Eberron Planar Cosmology in 4th ed: Opinions? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Eberron Planar Cosmology in 4th ed: Opinions?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
romulus_lonewolf
Jun 19, 2009 23:13:23 So, apparantly the new set-up for Planar Cosmology in 4e, according to the EPG, is as follows...

The Three Dragons represent the three layers of the Universe.
-Siberys, the Dragon Above, is the Astral Sea.
-Khyber, the Dragon Below, is the Elemental Chaos/Abyss.
-Eberron, the Dragon Between, is the World, the Feywild (Thelanis) and Shadowfell (Dolurrh) entertwined.

The other Planes are essentially regions of those three coming and going out of alignment with Eberron itself.

I'll admit, I think it's not as bad a change as there could've been. At least it's trying to merge the concepts together without using a Deus Ex Machina to explain the cosmology getting remodled.

Here's hoping the Campaign Guide contains more information on how to handle the planes.
#2
Montonius1
Jun 19, 2009 23:39:01 If you would like to see a potential lay-out of the new system please check out the Grand History of Eberron. It lays out the twelve planes of the original Eberron cosmology according to the new core cosmology, keeping all twelve of the original Eberron planes intact by combining them into the new planar geography of astral dominions and elemental realms. The existing evidence about the new cosmology indicates that this is the system settled upon in the ECG, only the exact placement may differ slightly.
#3
misterfido_dup
Jun 19, 2009 23:57:49 I hope they don't show a map of how the planes look, actually.

When I first read that, I imagined three world snakes intertwining, biting each other's tails while trying to strangle each other... (Edit: The waxing/waning dominions the shifting coils around Eberron's body...)

And I immediately fell in love.
#4
Nived
Jun 20, 2009 0:02:59 I'd relax till the ECS comes out, remember the EPG is general character knowledge, most characters aren't going to understand the workings of the planes, just like how it doesn't mention the Lords of Dust or the Aurum. So relax, we'll see in a month.
#5
misterfido_dup
Jun 20, 2009 0:03:34
I'd relax till the ECS comes out, remember the EPG is general character knowledge, most characters aren't going to understand the workings of the planes, just like how it doesn't mention the Lords of Dust or the Aurum. So relax, we'll see in a month.

And doesn't mention in the HISTORY section (though it does elsewhere) the age of demons.

EDIT: Incidentally, I wish the EPG at least had a list of the dominions... I mean, yeah, it's great that they have the three main ones and Xoriat listed, but it'd be nice if I didn't have to read out of the ECG to explain to the party what the world things of Dolurrh or Risia.

It could be waved off as "Well those planes are not common knowledge to people."

Except... having the planescape not be common knowledge is kind of depressing. Like, if I had a group of new players, if I spring Dal Quor on them, I don't want them going "Dal Quor? WTF is that mate?"

Unless I missed some index of the planes somewhere in the EPG =/
#6
Cyber-Dave
Jun 20, 2009 0:11:51
A
Except... having the planescape not be common knowledge is kind of depressing. Like, if I had a group of new players, if I spring Dal Quor on them, I don't want them going "Dal Quor? WTF is that mate?"

You know, its kind of funny, but that is exactly the reaction I expect the average person in Eberron would have to most of the realms, including Dal Quor. Most don't know what it is, and have no idea what its implications are. This is why most people in Eberron don't see the inspired for the threat they are...
#7
misterfido_dup
Jun 20, 2009 0:22:25
You know, its kind of funny, but that is exactly the reaction I expect the average person in Eberron would have to most of the realms, including Dal Quor. Most don't know what it is, and have no idea what its implications are. This is why most people in Eberron don't see the inspired for the threat they are...

Well, yeah. But I wanted a LITTLE blurb on each:

"Dal Quor is where your soul goes when you're asleep."
"Irian is the surface of the sun."
"Great heroes used to go to Shavarath to fight an eternal war."
"Syrania is where the sky comes from, and where angels and devas live."

Or... something. Just, name-drop everything with a brief blurb, is all I wanted, so that I didn't have to explain the brief blurbs MYSELF. Isn't that the point of a player's guide? I know I sound lazy, but... a blurb wouldn't have been so hard, hardly a paragraph... and I hate it when players say "Woah, there was a plane of battle? Why didn't we know about this?"

I want to be able to say "Because you didn't read that section carefully." rather than "Because I forgot to tell you" =P

After all, people might not know much of the planes--but they know its effects. When Shavarath touches the planes, storms of knives appear. Shouldn't the PCs... you know... be aware of this? =P
#8
Cyber-Dave
Jun 20, 2009 0:29:06 Honestly, I am not sure they should, no. People know about these effects. But I don't think the average citizen of Khorvair (spelling) would. Maybe Keith will come on here and tell me I am totally wrong, but I imagine that most people react to most of the coterminous effects with surprise. Its scholars in the universities that know what these effects signify, and when they will happen. Thus, I think that sort of information should not be present in the players guide. When, and if, it happens in a game, it is the players job to track down someone in the know to figure out what is going on, and the DMs job to provide information once a player attains it. I don't think that is the sort of thing that should be written down in the players guide at all...
#9
misterfido_dup
Jun 20, 2009 8:06:31 They might know from legends though--we know stories of Valhalla and Hades and the Dante's Hell, but a player joining Eberron knows nothing of those places, or their names. At the very least, somewhere it should have the list of the other planes as names, or something.

But hey, a little late for that now. I guess the DM will be in charge of dropping names =P
#10
Cyber-Dave
Jun 20, 2009 11:23:57
They might know from legends though--we know stories of Valhalla and Hades and the Dante's Hell, but a player joining Eberron knows nothing of those places, or their names. At the very least, somewhere it should have the list of the other planes as names, or something.

But hey, a little late for that now. I guess the DM will be in charge of dropping names =P

We know about Valhalla, Hades, and Dante's Hell. We are also one of the most educated societies. I really don't know if the average poor and uneducated Londoner in the 1700's (about analogues to Eberron's society) knew anything about such places. Somehow, if you went to some areas of the world today, and asked them what Valhalla was, I doubt they would be able to answer you. I think it makes sense that DM decides just what names a player does and doe snot know in Eberron. I think it makes sense that the average person in the world, and thus the average character in first level, knows only the very basic cosmological structure. I think it makes sense that further knowledge relies on the DMs fiat... but that is me.
#11
lyran
Jun 20, 2009 14:45:02
When I first read that, I imagined three world snakes intertwining, biting each other's tails while trying to strangle each other... (Edit: The waxing/waning dominions the shifting coils around Eberron's body...)

Could you explain in more detail?
#12
romulus_lonewolf
Jun 20, 2009 14:54:07 I'm now considering a slightly different approach, combining both the World Axis and the Orrery cosmological aspects..

The basic cosmos consists of Siberys the Astral Sea, Khyber the Elemental Chaos, and Eberron the world, with the various worlds and domains from the Orrery cosmology scattered across the three. But those are just the Primary planes, which are drawn to and away from Eberron by some strange force. Within the Astral Sea and the Elemental Chaos are many more domains and regions which do not orbit around Eberron, remaining static and more or less unchanging.

This lets us keep the Eberron Orrery, but expand it to include more elements from the Manual of the Planes, without contradicting anything.
#13
misterfido_dup
Jun 21, 2009 10:23:01
Could you explain in more detail?

Absolutely not.

To me, a D&D world where symbolism sometimes takes precedent over rationality, has a certain character available nowhere else.

The image I presented--three coiling world snakes, each biting each others' tails and wrapping around each others' 'necks'--is something I don't have an explanation for. I don't know why they exist, I don't know how they relate to the progenitor wyrms, I don't know how this would effect Eberron itself...

Just as the Mournland is a mystery, Xen'drik is a mystery, the 13th moon is a mystery... so would I expose the players to the idea of the three planes being three giant world-snakes coiling around each other, and leave the cause and implications of that a complete mystery.

Partially because it's an idea that is best left unexplained, and partially because I have no explanation or further elaboration: when I first read the plane description, that idea popped into my head, and I like it.
#14
Amaril
Jun 21, 2009 11:09:48 Hasn't the awareness and knowledge of the planes already been covered?
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebug/20041213a

In general, the people of Eberron know about the planes, the concepts they represent, and their general effects. I don't think 4e invalidates this.
#15
tallric_kruush
Jun 21, 2009 11:18:44
In general, the people of Eberron know about the planes, the concepts they represent, and their general effects. I don't think 4e invalidates this.

At the same time, I bet many a commoner scoffs at planar talk as nonsense or "concerns best left to wizards and pedants".

People who live near manifest zones, such as any Reachers who've heard of the Twilight Demesne, will be more likely to recognize the influence of the planes on the "real world lives" of Eberron's peoples. Likewise, those who've encountered creatures touched and/or tainted by the planes will likely have a more enlightened view than the Brelish farmer who has no tangible evidence of, nor any reason to care about, the influence of the planes.

This, like many things, will probably vary from NPC to NPC and region to region.
#16
Amaril
Jun 21, 2009 11:38:51
You know, its kind of funny, but that is exactly the reaction I expect the average person in Eberron would have to most of the realms, including Dal Quor. Most don't know what it is, and have no idea what its implications are. This is why most people in Eberron don't see the inspired for the threat they are...

You're mixing things a bit. I think most people do know the general effects of the planes, but they don't know about planar traits, detailed accounts of the creatures residing on them, or anything that would be more of scholarly pursuits.

The reasong they don't see the inspired for the threat they are is because there is literally zero knowledge among the people of Khorvaire that the inspired are actually quori, hence the idea of this quori "shadow war."

At the same time, I bet many a commoner scoffs at planar talk as nonsense or "concerns best left to wizards and pedants".

People who live near manifest zones, such as any Reachers who've heard of the Twilight Demesne, will be more likely to recognize the influence of the planes on the "real world lives" of Eberron's peoples. Likewise, those who've encountered creatures touched and/or tainted by the planes will likely have a more enlightened view than the Brelish farmer who has no tangible evidence of, nor any reason to care about, the influence of the planes.

This, like many things, will probably vary from NPC to NPC and region to region.

That's a fair point about NPCs that could be played out in your campaign easily enough, but most PCs should know the basics normally, or at least those with any knowledge or interest in magic.
#17
tallric_kruush
Jun 21, 2009 11:43:34
That's a fair point about NPCs that could be played out in your campaign easily enough, but most PCs should know the basics normally, or at least those with any knowledge or interest in magic.

Agreed. PCs aren't necessarily going to be the smartest people in Eberron (though they certainly can be), but they will frequently be or become the most worldly. They're also the ones that are going to learn more about the planes than most would ever care to know, and learn it the hard way, more often than not.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 romulus_lonewolf Jun 19, 2009 23:13:23	So, apparantly the new set-up for Planar Cosmology in 4e, according to the EPG, is as follows... The Three Dragons represent the three layers of the Universe. -Siberys, the Dragon Above, is the Astral Sea. -Khyber, the Dragon Below, is the Elemental Chaos/Abyss. -Eberron, the Dragon Between, is the World, the Feywild (Thelanis) and Shadowfell (Dolurrh) entertwined. The other Planes are essentially regions of those three coming and going out of alignment with Eberron itself. I'll admit, I think it's not as bad a change as there could've been. At least it's trying to merge the concepts together without using a Deus Ex Machina to explain the cosmology getting remodled. Here's hoping the Campaign Guide contains more information on how to handle the planes.
#2 Montonius1 Jun 19, 2009 23:39:01	If you would like to see a potential lay-out of the new system please check out the Grand History of Eberron. It lays out the twelve planes of the original Eberron cosmology according to the new core cosmology, keeping all twelve of the original Eberron planes intact by combining them into the new planar geography of astral dominions and elemental realms. The existing evidence about the new cosmology indicates that this is the system settled upon in the ECG, only the exact placement may differ slightly.
#3 misterfido_dup Jun 19, 2009 23:57:49	I hope they don't show a map of how the planes look, actually. When I first read that, I imagined three world snakes intertwining, biting each other's tails while trying to strangle each other... (Edit: The waxing/waning dominions the shifting coils around Eberron's body...) And I immediately fell in love.
#4 Nived Jun 20, 2009 0:02:59	I'd relax till the ECS comes out, remember the EPG is general character knowledge, most characters aren't going to understand the workings of the planes, just like how it doesn't mention the Lords of Dust or the Aurum. So relax, we'll see in a month.
#5 misterfido_dup Jun 20, 2009 0:03:34	I'd relax till the ECS comes out, remember the EPG is general character knowledge, most characters aren't going to understand the workings of the planes, just like how it doesn't mention the Lords of Dust or the Aurum. So relax, we'll see in a month. And doesn't mention in the HISTORY section (though it does elsewhere) the age of demons. EDIT: Incidentally, I wish the EPG at least had a list of the dominions... I mean, yeah, it's great that they have the three main ones and Xoriat listed, but it'd be nice if I didn't have to read out of the ECG to explain to the party what the world things of Dolurrh or Risia. It could be waved off as "Well those planes are not common knowledge to people." Except... having the planescape not be common knowledge is kind of depressing. Like, if I had a group of new players, if I spring Dal Quor on them, I don't want them going "Dal Quor? WTF is that mate?" Unless I missed some index of the planes somewhere in the EPG =/
#6 Cyber-Dave Jun 20, 2009 0:11:51	A Except... having the planescape not be common knowledge is kind of depressing. Like, if I had a group of new players, if I spring Dal Quor on them, I don't want them going "Dal Quor? WTF is that mate?" You know, its kind of funny, but that is exactly the reaction I expect the average person in Eberron would have to most of the realms, including Dal Quor. Most don't know what it is, and have no idea what its implications are. This is why most people in Eberron don't see the inspired for the threat they are...
#7 misterfido_dup Jun 20, 2009 0:22:25	You know, its kind of funny, but that is exactly the reaction I expect the average person in Eberron would have to most of the realms, including Dal Quor. Most don't know what it is, and have no idea what its implications are. This is why most people in Eberron don't see the inspired for the threat they are... Well, yeah. But I wanted a LITTLE blurb on each: "Dal Quor is where your soul goes when you're asleep." "Irian is the surface of the sun." "Great heroes used to go to Shavarath to fight an eternal war." "Syrania is where the sky comes from, and where angels and devas live." Or... something. Just, name-drop everything with a brief blurb, is all I wanted, so that I didn't have to explain the brief blurbs MYSELF. Isn't that the point of a player's guide? I know I sound lazy, but... a blurb wouldn't have been so hard, hardly a paragraph... and I hate it when players say "Woah, there was a plane of battle? Why didn't we know about this?" I want to be able to say "Because you didn't read that section carefully." rather than "Because I forgot to tell you" =P After all, people might not know much of the planes--but they know its effects. When Shavarath touches the planes, storms of knives appear. Shouldn't the PCs... you know... be aware of this? =P
#8 Cyber-Dave Jun 20, 2009 0:29:06	Honestly, I am not sure they should, no. People know about these effects. But I don't think the average citizen of Khorvair (spelling) would. Maybe Keith will come on here and tell me I am totally wrong, but I imagine that most people react to most of the coterminous effects with surprise. Its scholars in the universities that know what these effects signify, and when they will happen. Thus, I think that sort of information should not be present in the players guide. When, and if, it happens in a game, it is the players job to track down someone in the know to figure out what is going on, and the DMs job to provide information once a player attains it. I don't think that is the sort of thing that should be written down in the players guide at all...
#9 misterfido_dup Jun 20, 2009 8:06:31	They might know from legends though--we know stories of Valhalla and Hades and the Dante's Hell, but a player joining Eberron knows nothing of those places, or their names. At the very least, somewhere it should have the list of the other planes as names, or something. But hey, a little late for that now. I guess the DM will be in charge of dropping names =P
#10 Cyber-Dave Jun 20, 2009 11:23:57	They might know from legends though--we know stories of Valhalla and Hades and the Dante's Hell, but a player joining Eberron knows nothing of those places, or their names. At the very least, somewhere it should have the list of the other planes as names, or something. But hey, a little late for that now. I guess the DM will be in charge of dropping names =P We know about Valhalla, Hades, and Dante's Hell. We are also one of the most educated societies. I really don't know if the average poor and uneducated Londoner in the 1700's (about analogues to Eberron's society) knew anything about such places. Somehow, if you went to some areas of the world today, and asked them what Valhalla was, I doubt they would be able to answer you. I think it makes sense that DM decides just what names a player does and doe snot know in Eberron. I think it makes sense that the average person in the world, and thus the average character in first level, knows only the very basic cosmological structure. I think it makes sense that further knowledge relies on the DMs fiat... but that is me.
#11 lyran Jun 20, 2009 14:45:02	When I first read that, I imagined three world snakes intertwining, biting each other's tails while trying to strangle each other... (Edit: The waxing/waning dominions the shifting coils around Eberron's body...) Could you explain in more detail?
#12 romulus_lonewolf Jun 20, 2009 14:54:07	I'm now considering a slightly different approach, combining both the World Axis and the Orrery cosmological aspects.. The basic cosmos consists of Siberys the Astral Sea, Khyber the Elemental Chaos, and Eberron the world, with the various worlds and domains from the Orrery cosmology scattered across the three. But those are just the Primary planes, which are drawn to and away from Eberron by some strange force. Within the Astral Sea and the Elemental Chaos are many more domains and regions which do not orbit around Eberron, remaining static and more or less unchanging. This lets us keep the Eberron Orrery, but expand it to include more elements from the Manual of the Planes, without contradicting anything.
#13 misterfido_dup Jun 21, 2009 10:23:01	Could you explain in more detail? Absolutely not. To me, a D&D world where symbolism sometimes takes precedent over rationality, has a certain character available nowhere else. The image I presented--three coiling world snakes, each biting each others' tails and wrapping around each others' 'necks'--is something I don't have an explanation for. I don't know why they exist, I don't know how they relate to the progenitor wyrms, I don't know how this would effect Eberron itself... Just as the Mournland is a mystery, Xen'drik is a mystery, the 13th moon is a mystery... so would I expose the players to the idea of the three planes being three giant world-snakes coiling around each other, and leave the cause and implications of that a complete mystery. Partially because it's an idea that is best left unexplained, and partially because I have no explanation or further elaboration: when I first read the plane description, that idea popped into my head, and I like it.
#14 Amaril Jun 21, 2009 11:09:48	Hasn't the awareness and knowledge of the planes already been covered? http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebug/20041213a In general, the people of Eberron know about the planes, the concepts they represent, and their general effects. I don't think 4e invalidates this.
#15 tallric_kruush Jun 21, 2009 11:18:44	In general, the people of Eberron know about the planes, the concepts they represent, and their general effects. I don't think 4e invalidates this. At the same time, I bet many a commoner scoffs at planar talk as nonsense or "concerns best left to wizards and pedants". People who live near manifest zones, such as any Reachers who've heard of the Twilight Demesne, will be more likely to recognize the influence of the planes on the "real world lives" of Eberron's peoples. Likewise, those who've encountered creatures touched and/or tainted by the planes will likely have a more enlightened view than the Brelish farmer who has no tangible evidence of, nor any reason to care about, the influence of the planes. This, like many things, will probably vary from NPC to NPC and region to region.
#16 Amaril Jun 21, 2009 11:38:51	You know, its kind of funny, but that is exactly the reaction I expect the average person in Eberron would have to most of the realms, including Dal Quor. Most don't know what it is, and have no idea what its implications are. This is why most people in Eberron don't see the inspired for the threat they are... You're mixing things a bit. I think most people do know the general effects of the planes, but they don't know about planar traits, detailed accounts of the creatures residing on them, or anything that would be more of scholarly pursuits. The reasong they don't see the inspired for the threat they are is because there is literally zero knowledge among the people of Khorvaire that the inspired are actually quori, hence the idea of this quori "shadow war." At the same time, I bet many a commoner scoffs at planar talk as nonsense or "concerns best left to wizards and pedants". People who live near manifest zones, such as any Reachers who've heard of the Twilight Demesne, will be more likely to recognize the influence of the planes on the "real world lives" of Eberron's peoples. Likewise, those who've encountered creatures touched and/or tainted by the planes will likely have a more enlightened view than the Brelish farmer who has no tangible evidence of, nor any reason to care about, the influence of the planes. This, like many things, will probably vary from NPC to NPC and region to region. That's a fair point about NPCs that could be played out in your campaign easily enough, but most PCs should know the basics normally, or at least those with any knowledge or interest in magic.
#17 tallric_kruush Jun 21, 2009 11:43:34	That's a fair point about NPCs that could be played out in your campaign easily enough, but most PCs should know the basics normally, or at least those with any knowledge or interest in magic. Agreed. PCs aren't necessarily going to be the smartest people in Eberron (though they certainly can be), but they will frequently be or become the most worldly. They're also the ones that are going to learn more about the planes than most would ever care to know, and learn it the hard way, more often than not.