Maybe this is addressed somewhere but I haven't seen it yet. If elementals are being bound to transports against their will, why aren't all the good-aligned characters trying to end this forced servitude? Aren't the elementals essentially slaves?
In my game, I've addressed this by having the owners or operators of the transports make deals with the elemental to provide transport in exchange for something the elemental wants. I haven't quite come up with what elementals want yet but it hasn't really come up in game so it hasn't been important quite yet. I'm sure eventually I'll have to figure it out.
Do you play it as is in your game and everyone ignores the slavery or have you made a change similar to mine?
Counter Question:
In a world where we know that people in poor country are being exploited to the max so that we may buy cheaper clothes etc. Why dont we do anything about it.
Well we try, but its a tedius task, and alot of cruel buisness men out there.
And I imagine its like that in eberron as well, the gnomes guards the secret to elemental binding quite well. And I imagine that most people dont even know that elementals have a will of their own, they are monsters after all...
Actually, it seems from other posts that this topic has been hashed and rehashed over and over again so I apoligize for bringing it up again and retreading on old lines of battle.
I'm playing a skycaptain bard for Lyrandar and she has an amiable relationship with the fire elemental bound to her airship. Hell, she even has an avatar of the elemental as her familiar. The fire elemental is content to explore places and things it would never get a chance at doing on its own, and plus, I let it burn things with the ship's fire cannons. :D
This relationship was tested in-game when she finally managed to find her crashed ship in one of the Realms of Dread. (Long story short, her ship was caught in the Mourning blast which blasted her and her crew to Ravenloft.) She found her ship mostly intact, minus the elemental. It became free when the struts shattered, and as it rampaged, the local residents captured it for their own nefarious ends. It was bound into a grand bonfire which was used to "burn" food to their god, the Devourer, but we found out that they weren't burning the food but secretly stashing it away. I discovered that if we don't get the fire elemental back in time, it will be corrupted by Ravenloft's taint and become a pyre elemental. We infiltrated, battled and unleashed all kinds of shenanigans to repair the ship, rescue the elemental, escape with it and rebind it.
It wasn't pretty. Fun, and oft times hilarious, but not pretty. Right now, we're in Sigil about to sail the Astral Sea to an old and closed off world/sphere. IDK how that's gonna go about, and I am hoping the elemental will be able to move through the Astral Sea. -_-
I honestly believe that most pilots of elemental vessels develop a close friendly bond with their elementals. It's like when you have a spaceship with its own AI computer system. It is bound by its programming to obey you, but that doesn't mean both can't transcend that boundary to true friendship. sigh, I've watch to much Andromeda. lol
I've always hated the idea of thinking of elementals (or any spirit) as people in weird outfits. In my view they're so different form people that if the average Eberron dweller wouldn't even realize they were talking to an intelligent being even if they had some means to speak the language. The fire elemental running the airship your characters are on dosn't want to go home, rais some little embers and buy a nice house. It's an immortal being that wants to return to it's realm and do things it couldn't explain to a person in a hundred years.
A person might form some kind of bond with an elemental, but neither party really understands the other.
Maybe this is addressed somewhere but I haven't seen it yet. If elementals are being bound to transports against their will, why aren't all the good-aligned characters trying to end this forced servitude? Aren't the elementals essentially slaves?
Consider the answer to this question: Why aren't all good-aligned characters trying to end the forced servitude of horses and oxen being forced to pull carts and carry people against their will?
Most people of Eberron presumably consider elementals the same way they do horses and oxen, i.e. as creatures without a valid 'will', so that its therefore prefectly alright to 'enslave' them.
Before we get into arguments about how much of a will elementals actually have or whether they mind their 'enslavement' (which I recollect seeing lots of posts about in the past) let me quickly state that the previous paragraph is just about what the people of Eberron think (imo) , I'm not saying you (or your character for that matter) has to agree with them.
Yes, that's a good point and sorta goes to what I was talking about. Imagine spending a couple hours trying to convince everyone on the airship that the elemental is a "person" with all the rights and privileges there of. Then they try to talk to it. Even if they somehow managed to they couldn't make heads or tails of what it's going on about. I don't think most people would manage more empathy than they would for an ox if they were subject to a Speak With Animals effect.
Now, in my personal games I've usually played it that the elemental's form changes what it thinks it is. An elemental in a ship thinks of its self as a ship. An elemental in a weapon thinks of itself as a weapon. When it's first freed it's angry that someone changed it from a ship into some formless beast. Then it's mind starts to adjust and it becomes angry for being fooled. Then it becomes frightened of the world it finds itself in and lashes out at anything that's not like itself. Granted, that's not how it's usually written in the game's materials but I like it myself.
Hmm, I like that approach it also fits well with elementals trying to take over the ship now and then and the fact that non marked could try to control the ship. This would mainly be by imparting upon the elemental the need to go somewhere and more pleading than forcing it to do his bidding.
From there springs a character concept of a Genasi, actually a half-elf former Lyrandar whose ship got destroyed in the Last War. The elemental escaped and in the wreckage bound himself to the captain. Now the elemental and the captain both seek to be freed from each other and fly a ship together again.
The average elemental is not really a being with a distinct identity - more a discrete force of nature animated by a rudimentary intelligence but bound to an all-consuming instinct. While it has enough intellect to take direction, it has no goals of its own other than to enact that instinct by the most expedient way possible. Binders limit the avenues that this instinct can express itself, so that the path of least resistance is channeled into a productive use of energy.
At least, that's how a thaumatologist or magewright would explain it. Whether it's true or not varies by game, I suspect.
Maybe this is addressed somewhere but I haven't seen it yet. If elementals are being bound to transports against their will, why aren't all the good-aligned characters trying to end this forced servitude? Aren't the elementals essentially slaves?
In my game, I've addressed this by having the owners or operators of the transports make deals with the elemental to provide transport in exchange for something the elemental wants. I haven't quite come up with what elementals want yet but it hasn't really come up in game so it hasn't been important quite yet. I'm sure eventually I'll have to figure it out.
Do you play it as is in your game and everyone ignores the slavery or have you made a change similar to mine?
This had actually never occured to me in-game while running my 3.5e Eberron game, but one of my players (the lawful-good Cleric) picked up on it IMMEDIATELY. There was a lot of fast-talking on my part, a few Bluff rolls, and a mini-crusade to free all elementals.
Just goes to show that no amount of campaign planning survives first contact with the players.
I remember reading a short Fantasy story in which there was an elemental binder who opposed the hero of the story (his son). The son became a binder as well to better oppose his father, but he actually went to the elemental plane and discussed the practice with the elementals and to acquire direct aid from the elementals. One of the son's biggest allies was an elemental who aided the hero based on the promise that he would actually be summoned. The elemental wanted to see other worlds. While something that probably does not apply to the average elemental (hardly more intelligent then an animal, and I agree that binding those is no more slavery then using an ox), but it is certainly that could apply to the occassional intelligent and powerful elemental. What better way to explore the world then in the ship of an airship or elemental coach? ;)
In the book "Heirs of Ash" by Rich Wulf:
There is an air ship that has a Dryad that lives in the Mast of the ship and can communiate with the bound elemental. Its pretty cool how they interact.
*Sigh*
I feel the need to explain the difference between "sentient" and "sapient".
Sentience is the quality of feeling emotions recognizable by humans.
A dog is sentient. A fish is sentient. There's anecdotal evidence suggesting that an ant is sentient.
Sapience, however, is the quality to think and reason, as well as free will not dictated by instinct.
While it's arguable that dogs and horses qualify for this, and chimps definitely do (in my opinion), it is not a quality shared by elementals.
Why?
Because an elemental cannot be any different then what it's nature dictates. A fire elemental exists to burn things. An air elemental exists to fly and create winds. An earth elemental does...whatever earth does.
So no, I do not have any more problem with using elementals to power ships, anymore than I do using a very smart horse to pull a cart (I should know, given that my mother is a rancher). You should probably take care of it, treat it nicely and all. But binding it? Not an inherently good or bad act.
*Sigh*
I feel the need to explain the difference between "sentient" and "sapient".
Sentience is the quality of feeling emotions recognizable by humans.
A dog is sentient. A fish is sentient. There's anecdotal evidence suggesting that an ant is sentient.
Sapience, however, is the quality to think and reason, as well as free will not dictated by instinct.
While it's arguable that dogs and horses qualify for this, and chimps definitely do (in my opinion), it is not a quality shared by elementals.
Why?
Because an elemental cannot be any different then what it's nature dictates. A fire elemental exists to burn things. An air elemental exists to fly and create winds. An earth elemental does...whatever earth does.
So no, I do not have any more problem with using elementals to power ships, anymore than I do using a very smart horse to pull a cart (I should know, given that my mother is a rancher). You should probably take care of it, treat it nicely and all. But binding it? Not an inherently good or bad act.
Yet in D&D chimps are of animal level intelligence while elementals are at human level intelligence. At least that's how it was in 3.x. In 4e it's a different matter.
While it's arguable that dogs and horses qualify for this, and chimps definitely do (in my opinion), it is not a quality shared by elementals.
Why?
Because an elemental cannot be any different then what it's nature dictates. A fire elemental exists to burn things. An air elemental exists to fly and create winds. An earth elemental does...whatever earth does.
Where is this coming from? "Elementals do what elementals do, therefore they lack free will?" That's not an explanation, it's tautology and a fallacy.
Their typical behaviors aside, what indicates elementals cannot make choices? In fact, the MM entries on both the Archons and Elementals imply they do make choices - archons tend fight but will band together if presented with strong leadership, while elementals can enter into different arrangements, apparently at their choosing. Their mental stats start around 6 and go up, so there all well into the human range - children or better.
Also, how is free will relevant? Does one have the right to torture / enslave / kill simply because the victim cannot substantially alter its behaviors?
Real-world morality aside, the fact is that anyone within the setting who proposed that elementals were free-willed independent beings and that binding them as power sources was slavery would be seen as a crank. Any sort of crusade to free the elementals would be highly uncharacteristic even for a good character - especially for a lawful good character, in a society where elemental binding underpins much of the economy. In fact, given that elementals' first tendencies upon being freed from binding is to wantonly destroy everything in the immediate vicinity, expressing a desire to free them should produce in the general population roughly the same response as someone professing a desire to set off bombs in the subway would produce today.
Magic of Eberron, pg 34-35 has details on a group of Binders called the "Power of Purity". They very much believe on negotiating with the elementals in regards to their binding coming to common agreements rather than what they percieved as enforced servitude.
The people of Eberron wonder the same questions too it seems ;)
I've addressed the enslavement of elementals by having that be the topic of one of the student protests at Morgrave.
For my amusement, whenver my players go to the university, they have to make their way through a student protest. One time, it was a protest on the enslavement of elementals. My first group went around it using a lot of movement-related stuff, my second group started a riot.
With that said, I have to brag about one of my players. She wanted to play an airship pilot, and I had told her that there would be a rogue coming along, so please don't play a rogue.
Well, she decided to play a Shaman with a positive bond to the airship's elemental. The elemental manifests as her spirit-thingie in combat, and as a vageuly catlike small animal elsewhere. When the ship was docked, Kimvara (the spirit) flittered about the captain's cabin, blowing stuff around. Before they left Sharn, Kimvara wanted to see a play by that fallen-angel-type-lady (i tried to use the play to highlight the nationalistic tensions of the world. Instead, my players got hammered-drunk.) She described Kimvara as standing on the seat, with his "paws" on the seat in front of him, staring intently.
While it's arguable that dogs and horses qualify for this, and chimps definitely do (in my opinion), it is not a quality shared by elementals.
Why?
Because an elemental cannot be any different then what it's nature dictates. A fire elemental exists to burn things. An air elemental exists to fly and create winds. An earth elemental does...whatever earth does.
Where is this coming from? "Elementals do what elementals do, therefore they lack free will?" That's not an explanation, it's tautology and a fallacy.
You aren't dealing with the real world here.
As a ninja points out, an elemental, upon being released in the mortal coil, will immediately go into a destructive rage, although not to the extent of a demon.
They literally will not stop to negotiate, or do anything else then rage, in order to act out the uncontrolled element's nature.
Their typical behaviors aside, what indicates elementals cannot make choices? In fact, the MM entries on both the Archons and Elementals imply they do make choices - archons tend fight but will band together if presented with strong leadership, while elementals can enter into different arrangements, apparently at their choosing. Their mental stats start around 6 and go up, so there all well into the human range - children or better.
Archons are not elementals.
They were made from elementals, but they're really closer to intelligent golems.
I don't remember the specific article, but Dragon stated that the creation of an archon fundamentally changes the elemental's nature.
As for elementals, like is drawn to like. You don't see wolves banding together with foxes, even though they're both canines.
An intelligence score is an abstraction, and if anything, it's actually somewhat more accurate then the 3.5 system.
Also, how is free will relevant? Does one have the right to torture / enslave / kill simply because the victim cannot substantially alter its behaviors?
When did I say that?
I said the elementals aren't sapient, not that it was okay to be cruel to them!
Animal abuse is still abuse.
Actually, I think I specifically stated that you should be nice to the elemental powering your ship.
I really like the idea that some elementals are just forces of nature akin to an animal so utilizing one of those types to run your elemental-powered ship would be similar to a horse pulling a cart. Nobody really thinks of that as slavery (so long as the horse is well treated). I think I will go with this to avoid the enslavement issue.