to keep things reasonably balanced. In the games of Eberron Lady Vol and the Lord of Blades. The true players in Eberron are the Quori, the Lords of Dust, dragons, and dhaelkyr. Creatures that are older than even Lady Vol, and for whom the Lord of Blades is not around long enough to be even considered the blink of an eye (assuming he is not a pawn of one force or another). I think there are more opportunities for epic play in Eberron than Dark Sun. It is just that instead of dealing with the pawns, you get to play with the players ;)
#7 hanzo187 May 23, 2011 20:54:07	I think of Heroic threats (or just organizations in general) as initial enemies or groups that are threats only where they are, such as the criminal gangs of Sharn, the Royal Eyes (though they could be paragon), the King's Citadel (see Royal Eyes), and Eberron's terror networks (Order of the Emerald Claw). I tend to think of the Paragon tier threats as visible but capable of threatening nations, even continents, on their own, i.e. The Lord of Blades (even though he's Epic tier, he cuts it close), Lady Vol, the Kech Shaarat of Darguun, low-ranking agents of the Lords of Dust, most of the dragons of Argonessen, even the dragonmarked houses (the ghorad'in and the Serpentine Table come to mind) I see Epic tier threats as those who could conceivably take over the entire world of Eberron if they set their minds to the task, and I see plenty of NPC's that could potentially do that. The Daughters of Sora Kell (all three could do it), Mordain the Fleshweaver, Argonnessen's older dragons, The Dreaming Dark (who might very well be on par with the Lords of Dust), the daelkyr, the Lords of Dust, and of course, the Overlords, who are well past level 30. I see plenty of potential enemies, no matter the level. I think the greater challenge is figuring out how to tie the epic threats into the lower tiers. Hey, maybe your final quest at level 30 could be fighting the progenitor dragons.
#8 Madfox11 May 24, 2011 6:41:48	I think the greater challenge is figuring out how to tie the epic threats into the lower tiers. In my experience keeping things focussed is the challenge ;) There are simply too many cool villains at all levels, and you cannot use them all without it becomming a confusing mess ;)
#9 reviler May 24, 2011 20:40:41	i agree with all that has been said above. Eberron has cool organizations, and villians that are easily encountered in and through the heroic and paragon levels. When it comes to the epic levels, that is were the world destroying, mind shattering, threats come in, and they would be encountered in their home turf, which tends to be the planes.
#10 Hellcow May 26, 2011 14:15:55	In 4e Lady Vol is listed as level 19 Controller. One of the themes of Eberron is recurring villains, which means that as the players grow more powerful, the "players of the opposition" should as well. Doctor Doom and Magneto don't suddenly stop being threats because the Fantastic Four gain a few levels. Likewise, while Bel Shalor pretty much is what he is, the Lord of Blades and Erandis Vol are both actively working to increase their power and fulfil THEIR epic destinies. Their starting stats set the bar that they are quite powerful to begin with - but they should advance to stay a threat to the PCs. The description of Erandis in the ECG says the following: The statistics below represent Lady Vol’s abilities in her current state. Should she succeed in her apotheosis, she will have powers rivaling a god’s. It is up to you to decide what steps are required for her to rise to this level, but it should be a serious challenge; she has been working toward it for thousands of years. She’ll need ancient artifacts, books of forgotten lore, or possibly to make deals with demonic overlords. She might create eldritch machines with the apparent goal of turning everyone in Sharn into a zombie—but the true goal of which is to weaken the borders between Eberron and Dolurrh (a goal she can achieve even in defeat). Her apotheosis should be the culmination of a long story arc. It’s also up to you to decide what happens if Erandis ascends. Will she terrorize the world until she is defeated? Or, with her destiny secured, will she retire to Dolurrh and become a worthy ruler of her new realm of the dead?
#11 hanzo187 May 27, 2011 16:30:49	In 4e Lady Vol is listed as level 19 Controller. One of the themes of Eberron is recurring villains, which means that as the players grow more powerful, the "players of the opposition" should as well. Doctor Doom and Magneto don't suddenly stop being threats because the Fantastic Four gain a few levels. Likewise, while Bel Shalor pretty much is what he is, the Lord of Blades and Erandis Vol are both actively working to increase their power and fulfil THEIR epic destinies. Their starting stats set the bar that they are quite powerful to begin with - but they should advance to stay a threat to the PCs. The description of Erandis in the ECG says the following: The statistics below represent Lady Vol’s abilities in her current state. Should she succeed in her apotheosis, she will have powers rivaling a god’s. It is up to you to decide what steps are required for her to rise to this level, but it should be a serious challenge; she has been working toward it for thousands of years. She’ll need ancient artifacts, books of forgotten lore, or possibly to make deals with demonic overlords. She might create eldritch machines with the apparent goal of turning everyone in Sharn into a zombie—but the true goal of which is to weaken the borders between Eberron and Dolurrh (a goal she can achieve even in defeat). Her apotheosis should be the culmination of a long story arc. It’s also up to you to decide what happens if Erandis ascends. Will she terrorize the world until she is defeated? Or, with her destiny secured, will she retire to Dolurrh and become a worthy ruler of her new realm of the dead? One big love I have about this theme is that the recurrence doesn't necessarily have to be about the enemy in and of itself, i.e. legacies or friends of said enemy. For example, maybe Erandis' apotheosis is the resurrection of the Emerald Claw (of course, I don't know many dads who'd be thrilled seeing their daughter as a lich, but one can wonder, right?) or maybe she already achieved it to a point (the Mourning) and need only make her way to said place where she can fully receive her power (the Mournland is filled with arcane energy, which is perfect for Erandis). Something like that, and the Order of the Emerald Claw is perfect as a heroic precursor to this, with the Crimson Covenant (if that's right) being good paragon villains. As for the Lord of Blades, that could be one long investigation, beginning with the last known whereabouts of the usual suspects (Bulwark, Rampart, etc.). Hell, it might be a stretch to think of the Lord of Blades as an upgraded warforged from Xen'Drik. In other words, the Dreaming Dark is behind it all. Or maybe the Becoming God is the being the Lord of Blades plans to become through a ritual of some kind. Maybe the Kech Shaarat (or Kech Volaar, if you prefer) have uncovered a fragment of the Draconic Prophecy within the Seven Caves that deals with the release of the daelkyr back to the surface world. The Sword of the True King's power is never described, but maybe it is some kind of super-byeshk sword that causes more harm to the daelkyr than a standard byeshk. However, the Sword's power cannot be unlocked until all of the dar are united, which may explain why Ruus is so aggressive in trying to unite the Dhakaani clans. Maybe it's his way of getting ready for a more terrible foe. That's one way of tying a paragon threat into the epic tier. How this can be tied in the heroic tier is a little tougher, but it might be easier than I'm thinking. Just ideas I've had for a while now, but it definitely drives Mr. Baker's point home.
#12 cerberuspuppy Aug 02, 2011 17:02:15	I plan on making the Lords of Dust the Big Bad of the Epic Tier in my campaign. That should provide plenty of material. At some point I can have a dungeon crawl in a demon citadel.