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Excited about Paragon, Xen'drik

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Chigaru
Oct 19, 2010 16:10:13 So, for the first time in my personal running history, I've taken a party legitimately from level 1 to 9. They're getting all excited about Paragon Paths, which is great, and hooked themselves onto a Cannith expedition to Menechtarun to plunder some Giant tombs.

The encounters I've got planned for them involve an Emerald Claw ambush in Stormreach (EC's been after the party for holding onto a powerful draconic artifact, and there's a long, sordid history between the party and the EC), then a skill challenge as they travel through the jungles of Xen'drik, a drow ambush (well, several drow ambushes), another skill challenge as they travel through the desert and a finale battle against the mechanical guardians of the giant temple.

But I've got a few problems. Firstly, they're traveling with a couple of powerful NPCs, but I desperately want to avoid having the players feel useless or outshined. Does anybody have any ideas for this?

Secondly, I've never had great luck with skill challenges. How should I implement them in such a way that my players don't get confused or bored with the challenges part way through without just telling them what to roll?
#2
encard
Oct 21, 2010 3:07:18 I'd be curious to know who the powerful NPCs are and what their role is - that might determine it. I haven't played 4e Eberron, but at least in 3.x, characters were among the elite by level 6, and level 10+ NPCs were very rare. If the same holds for 4e Eberron, perhaps those NPCs have something else they need to do (something worth coming along on a miscellaneous expedition for), and will be leaving/rejoining the group periodically, or will be somehow occupied during much of the encounter time?
#3
Madfox11
Oct 21, 2010 4:36:41
I'd be curious to know who the powerful NPCs are and what their role is - that might determine it. I haven't played 4e Eberron, but at least in 3.x, characters were among the elite by level 6, and level 10+ NPCs were very rare. If the same holds for 4e Eberron, perhaps those NPCs have something else they need to do (something worth coming along on a miscellaneous expedition for), and will be leaving/rejoining the group periodically, or will be somehow occupied during much of the encounter time?

The basic is true for 4E, although the exact numbers have changed. Human city guards are level 3, and most of the common elite agents are around level 8. I would say that the PCs become elite once they hit paragon, and that level 14+ mortal NPCs are rare. So in that regards, I agree that few in the expedition would be on par with the paragon level PCs, let alone more powerful.

Having said that, why are the NPCs at the same combat prowess as the PCs? Did you already establish it? In 4e magical and political power is not directly tied to combat prowess. A master crafter of Cannith does not have to have a level, and still be able to perform high level rituals, repair arcane engines, craft high level magic items and know obscure bits of arcane lore that would do an arch wizard proud. So my best advice is to make these NPCs powerful where it matters for the story (crafters, ritualists, political influence - or at least on par with the PCs) and make them weak in regards to combat. If that is impossible, because the PCs already observed them in action, I would take a look at the companion character rules in DMG2. It creates characters on par in power with the PCs, but easier to run, and hence also unlikely to outshine a PC due to a lack of versatility.
#4
unrulycow
Oct 29, 2010 15:18:19 check out newbie dm and in particular, critical hits skill challenge articles. critical-hits.com/features/skill-challen...

newbiedm.com/2009/09/05/skill-challenges...
#5
PJammaGod
Oct 31, 2010 0:06:08 I'd recommend you also look at the motivations behind these NPC's joining the group on their trek to Xen'drik. It should be remembered that Xen'Drik is beyond the grasp of civilisation for the most part. So for the civilised and cultured races of Eberron, they're unlikely to abandon their creature comforts without good reason.

In addition Xen'drik has the (deserved) reputation as a place where people die... in drives. It's dangerous, healing or resurrection magic is in short supply. The entire continent seems to work against the adventurer's. So unless you've got a deathwish (which you need for D&D :P), why would you risk your life to travel through Xen'Drik.

Yes these NPC's may be powerful people (relatively speaking), but only a fool travel's Xen'Drik without very good reason. The PC's may have a good motivation, but think about it from the perspective of your NPC's ;) . It let's you also avoid the cagey issue of power level (I'm looking at your Dragonball Z).
#6
Chigaru
Nov 02, 2010 19:28:50 The two primary NPCs are a veteran adventurer, Myrindar d'Cannith (artificer), and a veteran of the Last War, a Cyran Warforged named Legion (fighter/knight). The players haven't personally seen them be kickass or anything, but Myrindar has professed to be a long-time explorer of Xen'drik and Legion is so named because he single-handedly took on a legion of Aundairians during the Last War (albeit that's a bit of an exaggeration).

And honestly, the party likes the NPCs as badasses. And Myrindar is the expedition lead. The only reason the party is there is to make some money and build connections for an eventual trip to Argonessen. They're well aware of the dangers of Xen'drik, of course, but money's a powerful motivator.

The rest of the NPCs are scholar-adventurers that are going to act primarily as red shirts, but the party doesn't know that yet.
#7
Madfox11
Nov 03, 2010 8:27:54
A good tactic is also to split up the group. For example, something could have kidnapped several non-combatant NPCs. Of course, you could send the NPCs after them, but why not let them do the boring thing and guard the remaining NPCs while the PCs are off rescuing the kidnapped ones?

I also often use off-camara fighting. The NPCs are bussy with their fight, and the PCs with theirs. If the PCs win, so do the NPCs, if the PCs loose, so do the NPCs. Since these two badass NPCs are likely to be of the same level as the PCs that would work. If they are higher level, I usually simply use the "you can be only at so many places at once" reason to make sure the PCs still shine. For example, the badass NPCs are dealing with the leaders of the drow assault force, but while doing so, the rest of the raiders are still attacking the caravan and unless the PCs intervene a lot of civilians are going to get hurt.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Chigaru Oct 19, 2010 16:10:13	So, for the first time in my personal running history, I've taken a party legitimately from level 1 to 9. They're getting all excited about Paragon Paths, which is great, and hooked themselves onto a Cannith expedition to Menechtarun to plunder some Giant tombs. The encounters I've got planned for them involve an Emerald Claw ambush in Stormreach (EC's been after the party for holding onto a powerful draconic artifact, and there's a long, sordid history between the party and the EC), then a skill challenge as they travel through the jungles of Xen'drik, a drow ambush (well, several drow ambushes), another skill challenge as they travel through the desert and a finale battle against the mechanical guardians of the giant temple. But I've got a few problems. Firstly, they're traveling with a couple of powerful NPCs, but I desperately want to avoid having the players feel useless or outshined. Does anybody have any ideas for this? Secondly, I've never had great luck with skill challenges. How should I implement them in such a way that my players don't get confused or bored with the challenges part way through without just telling them what to roll?
#2 encard Oct 21, 2010 3:07:18	I'd be curious to know who the powerful NPCs are and what their role is - that might determine it. I haven't played 4e Eberron, but at least in 3.x, characters were among the elite by level 6, and level 10+ NPCs were very rare. If the same holds for 4e Eberron, perhaps those NPCs have something else they need to do (something worth coming along on a miscellaneous expedition for), and will be leaving/rejoining the group periodically, or will be somehow occupied during much of the encounter time?
#3 Madfox11 Oct 21, 2010 4:36:41	I'd be curious to know who the powerful NPCs are and what their role is - that might determine it. I haven't played 4e Eberron, but at least in 3.x, characters were among the elite by level 6, and level 10+ NPCs were very rare. If the same holds for 4e Eberron, perhaps those NPCs have something else they need to do (something worth coming along on a miscellaneous expedition for), and will be leaving/rejoining the group periodically, or will be somehow occupied during much of the encounter time? The basic is true for 4E, although the exact numbers have changed. Human city guards are level 3, and most of the common elite agents are around level 8. I would say that the PCs become elite once they hit paragon, and that level 14+ mortal NPCs are rare. So in that regards, I agree that few in the expedition would be on par with the paragon level PCs, let alone more powerful. Having said that, why are the NPCs at the same combat prowess as the PCs? Did you already establish it? In 4e magical and political power is not directly tied to combat prowess. A master crafter of Cannith does not have to have a level, and still be able to perform high level rituals, repair arcane engines, craft high level magic items and know obscure bits of arcane lore that would do an arch wizard proud. So my best advice is to make these NPCs powerful where it matters for the story (crafters, ritualists, political influence - or at least on par with the PCs) and make them weak in regards to combat. If that is impossible, because the PCs already observed them in action, I would take a look at the companion character rules in DMG2. It creates characters on par in power with the PCs, but easier to run, and hence also unlikely to outshine a PC due to a lack of versatility.
#4 unrulycow Oct 29, 2010 15:18:19	check out newbie dm and in particular, critical hits skill challenge articles. critical-hits.com/features/skill-challen... newbiedm.com/2009/09/05/skill-challenges...
#5 PJammaGod Oct 31, 2010 0:06:08	I'd recommend you also look at the motivations behind these NPC's joining the group on their trek to Xen'drik. It should be remembered that Xen'Drik is beyond the grasp of civilisation for the most part. So for the civilised and cultured races of Eberron, they're unlikely to abandon their creature comforts without good reason. In addition Xen'drik has the (deserved) reputation as a place where people die... in drives. It's dangerous, healing or resurrection magic is in short supply. The entire continent seems to work against the adventurer's. So unless you've got a deathwish (which you need for D&D :P), why would you risk your life to travel through Xen'Drik. Yes these NPC's may be powerful people (relatively speaking), but only a fool travel's Xen'Drik without very good reason. The PC's may have a good motivation, but think about it from the perspective of your NPC's ;) . It let's you also avoid the cagey issue of power level (I'm looking at your Dragonball Z).
#6 Chigaru Nov 02, 2010 19:28:50	The two primary NPCs are a veteran adventurer, Myrindar d'Cannith (artificer), and a veteran of the Last War, a Cyran Warforged named Legion (fighter/knight). The players haven't personally seen them be kickass or anything, but Myrindar has professed to be a long-time explorer of Xen'drik and Legion is so named because he single-handedly took on a legion of Aundairians during the Last War (albeit that's a bit of an exaggeration). And honestly, the party likes the NPCs as badasses. And Myrindar is the expedition lead. The only reason the party is there is to make some money and build connections for an eventual trip to Argonessen. They're well aware of the dangers of Xen'drik, of course, but money's a powerful motivator. The rest of the NPCs are scholar-adventurers that are going to act primarily as red shirts, but the party doesn't know that yet.
#7 Madfox11 Nov 03, 2010 8:27:54	A good tactic is also to split up the group. For example, something could have kidnapped several non-combatant NPCs. Of course, you could send the NPCs after them, but why not let them do the boring thing and guard the remaining NPCs while the PCs are off rescuing the kidnapped ones? I also often use off-camara fighting. The NPCs are bussy with their fight, and the PCs with theirs. If the PCs win, so do the NPCs, if the PCs loose, so do the NPCs. Since these two badass NPCs are likely to be of the same level as the PCs that would work. If they are higher level, I usually simply use the "you can be only at so many places at once" reason to make sure the PCs still shine. For example, the badass NPCs are dealing with the leaders of the drow assault force, but while doing so, the rest of the raiders are still attacking the caravan and unless the PCs intervene a lot of civilians are going to get hurt.