Heir of Siberys a Paragon Path - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Talae Jan 16, 2009 21:28:50	For simplicity's sake, I'm going to make Gaven a fighter with multiclass wizard feats, so his powers are a mixture of fighter powers, wizard powers, and dragonmark powers coming from his Heir of Siberys paragon path. Let's see what he looks like.
#2 Wizardman Jan 24, 2009 3:21:48	I don't really like the idea of the Heir being a paragon path. Translating 3.5 levels into 4E levels can be difficult, but the fluff of the Heir of Siberys made it clear that such Heirs were insanely good at what they did, and that was one possible reason for their immense power. The Prophecy makes sure that its chosen are already powerful enough to handle the extra load it will give them. I could be very much off-base, though. Perhaps the Paragon tier represents that level of skill. However, to me, Dragonmarked Heir would work much better as a PP than Heir of Siberys. It just feels more suited to being an ED. As for why these epic individuals don't overshadow the PC's: well, I think that most of them are kept on tight leashes, but manage to serve the Prophecy in their own way regardless. Only the best of the best Heirs will have an immediately palpable influence on Eberron... Heirs like the PCs.
#3 AvonRekaes Jan 24, 2009 11:29:25	Seeing as how the original Heir of Syberis had a level 12ish minimum to enter, I don't see why the 4e translation should be considered epic. The level translation game is a bit wonky. I mean, sure you could say that 30 levels now take the place of what 20 used to, so "epic" would start "earlier" now, but once you consider that at 30 you are supposed to be fighting gods you realize that you would've had to be level 40 or 50 for that in 3e. Also, Heirs of Syberis are documented NPCs in the setting (I'm sure a few of them showed up in sourcebooks, but I can't recall actually...). They're not heroes of destiny, they're valuable resources of the Houses. The way I see it, Dragonmarked Heir would no longer be necessary. In 3e it was a means to gain more effective use out of your dragonmark, or a tool for the DM to make influential NPCs. If they're going to make "Dragonmarked" as multiclass-only class (Like Spellscarred in FR), then you wouldn't need a Paragon Path specifically to make it better, you'd just keep power-swapping more interesting effects as you level. Also, as for making cool NPCs, now that's entirely up to DM fiat, since NPCs don't use the same rules as PCs anymore. As another method, though, you could actually have both Dragonmarked Heir and Heir of Syberis as Paragon Paths. They are, afterall, mutually exclusive. Dragonmarked Heir would be like the Spellscar Savant Paragon Path in FR, a path only open to those multclassing in Spellscar (Which would translate in Eberron as a Dragonmarked Heir being a Paragon Path only available to those multiclassing in Dragonmarked). Then Heir of Syberis would be a Paragon Path with a prerequisite of "Must not be Dragonmarked", which would then give you a few powers relating to your powerful Syberis Mark, but none of the versatility of having a Least -> Lesser -> Greater Dragonmark from multiclassing in "Dragonmarked".
#4 ieattrollsforbreakfast Jan 24, 2009 11:34:34	I agree with Wizardman, I always saw it as more of an epic destiny. I know that plays around with the levels between 3e and 4e, but I'm fine with that. I've been tending to boost levels up in 4e anyway. Still, it's an interesting look at one take on the idea. Using another class' powers to save having to come up with 12 sets of powers certainly saves time and space.
#5 ellorin Jan 25, 2009 4:55:53	I think I'll agree with AvonRekaes. The epic tier just feels too much for the Heir of Siberys to me. The paragon character's description as a person "well set apart from the masses" compared to the "determining the fate of millions and even planes beyond" epic tier seems more appropriate.
#6 superdeadsmurf Jan 25, 2009 21:45:32	paragon tier seems perfect to me for PC heirs of Siberys. Remember NPC heirs don't have to be nearly as powerful as a PC. You could easily make like an heir of siberys flavoured NPC/Monster at level 1 if you wanted to, and that would make perfect sense.
#7 PJammaGod Jan 26, 2009 8:50:39	Considering that most NPC's don't actually have class levels (pg 186 of DMG), what's to worry about? It actually makes more sense to me that Heir of Siberys would be a Paragon path, since actually having class levels indicates you already a serious cut above the rest. And being of Paragon level means you're real material here. In Eberron I expect most NPC's that even need to be statted will be Heroic Tier, with Paragon being quite potent. Epic Tier will likely be the real movers and shakers, people like perhaps Mordain or Jaela Daran inside Flamekeep. But I'm getting side-tracked here. Nice find Talae!
#8 ieattrollsforbreakfast Jan 26, 2009 10:49:32	So I've had chance to reconsider my position. There are plenty of good arguments for having a Siberys Heir paragon path in this thread, so you've swayed me. :D I'll add another to the list, one more mechanical that I've discovered while trying to adapt the Cataclysm Mage to an Epic Destiny. EDs have very limited design space for attack powers, which is pretty much what some of the flashier Siberys marks like Storm are all about.

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

Talae

Jan 16, 2009 21:28:50

For simplicity's sake, I'm going to make Gaven a fighter with multiclass wizard feats, so his powers are a mixture of fighter powers, wizard powers, and dragonmark powers coming from his Heir of Siberys paragon path. Let's see what he looks like.

Wizardman

Jan 24, 2009 3:21:48

I don't really like the idea of the Heir being a paragon path. Translating 3.5 levels into 4E levels can be difficult, but the fluff of the Heir of Siberys made it clear that such Heirs were insanely good at what they did, and that was one possible reason for their immense power. The Prophecy makes sure that its chosen are already powerful enough to handle the extra load it will give them.

I could be very much off-base, though. Perhaps the Paragon tier represents that level of skill. However, to me, Dragonmarked Heir would work much better as a PP than Heir of Siberys. It just feels more suited to being an ED. As for why these epic individuals don't overshadow the PC's: well, I think that most of them are kept on tight leashes, but manage to serve the Prophecy in their own way regardless. Only the best of the best Heirs will have an immediately palpable influence on Eberron... Heirs like the PCs.

AvonRekaes

Jan 24, 2009 11:29:25

Seeing as how the original Heir of Syberis had a level 12ish minimum to enter, I don't see why the 4e translation should be considered epic.

The level translation game is a bit wonky. I mean, sure you could say that 30 levels now take the place of what 20 used to, so "epic" would start "earlier" now, but once you consider that at 30 you are supposed to be fighting gods you realize that you would've had to be level 40 or 50 for that in 3e.

Also, Heirs of Syberis are documented NPCs in the setting (I'm sure a few of them showed up in sourcebooks, but I can't recall actually...). They're not heroes of destiny, they're valuable resources of the Houses.

The way I see it, Dragonmarked Heir would no longer be necessary. In 3e it was a means to gain more effective use out of your dragonmark, or a tool for the DM to make influential NPCs. If they're going to make "Dragonmarked" as multiclass-only class (Like Spellscarred in FR), then you wouldn't need a Paragon Path specifically to make it better, you'd just keep power-swapping more interesting effects as you level. Also, as for making cool NPCs, now that's entirely up to DM fiat, since NPCs don't use the same rules as PCs anymore.

As another method, though, you could actually have both Dragonmarked Heir and Heir of Syberis as Paragon Paths. They are, afterall, mutually exclusive. Dragonmarked Heir would be like the Spellscar Savant Paragon Path in FR, a path only open to those multclassing in Spellscar (Which would translate in Eberron as a Dragonmarked Heir being a Paragon Path only available to those multiclassing in Dragonmarked).
Then Heir of Syberis would be a Paragon Path with a prerequisite of "Must not be Dragonmarked", which would then give you a few powers relating to your powerful Syberis Mark, but none of the versatility of having a Least -> Lesser -> Greater Dragonmark from multiclassing in "Dragonmarked".

ieattrollsforbreakfast

Jan 24, 2009 11:34:34

I agree with Wizardman, I always saw it as more of an epic destiny. I know that plays around with the levels between 3e and 4e, but I'm fine with that. I've been tending to boost levels up in 4e anyway.

Still, it's an interesting look at one take on the idea. Using another class' powers to save having to come up with 12 sets of powers certainly saves time and space.

ellorin

Jan 25, 2009 4:55:53

I think I'll agree with AvonRekaes. The epic tier just feels too much for the Heir of Siberys to me. The paragon character's description as a person "well set apart from the masses" compared to the "determining the fate of millions and even planes beyond" epic tier seems more appropriate.

superdeadsmurf

Jan 25, 2009 21:45:32

paragon tier seems perfect to me for PC heirs of Siberys.
Remember NPC heirs don't have to be nearly as powerful as a PC. You could easily make like an heir of siberys flavoured NPC/Monster at level 1 if you wanted to, and that would make perfect sense.

PJammaGod

Jan 26, 2009 8:50:39

Considering that most NPC's don't actually have class levels (pg 186 of DMG), what's to worry about? It actually makes more sense to me that Heir of Siberys would be a Paragon path, since actually having class levels indicates you already a serious cut above the rest. And being of Paragon level means you're real material here. In Eberron I expect most NPC's that even need to be statted will be Heroic Tier, with Paragon being quite potent. Epic Tier will likely be the real movers and shakers, people like perhaps Mordain or Jaela Daran inside Flamekeep.

But I'm getting side-tracked here. Nice find Talae!

ieattrollsforbreakfast

Jan 26, 2009 10:49:32

So I've had chance to reconsider my position. There are plenty of good arguments for having a Siberys Heir paragon path in this thread, so you've swayed me. :D

I'll add another to the list, one more mechanical that I've discovered while trying to adapt the Cataclysm Mage to an Epic Destiny. EDs have very limited design space for attack powers, which is pretty much what some of the flashier Siberys marks like Storm are all about.