Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Cyber-Dave Nov 24, 2008 15:44:03	So, with me getting all excited about Amethyst 4e and its rules for sci-fi technology, I got to thinking about what sort of sci-fantasy game I might want to run. I mean, I COULD just run the Amethyst setting, but for whatever reason I wanted something a little different... something with space travel, galaxy spanning events, but an uber gothic pretty much fantasy feel. A game that is both science fiction and fantasy. A game that would be better suited to the 4e ruleset then the Saga ruleset (which I usually prefer for "harder" science fiction games, ironic as using a Star Wars system for a "hard sci-fi" game may seem). I wanted something similar to what I imagine Warhammer 40k is... though I don't really know since all my Warhammer 40k knowledge is actually second hand. I have never actually played the game or read any of the literature other then the 40k wiki. Thing is, since I don't have any first hand contact with a Warhammer 40k game, it would feel a little weird running one. I would pretty much be making up 90% of the game, and then using my second hand knowledge to flavor the setting. It would pretty much be my own sci-fantasy, but a rip off of Warhammer 40k. For whatever reason I didn't like that. But, I got to thinking, around the same time that Amethyst is released Eberron 4e will be released. Now, some elements of Eberron actually seem similar to the key elements I like from Warhammer 40k. For example, the lack of actual "gods," and the ability for anybody to begin to possess magical capabilities through belief. Its not exactly the same as what I have read about the "Warp" and the Warhammer 40k "gods" or "deamons," but I do see some similarities. This led me to my next idea. In many ways Eberron is a medieval fantasy world that often feels like it takes place in modern time. It has magical robots, trains, flying ships, skyscrapers, and massive walking mecha (though the term really doesn't fit completely, because nobody sits in the warforged titan :P). But in the end, for all its technology (or would it be magicknology?), Eberron is still a world of knights and swords. But, what if it wasn't? What if instead of a a medieval world with some modern day aspects Eberron was presented as a far flung future galaxy with some distinct medieval elements? What if Eberron was infused with a very strong does of 40k feel? To make my suggestion more clear, I am not suggesting that we (whoever decides they find my idea interesting and want to help/leave some comments behind) push the Eberron time line into the future. I am suggesting an alternate Eberron setting. A setting with the exact same timeline. But, instead of having Khorvaire, Xen'Drik, Argonnessen, or Sarlona be continents, they are expansive regions of space. Cities would become planets, or perhaps entire solar systems. Sharn, for example, would likely be an ecumenopolis with its surrounding landscape being represented by the other planets in the solar system. As for Siberys, Khyber, and Eberron, like in classic Eberron they are a legend. Perhaps they were the first dragons, which in turn were one of the first sentient races. Perhaps they were something else. Legends say that these three beings warred with each other, and this war led to Khyber becoming the "depths" (whatever that means), Siberys becoming the glowing ring that surrounds the galaxy (think the way the milky way appears in the sky from earth), and Eberron becoming something in between. What exactly this legend means nobody is sure. They say that Siberys created the next generation of dragons, Eberron created all life, and Khyber spat out fiends. Perhaps this means these three Old Ones biogenetically engineered life? Others theorize that the Astral Sea (this settings version of Warhammer 40k's Warp) is directly affected by sentience. They claim this is why belief in a god allows one to psychically effect reality in turn. These philosophers claim that the three Old Ones must have created life in order to increase the total amount of sentience defending their particular beliefs... in essence creating beings to believe that their belief's might hold power over the shape of the Astral Sea. Perhaps this is what the Prophesy is, the shape of the Astral Sea. Such creatures are often called heretics by the more pious. Next comes technology. Non magical technology in this setting, by definition, will have to be somewhat more advanced. In classic Eberron many races migrated from continent to continent without magical aid. They used boats. Boats, in classic Eberron, are a form of non magic technology. This version of Eberron would require something analogues. So, none magic space ships (and probably some basic non magic weapons, such as basic chemically powered guns and the like) must exist. But its important to remember the feel of this setting. Whatever else it is, its still D&D, its still Eberron, its still points of light. So, travel from place to place with these ships is difficult and slow. Early settlements often had no connect with their neighbors due to the time and danger of interstellar travel. And, Eberron is still a place of magic. Higher technological capabilities, things like laser guns, gauss weapons, power armor, advanced spaceships, even the ability to travel between stars with any sort of speed or reliability, will all be functions of magic. For example, House Orion still bears the mark of passage. They have built the lightning gates (jump gates that replace the role of the lightning rail in the setting), their scions can teleport between worlds with a thought. Meanwhile house Lyrander still bears the mark of the storm. Their navigators are required to pilot the helms of advanced elemental bound magi-tech ships capable of punching through the real world into the Astral Sea and thus traveling across the galaxy at advanced speeds. Only their navigators can manage to travel through the storms of the Astral sea with any sort of real chance of success. The Marks, their guilds, and their influence, is alive and well. Technology is technology as just a primitive form of magic, and higher forms of technology must utilize magic just like they do in Eberron. And the basic end result is Eberron "40k" (though the name 40k has nothing to do with anything other then a homage to where I got the idea for such a setting from). I was thinking that the sort of game I would run would be a Xoriat incursion campaign, Xoriat being some sort of alternate reality from beyond the Astral Sea which is attempting to invade and alter our reality to fit their needs. A sort of "horror in space" campaign. Anyways... thoughts on my idea? Stupid? Interesting? If you were going to convert elements of classic Eberron into Eberron 40k, how would you go about doing so?
#2 julescarv Nov 24, 2008 16:53:51	I think that if you want to run a space-based, sci-fantasy Eberron game, it's probably best to do so on independent grounds and ditch the idea of using WH40K as a basis entirely. That, or ditch the Eberron. I think that the two settings are so different -- pretty close to being exact opposites, in fact -- that I don't think attempting to blend the two would really be productive. (See this old post for more info, including both a more detailed post of my views and a bunch of other discussion on the ideas of 40K/Eberron.)
#3 Cyber-Dave Nov 24, 2008 17:51:15	I think that if you want to run a space-based, sci-fantasy Eberron game, it's probably best to do so on independent grounds and ditch the idea of using WH40K as a basis entirely. That, or ditch the Eberron. I think that the two settings are so different -- pretty close to being exact opposites, in fact -- that I don't think attempting to blend the two would really be productive. (See this old post for more info, including both a more detailed post of my views and a bunch of other discussion on the ideas of 40K/Eberron.) You didn't really read my post, did you... You sort of just scanned it, and then zeroed in on two key words: Eberron and 40k. You then made an assumption about my intent without reading what I wrote to double check what it was. Am I correct? The extent of "40k" in anything I wrote above is that I am trying to create a space-fantasy. Something gothic. Otherwise wholly Eberron. I nowhere suggested using actual elements of Warhammer 40k (such as the theocracy of Warhammer 40k) in my "Eberron 40k" setting. I was suggesting the possibility of turning Eberron, its timeline, its factions, its plot, into a points of light space-fantasy with a technology and aesthetic similar to that of Warhammer 40k. In other words, the last war fought by armies with bolters and lasers, and elite troops in power armor with chain blades. The factions and their setup, however, is totally Eberronian. So, in other words, this: I think that if you want to run a space-based, sci-fantasy Eberron game, it's probably best to do so on independent grounds and ditch the idea of using WH40K as a basis entirely. was already my plan. I even mentioned as much in my above post. I stated that Warhammer 40k, and its aesthetic, inspired me. But I know nothing about the setting, at least in any real detail, so actually running a 40k setting is out of the question. Instead I was interested in creating a sci-fantasy Eberron with a 40k visual aesthetic... which is what you suggested... which is what I stated I planned on doing in my first post. So, back to square one... suggestions?
#4 julescarv Dec 03, 2008 16:45:19	Actually, the fact that you already seemed to be moving away from the 40K idea is partially what lead me to suggest ditching it entirely. I figured that since the link was already tenuous in your original post, snapping the link entirely could liberate the setting concept. I may not have read post #1 very closely, but I definitely picked up on the fact that you only saw tenuous links between WH40K and Eberron -- so by my logic, why not just say "Eberron in space" rather than Eberron 40K? Anyway, moving on -- one thing that's interesting in ECS is that Bahamut and Tiamat are constellations. What if you kept that for your Eberron 40K type setting, but decided that they correspond to a neighborhood of stars, sufficiently distant that no one in the neighborhood of Khorvaire, etc, has ever reached them -- perhaps even constellations of galaxies, rather than individual stars. Rather than just being constellations picked out by astronomers, they actually are near the original home of dragonkind -- the Tiamat constellation corresponding to a ruthless draconic empire lead by the evil dragon warlord Tiamat, the Bahamut constellation corresponding to the empire lead by the benevolent dragon paladin Bahamut. Tiamat lead her empire in a war attempting to conquer Bahamut's realm, with spaceships the size of continents and magitech weapons far more advanced than those wielded by humans, elves, or any other humanoid race. The dragons known in Argonessen were desperate, impoverished refugees who arrived in Argonessen after a perilous journey in which they ended up far from their intended destination, fleeing the scorched-planet campaign of destruction waged by Tiamat. When they fled, Bahamut was losing -- but was still in the fight. Since their arrival, they have lost all contact, and know not whether Tiamat ultimately triumphed, or was defeated, or whether the two empires remain locked in battle to this day. Today, few younger dragons know much about their distant origins, and many regard the empires of Tiamat and Bahamut was myths. Virtually no humanoids know of the far-flung origins of the dragons.
#5 illathid Dec 03, 2008 17:12:09	Yeah, even Eberron at it's darkest seems like a pleasant stroll through the park on a Sunday afternoon when compared to the overall aesthetic of WH40k. To see what I mean, read the following: Thirty-eight thousand years in the future, the mighty Imperium of Man has spread across the galaxy, to discover that the galaxy is a hell that would make Hieronymous Bosch **** himself in terror, and that it has a hell. From without, the Imperium is assailed by alien monsters from the depths of space, nightmare death-machines and soulless daemons; from within, treachery, heresy, mindless incompetence and the festering taint of Chaos threaten to tear it apart. Warhammer 40,000 is not a happy place. Rather than just being Darker And Edgier, it paints itself black and hurls itself over the edge. The Imperium of Man is an oppressive, stark, and downright miserable place to live in where, for far too many people, living isn't something to do until you die, but something to do until something comes around and kills you in an unbelievably horrible way - quite probably someone on your own side. The Messiah has been locked up on life support for the past ten millennia, laid low by his most beloved son, and an incomprehensibly vast Church Militant commits hourly atrocities in his name. The problem is, as bad as the Imperium is, the other forces in the galaxy are generally far, far worse. Death is about the best you can hope for against the vast majority of the other major players in the battlefields of the 41st Millennium. The basic premise of 40k, insofar as it can be summed up, is that of an eternal, impossibly vast conflict between a number of absurdly powerful genocidal, xenocidal and in one case omnicidal factions, with every single weapon, ideology and creative piece of nastiness imaginable turned up to eleven. The basic sidearm of a Space Marine is a fully automatic armour-piercing rocket-propelled grenade launcher. The Astronomican, a navigation aid, has the souls of thousands of psychic humans sacrificed to it every day, dying by inches to feed the machine. The faster-than-light travel used by most factions carries with it a good chance of being eaten by daemons. There are also chainsaw swords, gloves that crush tanks, mountain-sized daemonic walking battle cathedrals, tanks the size of small cities and warships that level continents, if not simply obliterating all life on an entire planet just to be sure. There is no time for peace, no respite, no forgiveness; there is only war. The 40k universe is a spectacularly brutal playground of tropes and horrible things taken to their absolute extreme. Entire planets with populations of billions are lost due to rounding errors in tax returns. Orders of capricious, fanatical, genetically engineered Super Soldier Knights Templar serve as the Imperium's special forces, while the trillions of soldiers in its regular armies take disregard for human life further than most people could believe possible. A futuristic space Inquisition ruthlessly hunts down anyone with even a hint of the taint of the heretic, the mutant, or the alien, and is backed up by legions of supercharged daemonhunting super soldiers and fanatical power-armoured battle nuns. The ancient and debased manipulator-race contrive wars that see billions dead; their depraved cousins cannot live without torturing numberless innocents to death in unimaginably horrible ways. There's a Bug Swarm trying to eat everything in the galaxy, a light-years wide hole in reality through which countless daemons and corrupted daemon-powered super-soldiers periodically attempt to destroy the universe, and an entire civilisation of undying Omnicidal Maniacs serving their star-god masters' desire to exterminate all living creatures, everything down to the last bacterium. Everywhere you go, there's the genetically-engineered survivor warrior species that's infesting every corner of the galaxy and cheerfully trying to kill everything else in the galaxy because it's literally hard-wired into their genetic code. The closest thing to the good guys you can find in this setting is a tiny alien empire sandwiched between all the other factions, and they have a thing for forcing new subjects into their empire through orbital bombardment, sterilisation, and concentration camps.
#6 Cyber-Dave Dec 04, 2008 2:14:07	Actually, the fact that you already seemed to be moving away from the 40K idea is partially what lead me to suggest ditching it entirely. I figured that since the link was already tenuous in your original post, snapping the link entirely could liberate the setting concept. I may not have read post #1 very closely, but I definitely picked up on the fact that you only saw tenuous links between WH40K and Eberron -- so by my logic, why not just say "Eberron in space" rather than Eberron 40K? Anyway, moving on -- one thing that's interesting in ECS is that Bahamut and Tiamat are constellations. What if you kept that for your Eberron 40K type setting, but decided that they correspond to a neighborhood of stars, sufficiently distant that no one in the neighborhood of Khorvaire, etc, has ever reached them -- perhaps even constellations of galaxies, rather than individual stars. Rather than just being constellations picked out by astronomers, they actually are near the original home of dragonkind -- the Tiamat constellation corresponding to a ruthless draconic empire lead by the evil dragon warlord Tiamat, the Bahamut constellation corresponding to the empire lead by the benevolent dragon paladin Bahamut. Tiamat lead her empire in a war attempting to conquer Bahamut's realm, with spaceships the size of continents and magitech weapons far more advanced than those wielded by humans, elves, or any other humanoid race. The dragons known in Argonessen were desperate, impoverished refugees who arrived in Argonessen after a perilous journey in which they ended up far from their intended destination, fleeing the scorched-planet campaign of destruction waged by Tiamat. When they fled, Bahamut was losing -- but was still in the fight. Since their arrival, they have lost all contact, and know not whether Tiamat ultimately triumphed, or was defeated, or whether the two empires remain locked in battle to this day. Today, few younger dragons know much about their distant origins, and many regard the empires of Tiamat and Bahamut was myths. Virtually no humanoids know of the far-flung origins of the dragons. Love your Tiamat Bahamut idea. I also changed the name of the thread to Eberron in Space for your benefit. :P
#7 Cyber-Dave Dec 04, 2008 2:20:29	Yeah, even Eberron at it's darkest seems like a pleasant stroll through the park on a Sunday afternoon when compared to the overall aesthetic of WH40k. To see what I mean, read the following: Again, this really has nothing to do with this thread. If you don't have something constructive to post, I'm not really interested in the "don't even bother trying" posts. Just stay away if you don't have anything constructive to add. Not to mention, if you turn the events of Eberrons past into galaxy spanning events, turn battles that destroyed cities into battles that destroyed planets, remove a little tolerance from the Church of the Silver flame, and note that the war to hunt and kill all lycanthropes spanned across star systems, and lets not forget Xoriat, the place beyond darkspace, and the genetic manipulative beings that populate this strange realm, which seem to be hardwired to do little more then destroy reality as the average citizain of the Khorvair galaxy knows it, you have a place that seems pretty much just as dark as anything in that quote you gave. The only "light" I am seeing to my Eberron in Space concept is the fact that its cultures are currently giving peace a try. Of course, everyone knows that peace is bound to fail sooner or later... In the end, a lot of what makes Warhammer 40k seem so dark is that when they took the Warhammer setting and transplanted it in space, the atrocities of Warhammers medieval ages were multiplied a thousand fold along with the space the galaxy occupies. Its not a war between nations, but a war between galaxies. Towns don't get wiped out, solar systems do. If you were to transplant Eberron into space you would get much the same effect. That being said, once again, all that interested me in 40k was the Aesthetic. The medieval looking power armor. The concept of "technomagic." The actual execution of my idea has nothing to do with 40k in any shape or form. Its all Eberron... just spread across a few galaxies in the universe instead of spread across a few continents on the planet. Technomagic in my Eberron in Space is not technology that seems like magic, its magic that seems like technology. Its still Eberron. Its just in space.
#8 illathid Dec 05, 2008 5:42:17	I think this is more a problem of terms than anything. I typically take the aesthetics of something to mean the total sensory and/or emotional content of that object, and when I think of the WH40K aesthetic I think of one thing, Despair. Thus, when I read your OP I thought your were talking more about the tone and flavor of WH40K, but after reading your other post it seems to me what your talking about is more the visual stylings of the setting (i.e. the way things look, rather than then the way things feel). So I apologize for misinterpreting what it was you were going for. However, I disagree with you on your assertion that it's only a matter of scale that changes the level of darkness. Eberron can be largely seen as a world moving forward, a world evolving. That evolution can be vicious at times, but it's still largely progressive in nature. This is mostly likely a result of the more pulp aspect of the setting, and while you can choose to not focus on that aspect, it's still there in the background. As you mention in your OP Eberron still has "points of light". WH40K on the other hand has no lights. The entire universe is in a state of decay, it isn't moving forward it's moving backwards. It is the galaxy wide equivalent of atavism. To quote Hobbes, in WH40k it really is the case that "the life of man [is] solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short”. As for your Eberron in space idea, I think it would be much more compelling if there was a more substantive change made to the setting, rather than just a change of scale and description. I have no idea what that change would actually be, but I'll keep watching this thread to see if you come up with anything.
#9 Gilo Dec 06, 2008 11:12:32	It could be interesting to regard house Lyrandar as the 'Terraforming' house making new planets habitable for humanoids. If Siberys is the ring that surrounds the galaxy, then maybe Khyber is some kind of singularity/blackhole in the center of the known galaxy. The demons could be trapped in the time dilation effect of the the singularity (like in Stargate episode #122 ) time moves slower for them then the rest of the galaxy which makes Khyber their prison. alternatively Khyber can be described as hyperspace (sub-space) handled like in movie "Babylon 5: Thirdspace". The Mournland is a meteor-field/nebula remnants of the explosion of the Cyre solar system: radioactive and full of strange spacial anomalies.
#10 Cyber-Dave Dec 06, 2008 11:45:42	It could be interesting to regard house Lyrandar as the 'Terraforming' house making new planets habitable for humanoids. If Siberys is the ring that surrounds the galaxy, then maybe Khyber is some kind of singularity/blackhole in the center of the known galaxy. The demons could be trapped in the time dilation effect of the the singularity (like in Stargate episode #122 ) time moves slower for them then the rest of the galaxy which makes Khyber their prison. I love these ideas.
#11 Gilo Dec 06, 2008 17:43:06	Another idea (tho its a bit more extreme) is to flavor the Dal Quor as cyberspace (virtual reality interstellar internet), the Quori/DD are evil AI existing only in the cyber realm. Riedra population are "The Matrix" victims. House Sivis as the network administrators, tho the Inspired (-Matrix's "Agent Smith" themed) are taking that role in the Sarlona system (Sarlona is behind a firewall). While House Thuranni are the hackers.
#12 Cyber-Dave Dec 06, 2008 18:11:54	Hmmmm. I would not use those ideas in that exact for, primarily because my intent is to still make the world work on a premise of magic-tech. However, perhaps a "cyberspace" network of magic-thinking machines might exist. This cyberspace could, perhaps, not be created but rather "found." As in, it is actually another plane of existence which exists due to sentient thought. The realms of dreams. Dal Quor. Which would indicate that "khyber" should actually be another plane of existence at all. Thinking in terms of khyber being "the center of the earth," I got to thinking about models of the universe as a 4 dimensional space. Kyber would be that inside of the universe, the 4th dimension. Speaking of darkening up Eberron, starships traveling at faster then light speeds would be forced to travel through that time and space, through Khyber. Perhaps faster then light interstellar travel itself might be a threat to the seals on Kyhber, and might potentially lead to the release of the bound demons. Going with this line of thought, the center of the universe is not Kyber itself, but the weakest space between the 3rd dimension and the 4th. The closer one gets to the center of the universe, the weaker the seal becomes, and the more chance that one might find a world warped by Khyber.
#13 PJammaGod Dec 06, 2008 22:05:13	Segue time... Pg 18 of Secrets of Sarlona talks about a strange "Dreamspace" that appears to be acting as a resonant field to reality, a sort of hyper-dream place that even the masters of the Dreaming Dark don't fully understand/comprehend. Perhaps that could be your "cyberspace", but in this case it's a dreamspace where everyone could effectively be "hacked" (since we all dream). And that's what would make the Warforged and the Kalashtar so unique, their inability to be dream-hacked (no sleep or no dreams).
#14 Gilo Dec 07, 2008 4:33:02	The Dragons sent the Quari as a computer-virus to the Xen'drik system to destroy the Giants. After Xen'drik cataclysmic system failure (Y2K), they rebooted the cyberspace servers which erased the AI entities memories. Edit: maybe its better to say that the Dragons opened a port on the Xen'drik firewall/router allowing the evil cyberspace AIs to invade Xen'drik's systems.