The final climax will be the restoration of Cyre. The parties goal is to construct an eldritch machine that will begin reversing the effects of the Mournland (begin, it will take decades for it to reach completion) and to defend it when they turn it on.
I have made a list of interactions to guide the party and to fuel encounters. Very few motivations, even for the allies, are pure. Thoughts?
Allies:
Baron Jorlanna d'Cannith (seeks to consolidate power as matriarch)
King Boranel ir'Wynarn of Breland (guilt, wants to get rid of Cyre refugees)
King Kaius III (striving for peace)
Prince Oargev ir'Wynarn (seeks to reestablish Cyre)
other House leaders (a living Cyre is better for business)
Enemies:
Baron Zorlan d'Cannith (opposes Jorlanna, united with royal necromancer)
Count Vedim ir'Omik (eager to research undead)
Queen Aurala ir'Wynarn of Aundair (a rebuilt Cyre makes her war less likely)
Valenar elves (doesn't want interference maintaining holdings)
Lord of Blades (plans to maintain warforged nation)
Daelkyr and Quori (Mournland the land of madness and nightmare)
Although I want some "obvious" allies and enemies, I am also looking for them in the most unlikely of places. I like the Zorlan-Jorlanna interactions, as well as Aurala-Boranel, and even the Lord of Blades-Merrix or Zorlan-Kaius.
More ideas?
I've always had the idea in my head that the Dreaming Dark might view the Mourning as one of the worst things that could have happened on their watch. It effectively stopped the Last War, which otherwise might have raged on for years more and made Khorvaire all the more susceptible to Riedran "assistance"; after all, that's basically how they conquered Sarlona. Get them to beat each other up, to the point where they'll welcome you with open arms. I would think that the quori would much prefer that the threat of the Mournland either vanished (so the nations could get back to pummeling each other) or became understood/controllable by them, so they could use it to weaken Khorvaire in a more direct fashion. As it is now, I see them as being rather unhappy with the status quo.
In case you want more then the trip to the Eldeen Reaches, you can say that the cone is not enough - and other (less known) awakened plants need to be located in other exotic regions of Eberron (maybe those other awakened plants will not be so forthcoming in helping the PC and demand that some quest be done in exchange for their seed or simply just try to kill the PCs for there insolence).
. The PCs could need the help of the Raincallers to feed the walking forest. Some big creatures could attack them while they are on the move. Some ritual could be needed to breach the mist wall. etc.
Rekko
Could it be that, given the opportunity to restore Cyre, the PCs must chose to let the Mournland remain, in order to avert some greater, previously unforeseen evil/disaster? This could be tricky to implement, though, as players often make unexpected choices.
Would the Quori be looking to stop the activation of the device, or to perhaps take credit for it?
I like the idea of the quori wanted Cyre restored and encouraging the turmoil that would result. Imagine needing to save the Aurala from an Inspired who is advising Boranel! Or trying to incite Kaius to a future war, despite Kaius simply wanting to help restore peace with a living Cyre... I like it.
Would the Quori be looking to stop the activation of the device, or to perhaps take credit for it?
The Chamber and the Lords of Dust will definitely be meddling, but mostly peripherally. I already have a few "prophecies" outlined.
Maybe you can go with an eco-eldritch machine: the party should plant a cone from Oalian
Although I love the rebirth through Oalian idea, I might need to nab that for another time. The campaign is centered around House Cannith (and its role in the creation of the Mournland), and so it will truly need to be a machine.
Do you intend to allow the players to succeed? This would change the setting forever, at least in your games.
Could it be that, given the opportunity to restore Cyre, the PCs must chose to let the Mournland remain, in order to avert some greater, previously unforeseen evil/disaster?
I do intend to allow the players to succeed. One, the Mournland will continue to exist, even if the PCs are successful, for decades. It will take years for the mists to get pushed back, and years more working to rebuild Cyre. In terms of adventure possibilities, it won't change that much.
Introducing a wrinkle where restoring Cyre might create a greater catastrophe sounds... great. At the very least I could use some sidequests that will prevent said "greater disaster" from happening when the machine activates. Definitely a nuance I can weave in.
Introducing a wrinkle where restoring Cyre might create a greater catastrophe sounds... great.
Glad you like it. "Curing" the Mournland seems to be to great and wonderful a feat, after all, without ticking off the whole of Argonnessen, enabling an extraplanar invasion, or freeing an imprisoned Rajah. This is Eberron, afterall. Something monumentally horrible is always looming just a hair's breadth away.
At the very least I could use some sidequests that will prevent said "greater disaster" from happening when the machine activates. Definitely a nuance I can weave in.
Or, the resultant catastrophy could be slow enough in developing that there's time to do some damage-control and/or reverse it. These adventures could even be the province of new PCs, those destined to follow after the now-retired epics who healed Cyre.
Man, I can't wait for the ECG and EPG. We've put off jumping back into Eberron until they're released, in order to avoid mid-game retcons (and/or the desire to employ them). We're so close, now, and yet still too far for my liking...
First, you have the risk of letting them ruin entire nations if they so choose.
Second, there's not much they can't do on Khorvaire in epic level. And think about it, if you face someone who you know could destroy your kingdom with a snap, would you hire them and give them missions? I would personally just be so afraid of them...
Third, consider the dragons and the Lords of the Dust. If there's someone they're dealing with in epic level, those guys should be that someone, since they have the power to ask the players for a favor and make sure they work as they see fit, and also they have the reason to do so (as a manipulation of the Dragon Prophecy).
First, you have the risk of letting them ruin entire nations if they so choose.
Actually, mine do rule Q'barra. And why not? They certainly deserved it after protecting it for 20 levels from certain doom . And yes, they rule the whole of Q'barra-the former smuggler is the King and the kalashtar Dragon Shaman(yes, it was bak in 3.5) turned the schemes of the Talons of Tiamat(who manipulated to actually kill Rashaak) and the Gem Dragon project of the Inspired against them: she became a gem dragon(epic level, final quest) and actually supplanted Rashaak!
I may be biased but I personally believe the players should not be dealing too much with the Khorvairian nobels once they hit epic level.
First, you have the risk of letting them ruin entire nations if they so choose.
Second, there's not much they can't do on Khorvaire in epic level.
...
Third, consider the dragons and the Lords of the Dust.
...
To each DM their own, of course.
In our campaign, and I believe moreso in Eberron in general, political and social ramifications are much more prevalent. Sure, the PCs could physically overpower any ruler, but they live in a much larger, complex world than that.
First, supplanting a ruler means dealing with being a ruler and not adventuring.
Second, if the PCs take over Drooam, for instance - having thousands of monsters run amok in the region may be more than even a party of epic level characters to deal with.
A simple thought on why you still need to fear the 12 houses of commerce.
I may be biased but I personally believe the players should not be dealing too much with the Khorvairian nobels once they hit epic level.
I hear you. I'm leery of anything the irrevocably changes the face of the setting in ways that will be acutely felt in future games (ie-restoring the Mournland). That said, this thread is about ideas on how to facilitate Germytech's campaign that does feature this type of thing, so all we can do is be helpful.
Third, consider the dragons and the Lords of the Dust.
First, second and third. These guys would be the types, in my opinion, with whom epic level PCs would ultimately be tangling. You can add the Dreaming Dark, Vol, and similarly epic opponents to that list.
IMO at epic levels the PCs should still fear the rulers and leaders of nations and economic powerhouses because with all of that wealth they can have access to epic level NPCs and traps and threats that can cause your PCs woe. Plus scandal and political stringpulling can cause the PCs quite a headache.
I don't think there would be many epic-level opponents in my game, outside the setting's heavy-hitters mentioned above. If there are other epic-level adventurers out there, though, I guess they're bound to clash simply because of being "huge fish in a small pond".
As to political headaches, I don't think you'd be as affected at this point as you were even 5 levels prior. You're epic, now, virtually immortal. What hold do politics really have over you at this point? You play politics only when it suits you at this stage.
How could you continue adventuring if you **** of almost the entire economic structure. And no one want to buy from you, sell to you or do any other kind of trade with you?
At epic levels, who's going to trade with you anyway? You can't simply buy, sell and trade epic-level gear at market. Maybe you cut a deal with a dragon, maybe Cannith has an super-item in a vault somewhere, but really you don't need much of anything from anyone at this point. I'd think that humanoid mortals are quickly becoming inconsequential at this point.
A simple thought on why you still need to fear the 12 houses of commerce.
If any humanoids could make life inconvenient for PCs, I guess the dragonmarked houses would be the best candidates. I'd think, though, that they'd be more eager for your favor than you'd be for theirs by the time you've become a demigod/epic-whatever. You've likely, by this point, become something that hasn't been seen in ages amongst non-dragon mortals.
That's just my
According to Player's Guide to Eberron, there're no epic level characters at least recently, and if the PCs hit epic level, they're very likely to be the first epic characters in Eberron. Of course that said, the DM should feel free to break the limitations if they want other powerful NPCs to intervene. I just have a feeling that this goes beyond what Eberron is like.
Also, I personally believe epic characters will live even without any nation and the twelve houses. It is possible that the twelve houses may have sufficient power to match that of the epic PCs, but that means the houses put their resourses all together. The epic characters, if grouped correctly, can create their own magic and psionic items, can create powerful spells and machinery, and can survive any battle by escaping to other planes in the worst condition. So I personally feel even the entire continent of Khorvaire is no match for epic players without the dragons, the fiends or the quori intervening.
That said, it depends on large scales on what supplement books you allow the players to use. After all what I want to remind OP is, maintaining an epic level adventure is a tough job, so it would be necessary to think twice about whom the players deal with and what you use to balance the power they possess. It is very common that people abuse the power when they're overpowerful.
I am pretty confident that the 4E Eberron setting will have guidelines, suggestions, and opponents for epic level characters, at any rate.
It's not that epic level NPCs and threats don't exist in Eberron - it's that the political landscape makes NPCs doing the job unlikely, and the threats have more far reaching social consequences.
This is why I have appreciated the ideas regarding possible conflicts. The characters are from Aundair. Their Queen (with whom they have begun to interact) doesn't like them negotiating with Boranel and trying to get Cyre back up and running - it's counter to her goals. She has made things difficult for them in their home country, and I like the idea of her "turning a blind eye" when they face certain threats.
Any other ideas? Again, I really like the idea of the Dreaming Dark getting involved to help the PCs, and the PCs need to eventually decide whether they want that kind of help...
I
I don't think there would be many epic-level opponents in my game, outside the setting's heavy-hitters mentioned above. If there are other epic-level adventurers out there, though, I guess they're bound to clash simply because of being "huge fish in a small pond".
As to political headaches, I don't think you'd be as affected at this point as you were even 5 levels prior. You're epic, now, virtually immortal. What hold do politics really have over you at this point? You play politics only when it suits you at this stage.
At epic levels, who's going to trade with you anyway? You can't simply buy, sell and trade epic-level gear at market. Maybe you cut a deal with a dragon, maybe Cannith has an super-item in a vault somewhere, but really you don't need much of anything from anyone at this point. I'd think that humanoid mortals are quickly becoming inconsequential at this point.
If any humanoids could make life inconvenient for PCs, I guess the dragonmarked houses would be the best candidates. I'd think, though, that they'd be more eager for your favor than you'd be for theirs by the time you've become a demigod/epic-whatever. You've likely, by this point, become something that hasn't been seen in ages amongst non-dragon mortals.
That's just my
Even if your in the Epic levels commons sense says you should be wary of politicians and royals. One group against a nation is a tough fight even for an Epic group. There are unscrupulous adventurers out there that the rulers/politicans can hire to stop you. What does an Epic bad guy merc need?
Land, dragonshards, lordships, relics ect. The Aurums/Kingdoms/Dragonmarked House coffers are pretty expnasive I would imagine, I am sure they can make an arrangement with the Epic level cutthroats. ;) Hell they can offer the Epic mercs minor loot because the concept of killing the PCs and taking their EPIC loot might be enough of an incentive to work for the kingdoms/power brokers of EB.
To Germy: My group thinks in the same way. Just because they may outlevel a ruler or some of his/her guards means nothing. With their wealth having a high level bodyguard on hand is not out of the question. Not all adventuers are loot driven. An EPic NPC may help out a royal/power broker out of loyalty or a sense of duty.
Even if your in the Epic levels commons sense says you should be wary of politicians and royals. One group against a nation is a tough fight even for an Epic group.
True, but I can't imagine a circumstance in our games where one would be worried about "taking on a nation". Even if you could win such a battle, what would be the reward, and at what cost? It would be more likely that they'd be taking on epic level supernatural, draconic, or extraplanar opponents. Still, this is a valid point.
There are unscrupulous adventurers out there that the rulers/politicans can hire to stop you.
Are there? In 3.5E, there really weren't any Epic level heroes/mercs/whatnot running around. Some of us may have added them into our games, and no doubt for good reason, but those guys were "exceptions to the rules", so to speak.
It seems likely, now that Epic-tier is a standard part of the game, that we'll see some shift in this low-level approach in 4E Eberron. It doesn't have to change, seeing as we already have plenty of epic-level foes, but a change of some sort wouldn't surprise me.
It really just comes down to personal preference, I guess. If your PCs can reach epic levels, of course some other adventurers could do so. By the time I get to Epic, though, I don't want to fight adventurers, mercs, or whatever--I want to fight the Lords of Dust or the Dreaming Dark.
Hell they can offer the Epic mercs minor loot because the concept of killing the PCs and taking their EPIC loot might be enough of an incentive to work for the kingdoms/power brokers of EB.
I like this. A chance at obtaining such elusive and amazing gear would definitely motivate some. Nice.
I don't want to fight adventurers, mercs, or whatever--I want to fight the Lords of Dust or the Dreaming Dark.
And so do I, but there is also something satisfactory about finally being able to defeat those pesky guys in the competing adventure party that has been right in front of you so to speak all the time. Always managing to cripple your best laid plans somehow, and for a variation of reasons.
Are there? In 3.5E, there really weren't any Epic level heroes/mercs/whatnot running around. Some of us may have added them into our games, and no doubt for good reason, but those guys were "exceptions to the rules", so to speak.
Even though there were were none statted in 3.5 there were still normal BBEGs (Aurum, archmages, master villains) out in the world. At least in my game. To me the gameworld is not static. The threats level up with the pcs. A world where all the rulers and their minions stopped leveling at 10 seems rather boring. I did this in 3E and now in 4E so to me it is not a video game thing either. So there were supposed to be Epic heros and mercs in 3E but the DM was always supposed to place them in the game world.
Even though there were were none statted in 3.5 there were still normal BBEGs (Aurum, archmages, master villains) out in the world. At least in my game. To me the gameworld is not static. The threats level up with the pcs. A world where all the rulers and their minions stopped leveling at 10 seems rather boring. I did this in 3E and now in 4E so to me it is not a video game thing either. So there were supposed to be Epic heros and mercs in 3E but the DM was always supposed to place them in the game world.
I agree to an extent. skrapsan's point about finally defeating your foils fits well here. In general, though, I guess I just prefer the epic foes who are/were built in from the beginning: the Lords of Dust, the Dreaming Dark, Daelkyr, dragons, etc...
These are the guys who you've only been able to fight through proxy battles for 20 levels or more, and now you've become powerful enough to take the fight to their doorsteps. Fighting non-draconic mortals at this point just isn't to my taste. I agree it's legitimate, and I guess even to be expected in many campaigns.
It really just all depends upon who your foes were throughout the previous tiers. If you've been battling the Dreaming Dark, maybe you take the fight to Dal Quor. If it's been cultists dedicated to Rajahs, maybe you're battling powerful fiends, now. Daelkyr would naturally their lesser servants and cultists. If, though, you've been battling agents of the Aurum, maybe there are a few antagonists who've leveled parallel to your PCs, and are now also epic.
Again, I expect to see something said about this in the ECG, even if it is generally a matter of common sense. I wouldn't be surprised to see something pretty much mirroring what we've said: "Epic foes might be , or it might be campaign-long foils who've worked at counter-purpose agendas throughout and have leveled as your PCs have leveled."
Thanks for reminding me of the obvious.
I agree to an extent. skrapsan's point about finally defeating your foils fits well here. In general, though, I guess I just prefer the epic foes who are/were built in from the beginning: the Lords of Dust, the Dreaming Dark, Daelkyr, dragons, etc...
I don't think that one should have them as the final boss. But sort of like a miniboss. Someone who has chosen the side of the BBEGs and stayed there, someone you need to get through to get to the last final battle. Someone who finally after about 27-29 levels have stopped running and are standing their ground at long last. That is someone it is quite sweet to mop the floor with, and when you are done with this "warm up" you are ready for the big boss.
Anyway part of my point was that these foes level up at the same phase as you do. They are also part of the awesome people club. They only happen to have conflicting points of view.
Anyway part of my point was that these foes level up at the same phase as you do. They are also part of the awesome people club. They only happen to have conflicting points of view.
Yep, you're right. That would be a very gratifying set of enemies.
Sometimes I get into a mindset/funk and overlook the obvious, especially when I'm suffering from a pounding headache. Then I post, end up posting a few more times, leave for a few days, and come back wondering what the hell I was thinking. :P
While I do think monsters/immortals/whatever make the best epic enemies, I agree with the points you and Rauric have made.
I've spent too long away from the Eberron forums. Since there's generally not much going on in these parts, I've been mostly in the other forums. With the ECG and EPG finally drawing near, I figured I'd drop in, again. I'm glad to find that the Eberron crowd, along with the SWSE crowd, are still the most laid-back, helpful, and enjoyable people with whom to share ideas.
I look forward to many future conversations with all here.