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Freaked out by FRPG

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
thaliost
Sep 18, 2008 9:49:01 Found no support for evil Gods' followers. I mean, yes there're evil Gods specified, but no class features and feats related to them so far (as far as I've seen).
Is Wizards really thinking that people play D&D only to be heroes not villains? I feel ****** off and anxious to know if EBPG will be guided by the same principles.
#2
ChrisTheS
Sep 18, 2008 10:08:36 Given that, even with the vastly reduced pantheons, there are a heck of a lot more gods in the Realms than in Eberron, I wouldn't be too worried. The current main book specifies only 7 faiths with a grand total of 20 divine sources. The Realms guide has 18 divinity feats in it, which doesn't begin to cover all the potential deities - so, if we assume parity for the Eberron guide (and leave out Khyber cults, the Path of Light, and possibly the Undying Court), that's enough for the Dark Six and Vol to be adequately represented alongside the Host and the Flame.
#3
Alas
Sep 18, 2008 10:23:33 Has there been much support for PC followers of the Dark Six to date? I don't recall much more than a few feats and a prestige class in Faiths of Eberron. I'm sure that the Six will get a decent write-up in the general source book, and we can reasonably expect the player's guide to include channel divity feats for at least the Traveler and Vol. Eberron has historically exhibited ambiguity about the deities and ambivalence towards alignment; I don't see anything in the new edition to discourage that.
#4
bossemeyer
Sep 18, 2008 13:20:20 All i know is they need the Dark 6 because they are part of the Host as any other, while since the schism they have been "cast" out they are to be respected the same as any other god.

I always viewed Religion in Eberron like the Ancient Greeks, you make offerings to the good gods to bring them into your home and you appease the Evil to keep them out.

And the Traveler better be Neutral and not show up as Evil... and i hope the Shadow is the only Chaotic Evil since all the other were Neutral Evil before...

But i have Faith (hehehe) in Keith to keep Eberron the Morally Vague setting we all grew to love. A Paladin of Vol should be able to be so naive about the truth to be Good and a Cleric of Balinor so corrupted that she hunt people for sport...
#5
Alas
Sep 18, 2008 13:38:01
And the Traveler better be Neutral and not show up as Evil...

Smart money says "Unaligned."
#6
the_ubbergeek
Sep 18, 2008 13:54:24 D&D always discouraged evil PC - you can do it, but it tend to be an headache at the end, game-killing, even... So...
#7
Hellcow
Sep 18, 2008 13:55:10 I'll simply note that I have a paladin of the Blood of Vol in one of my playtest groups, and I think this is something 4E supports quite well.
#8
Talae
Sep 18, 2008 14:05:39
I'll simply note that I have a paladin of the Blood of Vol in one of my playtest groups, and I think this is something 4E supports quite well.

I was gonna say that I thought I read something about a playtester running a paladin of an evil deity. I can't believe that I forgot it was you.
#9
thaliost
Sep 18, 2008 14:21:50
D&D always discouraged evil PC - you can do it, but it tend to be an headache at the end, game-killing, even... So...

That's correct for most games. But for a game where the PC's are all evil, that makes a difference. :D
#10
thaliost
Sep 18, 2008 14:23:30
I'll simply note that I have a paladin of the Blood of Vol in one of my playtest groups, and I think this is something 4E supports quite well.

Right, 4E doesn't say a paladin must be good or must worship a good God. I just felt a panic when I saw how they treated FR that the same doom would fall upon Eberron.
But thinking twice, this *doom* is what FR used to be. And I'm at a relief now.;)
#11
the_ubbergeek
Sep 18, 2008 14:43:56
That's correct for most games. But for a game where the PC's are all evil, that makes a difference.

Discouraged =/= impossible...

Right, 4E doesn't say a paladin must be good or must worship a good God. I just felt a panic when I saw how they treated FR that the same doom would fall upon Eberron.
But thinking twice, this *doom* is what FR used to be. And I'm at a relief now.

It's not that bad, actualy. Interesting. And different ways of bringing faith and religions, you know; a setting with sure, tangible divine presence, another being cosmicaly agnostic.

But anyway.

(BTW, Forgotten Realms had always a bit more shades of grey than admitted... That book on FR dragons was an example, not quite always in line with their stereitypes they are...

GH is probably more black and white - just listen the older ones on drow... Always Chaotic Evil trope.)
#12
the_wamble
Sep 18, 2008 14:44:09
I'll simply note that I have a paladin of the Blood of Vol in one of my playtest groups, and I think this is something 4E supports quite well.

I have a quick question: as 4E paladins are restricted to alignment of their deity/religion, will it still be possible to play a "naive" paladin of the Blood of Vol? (i.e. a good-aligned follower unaware of the true nature of the faith)
#13
Talae
Sep 18, 2008 14:53:00 I was under the impression that in Eberron (including 4e) alignment restrictions are not steadfast like they are in the PHB. An example of this would be Hellcow's Paladin of Vol that has a good alignment.
#14
ChrisTheS
Sep 18, 2008 14:56:15 In 4e terms, all Eberron religions would be unaligned, as the principle is that the morality of the practitioner is much more important than the morality of the overall faith.
#15
smug
Sep 18, 2008 15:20:12
Is Wizards really thinking that people play D&D only to be heroes not villains?

I suspect they are thinking that it's the style of gameplay they wish to encourage and the face they wish the world at large to see; "D&D is a game about playing heroes" makes a better sound bite than "D&D supports people playing baby-flaying Mockery worshippers." The core PHB book makes clear that you COULD play evil characters, but has lots of statements discouraging it: "If you choose an alignment for your character, you should pick either good or lawful good" (4E PHB p. 19); "Your character can worship an evil or chaotic evil deity without being of the same alignment, but that's walking a fine line" (4E PHB p. 23) (implying that you could be unaligned, but shouldn't play an evil character); "Evil and chaotic evil paladins do exist in the world, but they are almost always villains, not player characters" (4E PHB p. 90); "the game assumes that player characters view these (evil) gods and their servants as enemies. The villains in your campaign, though, can be servants of these malign gods" (4E DMG p. 162).

D&D is a toolset. You can do what you want with it. But it's pretty clear that WotC intends the default game to be about heroes or at least unaligned folk - that they are discouraging the idea of the all evil party. I doubt this will change with Eberron. Eberron may be more of a shades-of-gray WORLD, but I don't feel that the setting has ever especially advocated evil play; rather, the general tone I get from the books is "This is a world in need of heroes, and you're the ones who can make a difference." Can you find a place where you feel it's actually ENCOURAGED DMs to run parties of evil adventurers in the past? IMO, even the PrC based around evil characters (Nosomatic Chiurgion, for example) have had the tone of being there for NPCs... and now NPCs don't use the same mechanics as PCs, so they aren't likely to include such "NPC" material anymore. So my guess is that we'll see information about the Blood of Vol and, I hope, the Dark Six - but that the emphasis will be more on playing an unaligned/good follower of the BoV than a brutal strike force of the Emerald Claw.

Of course, we'll probably get the Big Book of Evil at some point in the future...
#16
smug
Sep 18, 2008 15:25:26
In 4e terms, all Eberron religions would be unaligned, as the principle is that the morality of the practitioner is much more important than the morality of the overall faith.

I think it's more likely that they will use the alignment to reflect the values espoused by the god. It may be possible for a good person to worship the Mockery, but the fact of the matter is that the Mockery is a god of murder and treachery, and his creed is evil; the good person who chooses to worship him is an exception as opposed to the rule, and is going to have to do some philosophical gymnastics. Boldrei's faith encourages good behavior. An evil person could still worship her, but the fact remains that what her followers are called on to do is Good, while the Mockery's faithful are encouraged to do Evil. I think divine alignments will reflect that.

With that said, I think many of the divine forces will be unaligned. I think there's a good case for the BoV being unaligned, for example. But I doubt all of them will be.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 thaliost Sep 18, 2008 9:49:01	Found no support for evil Gods' followers. I mean, yes there're evil Gods specified, but no class features and feats related to them so far (as far as I've seen). Is Wizards really thinking that people play D&D only to be heroes not villains? I feel ****** off and anxious to know if EBPG will be guided by the same principles.
#2 ChrisTheS Sep 18, 2008 10:08:36	Given that, even with the vastly reduced pantheons, there are a heck of a lot more gods in the Realms than in Eberron, I wouldn't be too worried. The current main book specifies only 7 faiths with a grand total of 20 divine sources. The Realms guide has 18 divinity feats in it, which doesn't begin to cover all the potential deities - so, if we assume parity for the Eberron guide (and leave out Khyber cults, the Path of Light, and possibly the Undying Court), that's enough for the Dark Six and Vol to be adequately represented alongside the Host and the Flame.
#3 Alas Sep 18, 2008 10:23:33	Has there been much support for PC followers of the Dark Six to date? I don't recall much more than a few feats and a prestige class in Faiths of Eberron. I'm sure that the Six will get a decent write-up in the general source book, and we can reasonably expect the player's guide to include channel divity feats for at least the Traveler and Vol. Eberron has historically exhibited ambiguity about the deities and ambivalence towards alignment; I don't see anything in the new edition to discourage that.
#4 bossemeyer Sep 18, 2008 13:20:20	All i know is they need the Dark 6 because they are part of the Host as any other, while since the schism they have been "cast" out they are to be respected the same as any other god. I always viewed Religion in Eberron like the Ancient Greeks, you make offerings to the good gods to bring them into your home and you appease the Evil to keep them out. And the Traveler better be Neutral and not show up as Evil... and i hope the Shadow is the only Chaotic Evil since all the other were Neutral Evil before... But i have Faith (hehehe) in Keith to keep Eberron the Morally Vague setting we all grew to love. A Paladin of Vol should be able to be so naive about the truth to be Good and a Cleric of Balinor so corrupted that she hunt people for sport...
#5 Alas Sep 18, 2008 13:38:01	And the Traveler better be Neutral and not show up as Evil... Smart money says "Unaligned."
#6 the_ubbergeek Sep 18, 2008 13:54:24	D&D always discouraged evil PC - you can do it, but it tend to be an headache at the end, game-killing, even... So...
#7 Hellcow Sep 18, 2008 13:55:10	I'll simply note that I have a paladin of the Blood of Vol in one of my playtest groups, and I think this is something 4E supports quite well.
#8 Talae Sep 18, 2008 14:05:39	I'll simply note that I have a paladin of the Blood of Vol in one of my playtest groups, and I think this is something 4E supports quite well. I was gonna say that I thought I read something about a playtester running a paladin of an evil deity. I can't believe that I forgot it was you.
#9 thaliost Sep 18, 2008 14:21:50	D&D always discouraged evil PC - you can do it, but it tend to be an headache at the end, game-killing, even... So... That's correct for most games. But for a game where the PC's are all evil, that makes a difference. :D
#10 thaliost Sep 18, 2008 14:23:30	I'll simply note that I have a paladin of the Blood of Vol in one of my playtest groups, and I think this is something 4E supports quite well. Right, 4E doesn't say a paladin must be good or must worship a good God. I just felt a panic when I saw how they treated FR that the same doom would fall upon Eberron. But thinking twice, this doom is what FR used to be. And I'm at a relief now.;)
#11 the_ubbergeek Sep 18, 2008 14:43:56	That's correct for most games. But for a game where the PC's are all evil, that makes a difference. Discouraged =/= impossible... Right, 4E doesn't say a paladin must be good or must worship a good God. I just felt a panic when I saw how they treated FR that the same doom would fall upon Eberron. But thinking twice, this doom is what FR used to be. And I'm at a relief now. It's not that bad, actualy. Interesting. And different ways of bringing faith and religions, you know; a setting with sure, tangible divine presence, another being cosmicaly agnostic. But anyway. (BTW, Forgotten Realms had always a bit more shades of grey than admitted... That book on FR dragons was an example, not quite always in line with their stereitypes they are... GH is probably more black and white - just listen the older ones on drow... Always Chaotic Evil trope.)
#12 the_wamble Sep 18, 2008 14:44:09	I'll simply note that I have a paladin of the Blood of Vol in one of my playtest groups, and I think this is something 4E supports quite well. I have a quick question: as 4E paladins are restricted to alignment of their deity/religion, will it still be possible to play a "naive" paladin of the Blood of Vol? (i.e. a good-aligned follower unaware of the true nature of the faith)
#13 Talae Sep 18, 2008 14:53:00	I was under the impression that in Eberron (including 4e) alignment restrictions are not steadfast like they are in the PHB. An example of this would be Hellcow's Paladin of Vol that has a good alignment.
#14 ChrisTheS Sep 18, 2008 14:56:15	In 4e terms, all Eberron religions would be unaligned, as the principle is that the morality of the practitioner is much more important than the morality of the overall faith.
#15 smug Sep 18, 2008 15:20:12	Is Wizards really thinking that people play D&D only to be heroes not villains? I suspect they are thinking that it's the style of gameplay they wish to encourage and the face they wish the world at large to see; "D&D is a game about playing heroes" makes a better sound bite than "D&D supports people playing baby-flaying Mockery worshippers." The core PHB book makes clear that you COULD play evil characters, but has lots of statements discouraging it: "If you choose an alignment for your character, you should pick either good or lawful good" (4E PHB p. 19); "Your character can worship an evil or chaotic evil deity without being of the same alignment, but that's walking a fine line" (4E PHB p. 23) (implying that you could be unaligned, but shouldn't play an evil character); "Evil and chaotic evil paladins do exist in the world, but they are almost always villains, not player characters" (4E PHB p. 90); "the game assumes that player characters view these (evil) gods and their servants as enemies. The villains in your campaign, though, can be servants of these malign gods" (4E DMG p. 162). D&D is a toolset. You can do what you want with it. But it's pretty clear that WotC intends the default game to be about heroes or at least unaligned folk - that they are discouraging the idea of the all evil party. I doubt this will change with Eberron. Eberron may be more of a shades-of-gray WORLD, but I don't feel that the setting has ever especially advocated evil play; rather, the general tone I get from the books is "This is a world in need of heroes, and you're the ones who can make a difference." Can you find a place where you feel it's actually ENCOURAGED DMs to run parties of evil adventurers in the past? IMO, even the PrC based around evil characters (Nosomatic Chiurgion, for example) have had the tone of being there for NPCs... and now NPCs don't use the same mechanics as PCs, so they aren't likely to include such "NPC" material anymore. So my guess is that we'll see information about the Blood of Vol and, I hope, the Dark Six - but that the emphasis will be more on playing an unaligned/good follower of the BoV than a brutal strike force of the Emerald Claw. Of course, we'll probably get the Big Book of Evil at some point in the future...
#16 smug Sep 18, 2008 15:25:26	In 4e terms, all Eberron religions would be unaligned, as the principle is that the morality of the practitioner is much more important than the morality of the overall faith. I think it's more likely that they will use the alignment to reflect the values espoused by the god. It may be possible for a good person to worship the Mockery, but the fact of the matter is that the Mockery is a god of murder and treachery, and his creed is evil; the good person who chooses to worship him is an exception as opposed to the rule, and is going to have to do some philosophical gymnastics. Boldrei's faith encourages good behavior. An evil person could still worship her, but the fact remains that what her followers are called on to do is Good, while the Mockery's faithful are encouraged to do Evil. I think divine alignments will reflect that. With that said, I think many of the divine forces will be unaligned. I think there's a good case for the BoV being unaligned, for example. But I doubt all of them will be.