Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Ishorn Mar 19, 2008 5:31:51	I do not exactly understand how healing surges work but I see a problem with them in regards to the Mournlands. One of the challenges of the Mournlands has been that you can't magically heal there and that every encounter could mean life or death for the characters. Players have to make the choice whether it is worth going up against an encounter for the possibility of treasure or avoiding combat all together to complete whatever mission they are on. If characters can heal back hit points naturally then this get rid of one of the challenges of the Mournlands.
#2 radiating_gnome Mar 19, 2008 9:19:39	Just spitballing . . . but since natural healing also does not work in the mournland, I think the conversion to 4e could not allow second wind to work as a way to access healing surges. All of the existing methods of healing in the mournland would still work -- goodberry wine (use a healing surge), sidestep the plane into a rope trick, etc (assuming you're traveling with a wizard with a rope-trick style ritual). Any reason why that wouldn't work?
#3 bossemeyer Mar 19, 2008 10:30:04	yeah... i second Radiating Gnome... the part about the mournlands not even letting natural healing is often lost in text... i know my Original Eberron game, the DM didn't even know and the later to Nix the rules because i was the only one who planned for it... i was a Warforged so by prepared i bought repair scrolls and oils but still... Mournlands will be still hard on people, and it should be for as long as the grey mist surrounds the cursed land...
#4 Nived Mar 19, 2008 10:42:00	I'd agree with the no healing surges rule, assuming they work like they do in Star Wars Saga's second wind. In a way it is natural healing, to take it way beyond game mechanics its a boost of adreniline and a boost of endorphens that drowns out the pain and lets you keep fighting (sorry been watching "Human Body: Passing the Limit" on Discovery, good show). Things don't decay out in the mornland, flesh doesn't heal, essentially the body is in a walking suspended animation. Normal body functions just don't freaking work out there.
#5 androkguz Mar 19, 2008 11:14:11	I'd agree with the no healing surges rule, assuming they work like they do in Star Wars Saga's second wind. In a way it is natural healing, to take it way beyond game mechanics its a boost of adreniline and a boost of endorphens that drowns out the pain and lets you keep fighting (sorry been watching "Human Body: Passing the Limit" on Discovery, good show). Things don't decay out in the mornland, flesh doesn't heal, essentially the body is in a walking suspended animation. Normal body functions just don't freaking work out there. Actually, bodies do regenerate. Those who were in Cyre at the Day of Mourning left their bodies intact in the ground. Wounds make to them always regenerate. A wolf could have infinite food from there.
#6 Nived Mar 19, 2008 13:32:36	Yes, but they're dead and creepy and exist under the 'creepy Mournland stuff' clause. It is hardly natural healing on the dead bodies that regenerate (not that the wounds they had when the mourning happened close, rather they always revert back to the state the mourning left them in).
#7 Kagehito Mar 19, 2008 16:09:31	Normal body functions just don't freaking work out there. No out houses in the mournland then? I still think you have to eat and whatnot too... so its not ALL of the bodies functions.
#8 Ishorn Mar 19, 2008 16:45:43	I forgot about the fact that natural healing doesn't work in the Mournlands. I just want to make sure that the Mournlands state as challenging as possible.
#9 makeshiftwings Mar 20, 2008 19:23:41	Personally I'd like to see the Mournlands become a little more "hardcore". I thought it was kind of cheap that you could use Goodberries and whatnot to sidestep the healing rule. It seemed more like a rules exploit than a legitimate part of the world, and it felt odd to me that it was included in... PGtE i think?... as official in-character fluff. I changed the Mournland a bit in my games so that no healing worked at all no matter how you tried to get around it, and also made it all a big wild magic zone, so that spellcasting in general was more dangerous. That said, though, I'm not sure 4e could support not being able to heal that long. It seems designed to assume you have full HP at the beginning of every encounter. Plus, hit points seem much more abstract in this version, often representing just being "winded" rather than actual physical damage. Maybe a slightly different rule could be made for 4e Mournlands. Perhaps if you fall below Bloodied, you can only heal back up to Bloodied until you leave the Mournlands. If they did something like that, and added some other sort of difficulty-enhancing effect, like Wild Magic, then I'd be happy.
#10 radiating_gnome Mar 20, 2008 20:05:31	I think simplicity will be the deciding factor. This isn't a special ability that will be used once or twice, it's going to come up over and over again for all characters, so they will err on the side of being very, very simple. In 3.5, goodberry wine only works once/day. If, in 4e, it still only works 1/day, that's going to make it a very, very dangerous place. Especially since I don't think options like Rope Trick are going to be quite so easy to come by. -j
#11 glimeral_dup Mar 23, 2008 19:27:41	It seems designed to assume you have full HP at the beginning of every encounter. Not exactly.... It assumes that you will spend some (or all) of your healing surges/day during your short rests, however you will only heal 100% of your injuries during an extended rest, and thats once/day. IOWs: While you will frequently heal up to full HPs between encounters, through the use of your healing surges, it is not a given, esp. given how rapidly they diminish (even if you dont factor the fact that the party leader may have also been tapping your healing surges with their healing powers). Once you run out of healing surges, thats it..... You must take an extended rest to recover. With that being said, I see the mournland working something like this: Mournland: No character can benefit from magical or natural healing while in the mournland, and their daily healing surges are reduced to 0 (its hard to use second wind if you dont have any healing surges remaining). Neither short, nor extended rests will allow a character to replenish lost hit points, nor will it replenish a characters healing surge pool. For some inexplicable reason, Goodberries and Repair Spells continue to function in the mournland. These are the only known ways in which a character can heal while adventuring in the mournland.
#12 androkguz Mar 23, 2008 20:25:53	Maybe you can keep using healing surges BUT you can't recover them, not even by resting.
#13 nthdegree256 Mar 24, 2008 0:05:51	I like the idea of "no healing magic, and you get your full complement of healing surges but they DON'T replenish until you leave the Mournlands." HP in 4E (and, by extension, healing surges) are a little more metaphysical than pure physical trauma - the fact that you can burn through all of your surges over the course of 5 minutes and refill your HP strongly suggests that they're not mending cracked ribs or sealing up a bloody gash, so getting rid of all of them seems like overkill. (Not to mention that, given the prevalence of healing surges and HP, I bet 4E characters are expected to get hit a bit more often.) Get rid of all of your healing surges, and I see your game slowing to a halt whenever you hit the Mournland because you can't make it past 1 encounter without having to retreat into Breland for recuperation. On the flip side, letting the characters have full access to their healing surges every day takes away from the dark, imposing, "you'd better be careful because there are no second chances" air that the Mournland is supposed to have. I think making it a present, but dangerously finite resource helps give the players a chance to make it through a few fights and actually have a fun game while still emphasizing the risk they're taking.
#14 Kalani Mar 24, 2008 0:30:47	hmm... on second thoughts I agree; On a slight tangent - to make the finite resource even more valuable: Goodberries/Goodberry Wine acts similar to the Clerics Cure Power in that it requires a use of your Healing Surge to use, and that it heals Healing Surge + xdy damage per use. With that in mind, I can see players reserving their healing surges for use with Goodberries.
#15 androkguz Mar 24, 2008 13:40:06	^^ I like that you like my idea.
#16 makeshiftwings Mar 24, 2008 16:47:51	Not exactly.... It assumes that you will spend some (or all) of your healing surges/day during your short rests, however you will only heal 100% of your injuries during an extended rest, and thats once/day. I understand how the rules work, but I think they imply that you "should" be using your healing surges after every battle to heal up to full, and that they're assuming that's what players will almost always do. There would be very few reasons not to (except in minor cases like where you're only down by one or two HP and don't want to waste the surge); the assumption is that you'll keep using healing surges after every battle until you run out of healing surges, and then you camp for the day. IOWs: While you will frequently heal up to full HPs between encounters, through the use of your healing surges, it is not a given, esp. given how rapidly they diminish (even if you dont factor the fact that the party leader may have also been tapping your healing surges with their healing powers). But I can't imagine why anyone would choose to go into battle with low hit points and two surges than to go into battle with full hit points and one surge. You risk dying if you do that, and the best case scenario is that you'll be forced to use Second Wind or get healed mid-battle anyway, which just wastes someone's turn. I think generally, you'll always opt to use your surges after every battle until you run out and then just rest. There aren't many reasons you'd need to save them up and risk death just to keep them.
#17 Arcane_Guyver Mar 24, 2008 18:35:46	Currently, magical healing works at 50% in the Mournland (IIRC). Natural healing (and thus, Fast Healing) does not work. I would say that healing surges do not work in the Mournland, though if a Cleric uses a prayer to activate a healing surge, it still functions (albiet at a diminished effect).
#18 Moribund Mar 27, 2008 20:08:13	Defining "Healing magic" may be a little tricky in 4e. What exactly is a healing spell when every class has powers (and only arcane powers are called "spells")? Is what Warlords do a spell? You either need to be more general and make a statement like "powers with the healing descriptor do not function in the Mournland", which would exclude powers like Healing Word, Lay on Hands, Healing Smite and probably whatever Warlord healing abilities there are. I rather like the idea that it is healing surges that are affected. Preventing or reducing the recovery of healing surges fits thematically with the Mournland's traits even if it isn't a direct conversion of the rules in 3e. Maybe healing surges are even drained away at some rate while in the Mournland, so PCs become more and more fragile as they remain within the mists.
#19 androkguz Mar 31, 2008 18:51:41	Defining "Healing magic" may be a little tricky in 4e. What exactly is a healing spell when every class has powers (and only arcane powers are called "spells")? Is what Warlords do a spell? You either need to be more general and make a statement like "powers with the healing descriptor do not function in the Mournland", which would exclude powers like Healing Word, Lay on Hands, Healing Smite and probably whatever Warlord healing abilities there are. I rather like the idea that it is healing surges that are affected. Preventing or reducing the recovery of healing surges fits thematically with the Mournland's traits even if it isn't a direct conversion of the rules in 3e. Maybe healing surges are even drained away at some rate while in the Mournland, so PCs become more and more fragile as they remain within the mists. I like your thinking, except on the part of draining the surges. I think that you just have to say "healing surges don't recover in any way" to make the Mournlands a really hardcore place that can still be visited in 2nd level. The extra hardcore comes from the fact that you have to spread your 1 day resources over whatever period you will be in the mist. But you can survive weeks if you don't get hit and find some food source. I mean, Rorsa, the awakened Dire wolf from Shadows of the Last War was probably the most memorable NPC for my characters. Finding living beings in the Mournlands should still be posible.
#20 douglas_zuver_dup Apr 11, 2008 20:02:21	Current ways to heal in the Mournland: (unless there has been an erratta on the ECS) 1) Leave it using Rope Trick (PHB) 2) Healing Devotion to grant fast healing (Complete Champion) 3) Sacred Radiance to grant burst of healing (PHB II) 4) Paladin’s Laying on of Hands (PHB) 5) Goodberry (PHB) 6) Druid with the fast healing option found in PHB II that replaces spontaneous summoning 7) Teleport out and back in again 8) Monk’s ability to heal self 9) Plane Shift out and back in again 10) Changing to a new form using the Polymorph Spell 11) A shifter shifting 12) Belt of Healing from Magic Item Compendium 13) Healing Touch (SC) 14) Sacred Healing (Complete Divine) 15) Ect, ect, ect... The fact is that all of these rest on either leaving the Mournlands in one form or another or creating a healing effect that is not classified as a healing sub school spell. Since their are no longer schools of magic, then the Mournlands conditions must be redefined. My suggestion: Half any healing effect in the Mournlands It is simple to the point and will not shut down healing completely. 4.0 wants to avoid anything that completely shuts down a character’s abilities. (See Wizard Presents 4.0 Races and Classes for a discussion on that point.) {Fast Healing, natural healing, and cure spells are three entirely different things—look at how they affect undead…} Myself as a DM will direct my new 4.0 campaigns into Xen'drik which is more of a Points of Light Theme by making the transition with a one year jump. The players can convert or have a new character as desired...
#21 hailstop May 11, 2008 21:11:35	Given that hp loss is more losing stamina than necessarily actually getting wounded, and that in the Mournland natural healing doesn't work, wouldn't it actually make sense that you can still use your Healing Surges, but once you're Bloodied, you can only get to your Bloodied score as a max hp?
#22 Edymnion May 24, 2008 19:39:35	I forgot about the fact that natural healing doesn't work in the Mournlands. I just want to make sure that the Mournlands state as challenging as possible. Use my version of the Mournlands then. Simply put, it is 100% impossible for non-constructs to regain hitpoints by any means. No goodberry wine, no ropetrick, no psionic healing, nothing. Only Warforged making repair checks/using repair X damage. I allow hostile healing (where you gain hitpoints while someone else loses them), but I make them temporary hitpoints (even if the spell/effect/whatever specifically says its normal hp gain). No regeneration, no fast healing, no magic, no sidesteps, nothing. If you step into the Mournlands, you simply do not heal a single point of damage until you step back out. Level up, you gain hitdice, but not hitpoints. I also stick the entire Mournlands under a one way dimensional anchor. You can teleport out of the Mournlands, but you can't teleport into them. Good for an emergency escape, but then you gotta start all over and trek back in. Is it hard? Yes. Is it impossible? No, its not. NPCs routinely make trips into the mournlands and come back out, because they aren't stupid. The hire warforged mercinaries to do the fighting, and they run away from fights whenever possible. PCs are generally too stupid to fight smart, because their players are too greedy for xp and treasure. I use the Mournlands to break them of that way of thinking. They're in there to accomplish a mission, like retrieving an artifact. Fighting the monsters is *NOT* part of the mission, and if they try to fight everything they encounter, they will die. Get in, and get out. Set traps, don't charge into melee (unless you're a warforged or other construct) because every little nick and cut is going to add up until it kills you. Its funny, a lvl 1 party could survive a trip into my Mournlands, but a lvl 15 party would probably TPK themselves. Mainly because at lvl 1 the players know they're going to get killed, and intentionally play it safe (aka, smart), while the lvl 15 players think they can handle it, and get themselves killed.
#23 snarky_monkey May 25, 2008 21:52:44	I believe the Hellcow envisions the Mournlands as someplace where the rules are never static. In one place, sure no healing magic or anything similar. In other places perhaps "X" works. In others maybe normal healing does. Heck, maybe in others attempting to use it has the reverse effect. Basically, in the Mournlands anything is possible.