Branching slightly from the secret Cannith methodology concept, I realized that while Cannith is the main magical producer it is by no means the only one (arcane congress, margrave, and numerous magical cabals have also shown this potential- if not ability). This is an afternoon’s musings on the subject, something I hope preserves the "wide but not high magic" feel of Eberron, but still allows higher level items to be appear without crippling the suspension of disbelief (or economy, when it takes a dozen arcane artisans to replicate a single mid to high level worker...);
Cooperative Crafter(item creation)
Prerequisites: any one item creation feat, knowledge (arcana) 3 ranks, spellcraft 3 ranks.
Benefit: When you work with others to craft magic items, if you are not the lead creator (the person who’s caster level is being used and who is paying experience costs) you may add one to their effective caster level and may share the experience cost.
Magical Foreman(item creation)
Prerequisites: any two item creation feats, Cooperative Crafter, knowledge (arcana) 6 ranks, spellcraft 6 ranks.
Benefit: When working with others to craft magic items if you are the creator of the item you may add one to your effective caster level for each assistant you have. Any assistants who have the Cooperative Crafter feat instead add half their effective caster level (rounded down, minimum 1) to your effective level. Note that every workman must have at least a 5’ x 10 foot area in which to work, which must be adjacent to your work area or another assistant’s area, and you must have at least a 10’ x 10’ work area. If the item created is not hand held (an Apparatus of Qualish or other significantly sized device) the space for that device is not included in your 10’ x 10’ work area. This feat will not allow you to exceed the abilities of a 20th level caster.
Arcane Director(item creation)
Prerequisites: any four item creation feats, Cooperative Crafter, Magical Foreman, knowledge (arcana) 9 ranks, spellcraft 9 ranks.
Benefit: When working with others to craft magic items, if you are the creator of the item you may add to your level for purposes of creating the item and replicating spells and prerequisites (if you can do this). You may add one half the effective caster level of each assistant you have who possess the Cooperative Crafter feat, and the full effective caster level of each assistant you have who also possess the item creation feats necessary to create the item at hand. This does not give you any bonus to Use Magic Device or other skill checks, only allows you to function at a higher effective caster level. This feat will not allow you to exceed the abilities of a 20th level caster. Note that the space and other restrictions listed under Magical Foreman still apply.
Esoteric Manufacturer (item creation)
Prerequisites: any four item creation feats, Cooperative Crafter, Magical Foreman, Arcane Director, knowledge (arcana) 12 ranks, spellcraft 12 ranks, and one of Legendary Artisan, Exceptional Artisan, or Extraordinary Artisan.
Benefit: When working with others you may increase the effective reduction in base price granted by any of the artisan feats you posses by 1% per assistant. Each assistant may reduce one aspect of the cost (time, gold, or experience) assuming you have the appropriate artisan feat. The maximum number of assistants who can increase this reduction is twice your level, and no reduction may exceed 75% of the normally required time, gold, or experience. Assistants who enhance your level or other abilities through Cooperative Crafting, Magical Foreman, or Arcane Director cannot contribute in this way.
Examples
Schema (further on in this thread)
for other artificer toys
Nonmagical books.
initially I tried to do some example math, but I couldn't find appropriately compelling items. it's an absolutely reasonable request and I'll do it just as soon as I can pick some items. any suggestions/requests would be appriciated.
Example 1; A group of artificers gets together to build an amulet of health. The only prerequisites are Craft Wondrous Item (requiring caster level 3), Bear’s Endurance, and a caster level of 8. The leader of this operation is 3rd level and has the requisite Item creation feat. Working with 3 other artificers who each have the Cooperative Crafting feat he can replicate the 8th level caster to make any level of Amulet of Health he wishes to expend the resources for. If our lead artificer also possesses the Magical Foreman feat his assistants do not need to have the Cooperative Crafting feat.
In either portion of this example, the work area for the entire group must be at least 150 square feet (a square 13 feet on a side or any other shaped space that comes up to this size). Every assisting crafter must be present each day, any crafter which misses an entire day without making it up before the project is done cannot grant the extra level and may cause the project to fail (remember: a single individual cannot work on a magic item more than 8 hours in a day).
Amulet of Health: This amulet is a golden disk on a chain. It usually bears the image of a lion or other powerful animal. The amulet grants the wearer an enhancement bonus to Constitution of +2, +4, or +6.
Moderate transmutation; CL 8th; Craft Wondrous Item, bear’s endurance; Price 4,000 gp (+2), 16,000 gp (+4), 36,000 gp (+6).
Example 2: Several house Cannith artificers are preparing some new Warforged for shipment. The customer has requested that these be archer units equipped with the armbow component. A 5th level Cannith artificer (the lowest level he can be and be able to replicate the necessary minor creation spell) is assigned to the project. He does not have the Magical Foreman feat, but he does have Exceptional Artisan and Extraordinary Artisan. He is assigned a pair of 1st level Artificers who each do have the Cooperative Crafting feat. The trio spend two days and 863 gp (reduced from 3 days and 1,150 by the creator's Artisan feats) on each item. The experience cost is split among the three, but is not reduced even if one of the assistants has the Legendary Artisan feat.
This group also requires a laboratory with at least 200 square feet. Both assisting crafters, and the lead artisan, must be present each day, any crafter which misses an entire day without making it up before the project is done cannot grant the extra level and may cause the project to fail (remember: a single individual cannot work on a magic item more than 8 hours in a day).
Example 3: House Lyrander needs a new airship to replace one destroyed by the depredations of pirates. A 9th level Artificer (the minimum level he can be to have the Bind Elemental Feat) with the Magical Director feat is assigned to the task with 4 1st level assistants. Each assistant is able to provide a +1 bonus to his Caster Level, bringing him high enough to replicate the required Greater Planar Binding spell to craft the enchantments on the ship. He does not receive bonuses to the necessary Use Magic Device checks, so he may still fail at the task- however with 92 days and the full resources of house Cannith and Lyrander supporting him the risk is considered negligible.
Normally, this group would require a laboratory with at least 300 square feet, increased because the item in question is not hand held, however because of the size of the object we can assume the laboratory is subsumed by the space available within the ship. All four assistants (who may be magewright laborers) and the lead artisan must be present each day. Any crafter which misses an entire day without making it up before the project is done cannot grant the extra level and may cause the project to fail (remember: a single individual cannot work on a magic item more than 8 hours in a day).
Example 4: In its eternal hustle and bustle Sharn needs to expand. As usual, house Cannith is employed to provide the flying buttress' that will hold the new structures aloft. One group put on the project is a 3rd level artificer with the necessary prerequisite feats (Craft Wondrous Item and Improved Flight Item) and a group of eight 1st level magewrights with the Cooperative Creation feat. After 48 days the required item will be completed if the lead artificer can replicate the Levitation spell.
This group also requires a laboratory with at least 500 square feet, plus whatever space the buttress occupies, all in the midst, or as the focus, of the construction site. All of the assisting crafters and the lead artisan must be present each day, any crafter which misses an entire day without making it up before the project is done cannot grant the extra level and may cause the project to fail (remember: a single individual cannot work on a magic item more than 8 hours in a day).
Example 5; An artificer with legendary artisan and Esoteric Manufacturer working as the head crafter with three others could receive a 28% reduction. If our theoretical crafter was 10th level he could receive this bonus for up to 20 workers, for a total reduction of 45%.
Schema
Example 1: A Cannith artificer is working on a project for the House. He is handed a creation pattern and three greater schema that fit it. The creation pattern has a sixth level slot and two third level slots, giving it a base price of 300,000 gp. One schema grants +6 to caster level (the sixth level) worth 100,200 gp, one grants Craft Magic Arms and Armor and (the first third level) and is worth 22,250 gp, and the last replicates the fourth level spell minor creation (the other third level) which is worth 30,250.
Having all the necessary tools, the craftsman goes to work on some armbows for a group of warforged that are being shipped.
Example 2: The schema that appears in certain published adventures has spaces for a crescent, a diamond, a star, and an oddly shaped slot. The three identifiable slots suggest that it can accept a 2nd level, 4th level, and 6th level schema- yielding a value of 320,000 gp for the identifiable slots alone. The fourth, indeterminate, slot would increase the value by at least 10,000 gp for its presence, plus whatever further value it would carry. However, due to the unknown nature of that slot the value for research is immeasurable.
Example 3: A group of artificers gets together to build an amulet of health. The only prerequisites are Craft Wondrous Item (requiring caster level 3), Bear’s Endurance, and a caster level of 8. The leader of this operation is 1st level So no member of the operation can have requisite Item creation feat. However, the house assigns a Craft Wonderous Item Schema (a second level greater schema, worth 15,300 gp). Working with 5 other artificers who each have the Cooperative Crafting feat he can replicate the 8th level caster to make any level of Amulet of Health he wishes to expend the resources for.
In this example, the work area for the entire group must be at least 1225 square feet (a square 35 feet on a side or any other shaped space that comes up to this size). Every assisting crafter must be present each day, any crafter which misses an entire day without making it up before the project is done cannot grant the extra level and may cause the project to fail (remember: a single individual cannot work on a magic item more than 8 hours in a day).
Perhaps adding a case where the Arcane Director already meets the level requirements and has the Exceptional Artisan feat. Additional craftsmen can help to reduce the time to make the item even further. Say by an additional 5% per each assistant with the cooperative crafter feat working on the project with a maximum of 10 assistants, but ONLY if the Director meets all the requirements before he gets assistance. He doesn't get to add the level bonus for the additional crew, just reduce the time.
Example with the amulet of health. Normally an 8th level director would take 3 days to produce the amulet +2 on his own (reduced from 4 days due to the Exceptional artisan feat). With a crew of 5 artificers with cooperative crafter feat he can reduce that by a further 25%, down to 2 days. You need a good 550 sq ft to do this and the XP cost is shared amongst all participants.
Gold cost and XP costs cannot be reduced in a similar fashion.
This is just a suggestion as a way to add in a "mass production" aspect. It is not unreasonable to do something like this because items will still take at least a day to create and higher level artificers are still quite rare.
but still, consider these feats yoinked for my own campaign :D
Just the right amount of crunch and fluff to make for a tasty morsel to add flavor to any Eberron game. :D
I see these as something that NPCs are more likely to take, since most PCs will be rising to sufficient caster level on their own (not to mention spending their downtime differently). That said, these feats really enhance my perception of how magic fits into society in Khorvaire, and now that I've read them, I can't see a Cannith enclave functioning without them.
Cheers!
This can also explain why there are magic rings floating around when it is neccessary to have a CL of 12 to get Forge Ring (or Artificer 14).
Esoteric Manufacturer
Prerequisites: any four item creation feats, Cooperative Crafter, Magical Foreman, Arcane Director, knowledge (arcana) 12 ranks, spellcraft 12 ranks, and one of Legendary Artisan, Exceptional Artisan, or Extraordinary Artisan.
Benefit: When working with others you may increase the effective reduction in base price granted by any of the artisan feats you posses by 1% per assistant. Each assistant may reduce one aspect of the cost (time, gold, or experience) assuming you have the appropriate artisan feat. The maximum number of assistants who can increase this reduction is twice your level, and no reduction may exceed 75% of the normally required time, gold, or experience. Assistants who enhance your level or other abilities through Cooperative Crafting, Magical Foreman, or Arcane Director cannot contribute in this way.
Example; An artificer with legendary artisan and this feat working as the head crafter with three others could receive a 28% reduction. If our theoretical crafter was 10th level he could receive this bonus for up to 20 workers, for a total reduction of 45%.
Solarious; another thread had some comments that finally gave me the kick start I needed for that. Next post I make will be on this thread because of you
Schema;
Forge Schema (Item Creation)
While once, among the ancient empire of the giants, the ability to create schema may have been widespread and common in the modern day it is not. A few high level artificers, mostly scions of the Cannith house, have reverse engineered the artifacts from Xen’drik to produce their own modern copies.
Prerequisites: Scribe Scroll, Craft Wondrous Item, Caster Level 12th+
Benefit: You can create any schema or creation pattern whose prerequisites you meet. Enchanting one of these items takes one week for each 1,000 gp in its price. To enchant one of these items, you must spend 1/25 of the item’s price in XP and use up raw materials costing half of this price.
You can also mend a broken schema if it is one that you could make. Doing so costs half the XP, half the raw materials, and half the time it would take to craft that item in the first place.
Some items incur extra costs in material components or XP, as noted in their descriptions. These costs are in addition to those derived from the item’s base price. You must pay such a cost to create an item or to mend a broken one
Lesser Schema: Something of a misnomer, all schema are or start out as lesser schema. A lesser schema does nothing more than hold the pattern of a single artificer infusion for study. To build a lesser schema the artificer chooses a single infusion that he knows and builds the schema to hold it. The base cost of such a schema is the level of the infusion squared x the minimum level required to cast the infusion x 50 gp. It is at this point that the shape of a schema is chosen, determined by the level of the infusion to be instilled within it; in order these shapes are circle (first level), crescent (second), triangle (third), diamond (fourth), pentagon (fifth), and star (sixth). Other shapes of schema have been found but these are uncommon and most artificers are uncertain of the relevance (or if they were produced through some alternate means). Most schema of this type are for the infusions listed in the Eberron Campaign Setting, which is why those infusions are common- however there are regular reports of other “new” infusions which turn up from time to time. Bear in mind that these schema are not scrolls, and do not allow the casting of the infusion from the schema itself, only that it allows artificers to learn the infusion contained within and prepares the schema for further enchantment.
Greater Schema: Once the base outline of a schema is completed it can be further enchanted to make a greater schema. These are the items that artificers strive for, which make creating items easier and suggest directions in which research will progress. These schema give access to feats and abilities that might otherwise be beyond the artificer in question. However, these abilities are limited by what level of infusion the base schema uses. These abilities are not granted, but cover prerequisites for creating magic items. Also note that only a single schema may be used in the creation of an individual magic item, that only one character may use a schema at a time, and that a schema may be used to help with only one item at a time. The character crafting a schema must have the ability being granted, which is part of the reason that these are so rare and highly sought after.
Possible Abilities for Greater Schema are listed below. The base prices listed are to improve a lesser schema to the listed greater schema, thus they are in addition to the enchantments already placed there. Also note that abilities can be granted to a higher level schema at the prices listed for lower level schema - prices listed under each are simply the maximum allowable enchantments for that level. Also note, a given schema may only have a single granted ability.
First level (circle):
+1 caster level. 20,000 gp base price
Item Creation feat with required level of 2nd or less (note: a item creation feat with no level requirement has a level requirement of 1 greater than the highest level prerequisite it possesses). 10,000 gp base price
Metamagic feat which increases spell level by 1 or less. 5,000 gp base price
Up to 4 ranks in a specific skill. 5,000
0 level spell. 1,000 gp base price.
1st level spell. 2,000 gp base price.
Second level (crescent):
+2 caster level. 35,000 gp base price
Item creation feat with required level of 4th or lower. 15,000 gp base price.
Metamagic feat which increases spell level by 2 or less. 8,000 gp base price
Up to 8 ranks in a specific skill. 10,000
2nd level spell. 5,000 gp base price
3rd level spell. 15,000 gp base price
Non-feat class ability obtained at 1st level. 16,000 gp base price.
Third level (triangle):
+3 caster level. 45,000 gp base price
Item creation feat with required level of 6th or lower. 20,000 gp base price.
Metamagic feat which increases spell level by 3 or less. 12,000 gp base price
Up to 12 ranks in a specific skill. 15,000
4th level spell. 28,000 gp base price
5th level spell. 45,000 gp base price
Non-feat class ability obtained at 2nd level. 32,000 gp base price.
Fourth level (diamond):
+4 caster level. 55,000 gp base price
Item creation feat with required level of 8th or lower. 25,000 gp base price.
Metamagic feat which increases spell level by 4 or less. 17,000 gp base price
Up to 16 ranks in a specific skill. 20,000
6th level spell. 66,000 gp base price
7th level spell. 91,000 gp base price
Non-feat class ability obtained at 4th level or lower. 64,000 gp base price.
Fifth level (pentagon):
+5 caster level. 65,000 gp base price
Item creation feat with required level of 10th or lower. 30,000 gp base price.
Metamagic feat which increases spell level by 5 or less. 23,000 gp base price
Up to 20 ranks in a specific skill. 25,000
8th level spell. 120,000 gp base price
Non-feat class ability obtained at 6th level or lower. 128,000 gp base price.
Sixth level (star):
+6 caster level. 75,000 gp base price
Item creation feat with required level of 12th or lower. 35,000 gp base price.
Metamagic feat which increases spell level by 6 or less. 30,000 gp base price
Up to 24 ranks in a specific skill. 30,000
9th level spell. 153,000 gp base price
Non-feat class ability obtained at 10th level or lower. 256,000 gp base price.
Creation Pattern: Amazing in ability and complexity, creation patterns allow a character to use multiple schema together to create an object. Every creation pattern is different, containing any number of slots and able to hold any combination of levels. Instead of using a single schema a character may choose to use a single Creation Pattern. Every schema slotted into the creation pattern grants its prerequisites. Note that a lower level schema cannot be slotted into a higher level slot because the shapes are too different, and that once a Creation Pattern is started its allotment of slots cannot ever be changed without destroying it. A creation pattern requires a 20th level caster to make.
Base price for a creation pattern is 10,000 gp.
Each slot has a cost of 5,000 x the level squared gp. (5,000. 20,000. 45,000. 80,000. 125,000. 180,000)
Each slot beyond the first requires 10,000 gp plus the cost of the slot itself be added to the base price.
Examples
How about a separate feat? Off the cuff;
Esoteric Manufacturer
Prerequisites: any four item creation feats, Cooperative Crafter, Magical Foreman, Arcane Director, knowledge (arcana) 12 ranks, spellcraft 12 ranks, and one of Legendary Artisan, Exceptional Artisan, or Extraordinary Artisan.
Benefit: When working with others you may increase the effective reduction in base price granted by any of the artisan feats you posses by 1% per assistant. The maximum you can increase this reduction by is twice your level, to a final maximum of 25% of the normally required time, gold, or experience.
Neat.
Do you mean this to apply to all of the Artisan feats acoordingly? ie take it once and it applies to any and all Artisan feats you have?
Or do you propose a seperate feat for each of the Artisan feats? ie take it multiple times, once for each artisan feat.
on the one hand; it is simply expanding benefits gained from multiple separate feats, requires a number of prerequisites, and only benefits the character if they have the assistants to make it worthwhile.
on the other hand; you have more fingers… err… it does have the potential to give colossal (as in the creature size) benefits (thinking; high level artificers with the leadership feat).
The question is; do the prerequisites and requirements for high level etc balance the power that it gives? Like I said, the feat was off the cuff… I’ve got to run some more numbers. I’m open to other opinions on that (well, I’m open to opinions on everything I’ve posted here… that just happens to have only 5-10 minutes as opposed to hours behind it).
Reducing the cost of an item is balanced out by the need to pay more people to work on the item. The benefits only really show when you are making the really really expensive magical stuff.
Reducing the time to create the item is offset by the higher end price for creating the item (once more all those crafting assistants need to be paid).
Reducing XP cost is however one thing I am weary of, but is still balanced a little by, once again the extra cost of hiring all those craftsmen.
So for the PC's the costs are going to be increased pretty much regardless.
The real question of balance is whether it stacks with the benefits of the other feats. If the assistant increases your effective level prerequisites as well as reducing the cost or time then you have some real balance issues.
contemplating (thinking about considering the possibility of) using the schema stuff I posted earlier (or some modification on it if people have suggestions or I see something that really needs fixed) hammering out some manner of preliminary, unofficial, and entirely theoretical stats on something I've heard referred to as a "creation forge." not sure if this is a Bad Idea or not.
As an aside, it always irritated me in old editions of AD&D when there were flying castles and no reason why one wizard would give up adventuring to build it. In Eberron and with these feats we can see how a whole army of mage wrights got the job done and why it would be out of reach of one lone Artificer to do the same thing.
hrm. thought for monday.
yeah, ether, I've thought about the same thing for a long time. the feats also answer some questions about what spellcasters should do with the Leadership feat...
Prehaps there are specialized versions of those that can take bits of exp from multiple people as well as ingrediants. That sounds a lot like those forges the warforged were made from to me.
What about the eberronian golems. If i remember right there is a golem you can feed exp and ingredients too and it will produce magic item X.
your thinking of the Dedicated wright which is a homoculous not a golem.
As for the homunculous... could an advanced homunculous have some of these feats? That would sure come in handy in the lab.
Anyway you've got me thinking about some new ideas with this thread, so thanks!
I mean there is Vol and that Transmuter guy in Droam and the Twelve but they aren't all that helpful if they can help it. You'd have to steal high level stuff off of them.
Changing the nature of item creation in the game from mom&pop hame based casters to full industrialization would flood a market where most people can't afford a potion of cure light wounds when they break their arm.
And stacking spell-casters to make items is flooding a different market and puts a Paladin going down to the corner store and picking one of the five holy-avengers sitting on the rack. And choosing the one with the gemstone in the hilt that brings out the colour of his eyes.
I think this effort is excessive.
While its all fine and dandy to have a greater abundance of low-level magical items because of magewights, one of the central themes of Eberron is a lack of friendly or neutral NPCs to make said powerful magical items. I mean a level 12 NPC Artificer is probably extraordinarily rare and likely a major sicon of Cannith, and even he can't make the simplist of magical rings without wasting a feat. Even then, a single Artificer cannot account for all the magical items that House Cannith is reputed to churn out. Thus, these feats were developed in order to explain one possible way that House Cannith works.
Besides, it still costs experience/craft reserve to make magical items, and this is a natural limiter of creating them. Fine, they can make 25% more gp worth of magical items, maybe 35% more because of these feats (and such an advantage Cannith gets because of it's large number of employees). It's still a limit, and most of this experience probably goes towards making lower level items. You have to remember there is twice as many of those floating around ;)
See, the base of operations of House Cannith was Eston in (drumroll please)...Cyre!
So, its a reasonable assumption that all the most powerful artificers of House Cannith were killed on the day of Mourning. All that's left in Khorvaire are the less powerful peons. So while Cannith used to churn out all these cool items (hence they're "available" in the setting), they just can't do it "to order" anymore.
So the most powerful magical items (as well as all Rods, Staves and Rings) are no more common in Eberron than in any other setting.
I thought Ebberon had a shortage of highlevel (10th to 20th) items. Making holy-avengers and staves of power very hard to come by either being made in party or found.
There may be a shortage of people who could make those things now, but remember that there are 80,000 years of civilisations of people who could create all those high level things. Not to mention that in the thousand years of the Galifar empire there would be a few high level item creaters who could have made quite a few powerful things.
The difference between the typical campaign and Eberron is that Eberron at least tries to account for where all those magical items come from.
And remember, as Solaris stated, that Eberron is not about a lack of high level stuff in general, just a lack of high level friendly NPC's.
Changing the nature of item creation in the game from mom&pop hame based casters to full industrialization would flood a market where most people can't afford a potion of cure light wounds when they break their arm.
And stacking spell-casters to make items is flooding a different market and puts a Paladin going down to the corner store and picking one of the five holy-avengers sitting on the rack. And choosing the one with the gemstone in the hilt that brings out the colour of his eyes.
The way you say this make it sound like DarkerDreams is suggesting that every single magewright and artificer should get all these feats free at first level.
The market wont be flooded for the simple reason that there are not enough people out there with high enough levels to produce the factory like environments you are picturing.
You need around level 5 as an artificer to get the foreman feat and about 9th to get the Director feat. Now considering that even a 5th level is meant to be bordering rare I don't think that these feats alter the world balance at all. In fact they kinda add so much more because now you can say that The Master Craftsman (not just a master craftsman) of House Cannith is a 9th level artificer but still have an explaination of where those 12th level and above items come from.
Now these feats would be an issue somewhere like Forgotten realms where NPC's typically start around 10th level but not in Eberron where 5th level NPC's willing to help PC's are few and far between.
as for creating uber-craftsman, as others have said that isn't the least point here. These are feats balanced for player use but intended for NPCs, to explain how even in these times Cannith can hope to continue producing amazing magic.
It also lead, along with some comments from others, to the parallel progression of the schema idea I've relocated to the first post on this thread. I would appriciate any imput on the schema concept I've persued here (even if you think the idea is lousy).
again, thanks everyone!
Main "enchanter" Level 3 artificer. Caster level 3 +2 for being an artificer
3 Extran workers with the feat. Effective level +3 to the main enchanter
Total caster level 8th
But then I may be reading it wrong....
I had already had my NPCs doing things like this, and justified it with Rule 0, but it's great to see that it can be codified and balanced.
So in conclusion: beautiful, simply beautiful. Now if we can only get Keith to make these official or make official versions . . .
One tiny suggestion brough on by my initial confusion (and as such it may well just be me) but instead of having "Level 1 Greater Schema", Level 1 Greater Schema", etc. why not call them "Greater Schema: Circle", Greater Schema: Crescent", etc...
My confusion was mostly of the "wait a minute... I know you cannot craft a magic item that holds an Infusion ... but he talks about infusions in Lesser Schema and has the Greater Schema running from level 1 to 6..."
Again, maybe it is just me.
Plus I prefer Circle, Crrescent, Triangle, Diamond, Hexagon, Star over 1,2,3,4,5,6 - more evocative of the 'creative' process I imagine for magic items versus a the more purely mechanical processes of modern industry. And this (with or without name changes!
should be cannon.... Does anyone know if Keith has looked at this?I think I would link it to the Dragonmark of Making thereby linking the dragonmark and the House's major 'power'. Perhaps schema from Xen'drik had been known and used but it was only with the manifestation of the Dragonmark of Making that someone was able to truly understand how they were created and begin making schema of their own.
And absent that there really is no reason for House Cannith to exist and hold the power they do. Anyone can train an artificer or mage wright and they can then do everything someone with a Dragonmark of Making can do. On the other hand someone with the Dragonmark of Making is largely useless to House Cannith in terms of building and maintain their hold on the crafting arts unless they are trained as an Artificer/Mage Wright. As it stands the Dragonmark of Making is just color and does nothing to help Cannith maintain their status. In my campaign I added the Dragonmark of Making as a requirement to the Maester PrC (with its 'Quick Crafting' special ability) to justify House Cannith's position. I think I am going to add your Craft Schema feat with Dragonmark of Making as a requirement as well.
I think I will start a thread regarding how House Cannith maintains its status...
One tiny suggestion brough on by my initial confusion (and as such it may well just be me) but instead of having "Level 1 Greater Schema", Level 1 Greater Schema", etc. why not call them "Greater Schema: Circle", Greater Schema: Crescent", etc...
I'll probably go back later and add both as potential naming conventions in some way. I like the 1, 2, 3, etc because it clearly codifies things, however using the more discriptive naming is more flavorful.
You might also want to add a requirement of Dragonmark of Making and/or Favored in House (Cannith) for the Forge Schema feat. The books talk about it as if it is something that is the foundation of House Cannith's power and control over the creation of such goods so I would probably make it something that House Cannith holds as their greatest secret. Without it what is to stop any house from developing their own Schema (we know they all have their own artificers) and removing House Cannith's power/reason for existing.
There are other advantages to being a cannith member, including PrCs. My examples of PrCs stolen from other sources for eberronian use are here.
As for requiring mark of making to create schema; I don't like it. Cannith is an economic powerhouse because they spend their resources to create things like schema when other houses are building banks or ships. Lyrander may be able to train artificers, but their members tend to be better at being sailors- so why would they when they can buy from Cannith cheaper than they could build it themselves? bear in mind, there is capital expendature in creating schema, then expendature in building what you want... and capital expendature in getting an artificer trained. and who will train your artificer? cannith? if they do I have no doubt that you'll be paying for it.
I like the industrialization behind it. IE Building up sharn. It had to be built somehow. But i'm thinking the level addition shouldn't be such a steep curve with 1st level Artificiers. and most certainly magewrights should be in this as well. but i'm thinking the ratio should be like 1/4th of their level for a magewright and 1/2 level for Artificiers. So you're not getting a straight addition, unless i'm missing something.
So you have to have a MASSIVE amount of people working on the job just to make a +3 level modifier to your Artifice. I think SPACE alone isn't enough for a labratory. It should be Size + Value of the lab equipment, you'll get cheesy rules munchkins buying an empty warehouse without tools or anything just floorspace to make these items for almost no cost for 'floor space'. Yet another expense balance. Because honestly, getting a +4 level bonus to anything is going to be MAD expensive. and you're going to make most of your money back. If not profit from making and selling these items.
Yet another balance is making it so that you don't profit at all from making these high level items, thus reducing mass production even more. Being made solely for goodwill, or the safeguarding of a nation type stuff, not for profit and daily work. (to remove the fear of it being overproduced).
Overall, I like the idea. Its very similar to ritual/coop casting. It just makes sense in an Eberron world. But the balance has to be PROFIT vs. Level Bonus. Which in a way it is. But i have yet to see the actual math behind mass production of magical items function on the level i'm talking about. (or at least as plainly put out as Profit Vs. Level Bonus chart.)
Rath
for the work area, I've basically required that the additional people be housed in your work area so it has to meet certain requirements... as for not having tools, as much as I hate the answer, its magic- until someone can tell me what "tools" would be useful I'll assume the price is subsumed in the cost/effort of getting the workers and location.
as for the massive number of people; I curtailed that on pragmatics. there are vastly more 1st level magewrights and artificers in khorvair than most other worlds- however they are still a tiny percent of the population.
also, I've required that each person who wants to add more than 1 level to the level has to have a feat, plus the person in charge has to have 2... meaning these people have to be interested in doing this.
I've done examples, you're welcome to do more and prove me either right or wrong, but at the moment the results are showing that it's balanced without cutting the power more.
Of course, it may just be Etch Minor Schema, and then have a feat tree that follows up to Etch Schema, then Etch Major Schema, the next, 'special schema' tier being artifact level. I would use that, then replace the schemas with your variety.
One would have to think deeply on such a subject before implementing it...
My
-blarg
Craft Minor Schema (per MoE)
Craft Lesser Schema (per lesser schema in this thread)
Craft Schema (Per greater schema in this thread)
Craft Creation Pattern (per creation patterns in this thread)
Craft Greater Schema (per an idea I've had banging around the back of my head for an epic continuation of the schema progression. +ahem+ or something)
Craft Creation Forge...
hrm. i dunno. that's a lot of feats.
optionally, the feat in the MoE book could be expanded to allow the stuff I've written here, making the MoE schema the unwanted bastard-children of schema creation (which is why adventurers like them so much- kind calls kind!)
I echo all the others when I say that this is a great piece of work you have assembled here (and in your other linked posts). As a newcomer to Eberron, it is information like this that helps me make sense of how things 'work' there, and how to properly convey that sense to my players.
Many thanks again, and keep up the great work!!
How would staggering shifts work? For example, Artificer A and his 3 magewright assistants start work at midnight. Artificer B and his 3 assistants come in at 4:00 to assist in the work. At 8:00, Artificer C and his team come in to releave A and his team. At noon, D comes in to relieve B, and so forth. It's something that would never come up for PCs, but for NPCs it gives the 'round-the-clock feel of a truly industrialized workforce.
Also, has anyone considered making a prestige class that incorporates these feats? A 5-level class that gives all these feats (unless one or two are used as pre-reqs, which would make sense), and perhaps a trick or two stolen from the Exemplar class? If I weren't at work, I'd sketch something out real quick...
Excellent work, DarkerDreams. It never made sense to me that a single gnome would do all the magic associated with an airship while the rest of the workers were just making a physical shell. I prefered the image of several artificers working in tandem on it, and this is great.
Thanks. I completely agree, especially for Eberron- where there's supposed to be ths higher level of "industry" feel, but even in traditional settings we've all seen discriptions of workshops with dozens of workbenches with moderately skilled workers... doing what? in mechanics none of them would have been sufficiently powerful to do anything productive...
How would staggering shifts work? For example, Artificer A and his 3 magewright assistants start work at midnight. Artificer B and his 3 assistants come in at 4:00 to assist in the work. At 8:00, Artificer C and his team come in to releave A and his team. At noon, D comes in to relieve B, and so forth. It's something that would never come up for PCs, but for NPCs it gives the 'round-the-clock feel of a truly industrialized workforce.
I really don't think I'd considered that. my reflex is to disallow reductions in required workspace for game balance. allowing each shift to work on a different project but not to share focus. Though I suppose there's no real harm in allowing 3 shifts to share space, reducing the space needed and increasing the number of workers that can focus on a project in a given space/timeperiod. It would also allow "backup" workers- individuals that contribute bonuses above and beyond those needed, so if a random level 1 magewright dropped out/died/whatever the whole project wouldn't fall apart.
Also, has anyone considered making a prestige class that incorporates these feats? A 5-level class that gives all these feats (unless one or two are used as pre-reqs, which would make sense), and perhaps a trick or two stolen from the Exemplar class? If I weren't at work, I'd sketch something out real quick...
I hadn't even thought about that. kneejerk; 5 or 10 level class with an item creation feet per level along with craft reserve bumps...
I'll have to think.
Also, has anyone considered making a prestige class that incorporates these feats? A 5-level class that gives all these feats (unless one or two are used as pre-reqs, which would make sense), and perhaps a trick or two stolen from the Exemplar class? If I weren't at work, I'd sketch something out real quick...
my fault, I completely forgot that I'd already done that...
(yes, it is a rude little class- but, as I recall, almost directly cribbed from a cannon PrC for FR.)