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Emerald Claw and Zombies?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Wick
Aug 12, 2010 11:03:11 So anyone have any cool insight on how the Emeralds Claw creating of Zombies or at least lore on the creation of Karnathi Zombies?

#2
Phobos
Aug 12, 2010 15:40:26 Not sure what you're looking for but Karnath is heavily into necromancy and animation of the dead, infact it is an honor to serve your country again. So, the whole practice is quite common. I don't imagine it to be any different for the Emeral Claw.

There is nothign reall on this to any extent in to 4e book, but there may be more from the 3.5 fluff books, I'd have to look.
#3
Wick
Aug 12, 2010 15:45:25 I found a thing called Weaver of Flesh on page 48 of the 4E ECG... Will be using it.

#4
Phobos
Aug 12, 2010 15:50:32 Ok, also the 3.5 book Five Nations has an entire chapted on Karrnath, pgs 95-123. There is a lot of still valid fluff on the undead and ways of Karrnath.

Obviously the Blod of Vol and the Emeral Claw and the Karrathi King and such are all deeply intertwined.

Quoting a single small section in hopes that its not against the TOS:

Early in the Last War, plague- and famine-ravaged
Karrnath resorted to using undead soldiers in its army—a
desperate decision that might have saved Karrnath from
utter ruin. Even today, Karrnath keeps undead legions to
defend its borders and to use in case hostilities resume.
Karrnath is not, however, a place where the
undead are integrated into society (unlike Aerenal,
for example, where the undead and the living coexist).
During the Last War, the undead formed separate
military units from Karrnath’s living soldiers, and
only rarely performed in joint operations. Today,
the legions of undead remain hidden, both from
the average citizen and the eyes of the other nations.
A relative few Karrnathi skeleton and zombie troops
patrol the borders and serve as special guards in Korth
and Atur, usually at facilities tied to the crown.
The average Karrn finds the intelligent undead
to be at best creepy and at worst completely terrifying.
Karrnathi soldiers have better tolerance, but few want
to socialize with the undead. Everyone appreciates
the role that the undead play in defending Karrnath,
however, and the typical soldier feels a sense of pride
in knowing that he or she can continue to protect the
nation even after death.
#5
ReasonForTreason
Aug 21, 2010 7:43:51 I also remember that karrnathi Undead are enhanced by ways of alchemical magic... but I dunno where I read that.
If you have the chance to check out the Iron Kingdom campaign setting and especially the stand-alone 3-part adventure, you could find some great ideas about special undead in there :-)

And finally, you should check out www.giantbomb.com/might-magic-heroes-vi/... for some nice concept arts of Might and Magic VI Heroes. The vampire lord and the necromancers are great Emerald Claw Leaders, while the Praetorian is a fine Spear of Boldrei!
#6
Hellcow
Aug 23, 2010 17:32:41
So anyone have any cool insight on how the Emeralds Claw creating of Zombies or at least lore on the creation of Karnathi Zombies?

If I understand the OP's original question, it's not about the general use of zombies as much as the rituals involved in creating Karrnathi Zombies - the superior, intelligent zombies often associated with the Blood of Vol and its chivalric orders. In 3E, these are significantly tougher than standard zombies, but there's no clear guidelines on the process used to create them. So what's the story?

As far as I know, there's no canon answer to this. What the ECS clearly states is that they are "created from the remains of elite Karrnathi soldiers slain in battle" and treated alchemically. I've always maintained that the ritual involved is a secret of the Blood of Vol and that it is a ritual. Regardless of what system you're using, this is an extended process in which the remains must be soaked in alchemical fluids; this isn't something you do on the battlefield. Beyond this, let's look at each piece of that canon description.

...created from the remains of elite Karrnathi soldiers slain in battle...
Karrnathi undead are far superior to the rank and file soldiers, who in Eberron are 1st level commoners or warriors. They have more hit dice. They have superior skills. They have damage reduction. They don't eat, they don't sleep, and they have darkvision. If you could slaughter your peasants and get an army of Karrnathi undead, you'd be a terror. Unfortunately for you, you can't. The Karrnathi undead can only be created from the remains of elite soldiers - In my opinion, this requires a soldier whose level was equal to or greater than the hit dice of the undead you are trying to create. Thus, you have to lose an elite soldier before you can make an undead replacement.

...created from the remains of elite Karrnathi soldiers slain in battle...
Not only does he have to be an elite soldier, he has to be YOUR elite soldier. You can't raise your opponents. Why? More on that later.

...created from the remains of elite Karrnathi soldiers slain in battle...
Your target has to go down fighting. You can't slaughter him and bring him back, so no quick undead army for you. The element of his giving his life for your cause - going down on the battlefield, weapon in hand - is critical. If he dies outside of battle, the essence isn't there.

Why could this be? In my opinion, it's tied to speak with dead. SWD doesn't interact with the spirit, but rather with the residual memories on the corpse. I see the same thing here. Residual elements cling to the corpse - devotion to the cause, experience with war, death in battle. The priests channel that and return the corpse to fight again.

With that said, Karrnathi undead are not in any way the people they were in life. They are intelligent and can speak, but they do not have the memories of the people they once were. This is why all Karrnathi skeletons possess the same skill set. In my opinion, Karrnathi undead should feel eerie and inhuman. They have returned to fight for the nature. They are, in essence, incarnations of war - slain in battle and returned to fight again. War is all that they care about. There's no love, no "why am I here", none of the "who am I" you can get with the warforged. There are no questions in the minds of the Karrnathi undead; they exist to kill the enemy. This is what ultimately makes the Karrnathi undead inferior to the warforged: they are not alive. They have no curiosity and are largely incapable of learning. They possess the same skills... and while a few can develop different skills, those would be strange exceptions developed for a particular story.

In selling the Karrnathi crown on the ida of using undead soldiers, the Blood of Vol assured Kaius that the undead are driven by loyalty to Karrnath - which is why you have to use the corpse of a Karrnathi soldier. With that said, it's entirely possible they were lying. It's just possible that they are motivated by loyalty to the Blood of Vol... or that there's a switch that could be flipped when Erandis is ready. Kaius is no dummy; he doesn't want to give up these troops, but he has isolated them in places like Fort Bones. So it's a lingering threat, but one that would not come as a complete surprise.

With all this said, bear in mind that the Karrnathi military - both Blood of Vol and the secular Corpse Collectors - emply normal zombies and skeletons in addition to the elite Karrnathi undead. So they DO use skeletons and zombies made from the corpses of enemies, and you can find a first-level band of the Emerald Claw using normal, crappy 1 HD zombies. The Karrnathi undead are superior forces, created from superior corpses.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Wick Aug 12, 2010 11:03:11	So anyone have any cool insight on how the Emeralds Claw creating of Zombies or at least lore on the creation of Karnathi Zombies?
#2 Phobos Aug 12, 2010 15:40:26	Not sure what you're looking for but Karnath is heavily into necromancy and animation of the dead, infact it is an honor to serve your country again. So, the whole practice is quite common. I don't imagine it to be any different for the Emeral Claw. There is nothign reall on this to any extent in to 4e book, but there may be more from the 3.5 fluff books, I'd have to look.
#3 Wick Aug 12, 2010 15:45:25	I found a thing called Weaver of Flesh on page 48 of the 4E ECG... Will be using it.
#4 Phobos Aug 12, 2010 15:50:32	Ok, also the 3.5 book Five Nations has an entire chapted on Karrnath, pgs 95-123. There is a lot of still valid fluff on the undead and ways of Karrnath. Obviously the Blod of Vol and the Emeral Claw and the Karrathi King and such are all deeply intertwined. Quoting a single small section in hopes that its not against the TOS: Early in the Last War, plague- and famine-ravaged Karrnath resorted to using undead soldiers in its army—a desperate decision that might have saved Karrnath from utter ruin. Even today, Karrnath keeps undead legions to defend its borders and to use in case hostilities resume. Karrnath is not, however, a place where the undead are integrated into society (unlike Aerenal, for example, where the undead and the living coexist). During the Last War, the undead formed separate military units from Karrnath’s living soldiers, and only rarely performed in joint operations. Today, the legions of undead remain hidden, both from the average citizen and the eyes of the other nations. A relative few Karrnathi skeleton and zombie troops patrol the borders and serve as special guards in Korth and Atur, usually at facilities tied to the crown. The average Karrn finds the intelligent undead to be at best creepy and at worst completely terrifying. Karrnathi soldiers have better tolerance, but few want to socialize with the undead. Everyone appreciates the role that the undead play in defending Karrnath, however, and the typical soldier feels a sense of pride in knowing that he or she can continue to protect the nation even after death.
#5 ReasonForTreason Aug 21, 2010 7:43:51	I also remember that karrnathi Undead are enhanced by ways of alchemical magic... but I dunno where I read that. If you have the chance to check out the Iron Kingdom campaign setting and especially the stand-alone 3-part adventure, you could find some great ideas about special undead in there :-) And finally, you should check out www.giantbomb.com/might-magic-heroes-vi/... for some nice concept arts of Might and Magic VI Heroes. The vampire lord and the necromancers are great Emerald Claw Leaders, while the Praetorian is a fine Spear of Boldrei!
#6 Hellcow Aug 23, 2010 17:32:41	So anyone have any cool insight on how the Emeralds Claw creating of Zombies or at least lore on the creation of Karnathi Zombies? If I understand the OP's original question, it's not about the general use of zombies as much as the rituals involved in creating Karrnathi Zombies - the superior, intelligent zombies often associated with the Blood of Vol and its chivalric orders. In 3E, these are significantly tougher than standard zombies, but there's no clear guidelines on the process used to create them. So what's the story? As far as I know, there's no canon answer to this. What the ECS clearly states is that they are "created from the remains of elite Karrnathi soldiers slain in battle" and treated alchemically. I've always maintained that the ritual involved is a secret of the Blood of Vol and that it is a ritual. Regardless of what system you're using, this is an extended process in which the remains must be soaked in alchemical fluids; this isn't something you do on the battlefield. Beyond this, let's look at each piece of that canon description. ...created from the remains of *elite* Karrnathi soldiers slain in battle... Karrnathi undead are far superior to the rank and file soldiers, who in Eberron are 1st level commoners or warriors. They have more hit dice. They have superior skills. They have damage reduction. They don't eat, they don't sleep, and they have darkvision. If you could slaughter your peasants and get an army of Karrnathi undead, you'd be a terror. Unfortunately for you, you can't. The Karrnathi undead can only be created from the remains of elite soldiers - In my opinion, this requires a soldier whose level was equal to or greater than the hit dice of the undead you are trying to create. Thus, you have to lose an elite soldier before you can make an undead replacement. ...created from the remains of elite Karrnathi soldiers slain in battle... Not only does he have to be an elite soldier, he has to be YOUR elite soldier. You can't raise your opponents. Why? More on that later. ...created from the remains of elite Karrnathi soldiers slain in battle... Your target has to go down fighting. You can't slaughter him and bring him back, so no quick undead army for you. The element of his giving his life for your cause - going down on the battlefield, weapon in hand - is critical. If he dies outside of battle, the essence isn't there. Why could this be? In my opinion, it's tied to speak with dead. SWD doesn't interact with the spirit, but rather with the residual memories on the corpse. I see the same thing here. Residual elements cling to the corpse - devotion to the cause, experience with war, death in battle. The priests channel that and return the corpse to fight again. With that said, Karrnathi undead are not in any way the people they were in life. They are intelligent and can speak, but they do not have the memories of the people they once were. This is why all Karrnathi skeletons possess the same skill set. In my opinion, Karrnathi undead should feel eerie and inhuman. They have returned to fight for the nature. They are, in essence, incarnations of war - slain in battle and returned to fight again. War is all that they care about. There's no love, no "why am I here", none of the "who am I" you can get with the warforged. There are no questions in the minds of the Karrnathi undead; they exist to kill the enemy. This is what ultimately makes the Karrnathi undead inferior to the warforged: they are not alive. They have no curiosity and are largely incapable of learning. They possess the same skills... and while a few can develop different skills, those would be strange exceptions developed for a particular story. In selling the Karrnathi crown on the ida of using undead soldiers, the Blood of Vol assured Kaius that the undead are driven by loyalty to Karrnath - which is why you have to use the corpse of a Karrnathi soldier. With that said, it's entirely possible they were lying. It's just possible that they are motivated by loyalty to the Blood of Vol... or that there's a switch that could be flipped when Erandis is ready. Kaius is no dummy; he doesn't want to give up these troops, but he has isolated them in places like Fort Bones. So it's a lingering threat, but one that would not come as a complete surprise. With all this said, bear in mind that the Karrnathi military - both Blood of Vol and the secular Corpse Collectors - emply normal zombies and skeletons in addition to the elite Karrnathi undead. So they DO use skeletons and zombies made from the corpses of enemies, and you can find a first-level band of the Emerald Claw using normal, crappy 1 HD zombies. The Karrnathi undead are superior forces, created from superior corpses.