Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Amaril Mar 19, 2009 15:29:33	Would it be terribly inappropriate to discuss a Savage Worlds adaptation of Eberron in this forum? I didn't see anything in the CoC about it. In any case, I've been slowly but surely working on a conversion of Eberron for Savage Worlds. I'm mostly working on race templates (aka - racial stats), dragonmark Edges (similar to feats), and notes on how to capture the feel of particular Eberron game elements and concepts in Savage Worlds (e.g. - which Edges to take to create an "artficer" in Savage Worlds). I'm curious if anyone else here has played Savage Worlds converted or played a Savage Worlds version of Eberron For those of you who don't know what Savage Worlds is, you can download the Test Drive Rules from Pinaccle's web site, or you can download a PDF or purchase a hardcopy of the Explorer's Edition for $10. For what it's worth, I think that Eberron and Savage Worlds go together like peanut butter and jelly! Savage Worlds does a great job with pulp action RPG play. In fact, I can't help but feel that some of the things in 4e that make the GM's job easier were borrowed directly from Savage Worlds (e.g. - monster creation by adding abilities based on what you think they should have and minions who go down with one successful hit), and action points are almost directly influenced by wild die (roll your trait die and a d6 wild die, take the better result) and bennies (limited amount per session, each allowing you to reroll both your trait roll and wild die).
#2 robert4818 Mar 20, 2009 19:54:11	check out the Peginc forums. There is a guy over there doing a homebrew.
#3 Amaril Mar 20, 2009 23:52:04	Yeah, I have, and I was one of the guys doing a homebrew. The PEG forums are great for dealing with Savage Worlds rules, but I wanted to post here to tap into a deeper pool of Eberron knowledge and understanding. I was hoping someone would be interested enough to take a look at the thread, ask to take a look at what's been done so far, and comment on whether or not the conversion ideas retain the feel of certain Eberron concepts.
#4 robert4818 Mar 24, 2009 21:00:28	Yeah, I have, and I was one of the guys doing a homebrew. The PEG forums are great for dealing with Savage Worlds rules, but I wanted to post here to tap into a deeper pool of Eberron knowledge and understanding. I was hoping someone would be interested enough to take a look at the thread, ask to take a look at what's been done so far, and comment on whether or not the conversion ideas retain the feel of certain Eberron concepts. Ah. Well for me Eberron has never been about the rules, its been about the world. A conversion IMO would require simply race and dragonmarks. Nothing else in the world is so mechanically important that it would need to directly translated. At some point you'd have to translate a few characters over such as LOB and Vol, but really that would mainly involve building up NPC's that resembeled them instead of conversion.
#5 Amaril Mar 24, 2009 22:07:49	That's the approach I've taken so far. There are a few things I can still thinking that either needs conversion to the Savage Worlds rules or doesn't have a parallel in Savage Worlds at all. Savage Worlds vehicle rules still need to be applied to Eberron vehicles. Admittedly, I am not intimately familiar with those rules in Savage Worlds. I'm not even sure that it requires much effort. Binding outsiders in Eberron is dependent on D&D game mechanics (spells specifically), but I don't think there is an existing parallel in Savage Worlds. I could be wrong.
#6 robert4818 Mar 25, 2009 7:26:04	That's the approach I've taken so far. There are a few things I can still thinking that either needs conversion to the Savage Worlds rules or doesn't have a parallel in Savage Worlds at all. Savage Worlds vehicle rules still need to be applied to Eberron vehicles. Admittedly, I am not intimately familiar with those rules in Savage Worlds. I'm not even sure that it requires much effort. Binding outsiders in Eberron is dependent on D&D game mechanics (spells specifically), but I don't think there is an existing parallel in Savage Worlds. I could be wrong. Vehicles: Average speed can be found for the distance/day travelled. If its a land vehicle assume 8 - 12 hours of travel per day, if its a ship or airship assume 24 hours per day. Each mile per day is 0.1222222 yards per round for a 24 hour day. Each mile per day is 2.4444-3.6666 yards per round for an 8-12 hour day. Multiply those numbers by the miles per day then divide by 2 for squares, give a reasonable boost for top speed, and fudge some handling/acceleration numbers. Binding outsiders: The actual binding could just be a special application of the Ensnare power. If you want to simplify it enough, just say that the summoning is part of the trapping. Give it a large amount of PP requred for that casting, and allow coop rolls. That should handle it reasonably simple. Though in reality the characters shouldn't be making them, so the rules could be handled "off screen"
#7 Amaril Apr 01, 2009 12:47:01	So how would one convert vehicle section HP, hardness, and AC in D&D to toughness in Savage Worlds?
#8 robert4818 Apr 03, 2009 20:18:17	So how would one convert vehicle section HP, hardness, and AC in D&D to toughness in Savage Worlds? You are overcomplicating it IMO. For things like airships and such over, look in a few other SW books (I would suggest 50F, or Sundered skies). The Armor and Toughness of Ships and Airships should be similar as they are both wood. If you can't find that, find the information on normal wood, and adjust accordingly. If you want them to be hardier make the armor on it heavy armor. I think you are getting to bogged down in hard number conversions, Those numbers are only going to be apparent to you, not the players. Fudge them where appropriate. Directly convert only what you need to. The core book already has rules for ship armors, so use that as a guideline. Nobody will fault you (or even know) if you rip off say a galleon stats for an airship.
#9 Amaril Apr 09, 2009 13:56:36	I guess I might be, but I'm not thinking of hard number conversions. I was thinking in general terms for the sake of determining a ship's toughness. Unfortunately, I don't have access to those other settings, and I don't wish to spend money on them for the sake of such a small task.
#10 robert4818 Apr 09, 2009 21:21:07	I guess I might be, but I'm not thinking of hard number conversions. I was thinking in general terms for the sake of determining a ship's toughness. Unfortunately, I don't have access to those other settings, and I don't wish to spend money on them for the sake of such a small task. Look at the core book then, and browse the watercraft and aircraft section. It should give you a decent idea of where you'll want your stats to fall. I would personally recommend the stats for the Galleon or Galley.
#11 Amaril Apr 09, 2009 22:44:05	I did that for most of them, but there are some others that aren't as obvious. Here's what little bit I've accomplished so far. https://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=dds5cr44_32gdptk7gt&hl=en
#12 robert4818 Apr 10, 2009 7:13:59	Airship -- Galleon/Galley Elemental Land Cart -- SUV Lightning Rail -- use hardness/touhgness of a Galleon (as they are both incredibly tough) Stormship -- Unsure, Galleon Undersea Ship - Hydrofoil Wind Galleon -- Galleon Lhazaar Sea Galleon - Galleon Lyrandar Sailing Ship - Galley Orien Coach - Horse and Carraige Just figure out your own top speed and handling, perahps adjust the toughness/armor combination.
#13 Amaril Apr 10, 2009 7:15:11	Thanks!
#14 robert4818 Apr 10, 2009 18:19:36	Thanks! No problem. Just remember the KISS rule. KISS Keep It Simple Stupid. Following that concept will help relieve your headaches.
#15 cloud_divider Apr 12, 2009 23:04:04	I've been running a Savage Eberron campaign for a little over a year now. We originally started the campaign using 3.5 back in 2004-5, got to about 3rd or 4th level, and had to take a couple years' hiatus due to various work circumstances. We resumed play with the same players and characters converted over to Seasoned Rank characters in Savage Worlds. They're now up to Heroic Rank; which is probably vaguely equivalent to somewhere between 10th-13th level. The party consists of a Mithral Body warforged scout (Cyran), a Silver Flame Paladin (Thranish), a Kalashtar healing-focused psion (Brelish), and a Shifter Artificer (also Brelish). The PCs are primarily based out of Sharn, but they've spent most of the campaign traveling the countryside now, and have dealt with just about every one of the Eberron "Standard Villains" (the Inspired, the Cults of the Dragon Below/Daelkyr, the Lords of Dust, and now the Emerald Claw), plus loads and loads of more mundane politics (intrigues in Sharn's aristocracy, the Silver Flame church in Thrane and Sharn, the Divided House Cannith, the Trust, and a Darguun teetering on a tribal civil war). It's been running fantastically - even at 4th level, I was getting bogged down with the mechanical minutiae of building NPCs (I distinctly recall spending a couple hours building the major villain, a 6th level Inspired Psion, just so he could show up in-game for exactly one session before he met his end), and was spending less and less of my limited planning time on the plot. While I have story arcs - they're very open and somewhat sandboxy...which means I generally have to do /a lot/ of extra brainstorming to put enough interesting background elements into play for the PCs to interact with. As an example, the PCs came into the possession of a Dhakaani-era mummified goblin that they wanted to return (presumably for a reward) - and this was a total sidebar to where the current main arc is going - so I needed to figure out who the different "power players" in Rhukaan Draal were, how interested they were in the mummy, what they could stand to gain by gaining possession of the mummy, and what problems that'd cause for the other factions. Savage Worlds has been a godsend for me in this regard; I spend a tiny fraction of my limited prep time figuring out the game mechanics, and can instead spend that on brainstorming details on what's going on in the world around them. I even spent a couple hours last week sketching up Failin's Elemental Land Cart (from the Shadows of the Last War module) to make it much more distinctive (and the players really liked having the visualization). I don't want to repost it all here, but I made a fairly lengthy set of posts on RPGnet detailing my conversion notes. For the most part, the conversion was straightforward. The only bits that I really needed to think out were the new player races (Warforged, Kalashtar, Shifter, Changeling), how to handle Dragonmarks (it's an Edge, similar to but separate from an Arcane Background Edge), and Artificers. Here's a link to the RPGnet thread. Post #12 has the bulk of my conversion. EDIT: One more thing. Probably the biggest difficulty I've had is trying to sort out how to handle magic items. Unlike D&D, Savage Worlds doesn't really require an ever-expanding arsenal of magical doodads, and furthermore, I don't want the PCs with Arcane Backgrounds (a serious investment of their character "capital" via numerous Edges and Skill advances) getting overshadowed by a pocketful of wands and scrolls. Especially the Artificer, since basically his entire schtick is that he's got a pocketful of wands, scrolls, and other doohickeys. Also relevant to the discussion is that most Powers in Savage Worlds are much more potent than their approximate equivalents in d20. The Bolt power, for instance, is rather more like Lightning Bolt than Magic Missile, in terms of ultimate effect. As a for instance, a starting spellcaster with Bolt can dump most his entire power point reserve (6 of 10 points) into single absolutely overwhelming attack, and fling three (3) Bolts in a single turn that do 3d6 damage (which is plenty, and could easily one-shot a fairly tough Wildcard villain). Ditto for the Healing power - it's potentially far more effective than CLW, as it can take a Wildcard character from 3 wounds (near death) all the way back to full health, regardless of rank. So it's basically CLW through Heal, including Cure Poison/Disease and Lesser/Greater Restoration all-in-one. I suppose you could try for a thoroughly expanded spell list, for example breaking Bolt down into sub-powers (one 2d6 Bolt, +1 Bolt per Rank up to 3 Bolts max; Improved Bolt that does 3d6, has a minimum rank of Seasoned, and gains +1 Bolt per Rank up to 3 bolts max; etc.), but I think if you travel too far down that road, you'll lose some of the simple-fast nature of Savage Worlds. Also, Trappings are your friend. Trappings allow for the different spell variations (fire vs. lightning vs. cold/etc) without the fuss/muss of a million spells. Worth keeping this very much in mind. A +1 in Savage Worlds is roughly equivalent to a +2 in d20, in general. On a similar note, I've decided to go with the D&D pricings (goofy as they may be - they're no goofier than any other) for consistency.
#16 Amaril Apr 13, 2009 14:05:39	EDIT: One more thing. Probably the biggest difficulty I've had is trying to sort out how to handle magic items. Unlike D&D, Savage Worlds doesn't really require an ever-expanding arsenal of magical doodads, and furthermore, I don't want the PCs with Arcane Backgrounds (a serious investment of their character "capital" via numerous Edges and Skill advances) getting overshadowed by a pocketful of wands and scrolls. Especially the Artificer, since basically his entire schtick is that he's got a pocketful of wands, scrolls, and other doohickeys. I think the trick here is to realize that you don't need to worry about magic items because Savage Worlds doesn't depend on them as much. As such, PCs wouldn't and shouldn't be overshadowed by magic items. Also relevant to the discussion is that most Powers in Savage Worlds are much more potent than their approximate equivalents in d20. The Bolt power, for instance, is rather more like Lightning Bolt than Magic Missile, in terms of ultimate effect. As a for instance, a starting spellcaster with Bolt can dump most his entire power point reserve (6 of 10 points) into single absolutely overwhelming attack, and fling three (3) Bolts in a single turn that do 3d6 damage (which is plenty, and could easily one-shot a fairly tough Wildcard villain). Ditto for the Healing power - it's potentially far more effective than CLW, as it can take a Wildcard character from 3 wounds (near death) all the way back to full health, regardless of rank. So it's basically CLW through Heal, including Cure Poison/Disease and Lesser/Greater Restoration all-in-one. This is exactly why you need less magic items. Also consider that it adds to the verisimilitude of widespread low-level magic across Khorvaire, including the relative power that Savage Worlds powers offer the armies of The Last War. In fact, SW almost seems more appropriate for supporting such a setting. I suppose you could try for a thoroughly expanded spell list, for example breaking Bolt down into sub-powers (one 2d6 Bolt, +1 Bolt per Rank up to 3 Bolts max; Improved Bolt that does 3d6, has a minimum rank of Seasoned, and gains +1 Bolt per Rank up to 3 bolts max; etc.), but I think if you travel too far down that road, you'll lose some of the simple-fast nature of Savage Worlds. I would avoid this. The reason for the broad use of the powers in Savage Worlds is because of the investment required to obtain them. It's a relative KISS approach from which v3.5 D&D could have benefited. Did we really need 20 different spells that effectively do that same thing but with minute details changed? It's actually one of the things I like about the psionic powerpoint system. Get rid of the least, lesser, greater and mass duplications of spells and use points to augment them instead. Also, Trappings are your friend. Trappings allow for the different spell variations (fire vs. lightning vs. cold/etc) without the fuss/muss of a million spells. Worth keeping this very much in mind. Yes, I keep it in mind very much. In fact, I'm working with trappings to distinguish dragonmark abilities rather than duplicating the powers across the houses and aberrant marks.
#17 Amaril Apr 13, 2009 14:09:17	No problem. Just remember the KISS rule. KISS Keep It Simple Stupid. Following that concept will help relieve your headaches. I've pretty much followed this rule for everything else. For example, most conversions I've seen try to reinvent artificers whereas I simply use AB (Wierd Science) and Gadgeteer Edges.
#18 rauric Apr 13, 2009 17:58:05	Yeah Cloud DIvider, I had problems with making NPCs in 3.5. It was a huge waste of time. Perhaps that is why I am a big fan of 4E. It is pretty quick to whip up encounters and npcs. The older edition was a real hassle for me.
#19 Amaril Apr 13, 2009 18:22:00	Yeah Cloud DIvider, I had problems with making NPCs in 3.5. It was a huge waste of time. Perhaps that is why I am a big fan of 4E. It is pretty quick to whip up encounters and npcs. The older edition was a real hassle for me. Have you tried Savage Worlds? It's what most of 4e's NPC and monster design principles seem to be based off of. In my opinion, Savage Worlds does it far better and faster.
#20 rauric Apr 14, 2009 7:45:19	I was a playtester for a new Setting for the system. It was ok but I liked the old Deadlands system better. I will admit from what I saw you could make it work with SvW. IMO if I want to play Deadlands I would just use the old system (currently playing that game right now along with my 4E game). That is how I feel about D&D. After a few weeks of trail and error with the system I can now hammer out a quick 4E game within a shorter time than I could with 3E.
#21 cloud_divider Apr 15, 2009 21:36:19	I think the trick here is to realize that you don't need to worry about magic items because Savage Worlds doesn't depend on them as much. As such, PCs wouldn't and shouldn't be overshadowed by magic items. You're pretty much preaching to the choir on this one. I broach the subject, however, because pocketfuls of magical gewgaws is something that some players expect. So it's worth thinking about for that reason alone. I've gotten away with stalling the requesting players by ensuring that they're perpetually "broke" due to doing a lot of jobs on their own which involve travel, and they've tended to elect for speed (=airships) over cost. They're certainly not poor - they all have a couple thousand gp each, a sizeable "nest egg" for most people, but far from enough to shell out for big magic doodads. Most of the magic items I have introduced tend to be items that have just enough powerpoints to activate a single power (like Armor, Deflection, Boost Trait, or Smite) once a day or so. Adamantine weapons get a couple points of AP. I have had a number of "industrial" magic items, however. Siege Wands (roughly cannon-sized wands) have shown up as the equivalent of field artillery at military installations. "Miner's Lights", as a hands-free torch, made from gray ioun stones (the ones with no powers) that have had Continual Flame cast upon them. This is exactly why you need less magic items. Also consider that it adds to the verisimilitude of widespread low-level magic across Khorvaire, including the relative power that Savage Worlds powers offer the armies of The Last War. In fact, SW almost seems more appropriate for supporting such a setting. Absolutely. But even still, there's plenty of low-level magic items that the PCs should be able to get reasonably easy access to - low-level wands, scrolls, all of the "useful" magical-thingums-that-make-life-easier stuff. Basically all of those widgets all of Cannith's magewrights build all day. The problem is figuring out how to handle those without overshadowing the other PCs. For some, it's been somewhat easier - a CLW-equivalent wand/scroll/potion is cheap, only rolls 1d4 to find out how many Wounds it heals (minimum 1). I suppose you could remove the minimum, but you'd end up with the PCs wasting a lot of gold on something that doesn't have any mechanical effect... Maybe a CLW-equivalent allows a Natural Healing roll a little bit ahead of schedule. I would avoid this. The reason for the broad use of the powers in Savage Worlds is because of the investment required to obtain them. It's a relative KISS approach from which v3.5 D&D could have benefited. Did we really need 20 different spells that effectively do that same thing but with minute details changed? It's actually one of the things I like about the psionic powerpoint system. Get rid of the least, lesser, greater and mass duplications of spells and use points to augment them instead. Agreed. I said it was something you could do, not that it was something you should do. Yes, I keep it in mind very much. In fact, I'm working with trappings to distinguish dragonmark abilities rather than duplicating the powers across the houses and aberrant marks. I'll have to take a look at my notes - none of my players elected to have a Marked character, so it's never come up. Deneith, for example, get Armor (the +2 version, and 2 dedicated pp for it that recharge normally) for the Least Mark.