Basically to sum up the other thread: I have an idea for a campaign that's similar to the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen. ChrisTheS pointed out that most of the appeal of the LXG is that they're made up of the 19th-century equivalent to superheroes, and that got me thinking. Unless it was retconned in 4e, PC classes are supposed to be very rare in Eberron; even a low-level wizard wields a fair amount of power in the eyes of the common folk.
How would you feel about telling each of the PCs to make their character a well-known individual in some regard? For instance, a Warlord or Fighter PC might be a captain and war hero from the Last War. A Rogue might be an infamous burglar recently apprehended and who had a change of heart. The idea would be to capture some of the flavor of the LXG by having the PCs not be your typical "guy out to make his mark on the world" but instead already BE well-known in many circles. Of course this would have the downside that many of their foes would know who they are as well.
The obvious issue with this is the fact of levels in D&D, and realistically a 1st or 2nd level character isn't going to be that well-known (however note that in 3.5 Queen Aurala of Aundair was, I believe, only 3rd level) just because of the makeup of the world.
What do you think? Could it work?
Your PCs will certainly feel awesome and famous as they plow through minions left and right.
Of course, once you get level 2 or 3, you can throttle back on the minions, because whoever their enemies are have learned to only send the best they can muster.
(I played a solo session last night as a prelude to an upcoming game. I was a 1st level changeling rogue, but also a member of the Dark Lanterns. Even though I was only 1st level, I felt like a total badass spy as I snuck into a smuggling hideout and took out groups of minions in threes or twos at a time, mostly beforen they could even land a hit. The "boss" of the session was just a standard soldier since it was going solo, and it was tense and exciting because he didn't go down in one hit.)
Debating starting the PCs at 2nd level (also since I want to run Seekers of the Ashen Crown) so they're already a cut above your regular guy, even one with class levels.
Because if a player builds a character that's supposed to be a famous wizard, or a legendary swordsman, it ruins the suspension of disbelief if that guy aren't very powerful.
Because if a player builds a character that's supposed to be a famous wizard, or a legendary swordsman, it ruins the suspension of disbelief if that guy aren't very powerful.
People can be famous within their field for all the wrong reasons.
People can be famous within their field for all the wrong reasons.
Of course. But you should just be wary of telling your players to build epic famous characters, and then have all of them suck at what they do, because they're low level.
But you should just be wary of telling your players to build epic famous characters, and then have all of them suck at what they do, because they're low level.
So tell them to build heroic famous characters.
I kid a little, but seriously, there can be different levels of "famous." At 1st through 3rd levels, characters can be national celebrities for certain values of "national." In the Eberron campaign setting, for example, a low-level artificer could be clever enough to get mentioned regularly in the Korranberg Chronicle, which has continent-wide readership. In that situation, fame doesn't even depend on not sucking-- it depends on being interesting. (And to be honest, people love reading about spectacular failures.)
The other thing to consider is the net effect of celebrity in a world like Eberron or Greyhawk. What does name recognition really get you in a pre-industrial world where politics and economy can still be decided at swordpoint? In cities like Sharn or Verbobonc, the celebrity might have an easier time finding accomodations and invitations, but would still have to pay for things (advertisement, conspicuous consumption, sumptuary laws, all that stuff). In the sticks, a celebrity's arrival might create a stir, but the audience might have less to offer (and expect a performance in return).
Let's take a look at one of the OP's examples:
A Rogue might be an infamous burglar recently apprehended and who had a change of heart. The idea would be to capture some of the flavor of the LXG by having the PCs not be your typical "guy out to make his mark on the world" but instead already BE well-known in many circles. Of course this would have the downside that many of their foes would know who they are as well.
So, say I want my Rogue 1 to be an "infamous burglar... well known in many circles." Questions:
- How did my rogue get infamous? Perhaps he pulled off a particularly daring or lucky theft. Perhaps his fame came from robbing an already famous person. For the sake of argument, let's say my rogue gained his infamy through sheer volume of practice, and his starting level skills were earned by burgling every house in ten villages up and down the duchy's border. Low level targets, not impressive considered singly, but a heroic accomplishment taken in total.
- What circles know my rogue? At a guess: the duke's law enforcement (who are embarrassed), the residents of the targeted villages (who are angry and a little afraid), and the larger city's criminal guilds (who are amused and impressed).
- What does his infamy get him? When recognized for who he is (and wanted poster descriptions aren't always informative), my rogue can expect a variety of responses. The duke's men will want him for questioning. The villagers might try to appease him out of fear, or assemble into a vengeful mob, depending on how the rogue plays his part. The guilds might try to recruit him. In most cases, the rogue should get the same thing a non-celebrity adventurer would get: plot hooks, the threat of danger, and the promise of rewards.
Just a thought!
Well sure, he might've been able to hold a bridge agaisnt 20 men, all by himself, letting his injured unit retreat. This could be "represented" by the Fighter taking on 5 seperate waves of 4 minion combatants each. It's entirely possible for the Fighter to have succeeded doing this in actual mechanics, even more likely if he was with friends.
A Fighter and a Cleric holding a bridge against 20 minions? Pfft! That's ridiculously easy. But for the campaign world, that's still 10 to 1 odds against the duo. That makes them heroic, and worthy of fame.
Sounds awesome. But I wouldn't start them out as 1st level. 5 or 8 sounds better.
Because if a player builds a character that's supposed to be a famous wizard, or a legendary swordsman, it ruins the suspension of disbelief if that guy aren't very powerful.
A 1st level PC is leaps and bounds more powerful than a noncombatant NPC, which is the baseline for the comparison.
Granted it all started when we were framed for the brutal murder of a young idealistic though politically weak Karrnathi noble who... after a series of misadventures we were able to determined to never exist in the first place (it was a cover identity Kaius often used to travel incognito)... however our many daring escapes and refuge in audacity exploits (seriously, our half elf bard has impersonated nobility, law enforcement, and Korranberg Chronicle journalists to keep us from being caught... the truth of the deception often being discovered after the fact making the news coverage that much more sensational) have made us not only internationally wanted men, but extremely infamous.
This is all by level 6, and they know us wherever the Chronicle goes... which is practically everywhere. There's a regular feature following the investigation and manhunt.
A 1st level PC is leaps and bounds more powerful than a noncombatant NPC, which is the baseline for the comparison.
But the players won't compare themselves to the average farmer they meet. If they make a famous swashbuckler, they're going to compare themselves to Jack Sparrow or Zorro.
But the players won't compare themselves to the average farmer they meet. If they make a famous swashbuckler, they're going to compare themselves to Jack Sparrow or Zorro.
Sorry to say Polt.. but this really does sound a bit like 3rd edition thinking. At level one the players ARE heroes.. heck it is said in so many words in the PHB itself.
To get a level in a PC class, you need to be above the standard. What would you say if it came in the news that a small group of people were able to fend off and finally defeat about a 100 enemy warriors all by themselves? Those would be freaking awesome and heroic feats.
Well guess what, lvl 1 characters can do that.. Because the basic soldier is not a lvl 1 soldier, but a lvl 1 minion. Minions compare best to what the Heroes of the story really are. The characters could literally drove through them in high numbers.
This feel of heroism is what will drive my campaign, that will start in a few weeks with me as DM, as well and, especially at lower levels, I will do this by putting them off against minions. Something like 80% of kill xp untill lvl 2 will be from minions, 60% to lvl 3, 40% to lvl 4 and stabilize at around 25% later on. Bigger battles make heroics, and lvl 1 characters can already survive big battles.
A good example: A few sessions back in the campaign I play we actually raided a goblin raider's encampment. It was a fortified place actually. 60% of the encounter budget were minions led by 1 Elite and a few normal mobs (yes it was just above our level) It felt a lot more heroic then it did when fighting a young dragon a few sessions later.. because you were 'owning' the battlefield against these numbers.
It may not sound heroics 'fighting tons of minions' but it feels heroic to the characters.
Congradulations, your 1st level party of 5 guys just destroyed an army of 63 soldiers. That's something to be famous over!
I'm working on a new campaign that will take the players through Seekers of the Ashen Crown. I was wondering what to do to get them to 2nd level as well - at least until I started reading further.
Rather than having your players start at level 2, consider using the level 1 adventure in the back of the Eberron Campaign Guide. It's really quite awesome. It has a prelude section that has the characters meeting for the first time at the end of the war....they even witness the fall of Cyre / birth of Mournland. Then the adventure skips to the "present" - 4 years later, and they're reunited once again.
This 1st level adventure is cinematic and pulpy in the extreme. It's a marvelous intro.
Sorry to say Polt.. but this really does sound a bit like 3rd edition thinking. At level one the players ARE heroes.. heck it is said in so many words in the PHB itself.
To get a level in a PC class, you need to be above the standard. What would you say if it came in the news that a small group of people were able to fend off and finally defeat about a 100 enemy warriors all by themselves? Those would be freaking awesome and heroic feats.
Guess what. I don't really care about the rules. I care about the flavour, the lore, the story.
If the players are charged by a hundred people. They are going to die. I don't care, unless they can magic their way out of it somehow. A hundred people is a hundred people.
Secondly. If I get a player, who thinks he's a hero in the world, who thinks he's one of the bad asses out there, and he's level one? I'm going to tell him "Listen. You're not the baddest mofo out there. There are people tougher than you. There are heroes greater than you."
At level 1 you might be the town hero, the villager who saved the town. Whatever.
If you got a cool story for why you must be world famous at level one, sure, I'll let you do that.
But you don't gain anything by just being level one.
And you still need to tell the player "yes, you might be a good swordmaster. But there're still stuff you can't do. There is a lot of stuff you'll be able to do with time, but right now, this is what you're capable of.
You can be level 20 and not known by anybody, and you can be level 1 and be world famous.
But at level 1, you're not one of the tougher character's in the world. Not in my game at least.
What happens when the level 3 player who made a master swordsman meets the level 10 warrior king and decides he wants to get in a fight? He's going to get his ass whupped. And the character lose all integrity.
If I get a player, who thinks he's a hero in the world, who thinks he's one of the bad asses out there, and he's level one? I'm going to tell him "Listen. You're not the baddest mofo out there. There are people tougher than you. There are heroes greater than you."
What happens when the level 3 player who made a master swordsman meets the level 10 warrior king and decides he wants to get in a fight? He's going to get his ass whupped. And the character lose all integrity.
No one ever said that PCs should think they're THE BEST EVARS at level 1. What I was trying to say, and what I think others were trying to get across, is that just by being a PC classed character they are in a league above 99% of the NPCs out there. 99% of NPCs in your world should be 1st level minion misfits. Most of them without any weapons or armor. Not your campaign, just your world.
Compared to the vast sea of people populating Khorvaire, PCs belong to the category of "badass". They can take more hits, dish out more damage, hell they even have a chance of coming back from a mortal blow by rolling 20 or higher on a Death Save and spending their Second Wind. NPCs can't do that.
Does that mean that because the PC knows he's a better soldier than most individual members of an army, he'll suddenly think he can take on the Warrior King of the Valenar? Hell no. If he does he's just an idiot.
There's a vast gulf of difference between "can take on hideously stacked odds when facing common soldiers" and "duel the Warrior King". Like you said it's a story.
With that said, I would like to draw a parallel to Mass Effect. One of the background choices is that your character is the hero of the Skyllian Blitz, and the only reason Elysium is still standing is because The Hero single-handily held off an enemy platoon. Guess what level your character starts at? 1. Oh, and the characters in Mass Effect max out at 60 levels.
So, I think it is perfectly feasible. If you don't agree, though, all I can do is accept that your notion of fun is different from mine (and others), and ask you to respect my notions of fun without telling me that I'm having BADWRONGFUN.
Powercat, please, take a victory lap. You win this thread.
Woo!
[run, run, run, pant, wheeze]
I need to get in better shape if I'm going to take victory laps.
The party ended up being:
* Changeling Avenger
* Human Artificer
* Gnome Sorcerer
* Shifter Druid
* Goliath Warden
Certainly an unusual group composition, I have to say; not at all what I expected.
No one ever said that PCs should think they're THE BEST EVARS at level 1. What I was trying to say, and what I think others were trying to get across, is that just by being a PC classed character they are in a league above 99% of the NPCs out there. 99% of NPCs in your world should be 1st level minion misfits. Most of them without any weapons or armor. Not your campaign, just your world.
Compared to the vast sea of people populating Khorvaire, PCs belong to the category of "badass". They can take more hits, dish out more damage, hell they even have a chance of coming back from a mortal blow by rolling 20 or higher on a Death Save and spending their Second Wind. NPCs can't do that.
Does that mean that because the PC knows he's a better soldier than most individual members of an army, he'll suddenly think he can take on the Warrior King of the Valenar? Hell no. If he does he's just an idiot.
There's a vast gulf of difference between "can take on hideously stacked odds when facing common soldiers" and "duel the Warrior King". Like you said it's a story.
And I agree. My point is that the players will most likely not interact a lot with the peasents of the world. And if you ask your players to build characters who are already epic heroes, you set some expectations in the head of the players.
And when they suddenly realize that they don't have all the capabilities of the concept they have in their head, they might get a bit disappointed.
And if you keep telling the player "You're a ******* hero in this world. You're mighty". Then they'll consider themselves that. And you might find your players trying to take on NPCs much more powerful than them.
And I agree. My point is that the players will most likely not interact a lot with the peasents of the world. And if you ask your players to build characters who are already epic heroes, you set some expectations in the head of the players.
I don't see anyone claiming them epic heroes.. They did not fight a Rajah and pushed him back into Khyber, they did not solve the mystery of the Mournland, they did not free the Humans of Sarlona from their Inspired slave masters.
All they had to do to get famous in the Last War, was being able to take on multiple soldiers of the enemy single handedly. And as we explained.. even the rules cover that.
The DM can decide what they 'interract' with. It's all about setting a theme. if the DM wants them to feel like heroes, he creates a lot more encounters where they are heroes and fight creatures below their strength then where they are honestly challenged in their ability. It may not be exciting combat, but it fits the theme perfectly. And believe me that PCs love the thrill of steamrolling a fight as much as they do the thrill of winning a hard fight.
And when they suddenly realize that they don't have all the capabilities of the concept they have in their head, they might get a bit disappointed.
And if you keep telling the player "You're a ******* hero in this world. You're mighty". Then they'll consider themselves that. And you might find your players trying to take on NPCs much more powerful than them.
I'm sorry but.. even the big action heroes of stories.. especially the example used of the League of Extraordinairy Gentlemen.. did not always have easy battles and had to run or think things through instead of rushing headlong into conflict.
To be a hero doesn't mean you are able to WTFPWN whatever you come across. Heck.. D&D doesn't even allow that as there is always a bigger fish in D&D.
Even great heroes are still only 'human'. That can be an important theme of a hero based campaign actually. How do the heroes handle defeat when it comes around? How do people see them afterwards?
You are bashing down an idea solely on mechanics when the idea itself is beautiful and fitting for 4E unlike any D&D edition before. In 4E, a DM can make an exciting and heroic adventure for lvl 1 where they fight dozens of enemies and come out victorious! Try that in 3rd and you had a TPK on lvl 1.
To the OP, go for it! make their actions heroic but do let them remember that they are actually just mortal. So, punish them if they get too arrogant with their heroics.
To Polt: Don't judge a PC by it's level. It's all about the DM and what he does with the campaign. Just because most DMs may do lvl +3 encounters doesn't mean that you can't have a fun heroic campaign when you do mostly lvl -1 with the occassional really though lvl +3 or +4 encounter to fit the hero/super villain theme.
And I agree. My point is that the players will most likely not interact a lot with the peasents of the world. And if you ask your players to build characters who are already epic heroes, you set some expectations in the head of the players.
And when they suddenly realize that they don't have all the capabilities of the concept they have in their head, they might get a bit disappointed.
And if you keep telling the player "You're a ******* hero in this world. You're mighty". Then they'll consider themselves that. And you might find your players trying to take on NPCs much more powerful than them.
Sorry to say, polt, but it seems to me like you are critically under estimating the intelligence of players.
If I'm playing a Cyran veteran of the Last War, and my DM is throwing encounters at me heavily populated with minions, I am not, like a complete idiot, going to shout "I AM THE GOD OF WAR! I TRAVEL TO VALENAR AND CHALLENGE THE HIGH WARLORD SO CYRE CAN LIVE AGAIN!" at level 2.
...at level 11? Well that's a different story. That's when I start traveling. By the time I actually get face-to-face with the High Warlord, I hope to be level 16ish.
Any player with a modecium of knowledge of how 4e works would know not to underestimate people that are actually important, like a high warlord or barbarian king. Or basically anyone that wasn't just a faceless mook to plow through.
I'm not saying this will be fatal to the challenge level of your game, but it could be a potential problem. Are you dealing with this through tactics, using higher-level minions, or simply house-ruling that only damage from an actual attack roll kills a minion? All seem like viable options to me.
Of course, that is assuming you actually want the minions to be a challenge. The wizard sure felt great when his burning hands downed 15 or so cultists in one go, despite the fact that the remaining fight was still incredibly hard ;)
I readily admit that the DM can counterbalance this effect any number of ways, but some of those involve sharply limiting your tactical options once you have committed to a high number of minions in a game. Surrounding that fighter doesn't make as much sense when you've got a bunch of minions and he's got Rain of Steel.
Anyway, I was mostly interested in finding out how the OP intended to deal with this, or if giving the party lots of easy xp was part of his plan.