To my topic: Eladrin in Eberron. Honestly, I am terribly excited about this, given that the cosmology is being reworked. I know this is a touchy subject, but I think the new cosmology will allow me to have planar adventures in Eberron, which excites me. Let me tell you why. Just as Eberron is split into political states, the planes themselves act as quasi-political states. Invasion into Eberron is surprisingly common in the lore. I find this extremely exciting.
Here is my basic idea for the Eladrin in Eberron.
First of all, it is stated in the Lore that the elves were pilgrims from Thelanis who were captured and enslaved by the powerful giants. Originally, therefore, Elves were Eladrin (exactly as in core DnD). It stands to reason, therefore, that Eladrin and Elves would share certain personality traits. One thing that spans across Elven peoples in Eberron is their propensity for violence and obsession with death. Every major group of Elves displays a desire for glory in battle (even the Aerenal Elves with their war against the Dragons).
The main difference between the Eladrin's supposed history and that of the Elves is the long slavery by the giants and the Elvish people being slaughtered by the thousands in blood rituals at the end of the Quori war. Therefore, I will make the assumption that, while the Eladrin will, likely, be extremely warlike, they will have a greater propensity toward pride. The fact that the Eladrin people were never enslaved will lead to greater bravura, though they will display less of a desire to "prove themselves," since they will believe that they are superior without any need for public displays.
In addition, the Eladrin will probably lack the Elvish obsession with death since this obsession stems from the sudden loss of thousands of Elves at once, not from the subsequent war against the giants.
Now for some speculation on Eladrin History.
Since the 4E Thelanis is the Feywild, we can make at least one major assumption. It is extremely likely that the Fomorians are prevelant there. As we have already stated above, the Eladrin are assumed to be interested in glorious battle, making the Fomorians the most likely target. Now we will tell this more like a story.
The Eladrin of Thelanis, the Feywild, once roamed the endless forests with only a desire to explore and learn their world's secrets. Over time, they became disheartened with, what they called, the "lack of orderly variety." Thus, the Eladrin began to construct cities, forcing change onto the surface of Thelanis. Early attempts were disasters as the energy that flowed through the plane destroyed the Eladrin works, laying waste to all order. Not to be defeated, the clever Eladrin found ways to weave the plane's energy into their cities. By building cities into the trees themselves, they found that the wilderness had difficulty fighting back their progress and the Eladrin Empire grew. The first foe of the Eladrin, that of their own plane, seemed to be defeated after thirty millennia and would soon lie at their feet.
It was then, when Thelanis seemed to have bowed to its new master, that a new force appeared. The Fomorians had forged another empire beneath the crust of Thelanis, but it was one far more in tune with the nature of the plane. Embracing the pure wild frenzy of the Feywild, the Fomorians acted in favor of chaos against the Eladrin order. While the Fomorians lacked as much structure and training as the Eladrin, the plane itself seemed to empower the Fomorians as they emerged from the Feydark and began their conquest of the surface.
The power struggle was fierce and both sides saw near defeat over the 19,000 year war that followed. It was obvious to the Eladrin that they were not truly fighting the Fomorians (in fact, most saw the fomorians as useful future slaves), but their war was with Thelanis itself. Halfway into the struggle, the Eladrin realized that Thelanis had no need to actually win this war. By maintaining the status quo, Thelanis could keep both the wild chaos of the Fomorians and the orderly beauty of the Eladrin. The Eladrin had once faced defeat from their plane and they vowed then to never allow their race to face a loss again.
In the interest of defeating Thelanis, the Eladrin realized that the Arcane energy of the plane would not avail them nor allow them to destroy the plane's allies. Therefore, the Eladrin turned to a new source. They discovered the innate Primal energy of the plane of Eberron and forged powerful pacts with those forces, giving rise to the first Druids and Wardens that Thelanis had seen. It took thousands of years to master these arts, as Thelanis worked hard to reject this power and the Eladrin themselves struggled to wrap their minds around this foreign concept.
In the end, the Eladrin mastered the Primal energy of Eberron and were able to siphon their native seas and oceans directly into Fomorian strongholds, drowning millions of their forces and leaders. With the surface forces left alone, it took only ten years to destroy all remaining armies, leaving the surviving Fomorians scattered and leaderless in the Feydark.
It has been thirty years since the final battle against Thelanis and the plane has since bowed to the Eladrin supremacy. Now the eyes of the Eladrin have turned to the source of their new-found power: Eberron. To the powers that be, the material plane offers untold power, and, to the masses of unused armies, a new challenge. First to conquer the peoples then the material plane itself would be forced to bow to their power.
As the Eladrin mass an army, spies begin to trickle into Eberron. Overall, the invasion is kept secret, but those who attempt to warn Eberron are either quickly silenced or ignored altogether. Current studies of Eberron's surface have revealed that the easiest invasion point would be in Sarlona, and, when it arrives, it will surely start there.
There. I hope you enjoyed that, or, at least, got through it.
I want to hear what you think, of course, but I feel kinda attached to this story so please be nice to my baby.
Yours,
Lord Dreadman
I'll agree with Skrapsan that the finale invasion paragraph mightn't sit that well with some people. An invasion maybe not, but perhaps multiple expeditions into the Material to "liberate" their lost cousins (elves and drow) and find out what happened to them after the Giants stole them away all those long millenia ago.
Valenar = Elf
Aeranal = Eladrin
Simple.
I iz blown away by this revelation. Were the Aeranii always able to teleport or did they discover this ability sometime during the timeskip?
Valenar = Elf
Aeranal = Eladrin
Simple.
Hate to bust your bubble, but mr Baker have on several ocations stated that this is not going to be the case. I don't have the links right atm. But the general argument is that the difference between valenar and Aerenal and for that matter Khorvair elves is that they are mostly cultural, not racial. The argument goes like this, yes the Aeranal are vastly superior with the arcane arts. But that is mostly because they have a thousand year or so headstart. Now they are a bit stagnant actually and the Khorvairan nations are actually gaining on them. At least as I understand it...
First of all, the Eladrin consider themselves above every other race, and who can say that they're wrong, given their success on their own plane. However, we need to remember that most races feel the same way toward other races, even if this belief is subconcious. While they saw the chaos of the Fomorians as animalistic, and believed that slavery would be the only way to control them, the Eladrin would see the races of Eberron's desire for order and control as a similar goal to theirs. In short, the Eladrin will, at first see allies everywhere. On the other hand, the idea of lawful creatures fighting among themselves is entirely alien to them (having never had a major revolt among their kind), so the Last War is sure to split some Eladrin hairs. This, combined with the Eladrin's disire to take center stage in how the material plane ought to be organized, will be the source of conflict.
Second, the Eladrin are not truly at war with the creatures of the material plane. The thing that seperates that Eladrin from the Elves and other creatures of Eberron is that they see Planes as sentient beings, in a way. The war would not be with the peoples of Eberron, per se, it would be with Eberron itself. Again, the Eladrin would probably see allies everywhere. Their spies are there to investigate what the Material plane fights against and how. It won't be long before they realize that Eberron is best at rejecting foreign invaders. (Eberron has never lost a fight, as it were.) However, this ability to study invasions of the past and the desire to form treaties may make the Eladrin the best invaders of all time.
Third, we have to recall that the Invasion is not public knowledge, even to the Eladrin. Some spies do not even know that they are spies. They may be exiled from Thelanis for a number of years and don't know they are collecting data. A few have gone to the Material plane on small scale "invasions," and formed adventuring parties to bring order to the world. Some have been sent as diplomats and others are studying ways to maintain their Primal power after Eberron turns on them. Even those who know about the invasion are anything but hateful toward the common races. They would have been surprised to find that, despite the chaotic nature of their native Primal power, the races of Eberron are mostly lawful good. Over time, they would likely even respect the strategic use of chaos, because, unlike in Thelanis, the Material plane seems to be surprised by this. (Note: It would likely be fun for an Eladrin player to comment on Eberron's "moods" and "reactions.") In short, most Eladrin want to control another plane, but few know that it has been in the works for years.
So what I mean to say by all of this is that, while the invasion into the Material plane is imminent, it should not stop a player from choosing this race. I understand that it could make things sticky in certain situations, but I, personally, find that enjoyable. I should point out that Drow are a surpassingly common race to play, yet I believe that the Eladrin should be far easier to roleplay in Khorvaire.
I don't mean to suggest that it doesn't make sense for you should dislike the invasion, but I did want to explain why the invasion jives well with a playable race for me.
There! If you actually read through both of my posts, you really deserve a pat on the back! Tell me what you think.
Yours,
Lord Dreadman
First of all, it is stated in the Lore that the elves were pilgrims from Thelanis who were captured and enslaved by the powerful giants.
Is it?
Back when 4e first hit and people were wondering how Eladrin would fit into Eberron, I'd thought it would make sense to discover that Eladrin were the root race the giants turned into slaves rather than making them up entirely themselves.
That was just a random thought, though. If this is the official story even during 3.5e it'd put a big smile on my face.
Where did you see mention in the books that explained how giants made elves from Eladrin? Secrets of Xen'drik I guess?
but I did want to explain why the invasion jives well with a playable race for me.
And you did, I see how you reason now, and I'm still impressed. Not entierly sold just yet on the invasion idea. It would make far more sence to me that they were explorerers or something. But when one consider our own history, the difference aint that big after all.
There! If you actually read through both of my posts, you really deserve a pat on the back!
I did, now pat my back :D
First of all, it is stated like so in "The Grand History of Eberron."
The giants of these civilizations enslaved the elves, recent immigrants to Eberron from the plane of Thelanis, also known as the Feywild, which had the inadvertent effect of pulling the first of the common humanoid races out of their primitive state.
I understand that this is not necessarily canon. Obviously, I did my own research on the idea and here is what I found.
Keith Baker, the creator of Eberron and one of the people involved in converting it to 4E, had this to say about Eladrin:
Eladrin. We're standing by what we said in 3.5: Eladrin are denizens of Thelanis. Again, there's a big story here we'll reveal in time, but for the moment, just bear in mind that Thelanis is one of the easiest planes to move to and from. ( http://gloomforge.livejournal.com/11787.html#cutid1 )
Again, this is not canon, but I consider it to be the next best thing.
Here is where conjecture takes over, but not without support from the core rules of 4E. If the Eladrin have the [Fey] descriptor from their connection to Thelanis, it stands to reason that the Elves have the [Fey] descriptor from their connection to Thelanis. (Note: This descriptor may be removed in Eberron, we don't know. As it is, however, we must make these assumptions.)
In addition, the similarity in their physical appearance is a huge suggestion that they are related. The differences in their combat abilities are likely to be attributed to the Elves' seperation from the Arcane energy of Thelanis rather than notable differences in anatomy.
So the argument goes like this: If Eladrin are from Thelanis and Thelanis is the easiest plane to travel to Eberron from, then it stands to reason that some Eladrin would have made it to Eberron at some point. However, Eladrin are not prevalent on Eberron. Eladrin and Elves are amazingly similar. If Eladrin did make it to Eberron durring the Giant's empire, they would have been enslaved and could have, over time, become the Elves.
It also explains why Elves have the name "Elf." After all, the word refers to something small, wheras they would surely never call themselves "small." No, because originally they called themselves Eladrin; it was the Giants who forced the name "Elf" onto the race.
Like I said, there are a lot of "maybes" in those ideas. I know this, but there is more evidence that the Elves are descendants of Eladrin from Thelanis than there is evidence against it. I applogise for blatantly stating that it was in the Lore, but it has become lore to me because I don't see any other explaination.
Either way, even if the Elves are not descendants of Eladrin, it really does not effect my explanation for the Eladrin in Eberron much. A little tweek and it works just as well, though it might poke a hole in my assumptions about the Eladrin being similar to Elves.
I hope you can see that my knowing all of this when I wrote my history is a strength, not a weakness. Yes, there is conjecture, but there is also an interesting story, plausible events, and fun character ideas.
Yours,
Lord Dreadman
I really like this ... primarily because it supports my theoretical story! First, it makes mention of Luca abandoning her post on Thelanis just over a hundred years ago, and she is still wanted for abandoning her Lords (suggesting a struggle that requires strategic location control). Also, it makes the point that Luca becomes disillusioned with the Last War, heavily suggesting that Eladrin see war as something entirely different than how mortals see it. It really makes sense for an Eladrin to become depressed over seeing Lawful creatures fight one another instead of the chaotic power of their plane.
I did want to mention that, in 3rd Edition, Eladrin were innately good, and fought against demons. In the same way, they all had innate high level powers. I mention this merely to explain why they said that, not to suggest that demons could not be involved. In fact, given their propensity for chaos, demons could have been working for the Fomorians and now hold a grudge against the Eladrin. That would add an innate enemy, and would be fun.
Yours,
Lord Dreadman
But that little find on Luca Syara is still an interesting gem. Perhaps we could look at her in a 4e perspective as an advanced scout. An eladrin sent ahead of the main group to see what's happened. An though Luca arrived early in the Last War, temporal instability being what it is in Thelanis, only a month or two may have passed, but 100 years has crackled along on the material plane.
The Eladrin first realized this while fighting the Formorians which are giant-kin race that arrived to the Feydark after Xen'drik's devastation (maybe the Formorians are possessed by the quori, which may drive the Eladrin to effect the lives of the dreaming races of Eberron).
In any case may it be demons, twisted giants or Daelkyr minions - they key to wining the wars of Thelanis may lay in Eberron.
just a (fey) wild theory.
I did want to mention that, in 3rd Edition, Eladrin were innately good, and fought against demons. In the same way, they all had innate high level powers.
Eladrin have always been a class of entity, like archon, angel, or devil... and like archons or devils, have had a spectrum of power. As a ghaele eladrin, Luca could be seen as being on par with a 4E ghaele of winter; she's not just a minor member of a fey court, and should still be powerful in 4E.
For one part, eberron will need now a source of fey pacts for feylocks to have their powers. I've realized that Eladrin, or some Eladrin spirits would solve that problem. You should also remember that in the description of the inhabitants of Thelanis there's no mention of anything that would even be a friend of a Fomorian.
Another thing: the Feywild would most likely not be Thelanis but the permanently coterminous part of Thelanis (and probably Lammania) with eberron. Among those things, there's the Twilight Demesne where the Greensingers meet with the fey. A place that is both Eberron and Thelanis, and is in the Eldeen Reaches.
Oh! And once, I read Keith on the topic of Lammania and Thelanis and he explained that Thelanis was no wild at all. Green?, yes. Wild? No, it's the court of faeries. It's really a crazy place but it's tamed. Which is diametrically opposed to Lammania.
Now, what about this: The Xoriat invation might have ended 5000 years ago in Eberron, but in Thelanis, it began 1000 years ago.
The Fomorian are not from Thelanis, and certaintly don't embrace the wild part of the plane (because it doesn't have one), but instead they are Daelkyr creations that the Gatekeepers managed to send to Khyber but then they found a way into the "Feydark".
As such, the need of Eladrins to gain primal power came the same way as it came to orcs: it's the only real antidote to aberrations.
The Greensingers, then, where born. But much latter than the gatekeepers, of course.
Of course, until this point, the eladrins are suffering all the things that all the inhabitants of thelanis are suffering, and it turned out that the other fey where much better at getting in touch with nature than the eladrins.
The eladrin where losing their power to the other fey over the plane and so they had to take action.
They developed a sistem: the feypact. The very few eladrins that managed to get in touch with the spirit of Thelanis offered any eladrin or greensinger interested the posibility of accessing the vast arcane power that the Feyplane offered but in exchange the recipient had to do something which the eladrin always said was "the will of Thelanis"
Usually this where seemingly irrelevant acts that usually turned out to have great impact. Then the eladrin began to fear as the Givers (as they where called) began to turn into powerful spirits that where very well above any of their brother's authority.
Just as the eladrin had retaken a good position over Thelanis, fear of the givers surpassed their ambition and the feypact was forbiden.
Up to today this spirits wander the Twilight Demesne and the Court of Faeries looking for potential warlocks for them to pact. But their true intentions remain a mystery for all but themselves and the wisest of the fey. And they all keep their mouths shut, for they know better.
That way you put eladrin and feypact in the world.
You could also add that as one of the most important reasons why the Ashbound hate arcane magic is warlocks. Specifically feylocks.
Oh! And once, I read Keith on the topic of Lammania and Thelanis and he explained that Thelanis was no wild at all. Green?, yes. Wild? No, it's the court of faeries. It's really a crazy place but it's tamed. Which is diametrically opposed to Lammania.
To clarify, I'm not sure I'd say Thelanis is "tamed". If you read The Gates of Night, you'll see that it's a dangerous and unpredictable place. However, yes, it is a realm inhabited by civilized beings, a place where you can find castles and taverns, as opposed to the more primeval nature of Lamannia. But it's still a place filled with dangers for those who stray from the path.
So I guess that makes the original idea plausible (well, except for the fact that the Eberron CS mentions no fomorian or aberration in Thelanis)
Awesome.
That is all.
Yours,
Lord Dreadman
PS: Keith, let's do lunch sometime, man.
Dude you're a worry sometimes (and gratz btw, hope you enjoy the warm bubbly feeling)
PS: Keith, let's do lunch sometime, man.
Have your people call my people!
Keith, let's do lunch sometime, man.
Don't give the man a heartattack now, Mr. Hellcow ;)
Actually, I am planning to travel around the US and the world later in 2009, running and discussing games for people willing to give me a place to sleep for a few nights. So this actually isn't outside the realm of possibility. If this is something that interests you, keep an eye on my livejournal for updates.
So what I hear you saying is that I have a couch in Toronto with your name on it?
Sounds that way!
Actually, I am planning to travel around the US and the world later in 2009, running and discussing games for people willing to give me a place to sleep for a few nights. So this actually isn't outside the realm of possibility. If this is something that interests you, keep an eye on my livejournal for updates.
I did not see that world part at first, now if you want to come to Norway you might want to go to Oslo since its our only town of actual size. And our capitol, but that's details. Now if you should drift a few hours south with a car, then my home is open.
I did not see that world part at first, now if you want to come to Norway you might want to go to Oslo since its our only town of actual size. And our capitol, but that's details. Now if you should drift a few hours south with a car, then my home is open.
When I'm in Europe, I'm probably going to be relying on trains or other public transit. But if there's a way to reach you I'd certainly like to - I'd enjoy meeting some of the people I've gotten to know over the boards. As I said, I'll be discussing the project in more detail on my LJ soon - I'll post the link when I do.
When I'm in Europe, I'm probably going to be relying on trains or other public transit. But if there's a way to reach you I'd certainly like to - I'd enjoy meeting some of the people I've gotten to know over the boards. As I said, I'll be discussing the project in more detail on my LJ soon - I'll post the link when I do.
Loads of trains to Tønsberg, now remember Norway is a bit out of reach, but then again, we have some classical D&D nature if one would like to see it. Only that is a bit further north than where I live.
-Joni
Any plans to include Finland on the Euro tour?
Certainly, as long as there's a sofa with my name on it!
However, I don't want to derail this thread. As such, I've just posted more details on my livejournal - I encourage anyone interested in Keith's World Tour to post further questions there.
Come to Oz, specifically the western end!
* realigns the train-tracks *
Anywho, so what's the overall goal of the various "lords" of the Eladrin? They follow the different seasons (apparently). So would a ghalae of winter perhaps have ties to the Children of Winter, both seeing a need for the weak to be culled so the fittest can take advantage of the spring to come? Maybe someone from the Autumn Court is VERY interested in the Mourning, for reasons fair or foul. Lots of opportunities here I can see.