But lets face it, the pacts have a lot of fluff attached to them, so why don't we take a moment and analise the Eberronian adaptation of this important (and cool) aspect of one of the new core classes.
The core warlock has four pacts to choose from, this are my toughts on them:
-Feral: A pact make with a feral spirit from the Feywild. Another reason to have some sort of Feywild equivalent in Eberron. Not only will the Eladrin's feystep use this plane but also the Feypact warlock will (as in Misty step). What is already in the storyline of Eberron that could take the place of the Feral spirits with which a warlock makes his pacts?
-Infernal: This is a pact with the devils of the nine hells. In Eberron, the devils have really not have that much impact in the world because they are kind of busy fighting the demons and the archons in Shavarath. But that's very likely gonna change because both the warlock and the tieflings need them to matter a little more and because Shavarath is probably gonna get a good remake, since demons and archons are quite different for this edition.
-Shadowy: Pacting with spirits from the Shadowfell, including vestiges of long forgotten gods and dark entities. This one should (if posible) really be Khyber-themed. Long forgotten gods? Sounds like a Rahaj to me.
-Stars: Making a pact with the stars and the vacumm between them. I yet don't have any indicator of what this pact is really about but I'm guessing that it's got the best divinatory powers. But, in Eberron, the stars have a defined purpose: to tell of the moves of the planes and the prophecy. Perhaps, in Eberron you make a pact with the Ring of Siberis instead (or the moons) and get to use the powers from the stars pact.
I'm in favor of restricting certain powers for eberron and giving some others to this pacts, if apropiate.
Now, those were my toughts on 4E core pacts. But lets face it: those won't be the only warlock pacts. So why not thinking a little about Eberron-specific pacts for the warlock? Here is some ideas:
-Daelkyr: A pact with a lord of madness. Too crazy? Of course, that's the point.
-Dust: The lords of dust would like to give power in exchange of advancing their goal. This one could work if the shadowy is not rethemed as I proposed.
-Prophetic: Some warlocks could make pacts with the prophecy itself. Or perhaps with dragons. Whatever the case, the power of manipulating the future sounds very cool.
-Deathless: The undying court is a master of arcane magic and can grant powers in ways that only gods could.
-Fernian or Risian or Daan or some other plane...
Deathless sounds cool, in a way. Though don't Aerenal Clerics gets spells from Deathless? The pacts seem to be from sources that aren't Divine sources. Even Infernal is more about having devils teach you how to access magic from the Nine Hells, not about worshipping Asmodeus.
Though Fey pact could possibly be attached to the Deathless if Aerenal Elves become Eladrin... Naw, too much of a shoe-horn.
Daelkyr I like flat out. It sounds great. Though it actually sounds like Star pact (which is more about rolling darkness and bending reality than like twinkly star magic). Star Pact might even be attached to the Far Realm, which is the new D&D source of aberrations like the mindflayers.
Though don't Aerenal Clerics gets spells from Deathless?
Not really, Aerenal clerics get spells from their faith in the Undying Court, not from the Court itself.
Another reason to have some sort of Feywild equivalent in Eberron.
You mean like Thelanis?
I think you have some good ideas for Eberron pacts. What I would like to see are Eberron, Siberys, and Khyber pacts. I think pacts have to stay quite broad to work properly and to avoid a huge pile up of excess pacts.
I wouldn't be surprised if the infernal pact is just re-flavored to involve the Rakshasas. It fits the history and feel of Eberron far better than the fire and brimstone approach to fiends.
Feral? Shadowy? Where did those come from?
Feral is the Feypact. Shadowy is the pact with the long-death demon god.
Deathless sounds cool, in a way. Though don't Aerenal Clerics gets spells from Deathless? The pacts seem to be from sources that aren't Divine sources. Even Infernal is more about having devils teach you how to access magic from the Nine Hells, not about worshipping Asmodeus.
Though Fey pact could possibly be attached to the Deathless if Aerenal Elves become Eladrin... Naw, too much of a shoe-horn.
Nah, I don't like that idea. Sorry.
Daelkyr I like flat out. It sounds great. Though it actually sounds like Star pact (which is more about rolling darkness and bending reality than like twinkly star magic). Star Pact might even be attached to the Far Realm, which is the new D&D source of aberrations like the mindflayers.
Hey! Where are you getting that information of the starpact?
You mean like Thelanis?
That, my friend, is another threat.
I think you have some good ideas for Eberron pacts. What I would like to see are Eberron, Siberys, and Khyber pacts. I think pacts have to stay quite broad to work properly and to avoid a huge pile up of excess pacts.
I wouldn't be surprised if the infernal pact is just re-flavored to involve the Rakshasas. It fits the history and feel of Eberron far better than the fire and brimstone approach to fiends.
I think that they should not be too broad. In fact, I like them specific. It's just way more flavorful.
But, I do agree that we don't want a huge pile of excess pacts.
So, I suggest we choose about 3 pacts for eberron, but lets not do the too easy and general khyber-eberron-siberis. What? you now make a deal with eberron?
I think that we should choose from cooler, more specific (but not too much) pacts. The aerenal pact would really be awesome, it's already got the love for the arcane, the otherworldly patrons and the sinister side (I mean, this guys are dead, those who revere them paint like skeletons...)
I think that 4eberron can solve a lot of the adaptation problems by changing the perspective of the campaing instead of changing the world. We don't have to change eberron very much to adapt, we just have to change what we look the most in eberron. What about looking more into the Court? We could have a lot of political issues inside the group. It would be interesting to have warlocks as peons of the different counciliors to further their long goals.
While the one dealing with demons and long-dead gods it the Vestige.
Here is the general gist on each pact:
Fey: You can bargain with ancient fey spirits, primal forces from when the world was young. Though the world has forgotten the names of these now-buried fey, you haven't-and you sense their feral, primitive hunger as keenly as your own feelings.
Vestige: Immortality is not a guarantee of eternity, as forgotten demigods and ancient demons learned to their chagrin. Though these godlings are no longer worshipped, they retain a vestige of their deific might, and that's power they'll trade as part of their own long-term plans.
Star: Some say there is a cold malice that lives and watches us all from the darkness between the stars, and by tracking the progress of the stars across the sky, we can attain a glimpse of this mystery presence. You've learned the secret names of the stars and can tap into whatever's up there... waiting."
Infernal: Scheming devils from the dawn of time created one of the most seductive paths to power; in fact, this pact may be the foundation of the warlock's art. Asmodeus may have been expunged these devils from the Infernal Rolls, but he didn't bury their perilous secrets deeply enough. You may be among those who have unearthed the dark lore of these infernals and entered into a power-bargain with their shades.
In Eberron, the divine power source is a matter of faith: if you have the right kind of faith in your shoes, they'll grant you spells and turning abilities, and a whole panoply of interesting class features as an adept, cleric, favored soul, paladin, or what-have-you.
The gods are worshiped as such because it's actually easier to have that kind of faith in a mythic being whose origins are lost to pre-history than it is to have that kind of faith in something you saw being knocked together by the village cobbler.
The things that warlocks make pacts with, on the other hand, are demonstrably real in ways that the gods—and recall that we speak here of Eberron, and not the default setting—are not. For one thing, it's possible to make—and presumably break—pacts with them. [1]
Furthermore, the warlock pacts seem to be generally with things that have been marginalized from the mainstream of their kind, e.g. mostly forgotten gods or fey powers, or infernal powers whose names are "expunged" from the rolls, and the like.
It's possible that the Star pact—if it does carry the touch of the Far Realm [2]—will serve for what denizens of Eberron typically think of as the Dragon Below. If not, a Dragon Below pact will certainly be included in the 4e Eberron Campaign Setting.
On the other hand, the Undying Court, the Prophecy, and the Dragon Gods seem ill-suited to this sort of treatment, since they tend not to have the same air of marginalization or forgotten-ness that characterizes the things with which warlocks make pacts.
The key thing to remember is that pacts provide arcane power, not divine, and that the arcane in Eberron is more often a matter of engineering than religion. Many societies in Eberron—most notably the Dhakaani—have regarded even their bards from the perspective of engineering: bards with were the builders of most of the legendary or magical items used by the Empire in its heyday. Warlocks, as a mainstream class, are no different: it is with some confidence, for example that we expect to see warlocks as researchers at Arcanix.
It's possible that other than the Dragon Below, [3] there are other pacts that may be unique to Eberron, revolving around other powers that choose arcane vessels. Some of these will slide into religious territory: the shininess of a Silver Flame warlock will almost certainly be too attractive to be bypassed. It's possible to work up a death-related pact that isn't quite Vestige or Infernal, perhaps something related to the Qabalrin. It may also be possible to work up some sort of Dream pact based on the ancient, i.e. pre-Dreaming Dark, quori, though this might be seen as "poaching" on 4e psionic capabilities. Given the classical importance of dragons to the setting, and the fondness of Wizards of the Coast's customers for dragon themes, it is also probable that someone will work up a Dragon pact.
But, most of the powers will fit neatly into the pacts already described. The Vestige pact covers most of the powers based on classical civilization such as the Giants in Xen'drik or the humans in Sarlona, Infernal covers most of what one would want of the Rajahs and their ilk, or the fiends of Fernia, Risia, and Shavarath. Fey covers the various ancient spirits of Eberron, Thelanis, and Lamannia, and even some aspects of the other planes. Star—well, we don't know much about Star, yet.
What is marvelous about all of this is that—unlike 4e itself—it is by no means too late to have an influence on the matter. We can communicate our interests to Hellcow and other authors presumed to be working on the 4e Eberron Campaign Setting and talk through what may or may not happen. It's a process into which we should look forward to participating.
—Siran Dunmorgan
[1] It's odd to think of warlocks as those who make pacts, since the term itself appears to be derive from the Old English wærloga, meaning "oath-breaker."
[2] "When the stars were right, They could plunge from world to world through the sky; but when the stars were wrong, They could not live. But although They no longer lived, They would never really die." —The Old Gent of Providence
[3] Hellcow long ago wrote that he thought of warlocks as the principal arcanists of the cults of the Dragon Below.
Here is what I understand about the pacts:
Fey - This pact was made with a powerful unpridictable Fey creature for arcane knowledge and power.
[INDENT]Possible Eberron Sources: The Undying Court, a member of a Fey Court in Thelanis, The Traveler[/indent]
Shadowy - This pact was made with a being linked to the death and the shadow world.
[INDENT]PES: The Keeper, a Rahaj with mastery over death, Khyber[/INDENT]
Stars - A pact a being between/beyond the stars.
[INDENT]PES: Khyber, Daelkyr[/INDENT]
Infernal - This pact was made with a devil or devil-like being.
[INDENT]PES: The Demon in the Silver Flame, Rakshasas Rahaj[/INDENT]
I don't know where the idea that the beings that Warlocks make pacts with are forgotten. It may just be some posters have misinterpreted the comment that the Warlock took the Binder's fluff.
I believe that sigil_beguiler was quoting the Races & Classes preview book in his descriptions of the pacts, above, which use the term "forgotten" to describe the powers underlying both Fey and Vestige pacts, the term "expunged" to describe the names of the powers responsible for the Infernal pact, and "secret" to describe the powers responsible for the Star pact.
Matters may have changed in the final version of the class description, but the idea that the things warlocks make pacts with are either forgotten or decidedly not part of the mainstream of their kind is part of the Races & Classes preview of the Warlock class, and is not a misinterpretation.
Here is what I understand about the pacts:
Fey - This pact was made with a powerful unpredictable Fey creature for arcane knowledge and power.
[INDENT]Possible Eberron Sources: The Undying Court, a member of a Fey Court in Thelanis, The Traveler[/indent]
Shadowy - This pact was made with a being linked to the death and the shadow world.
[INDENT]PES: The Keeper, a Rajah with mastery over death, Khyber[/INDENT]
Stars - A pact with a being between/beyond the stars.
[INDENT]PES: Khyber, Daelkyr[/INDENT]
Infernal - This pact was made with a devil or devil-like being.
[INDENT]PES: The Demon in the Silver Flame, Rakshasa Rajah[/INDENT]
The issue with using Khyber, the Keeper, or the Traveller as the basis of a pact is that, well, there's nothing there to make a pact with. Part of the idea of the gods in Eberron, particularly the Sovereign Host and the Dark Six, is that they have no active part in the world: making a pact with one suggests that they can enter into pacts, when they don't even respond to commune spells. [1]
Entering into pacts with various Rajahs, and daelkyr, on the other hand, makes perfect sense. The Rajahs and the daelkyr were custom-made for this role.
Warlocks entering into pacts with the Undying Court, though… that seems more problematic. There is no obvious reason why it couldn't happen, but warlock-as-servant-of-divine-powers seems to undermine much of the flavor of the class, and it's odd to imagine that the Undying Court would lend their power to a being they could not control.
Make your case, though: I'm interested to hear your ideas about how this would work out in practice.
—Siran Dunmorgan
[1] Not mind you, that this isn't interesting in its own right: the idea that the gods are more responsive to warlocks than they are to their own clerics has a rather charming irony.
I believe that sigil_beguiler was quoting the Races & Classes preview book in his descriptions of the pacts, above, which use the term "forgotten" to describe the powers underlying both Fey and Vestige pacts, the term "expunged" to describe the names of the powers responsible for the Infernal pact, and "secret" to describe the powers responsible for the Star pact.
Yup, typed word for word the same as the book.
Off topic:
it's not odd to have the warlock as the guy who makes pacts. wærloga might mean "oath-breaker", but warlock also means "male witch". And there's a definition of witch (mainly medieval) which mean "a women who has deals with the devil"
Ok, a dream pact with the ancient, good quori spirits is just awesome.
I think that eberron could easily accept a new power source: artifice. The one of the artificer and other artificer-like classes. They didn't really used arcane nor divine magic.
If that was true, then warlocks wouldn't have to be researchers. And in anycase I just don't see them in that.
We can make a deathless pact work if we give more freedom to the counciliors. If they each have their own agenda and there's differences in the court itself, then I don't see why it would be too crazy to give some individual arcane powers. An individual councilior couldn't do this with a cleric since the clerics serve the Court as a whole. But a warlock can pay the price for the power.
I'm not sure if you can adapt the infernal pact to rakshasas. They are not devils and certaintly some of the powers might be too odd to be given by a shapeshifting, backwards-handed, tigerheaded spirit of evil.
Ok, a dream pact with the ancient, good quori spirits is just awesome.
Thanks!
I think that Eberron could easily accept a new power source: artifice. The one of the artificer and other artificer-like classes.
They don't really use either arcane or divine magic.
If that were true, then warlocks wouldn't have to be researchers. And, in any case, I just don't see them in that.
We can make a deathless pact work if we give more freedom to the counciliors. If they each have their own agenda and there are differences in the Court itself, then I don't see why it would be too crazy to give some individual arcane powers. An individual councilior couldn't do this with a cleric since the clerics serve the Court as a whole. But a warlock can pay the price for the power.
I'm not sure if you can adapt the Infernal pact to rakshasas. They are not devils and certainly, some of the powers might be too odd to be given by a shapeshifting, backwards-handed, tigerheaded spirit of evil.
I'm not sure about the Artifice power source: it's an interesting idea, though, and I'm certain to spend some time mulling it over.
You make a good point about the possibility of the Deathless pact. It changes the dynamic of the warlock class somewhat to have an active patron, but I'm not sure that's a bad thing: there are some role-playing opportunities there. The only issue is that, as I mentioned before, it starts to slide the Warlock into religious territory, something the class historically avoids.
And in the rakshasa case, we're not suggesting that the power is granted by a pact with rakshsas, but with the Rajahs, the beings worshiped and served by the rakshasas—the Rajahs' power is more varied, and far, far greater.
—Siran Dunmorgan
Fey Pact = Pact with (the beings of) Thelanis...
Infernal Pact = Pact with the Rajah's...
Star Pact = Pact with (the beings of) Xoriat (the Dealkyr)...
Shadow Pact = Pact with (the beings of) Mabar (plane of endless night)...
Feywild already pretty much equals Thelanis, and the new Shadowfell plane already pretty much equals Mabar, and the place described as the home of the beings in under the Star pact already pretty much closely resembles Xoriat. The infernal/rajah connection should be obvious as well.
Personally, I think the Warlock pacts all already have strong existing parallels in the Eberronian setting.
Fey Pact = Pact with (the beings of) Thelanis...
Infernal Pact = Pact with the Rajah's...
Star Pact = Pact with (the beings of) Xoriat (the Dealkyr)...
Shadow Pact = Pact with (the beings of) Mabar (plane of endless night)...
Feywild already pretty much equals Thelanis, and the new Shadowfell plane already pretty much equals Mabar, and the place described as the home of the beings in under the Star pact already pretty much closely resembles Xoriat. The infernal/rajah connection should be obvious as well.
Well, of course! Eberron doesn't try to replace the rules, but it often supplements them. Just as Eberron added a new base class and several new races to version 3.5, it'll likely add a bit—with uniquely Eberron flavor—to 4e.
That's what we're discussing.
Also, a couple of you have mentioned a Shadow pact; where is the information about this coming from? I'd like to read up on it for myself.
And, finally, Cyber-Dave; what entities do you think of as underlying the Vestige pact in Eberron? For that matter, is there a place for it in Eberron?
Let's keep the discussion going!
—Siran Dunmorgan
Well, of course! Eberron doesn't try to replace the rules, but it often supplements them. Just as Eberron added a new base class and several new races to version 3.5, it'll likely add a bit—with uniquely Eberron flavor—to 4e.
Adding a new Pact could possibly be something Eberron does, but I doubt we'll see it. It appears that pacts are going to be pretty substantial rules elements, so it would eat up a lot of space in the book. Most of the sample warlock's abilities were unique to the Fey pact. I think were much more likely to see new Pacts in an Arcane Power sourcebook.
Also, a couple of you have mentioned a Shadow pact; where is the information about this coming from? I'd like to read up on it for myself.
Shadow pacts have been mentioned in Races and Classes as well as the Your Scary New Friend article in Dragon. Not much information has been revealed yet AFAIK.
And, finally, Cyber-Dave; what entities do you think of as underlying the Vestige pact in Eberron? For that matter, is there a place for it in Eberron?
Let's keep the discussion going!
—Siran Dunmorgan
I haven't heard Vestige mentioned since Races and Classes, so I'm not confident it made the cut for the Player's Handbook. However, that doesn't mean we won't see it before the 4e ECS comes out, but speculation based on how Vestige pacts work may have to wait.
Adding a new Pact could possibly be something Eberron does, but I doubt we'll see it. It appears that pacts are going to be pretty substantial rules elements, so it would eat up a lot of space in the book. Most of the sample warlock's abilities were unique to the Fey pact. I think were much more likely to see new Pacts in an Arcane Power sourcebook.
Shadow pacts have been mentioned in Races and Classes as well as the Your Scary New Friend article in Dragon. Not much information has been revealed yet AFAIK.
I haven't heard Vestige mentioned since Races and Classes, so I'm not confident it made the cut for the Player's Handbook. However, that doesn't mean we won't see it before the 4e ECS comes out, but speculation based on how Vestige pacts work may have to wait.
Hmm… Races & Classes is more recent than "Your Scary New Friend;" I'd be inclined to take its descriptions as more authoritative—not necessarily the last word, of course, but more so than the Dragon article, and I don't see any references to Shadow pacts in Races & Classes; the pact descriptions found there are the ones quoted by sigil_beguiler, above.
That said, I note that the original Eberron Campaign Setting introduced quite a lot of "substantial rules elements" in its own right, including, as noted, an entirely new class—and its attendant spells, or, rather, infusions—several new races, and an Action Point system, not to mention incorporating an existing mechanical system for possession by extraplanar entities. Providing support for a new pact seems like exactly the sort of thing Eberron's authors would do to enhance the interaction of the setting with the rules of the game.
With respect to which new pacts, well, we're really just playing with ideas.
Personally, I hold that there are two pacts that would be seriously examined by the authors: if the Star pact is not amenable for use by the Dragon Below, then an explicit Dragon Below pact will be created for Eberron. Further, there is an "Ooh! Shiny!" quality about the idea of a Silver Flame pact that will probably prove irresistible to the developers.
—Siran Dunmorgan
Fey can go with Thelanis. Infernal with Rajahs.
Vestige is tricky, because it's mostly vaporware right now. We'll probably have to see what the powers are like to make any good predictions about Eberron translations.
Hmm… Races & Classes is more recent than "Your Scary New Friend;" I'd be inclined to take its descriptions as more authoritative—not necessarily the last word, of course, but more so than the Dragon article, and I don't see any references to Shadow pacts in Races & Classes; the pact descriptions found there are the ones quoted by sigil_beguiler, above.
Races & Classes may have come out in December, but it was finalized long before that. I'm inclined to believe that "Your Scary New Friend" was in fact more recently written.
For instance, Wizard implements changed from the time of writing for R&C and when the Wizard Implements article came out. Staves are no longer for rays and cones.
The Vestige is new to me. Is it tied to Legendary heros or beings?