Linked Portal through House Orien: 50g
Airship: 1gp/mile
Lightning Rail: 2sp/mile.
So, I completely understand that teleportation through House Orien could only be really used for limited luggage and between major cities.
But given these circumstances, why use an airship if the distance is more than 50 miles? Why use lightning rail is the distance is more than 250 miles? In terms of ordinary commerce in Eberron, I don't see how the airship industry could even function, since airships could only dock in major cities anyway.
Any thoughts on this, or revisions I haven't seen?
But given these circumstances, why use an airship if the distance is more than 50 miles? Why use lightning rail is the distance is more than 250 miles?
This is just off the top of my head, but lightning rail and airship are mass transit. Sure, they require specialized crews to run them, but each such crew allows for dozens if not hundreds of passengers. With Linked Portal you're dedicating the time and energy of one highly-skilled caster (for an Eberron NPC) to moving one individual (or small group of individuals).
The poor take wagons, the middle-class take lightning rail, the rich take airships, and the ultra-rich have the clout to take a Linked Portal. It's at a level of service and scarcity at which the money isn't really the object; paying more won't make more ritualists available. You have to know the right people (or grease the right palms) to even have access to that mode of travel.
Also, I find the 50gp price tag rather suspect; it's 50gp minimum just to cast the damned thing, and House Orien isn't a charity.
Like I said, that's just off the top of my head. I don't doubt that more informed posters will have better answers for you.
In regards to airships, they do not need the docking towers persee. It is just a method that mades loading and offloading a lot easier. They definitely do not need it for passenger transport.
The Linked Portal ritual though is really limited. Having said that, the ECS also suggests the ritual fails on occassion. Somethine we had happen as a convenient way to explain the absence of my character because I could not make the session. Now my character has developed a bit of a fear for the thing, but luckily Orien was kind enough not to press charges against our group (we basically jumped in right after an escaping villain without paying for it) ;)
The Linked Portal ritual though is really limited. Having said that, the ECS also suggests the ritual fails on occassion. Somethine we had happen as a convenient way to explain the absence of my character because I could not make the session. Now my character has developed a bit of a fear for the thing, but luckily Orien was kind enough not to press charges against our group (we basically jumped in right after an escaping villain without paying for it) ;)
I tend to emphasis to my players the fact that teleportation is new in the Five Nations and unsafe:
A PC with an high perception skill in my game, noticed a goblin lady discreetly mopping blood stains off the wall next to one of House Orion's teleportation platforms. on another occasion a teleported PC suffered a concussion after landing on his head instead of his feet and required some Jorasco love.
That said, I also think the rail prices are too high. My campaign uses a team/mission structure, so I just handwave most of the rail costs, saying that the boss paid for it.
You know, I completely agree with the, "not mass transit" and "reserved for rich nobility" arguments. But in that case the cost should simply be higher. Supply and demand, right? If it truly was 50gp, everyone who needed to go more than a few hundred miles would use the teleportation circles instead - overtaxing the whole system - and forcing Orien to raise prices.
You've definitely got a point; in the scenario of typical supply and demand, the price should be higher. Still, I don't think it'd be quite as you say; in your scenario, price is the only thing that would keep people from buying up all the Linked Portal rituals, but I can very easily see House Orien keeping the service unlisted. It's the good stuff that you keep under the counter for special clientele, not the money maker you sell to anyone with enough cash. House Orien doesn't make its money off of single fares, after all, it makes it off of mass transit and -- relevant to the following paragraph -- trade agreements and shipping rights.
If anything, something like access to Linked Portal is the kind of special service used to impress nobles. Some big wig with thirty tons of silk to move probably gets a Linked Portal on the House to help close a deal, the same way corporate headhunters get to fly around in a G5. That's a service that needs to be available to the elite at a moment's notice, because it's all about making an impression. They can't go wasting them on just anyone who's in a rush and has galifars to burn. If some nobody showed up with 50g, they'd be told very politely that the Linked Portal is for house business only, or that the ritualist is booked indefinitely, or etc. I realize that this approach makes the sticker price largely meaningless, but that's actually probably the best solution to this little economic incongruity.
Note that this is not to say that I'd ever deny PCs the use of Linked Portal for non-plot reasons. Anybody can be somebody if they grease the right palms and/or kiss the right ass. Hell, depending on the level of prestige you accord your PCs, they might actually be somebody to begin with.
If anything, something like access to Linked Portal is the kind of special service used to impress nobles. Some big wig with thirty tons of silk to move probably gets a Linked Portal on the House to help close a deal, the same way corporate headhunters get to fly around in a G5.
I think this impression is largely correct, but there are certainly are immediate commercial reasons to use portals as well.
Eberron has many goods of very high value but low mass - magic items, for instance. An item might fit in one's pocket and be worth 150,000 GP. Some customers might demand rapid delivery of such things, and it's actually possible in Khorvaire to do that. Within several hours, almost any item can be custom-made and delivered. For certain nobles, warlords, and house officials, this kind of service might be expected or even required from time to time.
There are also professional services that can benefit. House Sivis negotiators, translators, or attorneys might need to teleport to a meeting on a moment's notice. A paranoid duke might demand the instant availability of Deneith bodyguards or Medani inspectors.
Thinking on it more, I believe that Khorvaire's upper class relies quite a bit on teleportation from Orien. While they can be happy with commodities being moved by rail or stormship, sometimes they want things now. Khorvaire's been united under a continental empire and economy for a thousand years - it's reasonable to assume that many elites in the Five Nations have interests in several countries. On Earth, the wealthy expect to have constant access to first class travel and next-day air delivery. On Khorvaire, it's access to teleportation in every major city. With centuries of continental unification, any merchant or noble who doesn't use teleportation might suffer a competitive disadvantage.
If anything, something like access to Linked Portal is the kind of special service used to impress nobles. Some big wig with thirty tons of silk to move probably gets a Linked Portal on the House to help close a deal, the same way corporate headhunters get to fly around in a G5.
I think this impression is largely correct, but there are certainly are immediate commercial reasons to use portals as well.
Eberron has many goods of very high value but low mass - magic items, for instance. An item might fit in one's pocket and be worth 150,000 GP. Some customers might demand rapid delivery of such things, and it's actually possible in Khorvaire to do that. Within several hours, almost any item can be custom-made and delivered. For certain nobles, warlords, and house officials, this kind of service might be expected or even required from time to time.
There are also professional services that can benefit. House Sivis negotiators, translators, or attorneys might need to teleport to a meeting on a moment's notice. A paranoid duke might demand the instant availability of Deneith bodyguards or Medani inspectors.
Thinking on it more, I believe that Khorvaire's upper class relies quite a bit on teleportation from Orien. While they can be happy with commodities being moved by rail or stormship, sometimes they want things now. Khorvaire's been united under a continental empire and economy for a thousand years - it's reasonable to assume that many elites in the Five Nations have interests in several countries. On Earth, the wealthy expect to have constant access to first class travel and next-day air delivery. On Khorvaire, it's access to teleportation in every major city. With centuries of continental unification, any merchant or noble who doesn't use teleportation might suffer a competitive disadvantage.
But remember that teleportation circles are a really new thing, on par with the development of airships, they're only about 10 - 15 years old. So the old Galifar empire DIDN'T have teleportation circles. They are an innovation of the Last War. Also (as others have noted), keep in mind that teleportation is still under development as a technology and still doesn't work right all of the time. It's probably still considered something of a risk and probably WOULDN'T be used for commercial purposes when more reliable transportation is available, except in rare circumstances.
As for the price discrepencies, I think we have to admit that RPG designers aren't (usually) economics majors. We have to keep in mind (which is something that may be hard for us to do) that Khorvaire does NOT have a predominately capitalist economy. Khorvaire's economic systems are still largely feudal in nature, which means in comparing Khorvaire to our world, we should be looking at the 16th-18th centuries, not the 20th or 21st. All that being said, if DMs feel that the transportation pricing guidelines in the ECG are unrealistic, they should feel free to scrap them and come up with something more to their liking.
But remember that teleportation circles are a really new thing, on par with the development of airships, they're only about 10 - 15 years old. So the old Galifar empire DIDN'T have teleportation circles. They are an innovation of the Last War.
The information about the circles appears to be in conflict - the ECG implies teleportation to be a fledgling science, while sources like Dragonmarked indicate it's very old. I take this to mean that natural teleportation is old while ritualized teleporting, such as through circles, is new.
In any event, even if teleportation circles weren't around, there were still teleporters. In Dragonmarked (p.58), it's written that "the teleport ability of the greater Mark of Passage quickly became Orien's most requested (and profitable) service. Effortless and instantaneous travel between the courts of Galifar helped ... the new kingdom to thrive." It's been part of their business for centuries and is much older than the lightning rail, and it's explicitly said that it was important for the kingdom.
But remember that teleportation circles are a really new thing, on par with the development of airships, they're only about 10 - 15 years old. So the old Galifar empire DIDN'T have teleportation circles. They are an innovation of the Last War.
The information about the circles appears to be in conflict - the ECG implies teleportation to be a fledgling science, while sources like Dragonmarked indicate it's very old. I take this to mean that natural teleportation is old while ritualized teleporting, such as through circles, is new.
In any event, even if teleportation circles weren't around, there were still teleporters. In Dragonmarked (p.58), it's written that "the teleport ability of the greater Mark of Passage quickly became Orien's most requested (and profitable) service. Effortless and instantaneous travel between the courts of Galifar helped ... the new kingdom to thrive." It's been part of their business for centuries and is much older than the lightning rail, and it's explicitly said that it was important for the kingdom.
So then it appears to me that the different takes might have something to do with the way some game mechanics have changed between 3.5 and 4E, especially having to do with the ritual mechanics, and the way dragonmarks work. I have to admit, I've come to Eberron as a 4E player, and am only somewhat familiar with the 3.5 material (I don't have "Dragonmarked", for example). In that case take my comments for what they're worth: the point of view of someone that has a predominately 4E understanding of Eberron.
Also, I find the 50gp price tag rather suspect; it's 50gp minimum just to cast the damned thing, and House Orien isn't a charity.
That's 50 gp a PERSON... Orion typically doesn't transport just one person, no matter who you are. Given a party of 5, that's a profit of 200 gp for a party that has to be somewhere NOW.
Yes, for sure, House Orion isn't a Charity.
House Orion will take you almost anywhere... but it doesn't extend it's reach to everywhere.
For example, let us say that you are heading out to the Eladreen Reaches, and need to get to a mountain far off in the distant Shadowcrags. Sure, you can get yourself almost the way there from even the Lhazaar Principalities in an instant. However, getting from Greenheart to where you want to go is still going to take other means of transport, most likely, an Airship.
Teleportation Circles are great for getting you to a place that is civilized and is known. Heck, it's even great for getting you to places that are in ruin but are known. Getting you to places that are Unknown, or worse yet, Hostile (Such as Droaam), probably not so much. That's when you need to charter an Airship, and hope you find a Skycaptain that is crazy enough to fly to where you want to go.
Teleportation Circles aren't also the best way to get to the small places. If you have to stop at a town somewhere between Starilaskur and Hatheril, for instance, Lightning Rail might be the only way to get there.
...
As an aside, does anyone find it funny that there is no mark of the town, village, or whistlestop between those two locations? The rails split there. There should be a town or something...
50 gp (or 50 galifars, it's the official name of the gp in Eberron after all) per character to get access to one teleportation circle.
You then add the cost for the ritual (component cost + 10~40% charge as per basic rules in PHB I)
If you use the lesser ritual to teleport from a teleportation circle to another, you must add another 50 galifars per character to get access to the destination circle.
And of course this will only teleport you from a teleportation circle to another, wich means that you might still have some distance to travel depending on your final destination.
I don't know of any party that's actually DONE this, mind you, but I've always wanted to give the players a noose, and let themselves squeeze it.
As has been said, the difference is caused by the change in the teleportation and the dragonmark mechanics. The 3E teleportation mechanic is not nearly as useful economical since it is limited to a handful of persons and light weight items and only those few members with the mark are able to use it. Furthermore, they can teleport to any region they have been at before. Teleportation also has an inherent risk of misfiring. In 4E the teleportation is limited to specific areas, but is guaranteed to succeed and since the portal stays open for some time, it also becomes much more useful for the transport of medium weight goods. The designers/developers simply were forced to make the changes in the 4E products, and that part of the Dragonmarked book is simply not applicable to 4E.
The logic is backwards. If teleportation is more reliable in 4E, the scenario presented in Dragonmarked is even more applicable.
In 3E, a standard Teleport had a chance of dumping you in a dangerous situation. See below for the fun.
Show
Familiarity On Target Off Target Similar Area Mishap Very familiar 01-97 98-99 100 — Studied carefully 01-94 95-97 98-99 100 Seen casually 01-88 89-94 95-98 99-100 Viewed once 01-76 77-88 89-96 97-100 False destination (..."rollValue('Total','1d20+80');" title="Roll the dice!">1d20+80) — — 81-92 93-100
Familiarity On Target Off Target Similar Area Mishap Very familiar 01-97 98-99 100 — Studied carefully 01-94 95-97 98-99 100 Seen casually 01-88 89-94 95-98 99-100 Viewed once 01-76 77-88 89-96 97-100 False destination (..."rollValue('Total','1d20+80');" title="Roll the dice!">1d20+80) — — 81-92 93-100
Or maybe overuse of Forbiddance rituals during the Last War has made teleportation unsafe.
Maybe House Lyrandar payed House Phiarlan to generate some negative reputation on teleportation - make Khorvairian nervous about using it.
Or maybe overuse of Forbiddance rituals during the Last War has made teleportation unsafe.
It's quite possible. What better way to invade a city? I can imagine that early in the Last War, circle runes were a hot commodity. If a nation knew the sequence to another's city, it could teleport soldiers, bombs, or monsters there at will. Orien might have had to create new circles periodically to prevent this from happening (like changing passwords).
Actually, I've always enjoyed the fact that you can use Teleportation Circles to get to the dead center of an adventuring site (Such as, a abandoned Giant keep in Xen'Drix), especially when the party doesn't contain a Ritual Caster to get them back once they get there.
Heh. I like the idea of them being the way home actually. That way once the adventure is over and everyone wants to finish up for the night you don't have to gloss over weeks of traversing a deadly jungle, but instead simply pull out a scroll and head home. Now getting to the site, that's where the danger and fun come in and gives the players plenty of opportunity to get side-tracked and caught up in other stuff.
It's quite possible. What better way to invade a city?
I tend to see the houses as similar to Dune's Guild (that said, I'm a complete newbie to Eberron compared with most of you
). If House Orien were ever caught in such a massive breach of security, they'd find many of the nations banding together to stop it from happening to them. Its one thing to transport troops within a nation. Its quite another to transport troops into a foreign nation as part of an invasion.That said, perhaps the Five Nations were very scared of this (and perhaps in the early days it did happen) which resulted in a massive stamp-down as they became heavily militarised and guarded. A social stigma was attached to teleportation that has yet to wear off along with legal severe regulations put in place. As such the reason teleportation isn't used more is for political reasons rather than technological.
Now getting to the site, that's where the danger and fun come in and gives the players plenty of opportunity to get side-tracked and caught up in other stuff.
That's part of what I like about the portal network. Since they are largely confined to major cities, they leave every other site open. In a strange way, portals support the Points of Light premise. Even thought the Five Nations are spread across a large continent, most people don't experience the distance between cities. Most people will be within a short distance of a major city, and so within a teleportation's-close-distance of every city. In such a world, almost no one would every venture outside of the relative safety of the web of civilization.
This leaves such travel heroes. Even lands in the center of Thrane or Breland could be completely wild an unknown, since most people just jump over them on their way from Flamekeep to Sharn.
That said, perhaps the Five Nations were very scared of this (and perhaps in the early days it did happen) which resulted in a massive stamp-down as they became heavily militarized and guarded. A social stigma was attached to teleportation that has yet to wear off along with legal severe regulations put in place. As such the reason teleportation isn't used more is for political reasons rather than technological.
That's a great idea. To discourage anything but state businesses through portals, the Five Nations would likely have spread stories about the dangers of teleportation. There were probably also lots of legitimate dangers, like attempts to redirect teleportations from, say, Wroat's circle to Flamekeep's. With secret rituals, saboteurs may have stolen traveler's as they popped from place to place. As Orien scrambled to secure portals and catch those responsible, the public impression of teleporting was tarnished, perhaps irrevocably.
It's quite possible. What better way to invade a city?
As I mentioned in other forums, this is the WORST way to invade a city.
a) It's a known location, which means you can purposfully build heavy fortifications around the summon point. So now that you are in the center (Or just nearby, depending on how it is designed), the hard part is getting out.
b) You are still limited by how many people you can get moved in. If you set your people up, and did your best, you can maybe push... a single company of men, maybe... dependant on how alert the Ritualists are on the other side of the circle, and dependant on the amount of space available on the other side of the circle.
b.a) And once again, you now have a Company of Men inside the Heavy Fortifications of a City! Between mundane defenses, like Boiling Oil, and a Spell Casting Ritual Corps, your Company is likely doomed.
c) A Circle can be dispelled. Which means once the city knows it's under attack, the local 6th level mage casts "Dispel Magic" (A utility power!) and Poof, No more invasion.
No, by far if you actually want to invade a city, the best way is still by more traditional methods.
I tend to see the houses as similar to Dune's Guild (that said, I'm a complete newbie to Eberron compared with most of you ). If House Orien were ever caught in such a massive breach of security, they'd find many of the nations banding together to stop it from happening to them.
Well, it pays to remember that House Orion are not the only Ritualists in the universe. Even so, though, no nation would DARE use a House Orion Circle to use as an invasion point. House Orion provides Logistical Support that no one but House Lyrandar could provide, and even if they are at odds in the Twelve, they would quickly unite together to interdict the Nation who thought they could abuse the House's powers.
No, no nation would dare use a Orion Circle for invasion unless that nation's leader had gone insane. It would start a Two Front war, with no logistical support. It would be doomed to failure.
a) It's a known location, which means you can purposfully build heavy fortifications around the summon point. So now that you are in the center (Or just nearby, depending on how it is designed), the hard part is getting out.
That location, however, may be exactly where the attackers want to be. The circles predate the Last War; before the war, the Five Nations were a single empire. There's no reason to think that the teleportation circles were created in especially secure places. With 900 years of peace and a couple centuries of circle use, it makes sense that they'd be in places convenient for business. While certainly within the confines of Orien buildings, they're probably near markets, homes of nobles, etc.
The point about fortified locations becomes more relevant as the war goes on. In 990 YK, there wasn't much need to put circles in the middle of Kundarak-secured keeps. Fast forward thirty years, though, and you probably find many of them in such places.
b) You are still limited by how many people you can get moved in. If you set your people up, and did your best, you can maybe push... a single company of men, maybe... dependant on how alert the Ritualists are on the other side of the circle, and dependant on the amount of space available on the other side of the circle.
Since the portal is activated simply by walking on it, it's not hard to move people through. Indeed, Linked Portal indicates that the only limit is the number of people who can get to it before it closes.
Even assuming that Orien has alert guards posted at every circle at times (not likely until this trick has been pulled already), a decent Arcana check grants 3 rounds - enough for a first strike. After that, you can bring as many creatures as can walk to a 10 foot diameter circle.
b.a) And once again, you now have a Company of Men inside the Heavy Fortifications of a City! Between mundane defenses, like Boiling Oil, and a Spell Casting Ritual Corps, your Company is likely doomed.
Only if Orien was normally expecting such attacks. Given how insecure their lightning rail lines are and all the sabotage that system suffered, it's not likely they were very defense minded at the start of the war.
c) A Circle can be dispelled. Which means once the city knows it's under attack, the local 6th level mage casts "Dispel Magic" (A utility power!) and Poof, No more invasion.
Well, Dispel Magic doesn't work, as a teleportation circle is neither conjuration nor a zone. Given that the Last War took time, it's reasonable that, eventually, Orien developed some method of disabling their circles in an emergency. It's implausible that it would have been there from the beginning, just as it's implausible to think a nation would have a system in place for destroying all of its bridges "just in case" there's an invasion.
Well, it pays to remember that House Orion are not the only Ritualists in the universe. Even so, though, no nation would DARE use a House Orion Circle to use as an invasion point. House Orion provides Logistical Support that no one but House Lyrandar could provide, and even if they are at odds in the Twelve, they would quickly unite together to interdict the Nation who thought they could abuse the House's powers.
People didn't seem to have any problem breaking lightning lines left and right or with blowing up the White Arch Bridge.
Of course soldiers aren't going to come pouring through a circle, "Death to Orien for the glory of Breland!" unless they're being paid to implicate Breland. People attacking through portals are going to be concealing their identities and are probably hired through an agent so that they don't implicate the nations they (unknowingly) represent).
No, no nation would dare use a Orion Circle for invasion unless that nation's leader had gone insane. It would start a Two Front war, with no logistical support. It would be doomed to failure.
This assumes that Orien can reliably detect the culprits, but there's no indication that they have a better chance at this than they do at catching all the people who destroyed their lightning rails during the war.
That location, however, may be exactly where the attackers want to be. The circles predate the Last War; before the war, the Five Nations were a single empire. There's no reason to think that the teleportation circles were created in especially secure places. With 900 years of peace and a couple centuries of circle use, it makes sense that they'd be in places convenient for business. While certainly within the confines of Orien buildings, they're probably near markets, homes of nobles, etc.
The point about fortified locations becomes more relevant as the war goes on. In 990 YK, there wasn't much need to put circles in the middle of Kundarak-secured keeps. Fast forward thirty years, though, and you probably find many of them in such places.
It may quite be exactly where the attackers *want* to be, but you don't think that with a hundred years of War, that those locations would be fortified? Of course, they are going to be fortified. Location of business, markets, and homes be danmed. The Nobility will want security.
Since the portal is activated simply by walking on it, it's not hard to move people through. Indeed, Linked Portal indicates that the only limit is the number of people who can get to it before it closes.
A one round activation, you can get ((13x13-1) or 169 people through (This assumes you can a) Find an area about 60' x 60' to assemble in, and that they all run through the portal, and that they all manage to stop as far as they can possible run, and not stop sooner due to fortifications on the other side). After that, maybe you'll be able to get another 169 in, but I am doubting that very much. A Company of Men is about right, and not much more.
Even assuming that Orien has alert guards posted at every circle at times (not likely until this trick has been pulled already), a decent Arcana check grants 3 rounds - enough for a first strike. After that, you can bring as many creatures as can walk to a 10 foot diameter circle.
Orien doesn't own every teleportation circle, which is something you are missing. In fact, they only own and operate *their* teleportation circles. Each Nation is likely to have their very own ones, as well. Orien Circles, in all likelyhood, probably are less protected then the ones above. However, as I stated before, they carry signifigant risk.
Only if Orien was normally expecting such attacks. Given how insecure their lightning rail lines are and all the sabotage that system suffered, it's not likely they were very defense minded at the start of the war.
Defending a couple of thosand miles of lines of rails is not the same as defending a small area less then the size of a football field. We grant that House Orion probably doesn't defend their Circles like the Nation does with their Public Circles.
c) A Circle can be dispelled. Which means once the city knows it's under attack, the local 6th level mage casts "Dispel Magic" (A utility power!) and Poof, No more invasion.
Well, Dispel Magic doesn't work, as a teleportation circle is neither conjuration nor a zone.
Depends on your DM, and how you run your game. I see no reason not to treat a Teleportation Circle as a Zone.
Given that the Last War took time, it's reasonable that, eventually, Orien developed some method of disabling their circles in an emergency. It's implausible that it would have been there from the beginning, just as it's implausible to think a nation would have a system in place for destroying all of its bridges "just in case" there's an invasion.
A Circle is not a Bridge. A Circle is a gate. You think of ways to Close Gates.
People didn't seem to have any problem breaking lightning lines left and right or with blowing up the White Arch Bridge.
At least, none that are mentioned in any specific source book As mentioned before, defending miles of railway is much different then defending a football field.
Of course soldiers aren't going to come pouring through a circle, "Death to Orien for the glory of Breland!" unless they're being paid to implicate Breland. People attacking through portals are going to be concealing their identities and are probably hired through an agent so that they don't implicate the nations they (unknowingly) represent).
Armies use uniforms. Armies invading using portals will NOT be disguising themselves, as that will get them shot by their own side.
There is a possibility that you could have the army sneak in and set themselves up for tomorrow's siege. That may be possible, but a large amount of armor and weapons being moved through circles will attract a LOT of interest by the National Parties, and the costs of getting enough forged ID Papers? Army Logistics would have people's heads.
This assumes that Orien can reliably detect the culprits, but there's no indication that they have a better chance at this than they do at catching all the people who destroyed their lightning rails during the war.
You are forgetting that the Twelve include the Mark of Detection? Oh yes, Orion can find out if they wanted to. Of course, if war was to break out (Hence, an attack on a city), Orion COULD very well not care.
One of the things you are missing is that the attacks on the Lightning Rails were not attacks ON Orion. They were attacks on an enemy nation. In such, they could decide not to retaliate, because quite frankly, it wasn't their conflict. However, USING the House Orion teleportation circles to wage war is a different story. That would break House Orion's Neutrality, something which they can not do. If any Nation tried to force them to break that neutrality (Such as using House Orion's personal teleportation circles to wage war), they will find themselves cut off.
Destroying House Orion Property - Maybe small injunction, probably just a fine to repair the rail so that they will continue considering providing their services to your nation.
Playing House Orion For A Fool - The Twelve Cut Off ties, and you are left to fend for yourself. Not a pretty position to be in.
That said, I do think that it is good to remember that House Orion is not the only player or people who can build and use Teleportation Circles, it's just that they advertise more. Just like there are a lot of gnomes in Zilargo that will go about how House Lyrandar is not the only people with Air Ships. They just tend to have the money to build the most fancy towers.
It may quite be exactly where the attackers *want* to be, but you don't think that with a hundred years of War, that those locations would be fortified? Of course, they are going to be fortified. Location of business, markets, and homes be danmed. The Nobility will want security.
Please review the portion of text you quoted, because your bolded text strongly suggests you didn't the first time around (or didn't understand what I wrote): I said that when the war began, circles would not have been secure, but that after time and experience with such tactics, such circles likely would become fortified. The state of portal security in 998 YK has no bearing on the security of portal in 894 YK.
In any case, we can simply read the texts. Let's try the ECHG, page 45: "House Orien ensures its control of the portals by locating them inside sprawling stations that feature fine accomodations-rooms, restaurants, shops, and spas-to pamper customers and to protect the circles from unauthorized use." It doesn't sound like an extremely fortified arrangement, does it? Keep in mind that this is written from a post-war perspective: security would have been even lighter a century ago.
A one round activation, you can get ((13x13-1) or 169 people through (This assumes you can a) Find an area about 60' x 60' to assemble in, and that they all run through the portal, and that they all manage to stop as far as they can possible run, and not stop sooner due to fortifications on the other side). After that, maybe you'll be able to get another 169 in, but I am doubting that very much. A Company of Men is about right, and not much more.
I suppose that being able to instantly drop two hundred soldiers into the middle of most major cities is not a tactical advantage, then? I don't understand the purpose of reviewing these numbers, unless the implication is that a few hundred soldiers in the middle of a city is somehow a reason for not using this tactic. Perhaps the argument instead is that 200+ isn't enough to bother with, but that's pretty implausible.
As for Point A, how is the enemy not going to find a suitable area from which to embark? Casting Linked Portal to arrive at a circle requires only enough space to draw a circle twenty feet across.
Orien doesn't own every teleportation circle, which is something you are missing. In fact, they only own and operate *their* teleportation circles. Each Nation is likely to have their very own ones, as well. Orien Circles, in all likelyhood, probably are less protected then the ones above. However, as I stated before, they carry signifigant risk.
It's not something I'm missing; it's clearly stated in the ECG and other sources that while House Orien does own most (as in, more than half), nations, cities, and independent groups like arcane institutions have their own. The reason I don't bother discussing them is three-fold: First, as you have just indicated, they are probably more secure than Orien's, so invading enemies aren't likely to target them, making them largely irrelevant to the discussion; second, because Orien holds the majority of circles and because they have circles in most major cities, this tactic is viable even if the other circles are 100% unassailable; third, it simplifies the argument to talk about the most common cases.
Since you bring it up, however, I should now note that have multiple agencies controlling portals increases the risk they create because it's not possible to have a comprehensive security system in place. Instead of House Orien being able to simply impose new conditions on all teleportation circles, each group will create its own security structures. This kind of patch-work security is easier to exploit.
We grant that House Orion probably doesn't defend their Circles like the Nation does with their Public Circles.
Hm. Given that Orien controls more than 50% of the circle network, this seems like a strong statement in favor of the the portal network at large being a great way to invade.
Depends on your DM, and how you run your game. I see no reason not to treat a Teleportation Circle as a Zone.
Given that we're talking about D&D 4th Edition and an official setting, the discussion isn't advanced by making up house rules as we go along. By RAW, Dispel Magic will have no effect on on Linked Portal or any similar ritual. As you suggest, however, people are free to abandon the rules as they like in their own games.
A Circle is not a Bridge. A Circle is a gate. You think of ways to Close Gates.
I appreciate semantics as much as the next person, but making this distinction does nothing to actually address what I wrote: that at the beginning of the war, there was likely no system in place to generally secure portals against invasions.
Armies use uniforms. Armies invading using portals will NOT be disguising themselves, as that will get them shot by their own side.
This has nothing to do with teleportation circles; your argument here can be applied to all military situations: Armies will NOT disguise themselves because they could shoot members of their own side. It's nonsense to think that no military or mercenary force would possibly disguise its soldiers. Besides, a force can easily develop a means by which members can mutually identify that does not involve wearing their nation's or patron's coat of arms - such as simply wearing uniforms which are unique to that particular attack and never used again.
There is a possibility that you could have the army sneak in and set themselves up for tomorrow's siege. That may be possible, but a large amount of armor and weapons being moved through circles will attract a LOT of interest by the National Parties, and the costs of getting enough forged ID Papers? Army Logistics would have people's heads.
This Eberron, not Earth. There are many ways to invade a location that don't involve hundreds of men with longswords and shields. A small group of elite soldiers (PC types) could easily pass through a circle without arousing much suspicion, especially in the early stages of war. However, even if the only possible tactic of which an army can conceive is smuggling hundreds of suits of armor, this can be done with things like bags of holding.
You are forgetting that the Twelve include the Mark of Detection? Oh yes, Orion can find out if they wanted to. Of course, if war was to break out (Hence, an attack on a city), Orion COULD very well not care.
You are crafting a straw man argument? I am not forgetting House Medani, nor am I pretending that the houses act as a monolithic unity nor that they have limitless capabilities. If Orien/Medani weren't able to determine who destroyed the White Arch Bridge or who sabotaged the rail lines, why would they be able to find portal attackers and saboteurs? Or are you actually arguing that Orien doesn't care if their business infrastructure is destroyed, and they thus never bothered to investigate?
One of the things you are missing is that the attacks on the Lightning Rails were not attacks ON Orion. They were attacks on an enemy nation. In such, they could decide not to retaliate, because quite frankly, it wasn't their conflict. However, USING the House Orion teleportation circles to wage war is a different story. That would break House Orion's Neutrality, something which they can not do. If any Nation tried to force them to break that neutrality (Such as using House Orion's personal teleportation circles to wage war), they will find themselves cut off.
The Lightning Rail is a major component of Orien's business and belong's to the house. While the intent was certainly to disrupt transportation with enemy nations, but they were attacks against Orien's infrastructure. It's absurd to think that Orien wouldn't investigate such attacks or choose to ignore them: Even if they don't arise from malicious against the House, they destroy Orien's business. There's an incredible amount of wealth generated by the rail, and it's ridiculous to think Orien wouldn't try to retaliate and/or enhance security if someone was destroying their business this way. That Orien continued to be vulnerable to such attacks throughout the war demonstrates that they don't have the ability to detect and prosecute such threats at will.
If so, it would make sense that orien circles would make circle on a tiled floor, with a removable "keystone" rune tile without which the circle becomes an invalid destination.
This off course means that off-schedule teleportation is impossible, so orien would likely have private family-only circles secreted in thier enclaves for emergencies.
Iirc, Teleportation circles are essentially rune circles, yes?
If so, it would make sense that orien circles would make circle on a tiled floor, with a removable "keystone" rune tile without which the circle becomes an invalid destination.
This off course means that off-schedule teleportation is impossible, so orien would likely have private family-only circles secreted in thier enclaves for emergencies.
Timing is a reasonable security measure: Orien enclaves might have circles scheduled to be extremely dangerous at all but certain times, such as with poison gas or monstrous presence. If an off-schedule arrival occurs, it wasn't sanctioned, and no one will miss the intruder.
In any case, we can simply read the texts. Let's try the ECHG, page 45: "House Orien ensures its control of the portals by locating them inside sprawling stations that feature fine accomodations-rooms, restaurants, shops, and spas-to pamper customers and to protect the circles from unauthorized use." It doesn't sound like an extremely fortified arrangement, does it? Keep in mind that this is written from a post-war perspective: security would have been even lighter a century ago.
House Orion is not a Nation. There is (I am sure) a significant difference between their stations, and a Nation's stations. I also will note that the authors who wrote the guide probably did not consider that Teleportation Circles are a Security Risk, and did not treat it properly.
That said, you CAN have a secure center and a sprawling terminal, at the same time. I currently am working on some sample designs to show how it can be done. Mechanical Gates surrounding circles tend to do marvels in stopping ground troops of all types, for instance.
I suppose that being able to instantly drop two hundred soldiers into the middle of most major cities is not a tactical advantage, then? I don't understand the purpose of reviewing these numbers, unless the implication is that a few hundred soldiers in the middle of a city is somehow a reason for not using this tactic. Perhaps the argument instead is that 200+ isn't enough to bother with, but that's pretty implausible.
No, it's not a tactical advantage when they are cut off and unable to engage or regroup. It's called Deadly Ground, in the words of Tzu, and it's a suicide mission and a fools errand.
As for Point A, how is the enemy not going to find a suitable area from which to embark? Casting Linked Portal to arrive at a circle requires only enough space to draw a circle twenty feet across.
You're not thinking broad enough.
First difficulty is organizing your forces to rush through the portal. Assuming you only send in that one company of 200 troops, you need a space that is, at it's minimum 70 feet across. Granted, that's the easy part. The HARD part is that the Landing Location must match the same size as the launch zone, otherwise they all can't get through. Depending on your area, there just might not be room on the other side of the portal to get them through. If you are fortunate, then they do all get through, and then you have the joy of pouring that 200 men through whatever exits are in the area they teleported too, before security drops whatever it is they do. While finding a good location to launch from is a problem (Especially if you try to cram more then 200 people through that portal, and that doesn't cover cavalry), it's the landing zone that is more of an issue.
Since you bring it up, however, I should now note that have multiple agencies controlling portals increases the risk they create because it's not possible to have a comprehensive security system in place. Instead of House Orien being able to simply impose new conditions on all teleportation circles, each group will create its own security structures. This kind of patch-work security is easier to exploit.
*shrug* If you want to put it THAT way, most cities probably have this problem, also. However, note that the Landing Zone problem STILL has to be overcome. A small room in some abandoned arcane lab still isn't an ideal area to launch an invasion, and you STILL have to know what the location code is, unless you claim everyone is using Perfect Portals...
I appreciate semantics as much as the next person, but making this distinction does nothing to actually address what I wrote: that at the beginning of the war, there was likely no system in place to generally secure portals against invasions.
That is not what you implied when I made that response. You claimed that Portals were like bridges, hence like roads. They are not like that. People don't secure roads, they patrol them. A Portal is a Gate. People secure and Lock Gates. There surely was a system in place, as no one leaves their doors unlocked to people can go inside.
This has nothing to do with teleportation circles; your argument here can be applied to all military situations: Armies will NOT disguise themselves because they could shoot members of their own side. It's nonsense to think that no military or mercenary force would possibly disguise its soldiers. Besides, a force can easily develop a means by which members can mutually identify that does not involve wearing their nation's or patron's coat of arms - such as simply wearing uniforms which are unique to that particular attack and never used again.
You are missing the point. Using a Teleportation Circle as to be part of a larger coordinated attack if it is to succeed, because the teleportation circle *IS* a known area of weakness. If other locations are under attack, it becomes obvious who is attacking, because large forces just don't come from no where. I don't care if you think a single use disguise will work or not, if you are taking over a city by siege (Which this is), you're not going to just send in 200 or so soldiers to get killed off at the Teleportation Circle. You're going to have to get the rest of the troops in by ground or air. All this movement WILL be seen before the army can take advantage of the portal. They will know who is invading. Matching Uniforms exist to help coordinate the attack.
This Eberron, not Earth. There are many ways to invade a location that don't involve hundreds of men with longswords and shields. A small group of elite soldiers (PC types) could easily pass through a circle without arousing much suspicion, especially in the early stages of war. However, even if the only possible tactic of which an army can conceive is smuggling hundreds of suits of armor, this can be done with things like bags of holding.
PC's are not an army. NPC's don't consist of an army, either. They can accomplish an objective, sure. Hold a City on their own? Not a chance. Also, you don't think Bags of Holding won't be checked? You better believe they will. That's no way to smuggle in arms. That plan is doomed to failure.
Eberron, like most D&D fantasy worlds, has limits to armed people. The majority of people in Eberron do not carry military grade equipment. A large number of them using portal traffic *will* be noticed by Nation Security on their way out of House Orion's neutral station, as part of the normal paper check. The only way such a plan were to work is if you took WEEKS to do so. That's hardly what one would call a typical "Invade using the Portal" plan, and you still carry the heavy risk that you would be discovered before you can spring your surprise.
You are crafting a straw man argument? I am not forgetting House Medani, nor am I pretending that the houses act as a monolithic unity nor that they have limitless capabilities. If Orien/Medani weren't able to determine who destroyed the White Arch Bridge or who sabotaged the rail lines, why would they be able to find portal attackers and saboteurs? Or are you actually arguing that Orien doesn't care if their business infrastructure is destroyed, and they thus never bothered to investigate?
We don't know that they were not able to determine who destroyed the white arch bridge. We don't know that they didn't identified the rail line saboteurs. You are trying to extrapolate a history which started incomplete from a book that is cursory at best, by design. I am not saying that Orion doesn't care about their destroyed infrastructure. I am saying that they are wise enough to know that they were not the true target, and that they demand compensation from the Nations that destroyed them, which might have even included a few "missing shipments" that never got to their destination.
We can't know if they investigated. We can't know if any conclusions were drawn. The History Does not go into such details, and you shouldn't assume they don't know because authors didn't include the detail.
The Lightning Rail is a major component of Orien's business and belong's to the house. While the intent was certainly to disrupt transportation with enemy nations, but they were attacks against Orien's infrastructure. It's absurd to think that Orien wouldn't investigate such attacks or choose to ignore them: Even if they don't arise from malicious against the House, they destroy Orien's business. There's an incredible amount of wealth generated by the rail, and it's ridiculous to think Orien wouldn't try to retaliate and/or enhance security if someone was destroying their business this way. That Orien continued to be vulnerable to such attacks throughout the war demonstrates that they don't have the ability to detect and prosecute such threats at will.
Who says they didn't? I never said that. I said they choose not to Injunction because of it. That's different. Also, destroying a section of rail doesn't destroy Orion's business. It slows it down. A destroyed piece of rail is a annoyance for a company, not the destruction of their business. It's a matter of perspective. Heck, even a loss of an Engine won't destroy a power like House Orion.
Read up on Real World Rail Baron History, please? House Orion certainly can investigate, the magic of their world lets them know who did what, and there is no security force in the world that can protect that much track, fantasy or no. Given that Bandits are STILL destroying tracks and causing crashes in modern day Eberron (I find this most likely), it's not a question of the House ignoring them, it's most of a case of they don't have the manpower to stop it from happening.
House Orion is not a Nation. There is (I am sure) a significant difference between their stations, and a Nation's stations. I also will note that the authors who wrote the guide probably did not consider that Teleportation Circles are a Security Risk, and did not treat it properly.
Two points. First, if you grant that Orien’s portals are significantly lower in security, this establishes the relative ease of invading through the majority of Khorvaire’s portals. Second – well, I guess it’s not a point as much as an incredulous rhetorical question: Are you really now arguing your position by saying the author’s at large have gotten their own setting wrong?
That said, you CAN have a secure center and a sprawling terminal, at the same time. I currently am working on some sample designs to show how it can be done. Mechanical Gates surrounding circles tend to do marvels in stopping ground troops of all types, for instance.
You certainly can have varying levels of security in such a spot; the closest analogue is probably an airport. Airports are more secure than most other travel points, including ports, train depots, and bus stations, yet they have been used to launch devastating attacks, in spite of advanced screening methods.
While finding a good location to launch from is a problem (Especially if you try to cram more then 200 people through that portal, and that doesn't cover cavalry), it's the landing zone that is more of an issue.
The launch point is not a problem at all: the only requirement is that you have a enough space to have 200 people stand around.
The landing point simply needs the space. Given that Orien’s circles have been operating for a long time before the War began, it would be common knowledge among all nations which destinations could accommodate forces of a particular size.
*shrug* If you want to put it THAT way, most cities probably have this problem, also.
Thank you for granting the point! Yes, most cities in Khorvaire will have these problems, or will have had them at the beginning of the Last War.
Again, at the start of the war, the Five Nations were not independent states – they were part of a single political entity which largely secured them against external threats. There’s no plausible reason for the various cities of Khorvaire to have had extremely secure teleportation circles because the nations hadn’t been at war with each other. Even if you assert that the setting’s authors don’t know that teleportation circles are a security risk, it doesn’t matter, because there was no enemy of significant concern for Orien to worry about.
A Portal is a Gate. People secure and Lock Gates. There surely was a system in place, as no one leaves their doors unlocked to people can go inside.
Many people leave their doors unlocked; it’s more common in when crime is low. Before the Last War, why Orien be worried about invading soldiers? A lot of security on the end is simply a waste of money because no one is attacking, and it’s a hassle for customers.
You are missing the point. Using a Teleportation Circle as to be part of a larger coordinated attack if it is to succeed, because the teleportation circle *IS* a known area of weakness. If other locations are under attack, it becomes obvious who is attacking, because large forces just don't come from no where. I don't care if you think a single use disguise will work or not, if you are taking over a city by siege (Which this is), you're not going to just send in 200 or so soldiers to get killed off at the Teleportation Circle. You're going to have to get the rest of the troops in by ground or air. All this movement WILL be seen before the army can take advantage of the portal. They will know who is invading. Matching Uniforms exist to help coordinate the attack.
First, it’s not a siege, it’s an invasion. A siege involves cutting off a location from resupply so that its defensives weaken over time. To conduct a siege when there are teleportation circles, you need to destroy the circles or otherwise entirely prevent your enemy from using them.
Second, you don’t need to occupy a city with thousands of troops to do damage. A few hundred soldiers appearing in a city can be devastating; it’s like parachuting behind enemy lines.
Third, even if you continue to maintain that teleporting hundreds of troops to the middle of a city is so unhelpful to an attack that no army would consider it, consider that teleportation can be coordinated with multiple castings. You can either have s single ritualist casting the spell in succession, so that you can have hundreds of troops appearing every ten minutes (going beyond a thousand in an hour), or you can use a precisely timed sequence. At the staging area, casters can begin using Linked Portal on the hour. After several rounds, the next unit of casters begins. After several more rounds, a third unit begins, etc. The effect of this is to create one portal at the site which lasts for 1-3 rounds, but another opens a few rounds later.
PC's are not an army. NPC's don't consist of an army, either. They can accomplish an objective, sure. Hold a City on their own? Not a chance. Also, you don't think Bags of Holding won't be checked? You better believe they will. That's no way to smuggle in arms. That plan is doomed to failure.
They don’t need to hold a city. You argument seems to revolve a myopic theory of military operations which holds that the only effective way to an attack an enemy city is to attack it from the outside with thousands of enemy troops. If you can slip in even just a dozen of your elite forces, you can do some major damage, such as by taking hostage the nobles who are lounging around in these enclaves, or simply get into the city at large.
Iirc, Teleportation circles are essentially rune circles, yes?
If so, it would make sense that orien circles would make circle on a tiled floor, with a removable "keystone" rune tile without which the circle becomes an invalid destination.
This off course means that off-schedule teleportation is impossible, so orien would likely have private family-only circles secreted in thier enclaves for emergencies.
Timing is a reasonable security measure: Orien enclaves might have circles scheduled to be extremely dangerous at all but certain times, such as with poison gas or monstrous presence. If an off-schedule arrival occurs, it wasn't sanctioned, and no one will miss the intruder.
I really, really like these ideas.
"Okay, Derlan, let's zap outta here!"
"No can do."
"Uh... please?"
"It's only [checks the sky] twenty 'til noon in Passage right now."
"How the &@#$ do you know that*, and who the &@$# cares? The Lord of Blades's hounds will be on us very, very soon. I'm sure we'd all much rather be in Passage before then."
"Until noon, there is no circle in Passage. What there is, is a very big room with a very pretty but incomplete mosaic... and wasps."
"Well--wasps? Really?"
"Wasps. Specially bred by House Vadalis."
"So... barricades and cards 'til noon?"
* I've always figured that House Orien, being the pioneers of teleportation and rapid transit in Khorvaire, would be the first to notice the relativity of time to longitude, and the real arbiters of "time zones." The elves and dragons probably noticed long before, but were less concerned with keeping appointments.
Two points. First, if you grant that Orien’s portals are significantly lower in security, this establishes the relative ease of invading through the majority of Khorvaire’s portals. Second – well, I guess it’s not a point as much as an incredulous rhetorical question: Are you really now arguing your position by saying the author’s at large have gotten their own setting wrong?
Lower in security doesn't mean insecure. It's like your typical bank doesn't have heavy security, but there *IS* security there.
I never said they have gotten it wrong. I have said that they didn't think things through. There is a difference. You can make mistakes, and still not be wrong.
You certainly can have varying levels of security in such a spot; the closest analogue is probably an airport. Airports are more secure than most other travel points, including ports, train depots, and bus stations, yet they have been used to launch devastating attacks, in spite of advanced screening methods.
You keep comparing a Door To a the sky, a Bay, A Open Feild. Stop that. A Teleportation Circle is a Door. Stop trying to fit Mass Transit analogies here. A Gate is a Gate. Invading through a Door gets people killed. Gets MANY people killed. There is a reason why Romans invented Catapults, and why forts got thicker and thicker walls as time moved on. It is easier to get through a wall where the defenses are thinner, then through the gate where the defenses are thickest. Considering that all you need to defend the circle is to a) close it (Or in this case, break it), and b) drop/raise a porticulis so people can not enter the area a Portal is a lousy place to attack from.
Again, at the start of the war, the Five Nations were not independent states – they were part of a single political entity which largely secured them against external threats. There’s no plausible reason for the various cities of Khorvaire to have had extremely secure teleportation circles because the nations hadn’t been at war with each other. Even if you assert that the setting’s authors don’t know that teleportation circles are a security risk, it doesn’t matter, because there was no enemy of significant concern for Orien to worry about.
Umm, no. You are forgetting that there are organizations and nations of monsters that have access to magic during the rein of Gilfar. Demons, Hags, and all sorts of other peoples could be teleporting in on a moments notice, also. The stations would still need security to handle these kinds of invasions, also.
The Authors underestimated the risk the portal exhibit. It is not a mistake, in my opinion, that the inhabitants of the world would make.
As an aside, me and other bloggers have butted head on this issue before, that time how worlds wouldn't HAVE a lot of teleportation circles for exactly the fear you are talking about. However, in the creating of 4E Eberron, the authors tried to conform to the D&D Player's Handbook assumption that all major cities HAD teleportation Circles in them, as a means of getting players around, without having the major issue of the old Teleportation Spell. I am of the position that telportation circles Should be used in major cities except in times of war, and that during wartime, nations destroy all but the most private and seceret circles till the time of war has passed. Since then, I've thought a lot about how one defends their city from invasions of monsters and other nations from these circles.
In short, the authors, while conforming to the 4E standard, never stopped and thought about how you defended them, just like the authors of 4E never have answered the question, How do People Stop Invasions with a door to their city that opens up from everywhere
Many people leave their doors unlocked; it’s more common in when crime is low. Before the Last War, why Orien be worried about invading soldiers? A lot of security on the end is simply a waste of money because no one is attacking, and it’s a hassle for customers.
Soldiers, monsters, it ends up being the same thing. People don't leave Castle Gates wide open... typically. There is a reason why you have time tables. There is a reason that there is the Twelve, and that House Sivis can communicate unexpected appearances. There is reasons to have the least amount of security at any location site.
First, it’s not a siege, it’s an invasion. A siege involves cutting off a location from resupply so that its defensives weaken over time. To conduct a siege when there are teleportation circles, you need to destroy the circles or otherwise entirely prevent your enemy from using them.
IF the invasion doesn't succeed in the first few hours, it becomes a siege. It's pure semantics, really.
Second, you don’t need to occupy a city with thousands of troops to do damage. A few hundred soldiers appearing in a city can be devastating; it’s like parachuting behind enemy lines.
Except, of course, it's not. because you are moving through the front gate. Where, even if House Orion is not expecting company, the local garrisons will.
Third, even if you continue to maintain that teleporting hundreds of troops to the middle of a city is so unhelpful to an attack that no army would consider it, consider that teleportation can be coordinated with multiple castings. You can either have s single ritualist casting the spell in succession, so that you can have hundreds of troops appearing every ten minutes (going beyond a thousand in an hour), or you can use a precisely timed sequence. At the staging area, casters can begin using Linked Portal on the hour. After several rounds, the next unit of casters begins. After several more rounds, a third unit begins, etc. The effect of this is to create one portal at the site which lasts for 1-3 rounds, but another opens a few rounds later.
Which, again, they can't GO anywhere.
Look, you're invasion happens on turn one. You look into the portal, you see a typical launch area, which consists of a 60' square room where you have your circle. Your troops rush in. The Offices on the other side of the wall hear the commotion, and they press the panic button (rune, whatever the Warding Guild wants to call it that week). The Porticulis that is around the circle rises out of the floor. The Porticulis on the Enteranceways to the room drop. If you are lucky, you have maybe 40 troops outside that room, and you have maybe a political prisoner. Your army, however, is not going anywhere without the ability to reset the runes, which the office does not have.
If you are unlucky enough not to have prisoners, then you get to have a little wizard war as slingspells and your people have a turkeyshoot, and that's in the least secure version of the scenario.
Your plan does not work. The sneaking the troops in one day at a time works better then trying to straight out invade. Your plot is going to be foiled by standard technology.
They don’t need to hold a city. You argument seems to revolve a myopic theory of military operations which holds that the only effective way to an attack an enemy city is to attack it from the outside with thousands of enemy troops. If you can slip in even just a dozen of your elite forces, you can do some major damage, such as by taking hostage the nobles who are lounging around in these enclaves, or simply get into the city at large.
1) You assume the telportation circles are going to be created inside the city walls, something I find unlikely.
2) You are confusing Invasion with Corvert Operation. A strike team to grab someone and leave is not an invasion. An invasion calls for hundreds of troops. Here is the Wikipedia Entry defining invasion.
3) An Invasion's objective is to Hold Territory. That's why you Invade. It's not to destory targets. That's called a Raid. It's not to kidnap/assasinate someone, that's called Covert Operations. It's not to destory manpower. That's called a Strike. Invasion Is Invasion.
Now, if you want to change the term to any of the above terms, then my answer pretty much still remains the same. A Covert Operation using the circles WILL succeed. It would be hard for them not to succeed, as the size of the force, and the ability to forge a small amount of papers and the secrecy of the operation will make is small enough to escape notice and succeed. Any of those OTHER things? Not happening. Too large to succeed in that fashion. YOu need Airships if you want to try invading quickly, not Teleportation Circles. (See, I got us back onto Airships! I try to keep in topic, I do!)
Iirc, Teleportation circles are essentially rune circles, yes?
If so, it would make sense that orien circles would make circle on a tiled floor, with a removable "keystone" rune tile without which the circle becomes an invalid destination.
This off course means that off-schedule teleportation is impossible, so orien would likely have private family-only circles secreted in thier enclaves for emergencies.
I'm sorry I missed this. I do like this idea, too.
You keep comparing a Door To a the sky, a Bay, A Open Feild. Stop that. A Teleportation Circle is a Door. Stop trying to fit Mass Transit analogies here.
Although an admirable assault on good grammar with an unhealthy dose of exaggeration and mis-attribution, the quoted ‘statements’ above contribute nothing to the discussion, are needlessly hostile, and indicate you entirely missed that I was agreeing that an Orien enclave can have a secure portal area while also providing lower-security spas and dining. This I why I compared Orien enclaves to modern airports: Both provide rapid transit to remote locations, both are controlled by major institutions, both provide leisure options, and both focus their security efforts at specific points. The analogy between Orien enclaves and airports is entirely appropriate in this respect. Perhaps a more thoughtful reading would serve the discussion better than random, tangential attacks.
Considering that all you need to defend the circle is to a) close it (Or in this case, break it), and b) drop/raise a porticulis so people can not enter the area a Portal is a lousy place to attack from.
I bolded the particular section to recall, again, a point I made before. Recall my bridges analogy? You acknowledge that an appropriate way to defend against attack through a circle is to *destroy it,*just as an Earth nation might destroy bridges to slow an enemy’s advance into their nation.
Umm, no. You are forgetting that there are organizations and nations of monsters that have access to magic during the rein of Gilfar. Demons, Hags, and all sorts of other peoples could be teleporting in on a moments notice, also. The stations would still need security to handle these kinds of invasions, also.
For the last forty years, it’s been possible to hijack a jumbo jet with boxcutters to fly it into a skyscraper. Just because there’s a possible point of attack in a given place does not mean that the people at risk have anticipated it and have proper methods for responding in place. Security is very much a reactive game. Even if some people pointed out the potential risks of relatively insecure teleportation circles, there’s no reason to assume that fool-proof security would have been installed in advance of actual threats.
It’s also implausible that monsters like demons and hags would try to attack a city through a teleportation circle, even if it was insecure, because these creatures have access to illusions, shapechanging, flight, and their own teleportation. They have no need to use such a circle. With no probability of attack through portals, perfect security is extremely unlikely. Again, as I’ve said several times, proper security is likely to have been created as a response to such attacks, which would only have begun in earnest with the start of the Last War.
If you are unlucky enough not to have prisoners, then you get to have a little wizard war as slingspells and your people have a turkeyshoot, and that's in the least secure version of the scenario.
It’s your assertion, then, that while defenders can anticipate the attack and have defenses such as war wizards and a portcullis ready, but that the attackers will have no ability whatsoever to deal with these hypothetical complications? It’s absurd. They can look through the portal they create before entering to scout out the area, and portcullis isn’t going to stop powerful magic or simple items like a Portable Hole, which creates an instant breech five feet deep, or the use of Passwall, the standard casting of which can easily create a passage 20 feet deep. The idea that attackers will have no mechanism for moving beyond the confines of the destination chamber is deeply flawed.
1) You assume the telportation circles are going to be created inside the city walls, something I find unlikely.
You incredulity aside, it’s fact of the setting. From ECG 45: “House Orien maintains an extensive network of permanent teleportation circles in cities throughout the Five Nations. Outside the Five Nations, circles are somewhat less widespread, limited to the larger cities and national capitals.” I suppose one might attribute this to the authors again ‘not knowing what they are talking about.’
2) You are confusing Invasion with Corvert Operation. A strike team to grab someone and leave is not an invasion. An invasion calls for hundreds of troops. Here is the Wikipedia Entry defining invasion. An Invasion's objective is to Hold Territory. That's why you Invade. It's not to destory targets. That's called a Raid. It's not to kidnap/assasinate someone, that's called Covert Operations. It's not to destory manpower. That's called a Strike. Invasion Is Invasion.
Thanks for the lesson, but it might have been had greater weight in the discussion if the word invasion didn’t also include the definition of “an act or instance of invading or entering as an enemy, esp. by an army (refer to dictionary.com if you like),” and if you yourself hadn’t been using this definition of invasion in several of your previous replies. For instance, you refer above to 40 troops capturing a political prisoner as an invasion, and you do so earlier when you refer to potential “invasions” by demons and hags as a threat which mandates thorough security. In any case, an invasion can be any form of entering enemy territory, even as part of a “Corvert” operation.
Are you really now arguing your position by saying the author’s at large have gotten their own setting wrong?
I know I say that type of thing all the time
That said, I haven't worked out the complete logic for teleportation circles in my version of Eberron yet. I do know the Orien ones are in all the capital cities of the Five Nations along with extra ones in Sharn, Stormreach, Korranberg, Trolanport and Shae Thoridor. They have a monopoly as far as human society is concerned. Dhakaani ruins may contain teleport circles if the goblins had that technology. Or they might not. I'm undecided.
That said in my version of Eberron rituals were created as a way to mimic and copy the abilities granted to dragonmarked heirs. Over the years new and original rituals were created unrelated to the dragonmarks.
As such, no society should have access to rituals before Dragonmarks came to exist. Which means Dragon and Giant civilizations had no rituals (unless the Dragons have copied rituals from humans). But that takes away many of the mystical effects for those ancient societies, which I dislike.
So I've got to think about it a bit more. It could be rituals were reinvented and perhaps they weren't actually invented. Perhaps its all a sham and they were simply discovered and ruins and some hack claimed them to be his own creation. Perhaps there's a massive conspiracy involving this on the scale of the Da Vinci Code (which I've never actually read).
In my campaign I did set a Dhakani telepotion eldritch machine, its purpse was to transport colossus statues across Khorvaire to a set of Dhakani cities, the machine had one big disatvantage as anything teleported thorugh it will gain a time debut of a month --which still made it good for construction/industry but not for personal travel and again it was achived with an eldritch machine not a ritual.
In the Aerenal I used bronzewood archways set in jungle roads powered by the Succor ritual (Divine Power) all leading to the entrance to Shae Mordai, which is useful for religious purposes travel (funeral parades lead by a priests of transition etc) but not the open airport themed teleportion of the Five Nations.
It could be rituals were reinvented and perhaps they weren't actually invented. Perhaps its all a sham and they were simply discovered and ruins and some hack claimed them to be his own creation.
It's suggested several times that this is the case. The warforged are like this (a rediscovered and re-purposed magical technology), and the same point is made about Continual Flame in Keith Baker's first Eberrron novel. The giants had portal technology (a 3.5 adventure had a room in which portals created water flow by linking to different points in another plane).
Eberron's magic probably regularly invented, reinvented, and rediscovered. Sometimes a House might "invent" a ritual which they really just pulled from Xen'drik ruins. A discovery of a well-preserved temple somewhere might add dozens of new rituals to a House's repertoire.
In other instances, it's as you suggest: Houses create rituals that expand on and require the magic of the their marks. Masking Shroud, for instance, requires that its bearer possess the Mark of Warding. While other ritualists might be able to recreate the general effect, it's going to be harder (higher level, more expensive) for them to do so.
And of course, some times rituals are just made by determined wizards in floating towers.
* It should be noted that they DO pose a threat of sorts in regards to very powerful magical creatures such as dragons and demons who can individually destroy cities. Of course, if these creatures want to destroy a city, the presence or absence of a circle hardly matters. Unless adventurers act quickly, the city is doomed anyway ;)