Does anyone have any ideas for transforming the Houses into something more like megacorps from Shadowrun? I still want it to feel like Eberron, of course, but I want the various guilds to be a lot more terrifying than they are right now.
What do you do in your games? What sources of inspiration do you use when you run the Houses?
1) Internal conflict - the Houses can be much unrulier than they want to look like from outside. Powermongering, animosities, deep grudges, etc.
2) Striving and competing for sources - be it mundane materials, dragonshards or magic.
3) Striving for knowledge, spying on each other and their activities. May be not direct sabotage but espionage certainly. Who knows what I can use from the portfolio of the others?
4) Political alignment - the houses claim to be neutral and all but come on... They consist of people and people have motivations.
5) The influence from outside - is there really nobody else out there interested in the power the Houses have?
6) The 'marks are handy business tools, right? Wrong! They are part of the Prophecy in the first line. And that means trouble...
Plus, there's always points where the stated services of each house clash. Agents of House Phiarlan infiltrating a tower secured by House Medani, Deneith mercenaries guarding against Thuranni attacks, Jorasco struggling to deal with the injuries dealt by an esoteric Cannith-made weapon, etc.
You are right that the Houses themselves are a bit inert (if not sterile) as they are presented in the canon. I'd recommend flavouring them with:
1) Internal conflict - the Houses can be much unrulier than they want to look like from outside. Powermongering, animosities, deep grudges, etc.
2) Striving and competing for sources - be it mundane materials, dragonshards or magic.
3) Striving for knowledge, spying on each other and their activities. May be not direct sabotage but espionage certainly. Who knows what I can use from the portfolio of the others?
4) Political alignment - the houses claim to be neutral and all but come on... They consist of people and people have motivations.
5) The influence from outside - is there really nobody else out there interested in the power the Houses have?
6) The 'marks are handy business tools, right? Wrong! They are part of the Prophecy in the first line. And that means trouble...
Personally, I believe that all these things exist anyway.
1) House Cannith is divided in 3 groups. Deneith leadership might change in a forthnight. Heirs of Sivis compete practically every minute( how I love the Zil...
). House Tharashk features both Dragon below worshippers and pro-Gatekeeper heirs. The latter allow open challenges for a position as well.2-3) Deneith vs Tharashk.Phiarlan vs Thuranni. Lyrandar vs Orien. And these are the obvious ones. Young and ambitious house Tharashk is often at odds with the established Cannith and their "superior House" attitude, while the houses of Shadow can't be happy with Medani counterintelligence.
4)You are right about the political neutrality. As for the people's motivation argument, I'm not sure i understand. I supposethat some individuals would favour a certain nation, but bear in mind that these people are not Karrns or Brelish-they're members of the House. As for the political neutrality of a House as a whole, I think it might prove very bad for business. It should be noted that House Phiarlan failed to keep its neutrality during the Last War and the result was the Shadow Schism(yes, there were additional reasons too, but it remains a critical factor) .
5) Of course they should be! The houses are stronger than ever, often exceeding their limits set by the edicts of Korth.The attempt to circumvent House Jorasco by training nationalist clerics is an example of reaction of the 5 nations against growing dragonmarked power.
6) Well, the dragons definitely agree with you(Hm...I just noticed your avatar. You should know :D ).
To sum things up, I don't consider them inert or sterile. Of course, it's just my opinion.
Still, there is a huge diference between a dragonmarked house(as displayed by the ECS and supporting fluff) and a true megacorp. Perhaps the OP might begin by entirely abolishing the edicts of Korth?
As for the "motivations" (and motivators
- the people of the Houses aren't Karrns or Brelish, true enough. But many of them have roots in one or more of the nations ... relatives, business contacts, friends, lovers. Some of them even came to the Houses from the Nations themselves, got adopted, got married, etc. And there are other ways how to motivate - e.g. corruption or blackmail. You can't blackmail the whole House (well, you can but it's a bit clumsy and, let's say, resource challenging :-) but there are individuals there, more or less open to a "reasonable offer". I would be very surprised if for instance the Royal Eyes or Dark Lanterns or just anybody else didn't have their agents working on this. And vice versa - Houses' agents are no less busy influencing the policies of the Nations, I'm sure. We shouldn't forget religious beliefs, either. A House member can be devoted to Blood of Vol or the Silver Flame or who-knows-what-other-cult. Religious zeal can do wonders if channelled properly and some people know how to put it to work. Motivations, motivations, motivations ... there are thousands of them.Personally, I believe that all these things exist anyway.
I agree, and your points 1-3 sum up much of what I was planning to say. Just to throw out a few more...
Stormreach in general is an excellent place for house conflict and powermongering, as it falls outside the jurisdiction of the Five Nations and there are any number of interesting resources to fight over. City of Stormreach includes details of some of the schemes of the major houses present, but it's easy enough to expand.
Lyrandar has political aspirations in Valenar and Stormreach, and the growing power of a fleet built in defiance of the Korth Edicts. It is set against Orien due to its increasing power over overland travel, and challenges Medani as the pillar of the Khoravar race. You have those within the house who seek to prosper through legitimate business... and you have those use the weather-manipulating powers of the house for extortion. And then you have the hidden worshippers of the Kraken Princes. One of my campaigns included a PC tied to this path - an infernal warlock whose fire powers we switched to lightning, reflecting her bargain with the dark spirits of the storm.
Tharashk has the Gatekeeper/Dragon Below conflict mentioned earlier, along with smaller-scale feuds between the different clans. It's eager to challenge Cannith's long dominance; conflicts with Deneith over mercenary services through its connections with Droaam; and has Medani as a rival in the Inquisitive arena. Its ties with Droaam are a potential source of political power and something that could pose a threat to the Thronehold nations in days to come. And in general, it is young and ambitious, eager to push boundaries others have come to accept.
Vadalis is often underutilized, but just what are they up to off in their dark corner? They rarely play political games; they are concerned with the creation of new life. What terrible skeletons lie in the family vaults? What secrets are they holding in reserve?
Cannith has its serious schism to deal with. On top of this, there's the question whether they can maintain their dominance in the face of other challengers - and if this will exacerbate the internal division as the barons forge new alliances to strengthen their own positions. Politically, you have Zorlan's ties with Karrnath... but which side does this bargain favor? And what about the Lord of Blades, or the belief many hold that some branch of Cannith was responsible for the Mourning? What about their desire to wrest the secret of elemental binding away from the Zil gnomes... a quest that could take them to Xen'drik, and result in a bitter industrial war should they succeed?
... And so on, and so on. Phiarlan and Thuranni have the obvious clash, but feud on many smaller levels - and that's not mentioning the Bloody Shadows, the clashes over heirloom performances, bitter competition with the national intelligence agencies, and the possible power plays between the demesnes. You have the Black Dogs of Ghallanda, but you also have Ghallanda's efforts to solidify its influence over urban life. And you can expand on what's there. Tasker's Dream wants to explore the potential of telepathy. Perhaps they just do this in a lab - or perhaps an extreme arm of the guild is kidnapping kalashtar or even inspired.
Anyhow, I have to get back to other work, and I'm sure others will be able to supply many excellent ideas. But I don't see the houses as stagnant. For me, the growing influence of the houses and their desire to assert this newfound power is a strong theme of the setting.
I would be very surprised if for instance the Royal Eyes or Dark Lanterns or just anybody else didn't have their agents working on this.
And all sorts of other forces. We've already seen examples of the Dreaming Dark and the Lords of Dust exerting significant influence within houses, and conflict between Kundarak and Soldorak/The Aurum. Looking to religion, you've got the obvious example of Tharashk, but there's also the Traveler cult of House Cannith, Vol sympathies mentioned in a few houses, and more.
To be clear, I'm not criticizing anyone for not seeing these things; I'm saying that if the houses read as flat and stagnant, it's certainly not my intent. I see house schemes as one of the driving forces of the setting.
Vadalis is often underutilized, but just what are they up to off in their dark corner? They rarely play political games; they are concerned with the creation of new life. What terrible skeletons lie in the family vaults? What secrets are they holding in reserve?
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I always see Vadalis and Jorasco like the Umbrella corporation from Resident evil. Both houses conducting all sorts of vile and wicked experiments in the name of profit and prefecting thier trades.
To be clear, I'm not criticizing anyone for not seeing these things; I'm saying that if the houses read as flat and stagnant, it's certainly not my intent. I see house schemes as one of the driving forces of the setting.
After thinking about my OP some more last night, I realized that my point of view does stem, in part, from the fact that I haven't read all of the source material, that I have cut out swaths of it to suit my own campaigns, and the sorts of things I focus on in my games.
That being said, what really drew me to Eberron in the first place was the sense that this was a world currently in conflict. I love the idea of the Gatekeepers constantly, and presently, struggling against the influence of the Daelkyr. I love the idea that the warforged are fighting for their own identity right now. And so on. But the Houses, as they have been presented, seem more like monoliths that provide flavour, not substance, to stories in the setting.
Hellcow, you have cited many examples of movement within and between the Houses, but I still contend those specific cases are the exception rather than the rule. My specific concern is this: those are all situations that were presented in the source material, and if I want to create other sources of conflict on my own, I find it more difficult to do so than I would like. In other words, I feel as though each and every one of the Houses should be dripping with potential for intrigue in many directions, not just one or two in a particular region or circumstance. I can, of course, come up with what I need on my own, but I feel as though I am fighting against the way the Houses have been presented as, for the most part, having monopolies over their respective spheres of influence, and, for the most part, never needing to step on each others toes in their day-to-day affairs.
Stormreach seems to be the one exception to this, as I can easily imagine all of the Houses squabbling over the concentration of resources being funneled through such a small location, and I would have liked to have this kind of conflict of interest between the Houses been made more prevalent in the rest of the source material.
Perhaps the OP might begin by entirely abolishing the edicts of Korth?
That, Ellorin, is a fine idea. I would love to play up the concept of the Houses subtly gaining more political power and encouraging nobility and royalty to bend, ignore, and eventually rescind restrictions on House affairs. It could mirror current-day practices in order to make it even more terrifying a prospect.
Thanks for your input!
I feel as though each and every one of the Houses should be dripping with potential for intrigue in many directions, not just one or two in a particular region or circumstance.
I still think you're looking at things on too small a scale. Look again at what I've said about Lyrandar. It's not just a few little plots in a particular region or circumstance.
- The conflict with Orien is a serious business oriented competition with an opponent - challenging a long-established monopoly on overland travel. This is rife with potential for industrial sabotage, as Orien would love to undermine the growing airship industry... and Orien is an extremely powerful foe.
- The alliance with Valenar isn't a plot that is LIMITED to Valenar; it is an attempt to create a Khoravar power bloc that the world has never seen, to give the Khoravar military and political power to equal the Five Nations. The Valenar are one piece of this; next you have the growing military potential of the Lyrandar fleets (built in defiance of Korth) and the military potential of their weather manipulation. What happens if Aundair realizes just how much power they are gaining and seeks to organize others to challenge them? Could the next war actually be driven by forces of industry, with Lyrandar, Deneith, and Cannith East allying to shatter the power of the Thronehold nations? Where would the other houses fall in such a conflict? If the PCs are dragonmarked heirs, they could be working within the houses to stop such a conflict by any means possible (using diplomacy or assassination to deal with the warmongers)... or they could BE the warmongers, seeking to usher in an age where corporate power replaces the whims of kings.
- On a smaller scale, weather extortion is something that can occur anywhere, in the hands of an ambitious Lyrandar lord. There's your point of light plot: what recourse does a farming village have, when a Lyrandar heir threatens drought if they don't pay his tribute - and promises to destroy their farms with hurricanes should they take this to the crown?
- The Storm Front is a malevolent force within the house that can manifest anywhere Lyrandar is found. What plots do the Kraken Princes have for the world? Could any of the above things be tied to their sinister goals?
- Khoravar activism can take many forms beyond the military option described above... and here we again have the possibility for conflict between houses.
- Elemental binding is an important issue for the house... which raises that issue of whether it's moral or safe. There's a whole path for conflict with the druids or primal PCs here, if you want to explore it.
- If you WANT to threaten their monopoly, have Zilargo start developing airships that don't require the Mark of Storm to control. What will they do to stop this?
All this is off the top of my head, so I may be missing an obvious conflict. Some houses have more going on than others, certainly. Cannith, Tharashk, Sivis, Phiarlan, Thuranni - all have clear conflicts. Some are waiting to be developed further. Ghallanda is innately one of the most passive houses... until you consider that their goal is to gain urban influence. The jolly innkeeper may be keeping tabs on every mob in town... or he may take things a step farther and be running one of the mobs, insuring he can get anything his customers want.
Of course, you can always set up smaller scale conflicts between houses that are entirely based on the aspirations of the local lords and have nothing to do with the overall agenda of the house. In the big picture, Tharashk and Kundarak may have no conflict. But you can still have the Q'barran outpost where the two are clashing over a particular mine, as the Tharashk lord has learned of something hidden the Kundarak owners have yet to find, or simply personal ambition.
I feel as though I am fighting against the way the Houses have been presented as, for the most part, having monopolies over their respective spheres of influence, and, for the most part, never needing to step on each others toes in their day-to-day affairs.
That is the intention. Look to our world. Microsoft is engaged in bitter competition with Apple. But Microsoft has no issues with Starbucks. Coke fights Pepsi, but they aren't competing with Microsoft. Likewise, Orien fights Lyrandar but doesn't give a damn about Medani... and both houses are equally dependent on Cannith. Phiarlan and Thuranni clash, but don't care about Jorasco. Tharashk has direct conflict with Medani and Deneith, and broader aspirations that could affect all the houses.... but on a day-to-day basis, little to do with Ghallanda. Cannith is its own worst enemy.
The monopoly power of the houses is an intentional part of the setting - setting up the fact that in this post-war world, the houses may be more powerful than nations. This requires the houses to BE powerful. They have their competitors, just as Microsoft has Apple and Coke has Pepsi. But some don't even have that. Does Starbucks really have a serious competitor? Ghallanda does many more things than make coffee... but likewise, their competition comes from the local operators (independent inns, organized crime, etc), not from another massive international entity.
This is also tied to the concept of the Twelve as an even more potent force - a force that is both parallel and serious challenge to the Council of Thronehold. The houses are engaged in their wars and conflicts... but when they do stand together, they are a force that can challenge kings. And that concept of a new war being fought on their terms is one that shouldn't be quickly dismissed.
So the houses ARE supposed to be mighty forces whose power is part of what defines the setting - the integration of magic into society, forged into mighty entities just as we have Microsoft and Pepsi. But this doesn't stop the houses from having options for intrigue at all levels - whether it's House vs Nation, House vs House, Internal strife within the house, or small-scale actions like the Lyrandar lord using weather extortion on a specific village. Some houses are less troubled than Lyrandar - but in my opinion, the majority do have an equal amount of potential for intrigue.
If the issue is that this simply isn't clear enough in the ECS, well, hopefully the core books for 4E will do better.
That, Ellorin, is a fine idea. I would love to play up the concept of the Houses subtly gaining more political power and encouraging nobility and royalty to bend, ignore, and eventually rescind restrictions on House affairs.
And my point is that this is exactly what IS being done in the current setting. Lyrandar, Cannith, Deneith, Medani, and Tharashk are all involved in activities that are increasing their power and are in violation of Korth; the issue is if anyone will ever call them on it, and if they do, what will happen. What will happen if Thronehold issues another edict like the destruction of the Creation Forges and the Twelve simply say "No"? Even now, I would argue that the only reason that action passed was because of the Cannith schism and because many of the other houses were happy to see Cannith weakened. But far from a subtle campaign to rescind Korth, I think what you're likely to see is more and more houses blatantly ignoring it.
I agree, and your points 1-3 sum up much of what I was planning to say. Just to throw out a few more...
Vadalis is often underutilized, but just what are they up to off in their dark corner? They rarely play political games; they are concerned with the creation of new life. What terrible skeletons lie in the family vaults? What secrets are they holding in reserve?
In the Shadows Over Cyre Chaotic fiction we started on this forum before it got moved to the PbP section, it turned out that the plague which crippled Karrnath early in the War was Vadalis work - it was intended as an area pacifier, but was too lethal and it got into the hands of the Blood of Vol who released it to force Kaius' alliance with them.
As far as anyone knows it was by a renegade bunch without direct permission from the head of the House. As far as anyone can prove anyway... They were also working on things like 'improving' lycanthropy and dealing with what became Zorlan's faction of Cannith.
We've had to deal with a couple of variants of the original plague - one was redesigned by Zorlan d'Cannith and his allies in the renegade Vadalis branch as a genocide weapon for Erandis' revenge against the elves and a second didn't just kill, it channeled negative energy to animate the corpses for the BoV.
One of the things that could be proven was that Vadalis itself was knowingly harboring werewolves - until they got blackmailed over it and Dalin excoriated the survivors of the mess. Without publicly revealing why of course.
And my point is that this is exactly what IS being done in the current setting. Lyrandar, Cannith, Deneith, Medani, and Tharashk are all involved in activities that are increasing their power and are in violation of Korth; the issue is if anyone will ever call them on it, and if they do, what will happen. What will happen if Thronehold issues another edict like the destruction of the Creation Forges and the Twelve simply say "No"? Even now, I would argue that the only reason that action passed was because of the Cannith schism and because many of the other houses were happy to see Cannith weakened. But far from a subtle campaign to rescind Korth, I think what you're likely to see is more and more houses blatantly ignoring it.
Would you mind elaborating further on how they are violating the Korth Edicts, or pointing out where this is spelled out in the source material? I did not get the impression that the Houses are currently pushing in this direction, though I'm going to allow for the possibility that I've simply forgotten reading as much since I've last flipped through the ECS.
I am very much looking forward to reading the 4E material for Eberron in the hope that it will provide more detail about the Dragonmarked Houses that I can use in my games.
Would you mind elaborating further on how they are violating the Korth Edicts, or pointing out where this is spelled out in the source material?
I'm traveling at the moment, and I don't have a PDF of Dragonmarked, so I can't confirm specifics there; I have a number of clear call-outs in the manuscript I have, but I don't know what was modified in editing. However, looking to a few general and specific things...
- City of Stormreach notes in multiple places that the houses are interested in Stormreach because it gives them a place to operate where the edicts hold no weight. One can certainly argue that this means they aren't challenging the edicts, but the point of its mention on page 66 is that Lyrandar is constructing a shipyard so it can produce a fleet of a strength forbidden under the edicts. Doing it in Stormreach keeps the nations from interfering; but the goal is to undermine the edicts altogether, by producing a military force beyond what the edicts allow.
- While I can't confirm if it's in the final version, my original Dragonmarked manuscript specifically calls this out in the beginning sections discussing the Korth Edicts and the Last War. The Korth Edicts place limits on the military forces that a house can maintain... and whatever you say about the forces of Kundarak or Phiarlan assassins, both Lyrandar and Tharashk are moving into a position where they are capable of fielding armies, clearly violating the edicts. My draft of DM says this of the edicts: "In the wake of the war, the status of the edicts remains uncertain. The Treaty of Thronehold called on the authority of the Korth Edicts when House Cannith was ordered to shut down the creation forges, and House Cannith acquiesced to the demand. But House Cannith was in chaos at the time, its leadership shattered by the Mourning. .. and more and more dragonmarked barons are holding to the opinion that the edicts were an agreement with the King of Galifar, not the rulers of the Five Nations. It remains to be seen whether the Thronehold nations will join together to rein in the power of the houses, or whether the economic and growing military power of the houses will soon allow them to dictate new terms to the nobility." A section under "The Orphan" notes (in my draft) "...but the Korth Edicts are beginning to crumble, and a house may see the advantage of seeding capable heirs in influential positions."
- Aside from building up its military forces, and the negotiated acquisition of Stormhome, Lyrandar heirs now hold land in Valenar - a violation of the edicts. Tharashk holds power of law in the Calabas of Graywall - outside the Thronehold nations, but again, a dragonmarked house building its political and military power to a level Galifar would surely have considered unacceptable.
- In Cannith, you have a strong contender for House Patriarch engaged in activities that are clearly in violation of the edicts (maintaining and operating a creation forge), and another contender using the Blood of Vol as a way to gain political power. Narrow examples, perhaps, but these are the leaders of the house, and they will shape its actions. Currently the creation forge is secret... but should that leader consolidate the house behind him, will he bring it forth from the shadows and put innovation ahead of ancient laws? Again, the DM note specifies that it was Cannith's division that caused them to comply with the demands; a united Cannith could be a different story... but, of course, efforts to unify Cannith mean more intrigue.
- While many houses remained neutral in the last war and worked with all sides, Medani has been called out as working closely with Breland, forging close political ties with the Brelish crown. This is a way for Medani to get power for Medani... but how does the Twelve feel about it? Again, certainly a house working to develop a greater level of influence within a nation than Galifar intended.
These are a few examples... I don't really have the time to comb through and look for more. But the key is that Last War section from Dragonmarked (which may have been edited out, of course!). The edicts are crumbling. The barons are questioning and challenging them. Again, if this isn't called out clearly in the 3.5 ECS, it's something you should see spelled out more directly in the 4E ECS. It's always been a core idea of the setting: the balance of power between nation and house, and the many intrigues the houses can spawn. The edicts HAVE held for centuries... but they are failing now, and the house are pushing against them.
For example, House Bobiago might maintain several caravans, and have membership in the Transportation Guild, dominated by House Orien. However, they are ruthless competitors, and undercut House Orien on price, and attempt to open up alternate trade routes. Now with unchecked power, House Orien would just crush the little house, but they are allied with House Lyrandar and have the resources of that House on their side. So Orien has to use the advantages of the Mark of Passage, leverage the Lightning Rail, and maybe prop up little House Boberobert, which is competing with House Lyrandar for inexpensive shipping (and happens to be a front for an upstart Lhazaar prince).
This also ties to House Medani's strong ties to the Brelish throne. This could mean that Medani would actually side with the crown and try to protect the institution from the machinations of the other houses... or, on the cynical side, it could be prep work to manipulate the next Brelish ruler.
If you read it closely, you can see where Orrien and Lyrander would be at each other's throats, much like the airlines, railways, trucking and bus companies are today. But if you rip off the top layer, you can see where Orrien's mail delivery competes with Sivis' message services. Since Sivis can't deliver parcels, they contract that out to Lyrander, creating a level of friendship and another level of competition.
Kundarak competes against the spying houses and Deneith mercenary guilds directly by offering a different way around the problem, so does Cannaith by replacing the experts at Kundarak by magically-powered machines.
And you can't forget the Cannaith versus Deneith fight. One house sells constructs, the other provides mercenaries, but they're both looking to get those same fat, juicy contracts.
I think it might have been all those years playing Shadowrun, but Eberron has always felt like it. The houses fighting against each other, jostling to be the top dog, the governments trying to curb their excesses while currying their favor and then there's the duplicitous double-dealing that they don't want anyone to know about that leads me to believe that they are the megacorporations of the Eberron campaign.
*Go read your Pratchett, seriously.