This player claimed that Eberron just seems too...explored. Too...bright. In contrast to the typical 4e
attitude of "points of light", Khorvaire just seems too civilized. Xen'drik and Argonnessen, while perfect
for "PoL" settings, just doesn't seem..."fantasy" enough for this player. I told her the basics of Eberron:
it's not traditional D&D. Did Lord of the Rings have airships, elves that worship their ancestors who still
roam the world, a continent dominated by alien overlords who possess willing hosts? Are dragons portrayed as
savage, uncivilized beasts?
We're both devout Eberron fans, but I pondered at what she said. I realize the Five Nations aren't as dangerous as, say,
Xen'drik, and for good reason. But if, say, a Brelish town came under siege, how long until Boranel knew about it? Would
the Crown respond or would the local militia be forced to fight for a good chunk of the battle?
My question might seem kind of hard to spot, so let me rephrase it as best as I can: how good, exactly, can Eberron
fit with a "Points of Light" setting if the entire world has been mapped (I.E. all 4 continents)?
I have a sub-question too. I'm very interested in our history, the rise of imperialism (Russia, Japan, China, USA, Europe, etc.)
. Like the race for Africa, America becoming an imperial power, and so on. I like the idea of one of the Five Nations launching
a colonization effort to establish some colonies on a largely unknown land. How would this fit in Eberron if all 4 continents
are already discovered, or at the very least, known?
And yes, if a town came under siege news would most likely reach the capitol, but that is not the same thing as them getting help, at least not anything more than a single investigating unit (maybe a few adventurers).
For example, say a town in central Breland is attacked by . . . whatever, trolls, it's not important. It's under siege, and the town is quite remote so it takes 2 days for word to reach the nearby fort. The fort itself is an interior post so it has a few dozen low level warriors used to collecting taxes and transporting prisoners. They could go to the aid of the town, but they would probably all die, accomplish nothing, and leave the rest of the area lawless and even more susceptible to attack. So they send a dispatch to the capital, which is dealing with Aundairan intrigues and Karrnathi sabre rattling and skirmishes on their border with Droaam, so they reinforce the fort but can't risk defending the village. Enter adventurers.
As for completely unexplored realms, there are quite a few good places for actual exploration of the unknown. As skrapsan says, there is Darguun. Droaam is a very exotic location brimming with the unexpected, both harmless and deadly. Talenta is a huge unfilled section of the map, wherein you can bury ancient cities and artifacts at your whim. Q'barra is vast stretches of unspoiled swampland that hides threats to civilization. The Mror holds are full of ancient underground dungeons. The Demon Wastes are brutally inhospitable and full of terrifying threats and the lure of fantastic power. The only worse place to be on the continent is probably the Mournland, where truly anything goes. Even the surviving four nations offer challenges: Karrnath is a gloomy realm where every town could be hiding secrets, Thrane
is a more ostensibly tame land where priests and nobles alike play high stakes games of intrigue, Aundair is constantly looking for advantages over its neighbors in the next war, and Breland deals with threats from Darguun and the Mournland regularly.
I've been rambling on for a while now, but hopefully I was helpful. Show your friend some of the things I've mentioned, and I don't see how she can still feel that there is no mystery left in the map of Eberron!
You can darken it up pretty easily (I'm planning to do this for my campaign), one way is to have the Last War's impact more far-reaching: whole towns have been destroyed by war, farmlands and villages burned, populations displaced. Going outside the large cities or away from important routes (lightning rails, etc.) and you run into a lawless realm where monsters, brigands, former soldiers, etc. are filling in the vacuum. Looking at a map of post-war Khorvair I can visualize lights at the major cities, glowing threads for the lightning rails, and encroaching darkness everywhere else.
I see this as the default setting. Sure, the war's effects aren't really nailed in the ECS as hard as they could be, but the point is made more than once that no one has escaped its impact. There are refugee communities, there are border towns whose populations have been greatly diminished, there are groups of deserters hiding out from the authorities -- that's all right there in the ECS. The point is that the continent of Khorvaire is quite literally war-torn: it's not pastoral, it's not safe, and the legitimate authorities don't necessarily have sway over all of their own lands. There are dangerous groups running around with questionable agendas -- the Order of the Emerald Claw, etc. -- there are fleets of pirates, there are Valenar raiders, there's the occasional incursion of aberrations spewing out of Khyber. There is a lot for adventurers to do without ever leaving the continent of Khorvaire.
Sure, Khorvaire seems civilized, but there are hundreds of towns that are tiny. They have as little contact with the world as in normal DnD settings, and it's no different if they're attacked than another town (they need to send a letter to a higher up in another town, which goes through 100 other processes to the point that royal response will be a year too late). Every setting has governments, Eberron's have just been fleshed out (since a good chunk of the setting is supposed to be intrigue, and what better than political intrigue.
I think I have to disagree with the view taken originally that Eberron is too 'bright' or civilised. In any setting you have places of civilisation, and its often the end result of a long period of peace or a attempt by an empire to subjugate the lands.
The Great War was 100 years of blood. Death was there, suffering was there and whole nations went to the wall due to the pride of their leadership in most cases.Some nations created monstrosities of death (ie undead) and now have to live with the consequences. To me that just dosnt seem portrayed, because and lets face it, gloomy pictures in rpg supplements dont tend to enhance the text. This is why I find esp with Eberron that the artwork portays the setting in perhaps the rose colored glasses variety.
Sharn is portayed as a place of staggering beauty, with towers rising above majestically, constructs of air moving people about etc. All very noble indeed. When you start reading though you find that there a lot more .. negative activities going on.
Being that we are visual creatures, I think many of us tend to notice the bright artwork and sorta link it to places in Eberron.
Interesting topic.
The Eldeen Reaches is nothing but woods and small agricultural communities.
The Shadow Marches is pretty much swamp, woods, and small villages with a high population of Orcs.
Droamm is a nation of friggen monsters.
Darguun is a nation of friggen Goblinoids.
Qbarra is pretty much all jungle.
Demon Wastes are exactly what the name suggests.
Mror Holds has most of Dwarven population on the far western border. Everything else is mountain terrain.
Mournlands... 'nuff said.
Lhazzar Principalities contains numerous islands run by pirates.
Valenar is desert, steppe, and jungle whose rulers are literally roaming warmongers.
Talenta Plains has nomadic tribesmen riding around on dinosaurs.
Heck, in all of these places, I wouldn't be surprised to be run out of town/attacked by the locals, only to be driven into the jaws of some monster lurking in the untamed wilderness. That's to say nothing of the roving mercenaries/bandits/tribes since these nations don't have much in the way a law enforcement agency capable of maintaining region wide stability. Well, Droaam's Gnolls might be capable of that... but they're Gnolls.
These are also the regions where you're going to find most of your ruins and relics from the age of Wyrms, Demons, and Monsters, as well as your paths to Khyber, where the Daelkyr and Rajahs lie imprisoned.
Also, regarding Xen'drik, it is the new world. Stormreach is the only "civilized" Khorvaire settlement on the continent. Xen'drik is pretty much all unexplored, and all the nations, as well as Sarlona, are interested in exploiting the region. Yes, the people of Khorvaire have more or less known about it for a while, it's only recently in Khorvaire's history that they've taken really serious interest in it. Just like how Europeans were familiar with Africa and Asia, and had traded with and traveled to those regions for thousands of years before the start of European colonialism in the 1400's.
However, I don't think that there is anything wrong with Eberron not being a Points of Light setting. It is possible to tell all kinds of stories in Eberron that you can't tell in a Points of Light setting: adventures involving cold war style espionage and political intrigue, for example, as well as pulp-style adventures that involve chasing people over vast distances via lightning rail and airship. I for one turn to Eberron to facilitate a different kind of experience than what I can get with a traditional PoL style homebrew campaign.
I actually think that Eberron is not really a true Points of Light setting due to its setting conceits. After all, Eberron is dominated by fairly powerful nation-states that have the ability to communicate quickly over vast distances and respond to emergencies with military force.
If Ashbound are attacking a village in the Eldeen, comunication is not going to be too quick, and there's definitely not going to be any rapid response by any powerful nation state. Same holds true of Cold Sun Lizard folk assaulting a community in Q'barra, or Pirates raiding a fishing village in the Lhazar Principalities, or a cult of the Dragon Below sacrificing people in the Shadow Marches to free a Daelkyr. Just to mention a few.
The dark areas of Khorvaire in a POL campaign would lie outside of Thrane/Karrnath/Breland/Aundair/Zilargo, and you don't have to go off continent.
If you're not in one of the main cities you're not too safe. If say a small villages is attacked, it will take days for help to arrive, even with a Orien messenger or even a Sivis sending station on hand. Discounting the town being on the lightning rail line, (which are 'lines of light' in themselves allowing safe passage) the town is screwed unless a group of heroes happens to be wandering by.
Eberron is a great setting, it was designed to fit this style of play before it became a named style of play. It also works great for mysteries/noir, and Pulpy Action/Adventure.
Most of the discussion on this thread has been about the issue of whether Eberron has the appropriate sea of darkness to be a PoL setting. What about the other side, though? What about, not the sea of darkness that surrounds the Points of Light, but the Points of Light themselves?
I think of PoL as being a bit like Diablo or Diablo II -- there's the base camp (Tristram, the Rogue Encampment, Lut Gholein, Kurast Docks, Winterhaven), a "Point of Light" which serves as a respite from adventure, and there's the outside, the "Sea of Darkness," which is where the adventure takes place.
In Diablo, you don't worry that Farnham might by handing information about you over to people who want you dead in exchange for money to support his drinking habit.
One question is whether Eberron has an appropriately dangerous, uncivilized sea of darkness to be a PoL setting. Another is whether it has appropriately safe, civilized towns. If Eberron isn't a 4e PoL setting, is that because it's too bright, or too dark?
If Eberron isn't a 4e PoL setting, is that because it's too bright, or too dark?
Best question in ages! Well maybe not ages, but quite some time at least...
There are two aspects to a Points of Light conceit. One is the sea of darkness of "the outside" -- the world filled with monstrosities and danger once you leave the gates. The other is the idea that civilization is safe, good, and orderly. (I don't mean that "civilization is safe" as in "civilization is not in danger." I mean "civilization is safe" as in "civilization is not dangerous."
Most of the discussion on this thread has been about the issue of whether Eberron has the appropriate sea of darkness to be a PoL setting. What about the other side, though? What about, not the sea of darkness that surrounds the Points of Light, but the Points of Light themselves?
I think of PoL as being a bit like Diablo or Diablo II -- there's the base camp (Tristram, the Rogue Encampment, Lut Gholein, Kurast Docks, Winterhaven), a "Point of Light" which serves as a respite from adventure, and there's the outside, the "Sea of Darkness," which is where the adventure takes place.
In Diablo, you don't worry that Farnam might by handing information about you over to people who want you dead in exchange for money to support his drinking habit.
One question is whether Eberron has an appropriately dangerous, uncivilized sea of darkness to be a PoL setting. Another is whether it has appropriately safe, civilized towns. If Eberron isn't a 4e PoL setting, is that because it's too bright, or too dark?
Maybe the points of light themselves are just smaller -- in Sharn, for instance, maybe it's just a single neighborhood or a local church where you know no one's out to get you and the inhabitants will watch your back.
In Diablo, you don't worry that Farnam might by handing information about you over to people who want you dead in exchange for money to support his drinking habit.
One question is whether Eberron has an appropriately dangerous, uncivilized sea of darkness to be a PoL setting. Another is whether it has appropriately safe, civilized towns. If Eberron isn't a 4e PoL setting, is that because it's too bright, or too dark?
I think that my solution to Diablo's "Sea of Darkness" issue could be applied in Eberron too - play around with the Brightness setting.
Well, all Khorvairian civilization is morally questionable - it's a noir setting so its very definition is that it's morally gray.
Eberron isn't a PoL setting because in Eberron, you could very well be siding with the Hobgoblins against a bunch of dangerous Cyran terrorists or Brelish spies!
That's what irks me most about Eberron. The demons and devils are all mixed up. This strays a lot from the core mechanic where all the demons and devils are unified with their respective realms. Now I'm not saying this should be changed, given Eberron's nature, but...still, it just ticks me the most.
This said, I agree with alex_ et JulesCarv that the main nations aren't really PoL. The response time in case of assault would probably be fast and efficient. On the others end, can you really trust your ally into those nations? Every frigging person as it s own interest and is ready to backstab you if that mean they could profit. So the 4 nations fail the PoL on both count, there is some security for the average populace but there is not really for the major players.
And why is it like that? In a PoL setting, your safety implie that you shut your mouth and bend together against the common foe that is the dangerous wilderness. When you have a little more safety, you can start to think of how you could benefit from political manoeuvering.
But then you have on Khorvaire itself many PoL, and here il copy/paste Alex_ excellent list:
The Eldeen Reaches is nothing but woods and small agricultural communities.
The Shadow Marches is pretty much swamp, woods, and small villages with a high population of Orcs.
Droamm is a nation of friggen monsters.
Darguun is a nation of friggen Goblinoids.
Qbarra is pretty much all jungle.
Demon Wastes are exactly what the name suggests.
Mror Holds has most of Dwarven population on the far western border. Everything else is mountain terrain.
Mournlands... 'nuff said.
Lhazzar Principalities contains numerous islands run by pirates.
Valenar is desert, steppe, and jungle whose rulers are literally roaming warmongers.
Talenta Plains has nomadic tribesmen riding around on dinosaurs.
In any of those place, you could play a PoL game. It's half the superficy of Khorvaire! As for an example, my own game is an expedition of Brelish colonist kick out of Droam during the Last War who reorganise themselves and now wish to take back their land. they're extended group of colonist is the only PoL in the darkness that is Droaam. I planned to perhaps start a movement from others Brelish colonist so that Droaam would start to be into a mix and match of PoL.
Then out of Khorvaire you have:
Aragonessen: Which is the mysterious island of the setting. For PC, it's a total point of darkness.
Xendrik: PoL, you have stormreach as a PoL and then Xendrik as a sea of darkness.
Sarlona: You have a big empire of nightmare monstruosity (literally) that are trying to impose unnatural uniformity on the land with scatter rebellious groups. How this is not PoL?
Well, I suppose what my friend (and myself) are kind of hesitant about is that in Eberron, although everything in DND has a place, it's apparently the ONLY place for said thing. Gnolls are only found in Droaam. Giants exist only on Xen'drik.
I couldn't disagree more. There ARE gnolls in Droaam, but there's gnolls in the Eldeen Reaches, demon-worshipping gnolls in the Demon Wastes, and if you want to have Gnolls in the King's Forest in Breland, no one's going to come in and stop you. At the very least, there's giants in Droaam - but there could be giants ANYWHERE, the descendants of explorers who traveled from Xen'drik long ago. And what about abeil? There's no defined place for them in Eberron, but you could put them in Argonnessen; you could make them strange creatures of Mordain the Fleshweaver; you could make them creations of the Mournland; you could drop them in Q'barra; or on and on.
What exists in Eberron exists as inspiration, not restriction. Gnolls have a strong defined culture in Droaam. But if you WANT gnolls in Valenar, arctic gnolls in the Frostfell, aberrant gnolls in Khyber, for Boldrei's sake PUT THEM THERE! As designers, our goal was to create a world where you could have OPTIONS - not to say "Because we've specifically only mentioned gnolls here that's the only place they can be used ever, period."
Likewise on the Balors, as I've said elsewhere (and recommended in the Savage Tide conversion notes), I personally have Khyber-spawned demons that use the same stats as their extraplanar cousins, but are bound to Eberron/Khyber instead of Fernia and Shavarath, and that as such are more purely bound to mortal fears than to concepts of fire or war.
The point of things having a place in Eberron is that they generally have MULTIPLE places. Nothing says where you can find centaurs. But I could see centaurs on the Talenta Plains, in Valenar, in the Eldeen Reaches, in the Syrkarn, in Xen'drik, and so on. There's LOTS of options; pick the one you prefer.
What Eberron DOES do is try to provide some sense of depth to the monsters it covers. It's not that Droaam is the only place that you can find gnolls in Eberron (in fact, IIRC, The Orb of Xoriat has a gnoll encounter in Aundair). But Droaam is a place where gnolls have a strong civilization that is very different from what you'd find from savage gnolls in the Demon Wastes. We haven't mentioned every other possible place where gnolls could be found, because if we pointed out the possible places for every monster in every nation the book would be ten times its size... and if you don't LIKE abeil, we don't want to force them on you. But the fact that we don't specifically discuss the presence of savage gnolls in the Demon Wastes shouldn't prevent you from having gnolls among the Carrion Tribes.
Beyond this, it's always been the case that the Five Nations claimed more land than they ever needed or explored. It's always been the idea that if you venture off the beaten trail, you can find a Dhakaani ruin that's been untouched for centuries. People have long complained about how tiny the population numbers are in comparison to the size of the nations, and the key point here has always been that the population is NOT evenly distributed - that there's a lot of open and wild space in the Five Nations (and elsewhere). And that's not to mention things like the Mournland (essentially a dungeon the size of a nation), Khyber (which stretches below the entire world), and the regions ranging from the Shadow Marches, Eldeen Reaches, and Q'barra to the true wilds of the Demon Wastes. Drop your PCs at a Tharashk outpost in the Demon Wastes, and see how bright it seems.
Beyond that, JulesCARV has hit the other important point - how bright are those bright points? What's the Sharn Watch done for you lately? Get into civilization, and you also run into the Aurum, the Dreaming Dark, the Lords of Dust, the Chamber (who can be just as bad as the LoD, or worse), power-hungry Dragonmarked barons, spies or assassins pursuing the goals of an enemy nation, violent insurgents supporting any number of causes (The Swords of Liberty, Dannel's Wrath, The Lord of Blades, etc, etc). Yes, it's CIVILIZED - but civilization is hardly a bright and cheerful thing in Eberron.
It's not the same model as core 4E. If it was, why bother using it in the first place? But it's not a peaceful utopia where the lightning rails run on time and the good guys always win. And those brightest points of light can often be the darkest parts of it.
For what it's worth, this is a subject I expect to be explored in far more detail in the 4E Eberron books than they were in the 3.5 books. Again, this isn't new; it's just that the scars of the war and other issues aren't always called out as clearly as they might be.
I do realize one thing though: Eberron doesn't seem to like newcomers to the DND universe. I had a group who were fully expecting D&D to be like, say Lord of the Rings or stereotypical fantasy. I'm not saying this is bad---I like different---but it wasn't until I decided to switch to Forgotten Realms for them that they were satisfied.
I'm reserving Eberron for the best, brightest gaming groups---and Forgotten Realms for newcomers to D&D, Realms fans, or just people who want a stereotypical fantasy setting.
I had a group who were fully expecting D&D to be like, say Lord of the Rings or stereotypical fantasy. I'm not saying this is bad---I like different---but it wasn't until I decided to switch to Forgotten Realms for them that they were satisfied.
Now that you mentioned it (not sure if there was a thread on this subject in the past), but did anyone attempted to convert Tolkin's LotR to Eberron? could be an interesting exercise:
Sauron - as an overlord Raja or maybe the DD.
is Aragorn next in line to Galifar throne or maybe dragonmarked heir.
Legolas Valenar / Undying solider.
Billbo and Sam are raiding a dinosaur?
Gandalf a member of the twelve.
Gollum - a Choker aberration...
Now that you mentioned it (not sure if there was a thread on this subject in the past), but did anyone attempted to convert Tolkin's LotR to Eberron? could be an interesting exercise:
Sauron - as an overlord Raja or maybe the DD.
is Aragorn next in line to Galifar throne or maybe dragonmarked heir.
Legolas Valenar / Undying solider.
Billbo and Sam are raiding a dinosaur?
Gandalf a member of the twelve.
Gollum - a Choker aberration...
That's a whole other thread, and not one I'd be willing to touch with an eleven-foot pole. The reason I like Eberron so much is that it is a setting that uses the same iconic D&D races but is as far away from a Middle Earth clone world as you can get and still stay in the fantasy genre.
Well thanks Keith. I had my doubts about this setting for a while, but I've come to appreciate it again thanks to this post. Hopefully I can install the same sense in my buddy :|
I do realize one thing though: Eberron doesn't seem to like newcomers to the DND universe. I had a group who were fully expecting D&D to be like, say Lord of the Rings or stereotypical fantasy. I'm not saying this is bad---I like different---but it wasn't until I decided to switch to Forgotten Realms for them that they were satisfied.
I'm reserving Eberron for the best, brightest gaming groups---and Forgotten Realms for newcomers to D&D, Realms fans, or just people who want a stereotypical fantasy setting.
You can run Eberron as stereotypical fantasy. There's tons of opportunities for dungeon crawls through Dhakaani ruins, explorations of ancient temples in Q'barra, battling through an evil wizard's keep in Karrnath, and even princess-stealing dragons if you so choose.
There's no need to get involved in the noir/political aspects of the setting if you don't want to.
I do realize one thing though: Eberron doesn't seem to like newcomers to the DND universe. I had a group who were fully expecting D&D to be like, say Lord of the Rings or stereotypical fantasy. I'm not saying this is bad---I like different---but it wasn't until I decided to switch to Forgotten Realms for them that they were satisfied.
In my experience, Eberron tends to attract...
1) Newer players who are new to fantasy, and aren't as dedicated to Tolkien or Forgotten Realms model (a lot of new fantasy is much more modern and breaks away from that), and...
2) Those who have been around the fantasy block a few times.
Simply tell people that Eberron is like D&D with a splash of Indiana Jones, Sin City, Pirates of the Caribbean, and Batman, and they seem to catch on fairly quickly. The tricky part, as with any campaign setting, is geting new players to actually understand facts about the world. Most are just ready to take their latest character and start playing- trying their darndest to distance them self from any of the world's events, cultures or institutions.
Considering the fine work that went into Eberron's world, this is where they tend to miss out.
Any suggestions as to how I can run a first-time DND campaign in Eberron? This is kind of off-topic, but might as well ask here. These players are completely new to the D&D genre, and I don't even know two of them (out of five), and with the third player being my cousin...I'm sort of lost.
Any suggestions as to how I can run a first-time DND campaign in Eberron? This is kind of off-topic, but might as well ask here. These players are completely new to the D&D genre, and I don't even know two of them (out of five), and with the third player being my cousin...I'm sort of lost.
You can use one of the oldest tricks in the book: Find a reason why the Characters know as little about the world as the players do. That way both of them can get to know the world together.
There are two major ways to accomplish that:
- All the characters suffer from amnesia(yeah its an overused plot-device and you shouldnt do it more than once in a group, but it can work once)
- All the characters grew up together in a very remote area of the world. The first couple of adventures is just in that village and then you introduce something to force them out into the rest of the world. I used this one for Eberron and it worked reasonably well.
You can use one of the oldest tricks in the book: Find a reason why the Characters know as little about the world as the players do. That way both of them can get to know the world together.
There are two major ways to accomplish that:
- All the characters suffer from amnesia(yeah its an overused plot-device and you shouldnt do it more than once in a group, but it can work once)
- All the characters grew up together in a very remote area of the world. The first couple of adventures is just in that village and then you introduce something to force them out into the rest of the world. I used this one for Eberron and it worked reasonably well.
Well, my cousin is a dragonborn, and...ehh...you know...dragonborn don't exist in Eberron.
Well, my cousin is a dragonborn, and...ehh...you know...dragonborn don't exist in Eberron.
2 possible ways to deal with this:
- You tell him: "Sorry, but you are not playing a dragonborn in this campaign because ..." => learn to say no to your players
- You find a way to make it work. If you start in a remote village he could be an abandoned child that had been taken in and raised by a human family(plothook), or an actual halfdragon beeing the son of a rogue dragon(plothook), or even the result of some mystical forces(he was conceived during a double solar eclipse or something).
My point is: if you want to make it work you can. If you dont want to learn to say no to your players sometimes. It helps you in the long run.
So following this model, there's not a lot of dragonborn around. Kalor wasn't part of a big dragonborn community. But he has a strong connection to history and the world and a clear goal to follow.
This also follows exactly the model given above. Raised in a remote village, Kalor knows about the Blood of Vol, and knows that the evil King Kaius III betrayed his father and the loyal knights of the Emerald Claw. But he knows little else.
Another option is to use something like Dolurrh's Dawn (from the DDI article a few months back). The heroes find themselves in a village in a forest in Droaam, with absolutely no idea of how they got there, or what lies beyond the forest. As suggested, they have to discover the world just as the players do. They DON'T know what House Lyrandar is. They have no idea if there are any major cities in this world, or who they can trust in those cities. And when some people see them, they say "By the Sovereigns! You're the spitting image of (famous historical figure they know nothing about)!" What does it mean? This is possible even with the dragonborn, who could be a reborn hero from a conflict in Aerenal or even the ancient wars against the demons of the first age.
My response: "Fantastic! We'll say you've been on Eberron for....oh....four years?"
The guy in my group who's ripping off Daine with the whole, "left Deneith to fight for Cyre" thing glared at me and accused the guy of having destroyed Cyre.
I just gave my best beatific smile.
I'd like to see them as a created race, but from Vol herself. It's an experiment she had started based on her own indistinct parentage which failed. She has moved on, and so have the Dragonborn.
In the Eberron 4e game i am in. we have 2 Dragonborn in the Party. Both are 'from' Argonessen, but the whole origin of characters really hasn't raised it's head much, apart from some party conflict over Nations.
As a player though, I must admit I do have some issues reconciling them to 3.5 Eberron.Of course my Firesoul Swordmage does not believe in 'Dragons' , so in character Im having a few issues with them too.
I'd like to see them as a created race, but from Vol herself. It's an experiment she had started based on her own indistinct parentage which failed. She has moved on, and so have the Dragonborn.
... You want it to literally be "a wizard did it." :P
Its purely my take on them, and its very unlikely that this would actually be the way they came into being
-Joni
Dragonborn don't exist in 3.5 Eberron.
I'd say that they might or might not exist, but if they do, it's as a template applied to an existing race, not a race in itself. (Admittedly, that particular bit of splatbook material doesn't flow as naturally into Eberron as some materials.)
Beyond this, it's always been the case that the Five Nations claimed more land than they ever needed or explored. It's always been the idea that if you venture off the beaten trail, you can find a Dhakaani ruin that's been untouched for centuries. People have long complained about how tiny the population numbers are in comparison to the size of the nations, and the key point here has always been that the population is NOT evenly distributed - that there's a lot of open and wild space in the Five Nations (and elsewhere).
It's actually very American - and I say this in a good way. The United States claimed the right to a lot of territory where no-one lived in the nineteenth century; Keith lives in Colorado, after all, so he's smack in the middle of that. Both Denver and Boulder were founded in 1858; think also of Deadwood, South Dakota, which was founded in 1876.
Western Breland, close to the border with Droaam, may be a lot like the American West. There are army forts, mining towns in the Graywall Mountains, ranchers, all sorts of small communities of people who - for one reason or another - have chosen to start a new life far from the press of civilisation.
Much of the Five Nations may be like that. Even centrally-located nations like Cyre and Thrane have or had isolated stretches, and we shouldn't forget that Aundair claimed what is now the Eldeen Reaches, Cyre claimed what is now Valenar, and Karrnath still has forts and possibly even settlements on the edges of the Talenta Plains.
I'd say that they might or might not exist, but if they do, it's as a template applied to an existing race, not a race in itself. (Admittedly, that particular bit of splatbook material doesn't flow as naturally into Eberron as some materials.)
Don't get me wrong. My point wasn't that Dragonborn COULD NOT exist in 3.5 Eberron, but rather that no canon explanation was given for them; anything can fit in Eberron if you want. However, the 4E ECS will have a place described.
Again, speaking to what I did on my own before I discussed the issue with James and the other 4E designers, I simply had Dragonborn in places where dragons had made an impact on the world. Thus you had poison-breathing dragonborn in the Shadow Marches (courtesy of Vharaak) and Lhazaar/Karrnath (survivors of the armies brought by the Emerald Claw in the last defense of Vol, fled to Khorvaire with the other allies of the fallen line); lightning-breathing dragonborn in Adar, brought to the mountains long ago by the fabled Storm Guardians; and acid-breathing dragonborn in Q'barra, brought to help the ancestors of Rhashaak defend Haka'Torvhak. You might find dragonborn of any stripe in the Ring of Storms in Xen'drik. Having dragonborn at a dragon graveyard is the same idea. Where dragons have had a major presence in the world, you might find dragonborn left behind.
Again, however, this was just my immediate action; this is not official in any way.
BLAAAARGH. SO HAAARD!
Do FRCS with anyone who recognizes the name "Aragorn" or "Legolas." They expect more traditional PoL fare and would be happiest with FR's tropes and setting pieces.
Simply tell people that Eberron is like D&D with a splash of Indiana Jones, Sin City, Pirates of the Caribbean, and Batman, and they seem to catch on fairly quickly. The tricky part, as with any campaign setting, is geting new players to actually understand facts about the world. Most are just ready to take their latest character and start playing- trying their darndest to distance them self from any of the world's events, cultures or institutions.
No matter what setting I GM, I tend to find ways to stick my players in the middle of those world events and institutions. "Adventurer" means a person who's got bad enough luck to stumble across, be initiated in, or just be one of the mysteries that world events revolve around and that draws the attention of the mighty and the scheming.
I'm now in a thorough battle inside me as to which campaign setting I should use for a noob group: Forgotten Realms or Eberron.
BLAAAARGH. SO HAAARD!
No, it's easy. Eberron. I mean, duh.
I think that my solution to Diablo's "Sea of Darkness" issue could be applied in Eberron too - play around with the Brightness setting.
Someone who 'gets it'.EVERY setting - even RL and DS - are as 'light' or 'dark' as the DM wishes to portray it to be. The setting books only give you an overview of what's going on - the 'flavor' needs to be applied by the DM.
When the adventurers come over the top of the hill, do they see a town of cheerful, cherub-like faces to great them? Or is the town in flames and the citizens hacked to pieces? Maybe the town was hit by plague, and rotting corpses liter the streets.
Or perhaps the townsfolk all look like tentacled horrors now, or they look perfectly human, but something even more insidious is going on, if the PCs care to notice the hush whispers as they walk by.
The DM decides what the players see and feel, NOT the campaign guides.
If people could just wrap their minds around this little concept, they wouldn't have had to nuke my setting of choice.
No, it's easy. Eberron. I mean, duh.
I could run Eberron and you'd think you were in the Realms, and I could also run FR and you'd think you were in Eb.
Like I said, it's the DM who makes the final call on flavor -anything found in either setting CAN be found in the other, if you look hard enough.
And Mystara had them both beat, having had it all first. ;)
@Scrinoverlord - Just use a homebrew with pieces of any of the settings you like - then you need not make a choice, and you won't have to worry about players knowing whats going on (as they do in published settings).
Another option is to use something like Dolurrh's Dawn (from the DDI article a few months back). The heroes find themselves in a village in a forest in Droaam,
Can anyone point me into which dragon/dungeon it was? Im currently trying to find the most info since my campaign is in Droaam.
EVERY setting - even RL and DS - are as 'light' or 'dark' as the DM wishes to portray it to be. The setting books only give you an overview of what's going on - the 'flavor' needs to be applied by the DM.
When the adventurers come over the top of the hill, do they see a town of cheerful, cherub-like faces to great them? Or is the town in flames and the citizens hacked to pieces? Maybe the town was hit by plague, and rotting corpses liter the streets.
Or perhaps the townsfolk all look like tentacled horrors now, or they look perfectly human, but something even more insidious is going on, if the PCs care to notice the hush whispers as they walk by.
The DM decides what the players see and feel, NOT the campaign guides.
If people could just wrap their minds around this little concept, they wouldn't have had to nuke my setting of choice.
I could run Eberron and you'd think you were in the Realms, and I could also run FR and you'd think you were in Eb.
Like I said, it's the DM who makes the final call on flavor -anything found in either setting CAN be found in the other, if you look hard enough.
And Mystara had them both beat, having had it all first. ;)
@Scrinoverlord - Just use a homebrew with pieces of any of the settings you like - then you need not make a choice, and you won't have to worry about players knowing whats going on (as they do in published settings).
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MARK?!??! POSTING...HERE?!?!?!?!
Do Eberron for people not very keyed into fantasy tropes - they're more likely to be familiar with noir themes and flicks.
I was personally surprised by just how unfamiliar people I played with were with the genres. "Pulp", "noir", "hard boiled detective fiction" were totally new terms that needed explanation.
Generally, you say "like Indiana Jones," and their faces tend to light up considerably. Or is that no longer applicable for all the new young 'uns?
That works for the pulp half of the equation. Noir isn't really vogue anymore, though, so it's harder to evoke contemporary examples.
New features with references to the noir theme are Miami Vice, Pulp Fiction, Moonlighting, Batman Begins, and Fight Club.
Little less pulp and a little more noir
The old 2e Masque of the Red Death campaign for the RL rules would be an EXCELLENT setting to use Noir in.
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MARK?!??! POSTING...HERE?!?!?!?!
I read MOST of the forums... I just don't usually post in others. ;)
And I like Eberron, a lot.... I just don't run it. If I could find someone in my area running an Eb game, I'd love to be a player in one.
That works for the pulp half of the equation. Noir isn't really vogue anymore, though, so it's harder to evoke contemporary examples.
The best approximation that I can think of to get people headed in the right direction is Sin City.
Problem is though, with Eberron, no matter where I start (I plan on using the Shadowfell Eberron conversion in eastern Karrnath), I have to give this group at least some history on the world, but a few of the players in this new group are...what's that syndrome for short attention span? Anyway, I...I mean, Eberron isn't as mashed up and crowded with epic NPCs and richly detailed regions (a bit too richly detailed) like the Realms are, but at the same time, you can't really understand what House Lyrandar is or what Karrnath is and what kind of country it is. I mean, I tried to give one of my players (who happens to be my cousin) the Eberron Player's Guide, as it sums up Eberron pretty well in simple, short words, but he later told me "oh, I read it", and upon inquiry of what Breland is, he said "..."
Any suggestions as to how I can run a first-time DND campaign in Eberron? This is kind of off-topic, but might as well ask here. These players are completely new to the D&D genre, and I don't even know two of them (out of five), and with the third player being my cousin...I'm sort of lost.
First off, don't think of the ECS or anything published for Eberron as being cage of information that you have to work within, think of it rather as the frame work to build off of. The books give you what the publishers felt best summed up their setting, but it is little more then a canvass that you then take to make your own.
Ok, here is how you best(IMO) introduce a group to Eberron if they have never played in it before, and are of little attention. firstly, let them decide what sort of game it is. Do they want to fight for a noble king and aid a nation to the crown of Galifar? Perhaps they could care less about politics and just want to explore. Find out which THEY want, and go from there.
Now, depending on what they want from the campaign, your place to start may vary greatly, but chances are you are going to want to start in some sort of village or town. Once you have the starting point you can put together the important things that the characters would need to know for living there. Ie, what Nation, who's the king, you get the point. the idea here is to only give them the meat and potatoes for information. Don't go too deep or spend too long on any one point.
When they make their characters, you tell them different ways that that concept could fit into Eberron, but let them choose what they end up with. Have hthem figure out a reason why they are all together.
then expand from there. Introduce knew things as the game progresses and answer questions about things as the players bring them up.
If they want to know what 'Noir' is, show them THIS. :D
The old 2e Masque of the Red Death campaign for the RL rules would be an EXCELLENT setting to use Noir in.
I read MOST of the forums... I just don't usually post in others. ;)
And I like Eberron, a lot.... I just don't run it. If I could find someone in my area running an Eb game, I'd love to be a player in one.
I am running a 4E EB game, but South Jersey is a tad far for ya right?
As to the point at hand... I seem to recall your loathing for diverging from canon Scrin, so I'd agree with MT's homebrew suggestion with various stuff tossed in that you like from other settings as probably working out best for your wants.
Also following up from what was said earlier, the best way to help a new group is to drop in some Jargon. If you have them meet perhaps some Dragonmarked people, then perhaps the npcs themselves can explain who they are and whats going on. THe more you involve them in the process, and they can ask dumb questions they want .. you only learn by asking.
I think the worst mistake you could make is by not dropping in things that are unique to Eberron. If it feels like a Railroad game, then you will get people getting off the train fairly quickly.
I am running a 4E EB game, but South Jersey is a tad far for ya right?
Yes, unfortunately.
I think you and I could have a blast.
Believe it or not, my wife had to go to a doctor there twice a week for a couple of months - I was leaving my house at 4AM to make a 9AM appointment!
Don't want to being doin that again... I even took a Greyhound back and forth once, when I had to leave her the car (she had to stay a few days). talk about interesting trips...
Anyhow, I may decide to do a 4e Eb campaign, if I like what I see. If I can't play in one, I might as well run one.
Besides... I, have a bad case of Choo-Choo envy. :P