Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 llazaarprince Mar 28, 2008 9:31:03	While the 5 nations speak the same language and are genetically the same sub race, there are many hints to differing looks and maybe even avergae heights and weights. The Cannith House is described as being mostly red heads. The Cyrans are described as having dark hair(with the occasional white haired sorcerer) From the drawings you get the impression that Brelanders are brown skinned and Aundarians may have an olive type complexion while Karnns are paler. Anybody want to come up with the a list of things that can describe other things of this nature. I found this the most dissapointing and downright maddening thing about the 5 Nations book. I am a restaurant consultant so I loved the fact they described typical foods for all 5 nations, but then they were extremely erratic describing body and hair types. As much as i love the food details and the sayings, the latter is more important for a rich, believable campaign. Maybe from reading all the novels one shoudl know. But for what that book costs it should be in there.
#2 imal Mar 28, 2008 9:49:24	A restaurant consultant needs to know hair and skin types? Good thing I feast on Chinese and pizza exclusively... Anyways, I figure the best way to imagine the way people look is to read into the description of their home country. Their artwork, food, and architecture, as well as their government can give you an idea of what RL country the Eberron country was based on. I get a Medieval/Renaissance Germany vibe with a little Soviet Russia from Karrnath and an Atlantean/Mediterranean feeling from Cyre. Maybe more along the Greek lines of things. Aundair gets a general "France" rating. See what I'm getting at?
#3 llazaarprince Mar 28, 2008 10:27:46	Heard. But being based on a certain European culture doesnt mean you should make them look like that same culture. Actually, quite the opposite because then they just become mock shadows of France, Germany, Russia, England etc. While the similarities are certainly there, i am most sure that direct correlations were not in the intentions of Baker and the creators of Eberron. See what im getting at? So again, if your popping the price list on a book that basically tells you quirks and customs of a few fantasy nations, some physical traits should be there. I dunno but things like broad shoulders for brelanders, long hawk noses for Karnns, steely blue eyes for Thranes..etc etc. Again i love the food and beverage details, but when all 5 nations eat "hearty and rich foods" with subtle variations and a few fave dishes, that could be put in a single sidebar while the physical traits get the paragraph per chapter. But the point is not to trash a very good book. The point is if anyone knows or has a small list of these traits.
#4 kelvinaw273 Apr 06, 2008 7:58:41	I think it is not so much omitted as deliberately ignored, RW race issues being what they are. So I would answer: you can look like whatever you want, or the DM can ascribe certain skin-tones and hair colours as he or she sees fit. With travel being common, anyone can look like they come from anywhere anyway ...
#5 Syltorian Apr 06, 2008 11:08:15	There is the issue of political correctness, and this is a very good one. You don't want people taking it as an attack that, say Thranes or Karrns are cast as such-and-such a real world race or ethnicity. Fortunately, there are good in-game reasons not to do that: humans do not come from Khorvaire. They are emigrants from Sarlona. So I'd say that Sarlona is where you get differences based on where people are from: say, without having anything in the sources to go on, Corvagurans are dark-skinned and Rhiavaar are fair-skinned and blond (with the usual variations and exceptions found everywhere). Admittedly, this is shoving the problem over to a different continent, but fewer people care about Corvagura and Rhiavaar than Thrane or Karrnath. In Khorvaire, the nations are mixed. Look at Thrane: Cardinal Krozen seems to be fair-skinned, and I would not be surprised if he is steely-eyed. But Jaela Daran is described as dark-skinned. The two best known people of one nation are of utterly different genetic backgrounds - and I'd say that this is true in most nations. Admittedly, this has happened 3000 years ago, and I am no expert whether genetics change that rapidly. Still, there may be villages or areas within each nation where one background or another dominates. Not all emigrants mixed; the Khunan in what is now Valenar kept to themselves, and much of Lhazaar is Rhiavaar, if I recall correctly; but such differences are usually not bound to the nations as such. Besides, what do the nations mean? Half of what was Thrane before the war is now in Aundair, and vice-versa. Karrnath may have stayed more or less the same, but the central nations have ended up trading much of their territory. So are people from Passage 'genetically' Thranes or Aundairians? Or Brelish? This is perhaps comparable to Alsace in our world. Do you represent them as a French stereotype or as a German? A mixture? Their own thing? Also, the nations are large. If stereotypes exist, they also exist within these nations. To make another real-world comparison: A frenchperson from the Midi may or may not look the same as a Parisian or a Normand. Why should someone from Karlakton look the same as someone from Rekkenmark - they are quite far apart. The same could, of course, be said about food. Provencal food and Normand food have little in common, neither shares much with Alsatian, and crêpes are found mostly in Brittany. As for the Houses: you'd get more links there. They are extended families. However, a House does not equal a Family; most are made up of numerous family groups. For instance, if Cannith is famous for its red hair - maybe that is only the Vown family. The other families may not have that attribute. The clearest example here is Tharashk; some of their members have tusks and grey-green skin, and some don't. So, personally and IMC: The nations are far too mixed to tell simply by their looks where people are from. You'd get it from the accent - and then it might be difficult, because the Wroat accent and the Sharn accent might be quite different, never mind the Vathirond one. You get it from gestures, clothing, and cultural behaviour. The houses show more in common, but they differ by family within the house, and by campaign, depending on how players want to describe their characters, and whether they want or don't want to be different from the 'standard'. I confess that I myself use 'stereotypical' elements to describe members of the dragonmarked houses, to have people recognise (or guess) at, say, Orien ancestry. But this is not something I have, or would like to see set in stone. For instance, if the books decided that Orien is fair-skinned, black-haired, but a player (or I myself) want to play a heir who is dark-skinned, but for whatever reasons of character background still a typical heir... well, as a DM, I can simply go with that, and take it into account for the other Oriens in the campaign. If the next campaign a player wants to play a fair-skinned, blonde Orien, I'll adjust. I'd be personally irritated if someone told me I had to play someone blond simply because I'm playing a Lyrandar, or that I must not play someone blond because I'm playing a Tharashk. ("Had" and "must" are strong words, if this were canon, WotC would not force me to play so, but I'd have to change the books; while I'm ready to do that, I still prefer as little intrusion as possible into my PC customisation... while hugely appreciating the background bits on food etc).
#6 llazaarprince Apr 06, 2008 14:52:00	Oh no agreed and i dont want to be misundertood. I am most definately not looking to make all Brelanders or all dragonmarked House Medani's look alike. I know the five nations have a common ancestry and travel and such have ben common. But 3K years IS MORE THAN enough for certain body types, personalities and hair colors to dominate. Dont we already have dominant physical traits in certain areas of the US? The east coast has more red heads in the the upper New England, the African Americans tend to be darker on the east coast, hispanics are taller on the east coast etc..In the mid west blondes tend to have whispier hair, the men tend to be bigger, inetrracial features are much rarer, etc. You can go on, and while these are definately not set rules they are tendencies that are there in a what a 300 yr old nation?
#7 Edymnion Apr 07, 2008 12:10:45	Generally speaking there aren't any regional "flavors" of humans. Humanity came over from Sarlona in mixed bunches, they migrated into all of Khovaire at the same time (as in, each mix moved out with the others). So really, there is no "Cyrians are all red haired, green eyed with freckles and worry about people stealing their lucky charms, while Brelanders are all overweight with acne, and Aundarians are all skinny with excessive armpit hair" type distinctions.
#8 llazaarprince Apr 07, 2008 17:07:08	But thats not true. Cyrnas ARE described as being predominantly tall and graceful and lean with 2 dominant hair types. Its in the 5 nations book. So where oh where is the explanation for Cyre having dominant traits and the rest not having? I hate to sound condescending but it sure as heck seems like Im getting condescending answers here.
#9 Bobfred21 Apr 07, 2008 20:12:45	I'm going to have to side with Lhazaar Prince on this one guys. Politics, location and daily habits all effect how a general populace looks. Lhazaar Prince isn't asking for absolute rules, he wants some general guidelines for what might be the case. Again Lhazaar Prince is not asking for rules that each and every individual is bound by, of course they're are unique individuals of all different kinds living in every country. The Karrnathi for example, are likely to be particularly well built given that each and every single Karnnathi citizen spends a mandatory four years in the military - they're likely to have had to do some more physical activity and keep in good shape for the duration of their service. A city like Sharn isn't going to be dominated by any one type of person, at least not by a large amount, it'd be like any large city in a culturally diverse society, to use a Canadian example: Toronto. All the same, there may be certain race distinctions between class and where a person might live in Sharn, I'm not as up to date on the setting as most of you, but I'd imagine the wealthier people of Sharn enjoy a lot of very tasty, very expensive food -ie. the upper class are likely to be chubbier, have more acne problems, etc. Also, the upper class I think it would be likely to be mostly actual long term citizens of Breland, from here you could choose to extrapolate a general appearance that might be common to the Brelish. Or take Aundair for instance, because they have such a strong agricultural side to their society it seems likely to me that many people would be working on farms for large portions of the day, ie. they're likely to get more physical work then people living in a city and since they spend so much time in the sun I'd find it likely that they have toned skin tones and probably lighter hair bleached by the sun. Also, the Aundairians are likely to be fit in different ways then the Karnnathi. The Karnnathi is probably built for combat, whereas the Aundairian is likely just to be in good shape in a fairly well rounded way, trim and fit, as opposed to the Karnnathi's hulking muscular stereo type. This isn't to say that other types don't exist in Aundair, of course Aundair has major cities and theres people of all kinds in Aundair but Mr. No Name "red shirt" Aundairian guy is likely to be a farmer and this is what we can extrapolate from that. Also, look at the Lhazaar Principalities: This one really could go anywhere, given that there is such a strong tradition of piracy I'd have to assume that the water doesn't get cold enough to freeze around those parts, so again I'd expect to see darker skin, depending on how dark the hair colour can vary really, I'd expect the really dark people to have dark hair, much like they do on Earth. Also, the lack of a central government and the focus on piracy tells me that the Lhazaar principalities are likely to be more rag-tag and a little less focussed on personal hiegiene then I'd expect say, a Thranish priest to be. Because of the warm climate I'd expect clothing acclimatized to warmer weather, lighter, more breezy clothing, probably less of it then you'd expect in a colder climate. For some reason I seem to recall Q'barra having a higher percentage of people with darker skin, in this way I'd expect the climate to be even warmer then the Lhazaar principalities. Thus dark skin is usually acompanied by darker hair, given that's it's a frontier I'd expect simple clothing possibly with some little additions you can find around a jungle fairly easy. Now the climate of Eberron I'm not entirely sure of, we know that going South get's warmer as Xen'drik the tropical jungle continent is on that side, however, we also know that it stays warm enough in the Lhazaar principalities that water doesn't freeze (albeit salt water), and Q'barra has a tendency to be even warmer. Given this, I would expect that the ocean currents have a strong relation to the distribution of warmth, it would make sense to me that the entire eastern coast of Khorvaire is skirted by a warm current which causes the land itself to be warmer in turn. Thus we can deduct that the Valenar Elves are likely live in a fairly warm climate, and from pictures they do seem to be more tanned then normal Elves in general. We also know that the Valenar Elves are a warrior culture people, I would expect a trim and fit population, I don't see Elves being genetically predisposed to being hulking smashers, so basically what we find in Valenar are typical Elves with a bit darker skin. This is all I can come up with off the top of my head and of course, all of it is speculation but it's not blind speculation. If you don't agree with categorizing people, then A. you probably don't understand the intent of this thread, and most of the nay sayers so far to me seem to be in this boat to me, or B. this thread isn't for you. Not to insult, just saying what I'm seeing here. Now, I would hope that what I have suggested here will help some people, and if not, well I enjoyed thinking this up and it's not like anyone is being forced to use my ideas anyway, so all in all, no harm done.
#10 Syltorian Apr 08, 2008 3:13:41	I hate to sound condescending but it sure as heck seems like Im getting condescending answers here. I don't think you are getting any condescending answers... at least, that's not the way I intended mine to sound, nor is it the way I read any of the answers; yours included. I'm sorry if you feel otherwise. This is all I can come up with off the top of my head and of course, all of it is speculation but it's not blind speculation. If you don't agree with categorizing people, then A. you probably don't understand the intent of this thread, and most of the nay sayers so far to me seem to be in this boat to me, or B. this thread isn't for you. Not to insult, just saying what I'm seeing here. Or C. you understand the intent of the OP, but do not believe anything can be worked out as easily as that. Perhaps we cannot offer the traits the OP wants because we see them as improbable for reasons we outline, rather than click reply because we have not offended anyone yet today. I believe that any explanation why a certain question cannot be answered is useful. Lhazaar Prince asked for two things. His first question was why Five Nations failed to address ethnical and racial stereotypes, except on rare occasions. That question was answered. Maybe not correctly (only the authors of the book could do that), but educated guesses as far as the posters of those answers are concerned. Part of it involves the above suggestions why such types do not make sense (not that this has ever prevented stereotypes in the real world). But this may be opinions. The main answer however was provided with the reference to political correctness. You may or may not agree with this having an impact on a fantasy setting, but it is a problem that Wizards, and many other people and organisations in our world, are concerned about enough not to go there. The second question was whether anyone had a list or suggestions for physical attributes associated with each or some of the five nations and the dragonmarked houses. The general answer to this question was 'no'. But people went beyond simply saying no, and explained why. I answered the second part of that question by pointing out that most Houses are made up of multiple families, and that some traits may be associated with one sub-group but not another. I also wrote that I do have certain attributes for each House, but that they change on my whim whenever I create a character (PC or NPC). They may be consistent within any given campaign, but remain both unofficial (which LhazaarPrince would not mind, given that he asks for this), but most importantly, they are not set in stone and are utterly arbitrary and subject to change, so all I could have done is create (or link to) a list of physical attributes and tell him to pick anew for every campaign, or tell him that my Orien are fair-skinned people with dark skin, sky-brown eyes and blonde, raven hair. That did not seem to be what he wanted, so I explained my way of dealing with this subject instead. I agree it does not offer a perfect answer to what he wanted, but it explains why I cannot provide one. As for the nations, that question too has been answered. the Sarlonan emigration argument has been countered by the OP, and I believe successfully, by saying that variations exist in 300-year-old US (500 if you count from the discovery, rather than the independence, so they should have developped in 3000 year-old Khorvaire). But the question has also been addressed by pointing out that there are other problems that mean that posters here as a rule do not have stereotypes, or at least not stereotypes bound to the huge nations as such. I may have been wrong to explain why I do not have national stereotypes. It may have been more proper to simply ignore the question and not reply to the thread. However, I thought it helpful to explain my view, rather than tell myself that this thread was not for me, since I cannot address the question directly. In some cases, they answer to a question unfortunately means explaining why there is no answer (or rather, why a specific poster thinks there is no answer), and the first question LhazaarPrince asked (why are there no descriptions of this kind in Five Nations for the major part) ties into this. People may or may not agree with my arguments. They certainly do not alleviate the OP's frustration (OP here meaning any OP, not LhazaarPrince specifically); I can sympathise with that. But such answers can be useful, because they often provide ways to understand problems better, and perhaps even to solve them. To reiterate my points. 1. The Nations are Huge. The OP answered my post by saying that there are variations in the population in the US. I cannot comment on that, as I do not live in the States - I concede the point that the 3000 year period since the Sarlonan exodus allows for the creation of variations - but it serves another of my points: I mentioned myself that in France, you find variations between people from the Midi, Paris, Normandie, Bretagne, Pays Basque, Alsace, and so forth. The same could be said about virtually every other country. Your points on climate and culture are well taken; but do they really apply to a nation as large as Breland? Or rather to smaller divisions within that country? You yourself mention people from Sharn and the cultural reasons why they might have (in some classes) certain features. But what about other Brelish? Is a human from the Dagger River (not Sharn itself) going to look the same as someone from near Black Pit or the Thrane border? 2. There are Sub-cultures We know from the source material, that southern Cyre (now Valenar) had a completely different culture than central Cyre (now the Mournland). The southerners were of almost exclusive Kunan descend, it seems. They also seem to have kept to themselves and engaged in fairly little mixing with other humans, whom they seem to have hated. The same could be extended to other areas. Before the advent of Galifar, Sharn was conquered by Wroat. Other sub-cultures almost certainly exist. Similarily, Five Nations explains how Sigilstar in Thrane is quite different from most of Thrane, at least culturally (doesn't mention physical traits, of course), even if they have the best examples of Thranish architecture. 3. The Borders have Shifted. Fifty years ago, that Brelish from the Thrane border in pt.1 might have been a Thrane from the Brelish border, and fifty years before that, an Aundairian. Likewise, we know that Passage and Arcanix - one of the prime reasons why Aundair is so good at arcane magic - was in Thrane. What do the farmers around that area look like? Thrane or Aundairian? If the answer is that they look like farmers (based on your argument from occupation and lifestyle, which is a valid one), then can you really tell a Thrane, a Brelish and an Aundairian farmer from the same climate zone apart? Add to this that we know of large numbers of refugees in some cases (Q'Barra, in the ECS; some worshippers of the Silver Flame moving to Thrane, unofficially, as an explanation offered by Hellcow why the Thrane armies may have acted the way they were described in Forge of War after the advent of the Theocracy). So, to sum up, I do not disagree with assigning stereotypes based on origin in Eberron. Mind you, I still do not believe in the validity of stereotypes in real-life, but I cannot deny they exist as ideas, and either way that was not the question. I am simply of the opinion that doing so does not work based on the huge nations, as they stand in 998 YK. You need to turn to much smaller parts, such as Thaliost as opposed to Daskara or Lathleer or Marketplace. Thaliost-Marketplace is nearly 600 miles apart as the dragonhawk flies - about the distance between Rome and Prague. Why should the Thaliostians look like Thranes? They aren't Thranes, except by an accident of politics and warfare. Why should they look like Aundairians? They were part of that realm, and indeed they are the ancient capital, but they are seperated by natural barriers (the Trumpet/Starpeak Mountains and the Silver Wood) from the rest of that nation. They have a different climate due to the proximity of the Scion's Sound and the cold winds from the Frostfell. Do people from Rekkenmark, just opposite Thaliost, look that much different from Thaliostians? Do they look similar to Aturians, who live in the constant shadow of the Ashen Spires and hardly see any sunlight, even if the inhabitants of both went through military service? With this in mind, I'd find it much easier to answer the question "what do the humans of Khunan culture in Valenar look like?". They are an isolated community on an acceptably "small" geographical area with approximately the same climate and culture throughout. Or "What are the defining traits associated with the Thaliost peninsula?" The same holds true for them as what I said about the Khunan. There are still no official answers to this that I am aware of (though the Valenar articles might have something); the political correctness principle might apply again, but here we can do some work: Khunan lies in the south of Sarlona, in Syrkarn to be exact, quite close to the Equator; so by comparison with our world, people are more likely to be dark-skinned and dark-haired. They may show certain serpentine features, depending on how far you want to push the yuan-ti empire aspect and its impact on the human population. It's a realm of grasslands, although I don't know whether Mongolian or Hunnic features are the result of such an environment or culture. Three thousand years or so of being farmers, relatively poor and under the yoke of Cyre, could be added to describe their physique. As for Thalosians: The conditions of their environment - the cold winds from the Frostfell, the current poverty and oppression in Thaliost could account for specific types that are found in neither Aundair or Thrane on a common basis. On the other hand, until the White Arch Bridge blew up, they were one of the most important crossroads of Khorvaire, so they may show a much greater variety than any other place safe perhaps Sharn or Stormreach.
#11 Bobfred21 Apr 09, 2008 13:13:21	Though I wont change my mind or retract the points I made, I'd like to apologize for being a bit of a jerk about it.
#12 Edymnion Apr 09, 2008 20:03:41	Yes, Khovaire is slightly larger than the continental United States. Can you tell just by looking at someone if they are from Maine, Florida, or California? Assuming they were all dressed the same? And with travel being fairly constant all through the history, there would not really be any areas isolated enough to develop overtly regional traits (like you see going from Canada to say, Mexico). Not being condescending, but its the same kind of thing.
#13 Ogiwan Apr 10, 2008 8:29:27	Well, if they're talking about the weather, you can definitely tell where they're from...down here in TN, well, I had someone apologize to me for having me "stand out in the cold".....of 60 degrees.
#14 llazaarprince Apr 17, 2008 23:04:15	Now we're talkin. Good posts guys, thanks, those ideas help.
#15 dr._benway Apr 30, 2008 4:04:45	Yes, Khovaire is slightly larger than the continental United States. Can you tell just by looking at someone if they are from Maine, Florida, or California? We Mainers can sense each other like Immortals from Highlander actually... Makes it so we dont shoot each other while hunting lobsters on our 4 wheelers. DocB :88E: vs :coolcthul Who shall prevail?
#16 elrodian Apr 30, 2008 15:39:55	Syltorian and Bobfred21 have good points and u are both right. Syltorian the nations have changed and they are big and so they do not have a set type. Bobfred21 is right becaues there are types but more then one. Like LlazaarPrince second post said people form the east cost have fire hair then other places so that it is the same in the 5 nations. With the house i would have to say that they have some thing in common with each other like Cannith most might have red hair but they might not all look like each other then the red hair. You can find this in the elven lines as well. The elves line are made up of many different families but they can share hair color or eye color.